Trumpocalypse Now

muddi900

Blasphemous Outlaw Ranger
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If you have not seen a death threat from a liberal, you have not been on the internet long enough. It is irrelevant what these people believe. The people who used to troll anime boards, or youtube comments, or tv show subreddits are now on twitter being dickbags about politics.

The great thing about the reaction to the civility opinion piece is that people are just using it as a license to be assholes. The irony being that the restaurant was completely civil in their action. They politely asked her to leave and said they will not serve her. That has got me thinking, though, why are Bush staffers not treated the same way.

For Example, David 'Axis of Evil' Frum is Senior Editor at The Atlantic. I doubt he has trouble getting service anywhere, despite having a 1000 degrees higher culpability in the deaths of 1000s than Sarah Sanders.
 

evilgoodwin

Abomination Unto Nuggan
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The biggest point people are bringing up is that the Conservatives are upset about a business refusing service to someone while, just weeks earlier, were proud that the Supreme Court upheld that a business could refuse service to a gay couple.

Like, Jesus. There are still kids being distributed around the US away from their parents with no documentation or plan to reunite them, and the biggest issue is about a restaurant.
 

digitalErich

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For Example, David 'Axis of Evil' Frum is Senior Editor at The Atlantic. I doubt he has trouble getting service anywhere, despite having a 1000 degrees higher culpability in the deaths of 1000s than Sarah Sanders.
Architects of the Iraq War will never face consequences. If I recall there was one single congresswoman against it at the time. It's a huge fuck up, but no one wants to point fingers less it comes back on them.

And it's pretty hard to go too hard on Bush when your benevolent Dem POTUS was busy drone tapping American citizens overseas and creating a large techno-security state.
 

digitalErich

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I also wish Ox was still around...I genuinely do no understand SCOTUS' decision to weigh religious remarks in CO Cakeshop decision but to disregard them in the travel ban case.

I'd like to believe the majority it's just deciding along party lines but these two decisions, so close to each other and so blatantly (to a layperson) invoking a double standard it's hard not to see it like that.
 
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I also wish Ox was still around...I genuinely do no understand SCOTUS' decision to weigh religious remarks in CO Cakeshop decision but to disregard them in the travel ban case.

I'd like to believe the majority it's just deciding along party lines but these two decisions, so close to each other and so blatantly (to a layperson) invoking a double standard it's hard not to see it like that.
It was decided upon accepting his contention that his cakes were works of art, and forcing artistic expression is the opposite of free speech. The baker was willing to sell them an off-the-shelf cake, he just wasn't willing to create a unique cake for their wedding. This was a very narrow ruling that applies to bespoke items and how the case was handled by the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. Here's what Kennedy wrote to help justify their opinion:

Anthony Kennedy said:
"Petitioners conceded, moreover, that if a baker refused to sell any goods or any cakes for gay weddings, that would be a different matter and the State would have a strong case under this Court's precedents that this would be a denial of goods and services that went beyond any protected rights of a baker who offers goods and services to the general public and is subject to a neutrally applied and generally applicable public accommodations law."
It's actually a fairly interesting question, and I don't know that there's a clear/easy answer. You can read through the opinions to get a more clear understanding, but it can be a bit daunting. You might get a pretty good understanding by simply reading through Thomas' and Ginsburg's concurring and dissenting opinions respectively starting on page 39 here: Masterpiece Cakeshop Opinion. I haven't read through all of it, but I've scanned those two opinions to see where they're both coming from. This and the travel ban are significantly different, which is why the opinions are different.
 

digitalErich

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Yeah, I browsed the dissenting opinion on the travel ban on my phone this morning and I think it was Sotomayor who questioned outright why the majority was ignoring Trump's clear Islamophobia but I was less familiar with the CO case.

I'll have to read more of it at home, but that line being drawn of what is and is not art there seems almost comically arbitrary. But I'm guessing (hoping) there's more nuance in there.

Edit: and thanks for the links
 
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I was apparently talking out of my ass before. I had no idea when I typed that reply that the travel ban was unconstitutionally ruled constitutional. I thought we were talking about the original ban when there was a stay put on it. I think the two are still quite different as one is about forcing someone to go against their religion to create art, and the other is simply to classify an entire religion as a threat to national security. The first one I can kind of agree with (I really don't think that's an easy one), and the second I think all religions should be classified as a threat to national security, but it's definitely unconstitutional to classify just one of them as such.

I hate this country so damn much. I keep trying to talk my wife into moving, but it's not all that easy to do since she actually cares about seeing her family, and the whole getting a job thing might be difficult.
 

Stoke

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Don't worry, at the rate this supreme court is going we'll be a completely different country in 10 years. Maybe that one will be better?
 

digitalErich

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The one (very small) crack of silver lining in the recent string of SCOTUS rulings will be that maybe the Dems will, one realize that judge appts (at all levels) are politics and start at least trying to complete with the GOP at their own game and two, maybe will stop fetishizing the SCOTUS as some moral, objective body. This "SCOTUS will save us" thing that's so prevalent in the center Left needed to stop more than a decade ago.
 

Stoke

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It's unlikely we'll get through the next six years of Trump without him appointing at least another SCOTUS judge so if the Dems ever get another chance I'd like to believe they'll be a little more inclined to blatantly tilt the court in their favor.
 

digitalErich

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He'll get to at least pick one appointment before that. The 5-4 court is about to become 6-3 for a looong time.

This a gift for red state GOP Senators. They were going to have to run against the fallout from Trump's tariffs, now judges will be top of mind and they can run on that.
 

digitalErich

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Even if it happens, they won't do it, but if Dems take the Senate they should block all Trump nominations. At every press conference they can just answer all questions with a recording of Mitch McConnell.
 

Stoke

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Oh cool, I didn't even have to wait two hours to have my worst fears come to pass.

EDIT: Anyone left still hanging onto the hope of impeachment just lost that. There's no way a GOP controlled supreme court would rule a GOP president can't pardon himself.
 

digitalErich

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While it obviously still sucks, I think Kennedy's credentials as a moderate are overstated. He went right on Citizens United and all subsequent decisions that weakened voting rights. A more right leaning justice in Kennedy's place can still do real damage around Roe and LGBT issues, but I still think overall this idea that this takes the court to a bad place is a failure to realize where the court already was.
 

Stoke

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The court was in a bad place. The court is still in a bad place but has now been locked in a cage inside that place for the next 20 years.
 

digitalErich

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And I don't mean to be callus, I understand what is at stake for people in certain situations. My point was just that the court was not going to magically save progressive politics in America before this. If you're left leaning and want to see change in the country, this does not alter the work that needs to be done on the level that ordinary people can have an impact.
 

digitalErich

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I think most of my posting today about Kennedy has been trying to convince myself this isn't as bad as the discourse would have us believe, but starting to lose that fight now that I'm reading some of the longer, more measured analyses.
 
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And I don't mean to be callus, I understand what is at stake for people in certain situations. My point was just that the court was not going to magically save progressive politics in America before this. If you're left leaning and want to see change in the country, this does not alter the work that needs to be done on the level that ordinary people can have an impact.
Oh, I didn't know you wrote for the New York Times. I look forward to reading your puff piece about how Joe Cornbrrad in Kansas feels about Kennedy retiring.
 

digitalErich

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SCOTUS held up Korematsu as legal, basically for decades. SCOTUS has been on the wrong side of civil rights plenty of times; it's not obstacle not a conclusion.

I'm not saying this isn't bad, but please tell me how valuable defeatist "we're all fucked" is as a game plan. I'm all ears.
 
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digitalErich

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This "end of the world" stuff I see around this news is why I have less confidence in this blue wave, or of Dems learning any lessons from Trump. Treating this as the end of the world betrays this idea that SCOTUS is this great, objective arbiter that, while they sometimes fuck up, will overall lead us in the Right Direction. It's the "arc of history bends towards justice" thinking...both bullshit.

SCOTUS and the courts are political bodies and you have to fight for and over them. The GOP internalized this decades ago; it's why Trump has filled 50/100 or something similar judicial vacancies that were vacancies under Obama.

McConnell, when Hilary was a "lock", gestured towards considering blocking the last appointment for another 4 years. Measure that against Dem responses today. The GOP will continue to beat the shit out of the Dems in this area and the best the Dems can do is ask politely that they at least wear gloves.
 
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MagGnome

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I hate this country so damn much. I keep trying to talk my wife into moving, but it's not all that easy to do since she actually cares about seeing her family, and the whole getting a job thing might be difficult.
My boyfriend and I have talked about moving as well, and of course in light of Kennedy retiring we have once again been discussing it. However he's much closer to his family than I am, and of course "moving to Canada" (or wherever) is far easier said that done.

With that said, if Obergefell v. Hodges or Lawrence v. Texas is overturned, then I am out. It's bad enough that I feel unsafe in 80+% of my own country, but to go back to second class status would be the last straw. At least I'm a white guy who can pass as "normal" most of the time. :/
 

Exodus

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At the rate of political outrage shown by the populace in canada and merica I feel like thought policing is going to be a real thing in a couple decades. Well thankfully he won't get a second term and maybe we can avoid that.
 

muddi900

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Canada does not have the resources to get the influx of American refugees. Because that's what will happen. Especially if Lawrence vs Texas is overturned.
 

MagGnome

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Canada does not have the resources to get the influx of American refugees. Because that's what will happen. Especially if Lawrence vs Texas is overturned.
You're probably right about that. Many of my gay friends have also discussed moving to Canada if the political climate worsens, and I know two couples who did so back before same-sex marriage was legalized. They've stayed there and love it. But if I mention the possibility of emigrating to straight friends, many of them get upset and say that I should "stay and fight". It's an interesting dichotomy.
 

Exodus

Bully Hunter
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You're probably right about that. Many of my gay friends have also discussed moving to Canada if the political climate worsens, and I know two couples who did so back before same-sex marriage was legalized. They've stayed there and love it. But if I mention the possibility of emigrating to straight friends, many of them get upset and say that I should "stay and fight". It's an interesting dichotomy.
What do they mean stay and fight? take part in the dog and pony political theatre that passes for intrigue in NA?

I mean after this I could see voter turn out being pretty high for the next election that's for sure but how many more years are there left with this guy? 2? Maybe he does so much damage the pendulum will shift the other way.
 

digitalErich

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You're probably right about that. Many of my gay friends have also discussed moving to Canada if the political climate worsens, and I know two couples who did so back before same-sex marriage was legalized. They've stayed there and love it. But if I mention the possibility of emigrating to straight friends, many of them get upset and say that I should "stay and fight". It's an interesting dichotomy.
Fuck ppl that don't have skin in the game, I say make a plan, at the very least the exercise might ease some stress levels. 3/4 of my family have dual citizenship and we've already discussed when and how fast we'd choose to exercise that advantage. However unlikely it may or may not be (for us, we're probably less vulnerable than yourself, maybe), talking a plan through at any level that above day dreaming helps a bit.
 

MagGnome

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What do they mean stay and fight? take part in the dog and pony political theatre that passes for intrigue in NA?

I mean after this I could see voter turn out being pretty high for the next election that's for sure but how many more years are there left with this guy? 2? Maybe he does so much damage the pendulum will shift the other way.
Hopefully voter turnout surges and we can get some election reforms passed despite a right-leaning Supreme Court.

Fuck ppl that don't have skin in the game, I say make a plan, at the very least the exercise might ease some stress levels. 3/4 of my family have dual citizenship and we've already discussed when and how fast we'd choose to exercise that advantage. However unlikely it may or may not be (for us, we're probably less vulnerable than yourself, maybe), talking a plan through at any level that above day dreaming helps a bit.
I agree. Having a backup plan, so to speak, is a great idea. I've been pushing my boyfriend to get his passport, which he is finally going to do this month. We've been discussing other steps we might take as well. I don't think we're on the verge of becoming Nazi Germany like some on the left are proclaiming, but things are certainly heading backwards and there are any number of ways in which they could quickly become worse.
 
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