The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim thread

[Grifter]

Originally Posted by Xydarc

Compared to what? Skyrim's combat is no better or no worse than any other action RPG. Skyrim's magic system is big improvement over Oblivion's and better than some other games.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

I'd have to disagree with you there, there are plenty of RPGs out there with much better melee combat than the Elder Scrolls games. Some more recent examples would be Dark Souls/Demon's Souls, The Whitcher 2, and even Two Worlds 2's combat feels a bit tighter and more substantial, if only slightly. I think the core mechanics are fine it's just the combat feed back and animations that need work. I like to be able to feel my hits in a game and with Oblivion and Skyrim most of your melee attacks just slide right through the enemy like you're fighting water.

There needs to be some kind of animated recourse on your characters part when a blow is landed and it needs to vary based on the type of blow it was. The reaction animations of the enemies need a bit of work as well. I believe I said this in my initial impressions of the game but if Skyrim had a lock on feature it would go a long way in making the combat feel tighter and more intense and less sloppy and loose. It's not as bad if you fight with a shield because that style lends itself better to a slower block, attack, block method of fighting and when you block an attack the feed back is nice and heavy based on the type of attack you've blocked.

[Narradisall]

Originally Posted by Wolvie

No doubt, I started fast traveling last night with the insane notion that I just wanted to 'get things over with.' I then knew I needed to take a step back, get some rest. That and things were starting to wear on me. Like a chore, like a job.

I find it starts to wear on you after a while.

I mean I've done 110 odd hours and I started to get a "I should just start hitting those main quests and get it over with".

Instead I think I'll take a break and play it less (well back to work next week so it's not much of a choice).

Skyrim overload kinda takes away the essence of what you're playing a "lets dick around as much as possible" game for.

[ClannerDelta]

Originally Posted by Exodus

I think the combat system just sucks. The perks for 2 handed for instance are for the most part passive. The only visually appealing move whatsoever is the sprint attack. The others are just additional RNG chances of additional effects to your movement + attack. I think it has to do with how archaic their animation system handles things.

All of your moves and how they function should always be there so that you're melding them into your play style as you see fit. The passives were a good idea, they just don't have the umph they need. 25% paralyze on a backwards power attack for your big end-game perk? Really? Give it some juice, like each sideways powerattack reduces your shout timer by X% for each additional enemy you hit. Maybe a successful sprint attack gives you +100% on your next spell. Etc. (In this scenario, Sideways power attacks hit multiple enemies from level 1.)

Originally Posted by Xydarc

Compared to what? Skyrim's combat is no better or no worse than any other action RPG. Skyrim's magic system is big improvement over Oblivion's and better than some other games..

Skyrim is the first Bethesda game I've played (Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout 3) where the combat just breaks even. Which is good, they've clearly put a lot of effort into improving over the other games where you have to like the game in spite of the combat. That said, don't pretend it's amazing. Half the abilities aren't worth using, there's no way to avoid the high damage attacks or the shouts, it's very unresponsive when trying to follow through staggers, the hit box is wonky at best, and the balance is still crap.

It's not terrible, but don't compare it to action RPGs. You're throwing it in the ring with Assassin's Creed and Demon's Souls. That's just not even a fair fight. It would be much more in line with M&B which has much better combat in my experience.

[Xydarc]

I apologize. You are all right. I've been playing Skyrim wrong this whole time. Thanks to you, I've now come to loathe the combat system entirely. You have shown me the error of my ways.

[Deadend]

Bethesda's "big combat innovations" are letting you bind 2 different buttons for actions instead of one, and an extra menu to pick from because they heard people complaining about how combat involved lots of menu diving.

Combat is still shit, I hate the magic system because it wants me to constantly be opening menus to swap spells around then hold the L/R trigger to cast said spells, OH BOY.. WHAT FUN.

And then there are still only a few combat options, L, R, double.. hold for power attack. No finnese in movement due to the way characters accelerate, no sense of mass, the understanding of the weapon arcs are awkward as all hell, so melee is about bumping boxes and hitting attack, just like in Doom.

Compared to The Witcher 2, combat is a terrible joke. Compared to Dark Souls, which has almost the exact same controls, but the game plays dozens of times better, it's sad.

Maybe if Bethesda allowed for Z-lock, made it possible to try to swing AROUND shields, had a sort of grapple system, ability to dodge.. or anything, it would be better. But as it is, an entire thumb is occupied with keeping whatever I'm fighting in the center of the screen. Because swords do not swing like swords, they do damage based around crosshairs.

The perk system is also a step in the right direction.. but most of the perks are just for More NUMBERS, and the ones that do change how the game plays are buried deep into trees. The Fallout Perks were great because they changed things and most weren't just "do more damage with weapon X!"
I hate the 100 point perks, as by that point, using that skill no longer contributes to my character's growth at all, so shitty! and most of them are sort of weak. Yeah, I can make Dragonplate, which is cool.. but what comes after that?

Fun heavy attack things: How about a whirlwind move, 360 degree knockdown? Leap attack? Slow Stance where the character swings less often but for WAY more damage? quick stagger hits?

1h weapons? how about a disarm move? that would be fun. Trip attack? Pommel strike?

Magick system? Why not have a way to switch between Stream, ball, trap versions of an element?

Why is a face button devoted to "whip out sword?" and "open a menu"? I mean fuck.. those are actions that shouldn't be important. Shouts get a bumper and don't always fire off, sprint gets a bumper. 1st/3rd toggle gets a button.. fuck that, 3rd person mode is still terrible horseshit with a camera that is too close and shows off the terrible animations that are derived from FPS movements.

I still enjoyed the hell out of the game, but the clunky ass roots are still there and still ugly.

[Exodus]

Originally Posted by ClannerDelta

All of your moves and how they function should always be there so that you're melding them into your play style as you see fit. The passives were a good idea, they just don't have the umph they need. 25% paralyze on a backwards power attack for your big end-game perk? Really? Give it some juice, like each sideways powerattack reduces your shout timer by X% for each additional enemy you hit. Maybe a successful sprint attack gives you +100% on your next spell. Etc. (In this scenario, Sideways power attacks hit multiple enemies from level 1.)

Skyrim is the first Bethesda game I've played (Morrowind/Oblivion/Fallout 3) where the combat just breaks even. Which is good, they've clearly put a lot of effort into improving over the other games where you have to like the game in spite of the combat. That said, don't pretend it's amazing. Half the abilities aren't worth using, there's no way to avoid the high damage attacks or the shouts, it's very unresponsive when trying to follow through staggers, the hit box is wonky at best, and the balance is still crap.

It's not terrible, but don't compare it to action RPGs. You're throwing it in the ring with Assassin's Creed and Demon's Souls. That's just not even a fair fight. It would be much more in line with M&B which has much better combat in my experience.

Heh, ya know what Grift, you're absolutely right. All those perks need is a number boost on the passives.

I mean we've got this whole dragonblood thing to play with but hey, making the highest perks for combat boring as balls and maybe giving them higher numbers that amount to..an enchant, that's a great idea. I mean hey let's make the best possible perks smithing, enchanting and sneaking. Screw everything else.

I mean we could've had high end perks where your arms become dragon arms or some shit, your skin becomes one with dragon armour making you become more dragon in appearance.

Things to look forward to.

[SilentScreams]

For me, the definition of perk in gaming terms is a minor but permanent benefit. Skyrim's perks are exactly that.

The combat system is passable. Not great, not terrible. It's not the main attraction anyway. As long as it doesn't actively impede my enjoyment I don't care much, and it doesn't.

[evilgoodwin]

First big 3rd party addon will probably be a rewrite of the perks to make them all good :P

Some just seem like filler. Like the lockpicking ones. Either that, or I just got really good at it since I was able to open a "Master" lock at level 10

[ClannerDelta]

Originally Posted by Xydarc

I apologize. You are all right. I've been playing Skyrim wrong this whole time. Thanks to you, I've now come to loathe the combat system entirely. You have shown me the error of my ways.

Don't get butthurt. You can like the system all you want. I enjoy it sometimes. You didn't say that it got the job done or that you really liked it. You said it was better than other action RPGs. You set the combat up for comparison between Action RPGs. That's not really a comparison it's going to win. As said, the game excels in other areas.

It could stand to be improved, but they did take some steps forward so I can't really fault them too heavily. I'd probably not even care if the balance wasn't so wonky.

Still eagerly awaiting the release of the mod tools. I can't wait to see what people come up with.

[SilentScreams]

Suppose it depends what you consider an action RPG. Most action RPGs as I define them are just a case of swinging until you win. Skyrim is actually more in depth for the addition of a block button.

[ClannerDelta]

Originally Posted by SilentScreams

Suppose it depends what you consider an action RPG. Most action RPGs as I define them are just a case of swinging until you win. Skyrim is actually more in depth for the addition of a block button.

What sort of tardfuel are you playing that is so simple that a block button is some master stroke of ingenuity?

[Exodus]

Not to mention when you're swinging a sword that can cut a horse in half anything in the arc of the swing should get hurt. Not just one friggin target.

[Grifter]

Originally Posted by SilentScreams

Suppose it depends what you consider an action RPG. Most action RPGs as I define them are just a case of swinging until you win. Skyrim is actually more in depth for the addition of a block button.

Sooo your definition of an action RPG in this case is anything that's not as good as Skyrim? I can't think of a single A-RPG I've played in the last few years that doesn't allow you to block. Hell, I named 3 A-RPGs in my earlier post with more complex fight mechanics than Skyrim. I'll give you another one here, Divinity 2.

[Xydarc]

Originally Posted by ClannerDelta

Don't get butthurt. You can like the system all you want. I enjoy it sometimes. You didn't say that it got the job done or that you really liked it. You said it was better than other action RPGs. You set the combat up for comparison between Action RPGs. That's not really a comparison it's going to win. As said, the game excels in other areas.

It could stand to be improved, but they did take some steps forward so I can't really fault them too heavily. I'd probably not even care if the balance wasn't so wonky.

Still eagerly awaiting the release of the mod tools. I can't wait to see what people come up with.

Oh?

Originally Posted by Xydarc

Compared to what? Skyrim's combat is no better or no worse than any other action RPG. Skyrim's magic system is big improvement over Oblivion's and better than some other games.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.

You can't compare the magic systems in Skyrim and Dark Souls. Dark Souls was a step backward from Demon's Souls, and one of the main reasons I stopped playing. I haven't played Witcher 2 yet, so I can't comment on that.

I like that I can map and use spells like weapons (which is how is should be, in my opinion) and the quick-swap works well with the DualShock 3. Also, in my opinion, combat in 3rd person view is fun.

I just don't understand the hate for the combat, as I have had no problems with it and I am enjoying it. Is it Batman great? No. So again, I apologize that I'm not drinking the haterade.

On a side note, since when have gamers become so inept at hitting things with swords and axes that everything needs V.A.T.S. or a lock on?

[Xydarc]

Originally Posted by Exodus

Not to mention when you're swinging a sword that can cut a horse in half anything in the arc of the swing should get hurt. Not just one friggin target.

I've had no problems hitting multiple targets with a one-handed blade. Perhaps PEBCK?

[Exodus]

I think a lot of people are willing to look past the lack of polish for the sheer amount of content. I can understand that because hell that was the quickest 50hrs I've dumped in a game next to Dark Souls. The combat isn't difficult. It just lacks a lot of things that make it anything more than what every oblivion game like it has been. The finishing move cameras are very hit and miss not to mention how straight up ugly the animations line up.

They picked their battles but when it comes to first person RPG fantasy games, Dark Messiah still is far more satisfying in terms of combat game play itself.

[Grifter]

Originally Posted by Xydarc

Oh?

You can't compare the magic systems in Skyrim and Dark Souls. Dark Souls was a step backward from Demon's Souls, and one of the main reasons I stopped playing. I haven't played Witcher 2 yet, so I can't comment on that.

I like that I can map and use spells like weapons (which is how is should be, in my opinion) and the quick-swap works well with the DualShock 3. Also, in my opinion, combat in 3rd person view is fun.

I just don't understand the hate for the combat, as I have had no problems with it and I am enjoying it? Is it Batman great? No.

On a side note, since when have gamers become so inept at hitting things with swords and axes that everything needs V.A.T.S. or a lock on?

Lock on is to control the camera more than anything and if the controls were less... slippery it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal.

I'm sorry to say but I expect more out of my PC games than I do from my console games and maybe that's the problem, I'm playing a console game on my PC so I'm holding elements of it to a higher standard than I should be.

[ClannerDelta]

Originally Posted by Xydarc

On a side note, since when have gamers become so inept at hitting things with swords and axes that everything needs V.A.T.S. or a lock on?

Are you serious? You aren't hitting with a sword or axe. You're hitting with a point blank gun that looks like a sword or axe. That's entirely different and one of the biggest flaws in the combat engine. If the game factored in arcs much like Demon's Souls, it would be a great deal better right off the bat.

[Exodus]

Originally Posted by ClannerDelta

Are you serious? You aren't hitting with a sword or axe. You're hitting with a point blank gun that looks like a sword or axe. That's entirely different and one of the biggest flaws in the combat engine. If the game factored in arcs much like Demon's Souls, it would be a great deal better right off the bat.

Thank fuck someone who actually knows what they are talking about!

[SilentScreams]

Originally Posted by ClannerDelta

What sort of tardfuel are you playing that is so simple that a block button is some master stroke of ingenuity?

Originally Posted by Grifter

Sooo your definition of an action RPG in this case is anything that's not as good as Skyrim? I can't think of a single A-RPG I've played in the last few years that doesn't allow you to block. Hell, I named 3 A-RPGs in my earlier post with more complex fight mechanics than Skyrim. I'll give you another one here, Divinity 2.

Okay, so my obvious exaggeration wasn't obvious enough apparently. I'll include a disclaimer next time. Maybe a flashing sign.

My point is that action RPGs never have complex combat. It's always simple and requires minimal skill, and if your character is strong enough you'll win. Skyrim is no different.
That's what happens when your game is based on mathematical formulas. Someone will always be stronger and someone will always be weaker and the stronger person will invariably win. The challenge lies in making sure it's your character that is the strong one.

Maybe some action RPGs give you the illusion of more control in the combat, but in the end it always comes down to the math.