PA Judge throws out harassment charge of Zombie Mohammed

[Ink Asylum]

You have much more faith in your fellow man than I do. Would you want an average sampling of the local population deciding your fate on those terms should you end up in court one day?

[Ox]

Parties can indeed ask for a change in venue, but you have to show that it's practically impossible to find 12 people in this venue who can be fair. It's a Diogenes lamp situation, and it's extremely hard to win.

What Serapth asks for essentially already exists: it's called jury nullification or "the exercise of discretion" when a judge does it. I know of a recent case in Philadelphia where a drunk asshole disrupted a wake. The deceased's teenage sons chased the guy outside and whupped his ass. Judge threw the prosecution out.

Of course, they weren't charged with assault. They were charged with murder. I can name you half a dozen famous cases in Pennsylvania alone where a single punch caused death in the victim. Often, the victim spent his last conscious moments saying obnoxious things.

I agree that physical attacks are a great deterrent to mouthy assholes. Ditto summary execution (which is what a fistfight often becomes, movies notwithstanding). The issue is whether even incredibly offensive speech warrants a penalty that can easily cause serious injury or death. I argue that obnoxiousness is not a good enough reason to gamble with a man's life or health, but I might be biased as an extremely obnoxious person myself.

[Hawkzombie]

I would. Because on the whole while I hate humanity, I know MOST are decent folks with a strong (not invincible) moral fiber/code. And while the system is broken, until someone comes along with something better I continue to believe in it.

And I confuse myself a lot of the time as well. I'm Canadian now and dunno how it really works up here as opposed to down in the states

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

You have much more faith in your fellow man than I do. Would you want an average sampling of the local population deciding your fate on those terms should you end up in court one day?

Think about it ink, under the current system I am always guilty. Under this proposed system, I have the *possibility* of being vindicated/acquitted.


Plus of course, I could always leave my fate in the hands of a judge.



I mean, if 12 Angry Men taught me anything, it's that Tony Danza is a really shitty actor.

[Hawkzombie]

Originally Posted by Ox

I agree that physical attacks are a great deterrent to mouthy assholes. Ditto summary execution (which is what a fistfight often becomes, movies notwithstanding). The issue is whether even incredibly offensive speech warrants a penalty that can easily cause serious injury or death. I argue that obnoxiousness is not a good enough reason to gamble with a man's life or health, but I might be biased as an extremely obnoxious person myself.

Honestly, bitchslapping is what I would be ok with in a civilized society.

"YER MOTHER'S A WHORE!"
*Bitchslaps* Ruffian!

[Ink Asylum]

Originally Posted by Serapth

Think about it ink, under the current system I am always guilty. Under this proposed system, I have the *possibility* of being vindicated/acquitted.

Of course, under the proposed system, you and those you care about could be wrongfully assaulted and the perpetrator could be acquitted by a jury sympathetic to his judgment of your behavior. I guess if you're willing to take that gamble...

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by Ox

I agree that physical attacks are a great deterrent to mouthy assholes. Ditto summary execution (which is what a fistfight often becomes, movies notwithstanding). The issue is whether even incredibly offensive speech warrants a penalty that can easily cause serious injury or death. I argue that obnoxiousness is not a good enough reason to gamble with a man's life or health, but I might be biased as an extremely obnoxious person myself.

Granted, I don't live in murderland... er, Philli, but I have witnessed far too many fights in my life, not a single one of them ending in death. Even the US murder rate seems to agree, assuming a fist is a "blunt object"




So, while one punch murders certainly occur, they don't seem to be an epidemic. If death was so common from hitting, the UFC certainly wouldn't exist.

[MagGnome]

Originally Posted by Ink Asylum

Yup, so would you want to make it even easier for people to beat up others and get off scott free by claiming they were offended or insulted?

Ah, the good ol' "gay panic" defense. -_-

[Hawkzombie]

Originally Posted by MagGnome

Ah, the good ol' "gay panic" defense. -_-

Panic?!

FIRE IN THE DISCO!

[Ultima Thulian]

FIRE in the Taco Bell!

This thread just got awesome; nothing beats Electric Six.

[MagGnome]

That video is hilarious. I want a jockstrap that lights up like that!

[Panthera]

The light on the moose is really the pièce de résistance.

[MagGnome]

Yes, that really got me rolling.

[bean]

Originally Posted by BigJonno

Why should physical abuse be illegal, but mental abuse be classified as "being a dick"?

By mental abuse, do you mean the verbal abuse of a child? That is illegal. Adults are expected to be emotionally hardy enough to be able to deal with people who are being obnoxious. If someone is being obnoxious, you make a choice how to react to it. If a person chooses to become angry, and then chooses to act upon that anger violently, then this means a person was not taught how to control their emotions or behavior, so the state has to step in and correct them.

Plus, everyone is a "dick" on occasion. Sometimes people are obnoxious without meaning to be due to misunderstandings. Other times, they've had a bad day and misplace anger or they simply overreact and regret it later. Often someone being a jerk is communicating that they are insecure and need this as a defense mechanism to keep people away and unable to hurt them.

Having said that, if you manufactured a set of circumstances where a person cannot get away from an obnoxious person. . . for example, you are stuck in an elevator with a guy who decides to tell offensive jokes even though you told him not to, but he does so anyway for hours. Maybe he sings poorly to himself, despite you asking him to be quite, and then finally, out of boredom he whips it out and starts rubbing one out while looking at you lecherously. . . now, there is no getting away from this person. I could absolutely see letting a guy off the hook for punching a guy being this obnoxious. However, if someone has the ability to walk away and instead they choose violence, then they need to be forced to go to therapy while on probation or, if they did serious harm to their victim, they need to go to prison to keep society safe from them while they get therapy to learn to control their emotions and behavior.

[Vigil80]

I can agree with that on a very basic level, I suppose. But I think all that very much assumes that the "obnoxiousness" is occasional or incidental. I feel that long term, directed, or particularly hostile dickosity means Mr. Manus has to step in and correct them, the state be damned. Much like the Buzz Aldrin example.

I should admit that I've never been able to buy the "just walk away" approach in all situations. If that opens me up to labeling as a violent person in need of therapy, so be it. Is walking away the best choice most of the time? Probably, especially if it's something petty and dumb. Like most bar fights, for instance. But sometimes it's worth remembering, hey, I've got at least as much right to be here as anyone.

[bean]

Originally Posted by Vigil80

But sometimes it's worth remembering, hey, I've got at least as much right to be here as anyone.

The choices aren't just "walk away" or fight. I said that before because that is the last choice if non-violent conflict resolution doesn't work.

You can explain how someone's actions are negatively effecting others, reason with them (Is your behavior really going to result in you achieving your goal?), or get an authority figure to deal with them (tell your server, someone in security, a manager, or even call the police). A very effective way to resolve conflicts with "dicks" is to disarm them by being a genuinely friendly person and then asking them nicely to stop.

That's usually the problem when someone is being a dick. They are in a place in their head where they are not respecting strangers, so if you make yourself not a stranger, they'll collect themselves and behave.