Battlestar Galactica 4.11 (Jan 16) [Spoilers]

[BlackPete]

Yeah that angle about the 13th tribe being all cylon was a pretty big loop... I imagine Roslin probably wanted to follow Dee to the grave after that revelation!

I can imagine that the double shock of Earth being a wasteland, and the 13th tribe being cylons would be enough to unhinge anyone because that's all they had to go on to keep surviving.

[zarathstra]

Does that mean...I'm a Cylon?

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

Thinking on it a bit more, the whole "Earth was populated by Cylons" dealie adds evidence to the theory that EVERYONE is descended from Cylons. A long, long, long time ago the first humans created Toasters, who fought the humans then created Fleshjobs, who evolved to believe they were humans then created new Toasters, who repeated the cycle.

Except the thirteenth tribe and the current skinjobs are biologically identical, and both are biologically distinct from the humans, otherwise the cylon tests wouldn't be able to distinguish between cylon skeletons and human skeletons.

[Ink Asylum]

An explanation for that is the Earth-Cylons are at the same stage in the Toaster-Fleshjob-Human "evolution" cycle as the current Fleshjobs. If the modern Fleshjobs had succeeded in wiping out Humanity then continued to improve and possibly eventually breed it is likely they would have reached a point where they were biologically distinct from their current incarnation.

In this theory look at the Fleshjobs as Apes to our Humans. If Apes killed all Humans then left the planet, evolved to the point where they were Humans, forgot they were once Apes, then came back to Earth and discovered the remains of Apes, they wouldn't realize they were related.

[zarathstra]

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

An explanation for that is the Earth-Cylons are at the same stage in the Toaster-Fleshjob-Human "evolution" cycle as the current Fleshjobs. If the modern Fleshjobs had succeeded in wiping out Humanity then continued to improve and possibly eventually breed it is likely they would have reached a point where they were biologically distinct from their current incarnation.

In this theory look at the Fleshjobs as Apes to our Humans. If Apes killed all Humans then left the planet, evolved to the point where they were Humans, forgot they were once Apes, then came back to Earth and discovered the remains of Apes, they wouldn't realize they were related.

Evolution doesn't really work that way...

[Stoke]

If you believe what was said about the last supper picture released a while ago, Starbuck can't be the fifth. Moore said the last cylon was not in the picture so whatever is going on with her right now seems to be something else. Of course, that could have changed but it looks like Helen is the best candidate right now.

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Stoke

If you believe what was said about the last supper picture released a while ago, Starbuck can't be the fifth. Moore said the last cylon was not in the picture so whatever is going on with her right now seems to be something else. Of course, that could have changed but it looks like Helen is the best candidate right now.

And it also makes sense in that the empty glass is next to Tigh.

Shes the last cylon, which leaves the real questions: What the hell is Starbuck and whats with Baltar's head people? Neither of them are cylons, yet they've both done crazy crap. Starbuck being ressurrected and Baltar knowing things he shouldn't have known via people only he can see. Of course Caprica Six also has head people and one would assume theres a connection since Head Baltar is the same for both of them.

[Stoke]

I'm hoping it doesn't dip into time travel or something like that to explain the five or Starbuck. The repeated mentioning of "2000 years" has me a little worried.

[Siraris]

The only explanation is that they are all Cylons.

How else do you explain Starbuck?

That's the whole big ending. They fought for all this time over Human vs. Cylon, and they are all the same species.

[MalReynolds]

so is it starbuck or Tie's wife ? all i wanna know

[Siraris]

Originally Posted by MalReynolds

so is it starbuck or Tie's wife ? all i wanna know

I doubt it, and if she is, it would be really disappointing. Based on what we saw (Ty, Chief etc.) all looked the same in the flashback as they did presently. It would be pretty incongruous to have Starbuck be Ellen (especially since she was alive when Ellen was), go to Earth, crash land and die, and then be resurrected instantly as Starbuck and not Ellen. It just makes too little sense.

It makes much more sense that they are all Cylons.

[MalReynolds]

all cylons is what im goin with

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Siraris

The only explanation is that they are all Cylons.

How else do you explain Starbuck?

That's the whole big ending. They fought for all this time over Human vs. Cylon, and they are all the same species.

But cylons and humans are distinctly different, they came out and said it. The bones were all cylon bones, which means theres a difference between the two. Not to mention cylons can interface with computers directly and the rest of it.

They have a common and intertwined history that goes beyond what everyone knows, but they aren't the same species. Humans can't interface with machines or come back to life after death. Cylons can do all sorts of things humans can't as well (shared memories, etc).

So that theory doesn't work on any level.

I think its more along the lines of:

The Lords of Kobal left the planet to found the 12 colonies. At that point they had cylons, who went and colonized Earth. Someone killed the 13th tribe, probably humans. A very few survived and were somehow responsible for the current incarnation of cylons. Those cylons went and killed off the humans. Now there are humans and cylons looking for a new home to colonize (just like the Lords did so long ago). So its sort of a cycle. Humans kill the cylons, cylons kill the humans, both found new worlds, one kills the other and vice versa and then they found new worlds and it all starts over again.

Its not likely to be something as simple as "Humans and cylons are the same thing." They've proven time and again that they aren't. So far the show hasn't contradicted itself and its well thought out, so that answer doesn't make any sense at all given everything we've been shown up until now.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by zarathstra

Evolution doesn't really work that way...

We're also talking about robot evolution, here, so it can work however the writers intend.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by ShivaX

But cylons and humans are distinctly different, they came out and said it. The bones were all cylon bones, which means theres a difference between the two. Not to mention cylons can interface with computers directly and the rest of it.

There's also a difference between Toasters and Fleshjobs, yet one created, or evolved into, the other. We still have no idea how Cylons went from Toasters to Fleshjobs. Did they just build better and better robots?

BSG Humans can knock up Fleshjobs, so they're pretty close in physiology even if there's some difference they were able to detect in the bones they found. Humans and Fleshjobs even have linked dreams. Whatever difference there is between current Fleshjobs and Humans doesn't rule out Humans being some more refined version of older Fleshjobs, one that has all but completely left behind its robot origins and is now completely biological.

I still stand by my theory that the "all this has happened before and all will happen again" is Humans creating Toasters which create Fleshjobs which become Humans which create Toasters, etc.

[Crittias]

Dee picked up the jacks in the sand right before she freaked out, just like whats-his-name picked up the guitar, and Tigh found the remains of the bank, and Chief found his scorched shadow. Might she have suddenly had a memory of living on Earth, just like they did?

[GigaFuzz]

Originally Posted by Crittias

Dee picked up the jacks in the sand right before she freaked out, just like whats-his-name picked up the guitar, and Tigh found the remains of the bank, and Chief found his scorched shadow. Might she have suddenly had a memory of living on Earth, just like they did?

It's possible. It may just have been 'Aww damn, there were children playing here!', which was the way I took it, but I hadn't thought of it your way. That's interesting.

[Siraris]

Originally Posted by Crittias

Dee picked up the jacks in the sand right before she freaked out, just like whats-his-name picked up the guitar, and Tigh found the remains of the bank, and Chief found his scorched shadow. Might she have suddenly had a memory of living on Earth, just like they did?

I think that was just symbolism. Perhaps something to do with destruction of innocence, or something as simple as taking back a souvenir.

[Crittias]

Originally Posted by GigaFuzz

It's possible. It may just have been 'Aww damn, there were children playing here!', which was the way I took it, but I hadn't thought of it your way. That's interesting.

You are likely right, but given how sudden an unexpected her suicide was, I started rethinking her actions earlier in the episode.

[BlackPete]

Originally Posted by Crittias

You are likely right, but given how sudden an unexpected her suicide was, I started rethinking her actions earlier in the episode.

I thought the same thing, but then again Adama himself wanted to commit suicide by pushing Tigh into killing him, so... I dunno. I can certainly understand Adama and Roslin being pretty fucked up right now since they'd been leading people on with the hope of returning to Earth and All Will Be Good. Morale has got to be at an all time low and Dee basically had nobody so she wanted to go out with a bang while happy.

"Frak Earth" indeed.