In Other News...July 10

[Shieldmaiden]

I'd really like to know the difference between Penny Arcade using Kickstarter and Double Fine using it. They're both existing companies with staff who need to be paid. They both want to try shifting to an alternative business model where they're funded directly by their audience, which will allow them more freedom to make the stuff that their audience wants. Neither of them actually need to do this, they've both existed for years with a more traditional business model.

In fact, the only major difference that I can see is that Double Fine want your money to fund a product that they're then going to sell and make more money from, while Penny Arcade want your money to fund stuff that they're going to give away to everyone for free.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by MagGnome

However, when I see things like the new Penny Arcade Kickstarter I want to pull my hair out. That seems like an abuse of the system. Of course calling out PA will bring their endless legion of fanboys out to scream and shout me down, so I'll try to bite my tongue.

If you're going to be upset at anyone, then, you should be upset at Kickstarter. Penny-Arcade had talks with the guys who run the site and got approval from them before putting up their page.

I'd really like to know the difference between Penny Arcade using Kickstarter and Double Fine using it. They're both existing companies with staff who need to be paid. They both want to try shifting to an alternative business model where they're funded directly by their audience, which will allow them more freedom to make the stuff that their audience wants. Neither of them actually need to do this, they've both existed for years with a more traditional business model.

Lost in all the talk of ads, Penny-Arcade spends a lot of time and effort making comics for video game companies, when they'd much rather be making comics like Lookouts and Automata. Similarly, Double Fine could probably have gotten funding to make some licensed game for a publisher, but instead they went straight to fans to get funding for the kind of game their fans want.

When creative people can replace advanced funding from big businesses with advanced funding from fans, that means more of the content fans want.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by Widgetcraft

Fantastic, more DLC that no one cares about because the multiplayer is both horribly shitty, and extremely shallow. I never thought I'd complain about free DLC, but Bioware has managed to squeeze that out of me with their shitty little horde mode knock-off.

Rumor has it that they'll be announcing the first story DLC (ignoring the extended cut ending) at Comic-Con.

[Spigot]

Originally Posted by Widgetcraft

Might just be the PC, but I find it unplayable, outright. Just getting into a game is a near impossible task, and when you do the connection is shit. Between people not starting games, or booting anyone who isn't their friend, or the fact that 90% of people will leave two rounds in... it's just not worth touching, period. Maybe if I had friends to play it with, but my friends opted to skip it as they aren't fans of the franchise.

I've only played on the PC... Odd.

I will admit that at times, it was VERY hard to find a game that didn't keep kicking me (or that didn't have ONE guy sitting there with his ready button not pressed) but those were the exception, not the norm. Not sure how it is now, as I really haven't played it since April.

I didn't have a lot of issues with people dropping out mid-game, though it did happen from time to time too. Who knows. Maybe I just got lucky by playing it during that first month or so when there were still a lot of players, but I had a blast with it. Of course, maybe it's because I'm a fan of the series and haven't played a ton of Horde Mode in other games that let me be more forgiving of the flaws, but it clicked quite nicely for me.

Originally Posted by BigJonno

I'd really like to know the difference between Penny Arcade using Kickstarter and Double Fine using it. They're both existing companies with staff who need to be paid. They both want to try shifting to an alternative business model where they're funded directly by their audience, which will allow them more freedom to make the stuff that their audience wants. Neither of them actually need to do this, they've both existed for years with a more traditional business model.

In fact, the only major difference that I can see is that Double Fine want your money to fund a product that they're then going to sell and make more money from, while Penny Arcade want your money to fund stuff that they're going to give away to everyone for free.

I think you've summed it up nicely.

I can understand why people are getting a little leery about this... hell, I'm kind of annoyed that every other day I see what CAN amount to the digital equivalent of a bunch of people sitting on the corner begging for change for their pet project.

That being said, would I feel better about helping to fund (directly) something made by DoubleFine or PA (Hell, I was a member of their old donation drive back in the day, of which I agree that this is really just a larger extension) than, say, something that may be attacked by the sun.

[Spigot]

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

Lost in all the talk of ads, Penny-Arcade spends a lot of time and effort making comics for video game companies, when they'd much rather be making comics like Lookouts and Automata.

I was looking at the KS page last night and kind of on the fence a bit, but when I saw Gabe's tweet that more Automata would be a stretch goal, concider me a backer.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by Spigot

I can understand why people are getting a little leery about this... hell, I'm kind of annoyed that every other day I see what CAN amount to the digital equivalent of a bunch of people sitting on the corner begging for change for their pet project.

I don't understand why people are leery about this. It's a transaction between fans and creators, and a much more direct one than the perpetually loathed advertising model. Adblockers are popular for a reason, here's a model that will make them unnecessary, and even if you contribute zero dollars you stand to benefit.

If it fails, Penny-Arcade will continue in its present form. If it succeeds, everyone, backers and non-backers, get a cleaner site and more content. What's the downside?

[Suave Peanut]

I don't understand it either. I donate to sites I like all the time, these guys just happen to be organizing it through Kickstarter instead of a PayPal donate button or ChipIn widget. I honestly see no difference.

[Spigot]

Leery might not have been the best word...

I think it's because originally it seemed like Kickstarter was the place to go when you were too small to find funding anywhere else, so you could cobble together some microdonations and actually fund your little vanity project or neat idea without having to sell your soul to VCs or remortgage your house.

Because it has been rather successful (esp. post DoubleFine), we're now seeing established entities using it. This means, in some houses, that the little guys are losing mindshare and possible donations to the people who already are established.

I honestly don't mind it myself, beyond just getting fatigued at seeing the word Kickstarter used so often

Of course, I'm really surprised that nobody has posted this:

[DoctorFinger]

The complaints in a nut shell:

- Some believe that there's a limited pool of Kickstarter donations out there. By starting a campaign, PA is hurting other projects that actually need the donations.

- They're launching a campaign which will offer little to no benefit to the greater public, ie, there's no game or product for folks to buy a year or 2 down the road if it's a success.

- PA has mocked Kickstarter before, and therefor they're hypocrites.

- People hate anything successful, so they hate PA

I don't really subscribe to any of these, but they're what people seem to be most upset about

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by Spigot

I think it's because originally it seemed like Kickstarter was the place to go when you were too small to find funding anywhere else, so you could cobble together some microdonations and actually fund your little vanity project or neat idea without having to sell your soul to VCs or remortgage your house.

Because it has been rather successful (esp. post DoubleFine), we're now seeing established entities using it. I honestly don't mind it myself, beyond just getting fatigued at seeing the word Kickstarter used so often

So it's the equivalent of an indie band going mainstream?

Successful creators that rely on advertising may not be selling their soul, but they still have to make concessions to keep that money coming in. Businesses want something in return from creators, and that's usually fan attention, click-throughs, etc. So creators have to serve two audiences with different, and sometimes conflicting, desires.

Why not go straight to your fans, when what they want is specifically what you actually want to be doing with your time and attention? How is that not a better system for everyone?

I'm of the belief that DoubleFine and other companies have drawn in many more people to the Kickstarter way of thinking than they've distracted from smaller projects. They're taking a big slice of the backer pie, but the pie is much larger because of all the people they brought into the model.

Of course, I'm really surprised that nobody has posted this:

There's also this one.

[Shieldmaiden]

Originally Posted by DoctorFinger

- Some believe that there's a limited pool of Kickstarter donations out there. By starting a campaign, PA is hurting other projects that actually need the donations.

- They're launching a campaign which will offer little to no benefit to the greater public, ie, there's no game or product for folks to buy a year or 2 down the road if it's a success.

These are the two I've been picking up on and I don't really understand the thinking behind either of them. There isn't a fixed amount of money for Kickstarter projects and I doubt very much that anyone is suddenly going to throw money at Penny Arcade instead of anything else. Unless I'm completely wrong and the majority of Kickstarter money comes from people who scour the site looking for random shit to give money to.

The second complaint is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face for being stupid and entitled.

[violent]

Originally Posted by BigJonno

The second complaint is the kind of thing that makes me want to punch people in the face for being stupid and entitled.

I don't think it's a false sense of entitlement when someone donates money and expects some sort of result, not just a promise of result.

[Suave Peanut]

Why can't I donate with no expectation of results? That's why it's a donation and not a purchase. If I see a band I like and I drop some money into their tip jar, I'm not going to feel entitled that they should make another record.

[Spigot]

Originally Posted by violent

I don't think it's a false sense of entitlement when someone donates money and expects some sort of result, not just a promise of result.

But in this case they've been INCREDIBLY transparent as to a) why they're asking for the money they're asking for and b) exactly what that money will get.

If anything, you're paying to turn off the banner ads and such. The fact means that this will then result in the various stretch goal bonuses, like more Lookouts and Automata, etc. DOES indicate that there is a result, both tangible (in the form of the new content) and ephemeral (no ad clutter, no PA having to do corporate work to keep the lights on, etc.).

And that's the result. Just because you can't pick it up and fondle it doesn't make it any less legitimate than someone trying to raise money on KS for their new initiative to take plaster casts of the big toes of famous people.

It does make me chuckle to see that comic about Gabe's KS page though. I forgot about that one...

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by Spigot

It does make me chuckle to see that comic about Gabe's KS page though. I forgot about that one...

I like that he brought the "yell your name really loud while chasing a duck" reward to the real Kickstarter.

[Spigot]

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

I like that he brought the "yell your name really loud while chasing a duck" reward to the real Kickstarter.

Yeah. Only it only costs a buck to get him to do that now, right?

I feel bad for his wife though. He's going to have to have a giant mural of names to hang over his bed to read whilst having marital relations

[Widgetcraft]

Originally Posted by Kelegacy

Would you like to Kickstart my retirement? I mean, I could go to work to make money and put a percentage into a 403b account but I'd rather have others do it for me if they are willing.

Goal is $1mil with special tiers for donation. Highest donation gets a lunch with me and the option to accompany me to the Porch dealership for a test drive.

Porch dealership? Does the test drive involve sitting in a rocking chair?

[Shieldmaiden]

Originally Posted by violent

I don't think it's a false sense of entitlement when someone donates money and expects some sort of result, not just a promise of result.

Penny Arcade produces stuff for free. Everything they produce as a result of this Kickstarter will be available for free. Getting annoyed with someone because they're asking for donations to support something they give away for free is just about the most entitled behaviour I can think of.

[violent]

Originally Posted by Spigot

But in this case they've been INCREDIBLY transparent as to a) why they're asking for the money they're asking for and b) exactly what that money will get.

If anything, you're paying to turn off the banner ads and such. The fact means that this will then result in the various stretch goal bonuses, like more Lookouts and Automata, etc. DOES indicate that there is a result, both tangible (in the form of the new content) and ephemeral (no ad clutter, no PA having to do corporate work to keep the lights on, etc.).

And that's the result. Just because you can't pick it up and fondle it doesn't make it any less legitimate than someone trying to raise money on KS for their new initiative to take plaster casts of the big toes of famous people.

It does make me chuckle to see that comic about Gabe's KS page though. I forgot about that one...

I think that is where the line is drawn is my point. Some think that something tangible should come from donations. If not, it looks like begging. Obviously those willing to donate are fans and would never see it that way.

Nothing surprising about the split between perceptions on the matter.

Originally Posted by BigJonno

Penny Arcade produces stuff for free. Everything they produce as a result of this Kickstarter will be available for free. Getting annoyed with someone because they're asking for donations to support something they give away for free is just about the most entitled behaviour I can think of.

Penny Arcade is a business. They sell books, they sell merchandise, they sell tickets. Their webcomics are free. They have income and they can support their hosting through advertising and sales. If they went this year with the old model, we would be in the same exact place next year, so yeah, if they are asking people to donate directly to them, it's not crazy that some would expect a result. It's the fundamental purpose of Kickstarter to begin with. Kickstart a project, not a platform for donations to better your site.

Personally, I think they should have done this directly through their site.

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by violent

I think that is where the line is drawn is my point. Some think that something tangible should come from donations. If not, it looks like begging. Obviously those willing to donate are fans and would never see it that way.

Nothing surprising about the split between perceptions on the matter.

I understand and support anyone's perception of what a transaction should be. What I don't understand is why anyone would get upset by other people seeing it a different way and spending their money as they see fit.

The level of rage is like seeing someone give a dollar to a sidewalk busker and running up to yell at them for doing so. No one has to participate in this model if they don't want to. They'll even benefit from the actions of those that do. Why complain?

Penny Arcade is a business. They sell books, they sell merchandise, they sell tickets. Their webcomics are free. They have income and they can support their hosting through advertising and sales. If they went this year with the old model, we would be in the same exact place next year, so yeah, if they are asking people to donate directly to them, it's not crazy that some would expect a result. It's the fundamental purpose of Kickstarter to begin with. Kickstart a project, not a platform for donations to better your site.

These two statements contradict. If the site will be improved by the results of the Kickstarter campaign then people donating will get a result.

Personally, I think they should have done this directly through their site.

Why? That would require hiring people to handle the process, when there's a perfectly functional system set up to do so.