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Old 06-28-2011, 02:40 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by muddi900 View Post
I don't know where the idea of 'non-regulatory' marriage comes from. I mean marriage is a contract, who will enforce that contract?

If you want to abolish the institution of marriage, I'd understand you.
Marriage doesn't require the existence of a government or a regulatory body. The contract is between those that are getting married. The reason the government gets involved is because we've associated certain rights, tax implications, etc.

You're not suggesting that devoid of a government a marriage has no meaning?

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He may be referring to what I had brought up in another thread. I propose that the government totally abolishes the recognition of marriage and instead, it its place, there be a binding contract that can be done between two people regardless of their sexual orientation or relationship with each other..
Exactly... infeasible or not that's how I'd like it to be.

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You can propose that all you want but it simply will never happen. It's a nice idea but we are way too far down the road of marriage being recognized as a civil contract for us to completely abandon it.
Agreed...I was simply sharing how I'd like things to be and not how they are or ever will be.

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It sounds absurd to me to argue for anything less than full marriage equality.
Since you didn't quote anyone I can't tell who you're responding to but I suspect it has something to do with my post. Without government involvement we achieve full marriage equality so I don't really understand why you posted this. It's really two separate topics. Marital equality and governmental involvement. You and I agree on the first part but differ on the second. Either way people can marry anyone they want.

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Old 06-28-2011, 02:41 PM   #22
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The easy answer here is: This is the law and your job is to help uphold it as you are paid with State funds. Either you do your job or find somewhere else to work.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:49 PM   #23
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Well, I hope she enjoys being unemployed.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:58 PM   #24
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Well, I hope she enjoys being unemployed.
Exactly...there's no simpler way to put it. If signing those papers violates your personal belief system then it's time for a career change.
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:11 PM   #25
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Surely it's got to be more complex than that from a legal standpoint, unless this kind of situation is already covered in her contract. If you divorce (please excuse the pun) the situation from her bigoted viewpoint, it seems pretty shitty. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't be happy if I was told that my job would now involve doing something I felt was wrong and that my options were to STFU or quit.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:04 PM   #26
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Surely it's got to be more complex than that from a legal standpoint, unless this kind of situation is already covered in her contract. If you divorce (please excuse the pun) the situation from her bigoted viewpoint, it seems pretty shitty. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't be happy if I was told that my job would now involve doing something I felt was wrong and that my options were to STFU or quit.
Isn't she a state employee though? Should state workers be grandfathered in? That's an interesting question. If the laws surrounding marriage change you would expect a normal part of her job is to learn and adopt them. What if police officers started selectively enforcing laws because they happen to change during their career.

I wonder how viable that approach is...she can either STFU, quit or selectively implement policy. I like the first two.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:24 PM   #27
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Surely it's got to be more complex than that from a legal standpoint, unless this kind of situation is already covered in her contract. If you divorce (please excuse the pun) the situation from her bigoted viewpoint, it seems pretty shitty. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't be happy if I was told that my job would now involve doing something I felt was wrong and that my options were to STFU or quit.
But this isn't just something that she is being randomly subjugated to out of a hat draw. She clearly and eloquent said that due to her faith and her belief that it is immoral, she will not execute the signatures of the marriage licenses. That is violation of the 1st amendment to our constitution due to her having a state position and holding respect for an established religion. I'm sure eventually Ox will make an statement about what's going on in NY in regards to this employee. Then again, Ox's business may end up representing this person so perhaps he will say nothing.

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Old 06-28-2011, 06:24 PM   #28
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Refusing to sign those licenses constitutes discrimination against those people, which is a pretty big fuckin' deal for a government employee, and also the whole point of passing the bloody law.

She's an elected official. Which means she can either resign, or be recalled, but I don't think the state is going to just let here get away with not doing her bloody job.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:38 PM   #29
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Obviously she won't be able to continue in her job if she's not prepared to follow the law, I'm not suggesting that. I'm just wondering what employment law says about drastically changing the parameters of a job to the point where someone feels that they can no longer do that job on moral grounds.

It seems to me that it'd be a great way to get rid of people without having to actually fire them. "Yeah, you have to say 'I hope you contract syphilis and die, fuckwit!' to every customer now. If you have a problem with that, you can quit."
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:45 PM   #30
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Obviously she won't be able to continue in her job if she's not prepared to follow the law, I'm not suggesting that. I'm just wondering what employment law says about drastically changing the parameters of a job to the point where someone feels that they can no longer do that job on moral grounds.
But this is not a drastic change. Part of her job before was signing marriage licenses. That hasn't changed.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:51 PM   #31
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But this is not a drastic change. Part of her job before was signing marriage licenses. That hasn't changed.
It's a drastic change from the point of view of someone who has genuine issue with gay marriage. Again, I'm trying to separate the fact that she's a fucking bigot from the situation she's in. It's the whole defending the indefensible thing; personally, I think she should stop being a homophobe or have the courage of her convictions and quit. On the other hand, I don't like the idea that an employer can change your job so that it violates your beliefs and morals, leaving you with the choice of tolerating the change or quitting. It seems too open to abuse.
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:56 PM   #32
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If a government cannot pass laws and expect them to be enforced by it's agents, then nothing would get enforced.

I see your discomfort with the idea, but I don't see where it can practically be acted upon without crippling government.

Further, it's still basically discrimination on her part, which is a big fat no no. Her religious belief should have zero impact on the ability of her constituents to enjoy the benefits and privileges of a citizen of the state of New York. That's not her place, and that's precisely the discrimination that the law now makes illegal.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:13 PM   #33
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Isn't this something that happens regularly? I know it's happened to me. I was part of a small start up that went through a lot of hierarchy changes. At one point I was told by the financial head that I would basically have to decide between my job and my loyalty to my boss (who was the original founder of the company). I told him to shove the job up his ass and walked. I found out that a month later the company went under, every employee was offered the same deal and every one of us remained loyal to my boss.

Ultimately, it's up to the employer what the job entails, if the employee doesn't like it, there's the door.
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Old 06-28-2011, 07:42 PM   #34
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On the other hand, I don't like the idea that an employer can change your job so that it violates your beliefs and morals, leaving you with the choice of tolerating the change or quitting. It seems too open to abuse.
I'm all for worker's rights, but I don't see why an employer should feel limited by his employee's morals. As long as what he's asking them to do is completely legal and they're not being unfairly singled out then what's the problem?

If I'm a diehard vegan working at a vegan restaurant but it's not doing so well and the boss decides to add dairy and eggs and turn it into a vegetarian restaurant, well, I have to decide whether to stay or leave, but the employer should feel free to make that change. They have a business to run.

It's not like NY made gay marriage legal just to fuck with this one woman.
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:28 PM   #35
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Surely it's got to be more complex than that from a legal standpoint, unless this kind of situation is already covered in her contract. If you divorce (please excuse the pun) the situation from her bigoted viewpoint, it seems pretty shitty. I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't be happy if I was told that my job would now involve doing something I felt was wrong and that my options were to STFU or quit.
Have you thought through the implications of this statement? At the very least she would be opening up her city to lawsuits. As others said, imagine if police officers or judges could decide not to enforce certain laws that they didn't agree with?

This woman needs to do her job or quit, period.

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Old 06-29-2011, 03:09 AM   #36
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I thought you guys had actual separation of church from state? 'cus if you do that's the end of the issue right there, her personal religious belief is exactly that, personal. If the state has changed a law that puts her job at odds with that personal religious belief it is her issue not the states to deal with. As such she either does her job or quits and nothing else should be thought about it. If she is refusing to do her job then she should be fired. Easy.

I've known people who have quit jobs due to issues with the morality involved. Since if you have a moral issue you'll tend to have the moral sense to understand you can't expect to be paid not to do the job they are paying you to do just because you don't like it.
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Old 06-29-2011, 04:40 AM   #37
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I'm all for worker's rights, but I don't see why an employer should feel limited by his employee's morals. As long as what he's asking them to do is completely legal and they're not being unfairly singled out then what's the problem?

If I'm a diehard vegan working at a vegan restaurant but it's not doing so well and the boss decides to add dairy and eggs and turn it into a vegetarian restaurant, well, I have to decide whether to stay or leave, but the employer should feel free to make that change. They have a business to run.

It's not like NY made gay marriage legal just to fuck with this one woman.
This is a really good example of what I'm trying to get at. If you're hired to work at a vegan restaurant, especially if you're actually cooking the food, it could be argued that the restaurant changing from vegan to vegetarian means that the job you were hired to do no longer exists. This would mean your employer would have to offer you the new job or make you redundant, as opposed to you having to choose between staying or quitting.

Quote:
Have you thought through the implications of this statement? At the very least she would be opening up her city to lawsuits. As others said, imagine if police officers or judges could decide not to enforce certain laws that they didn't agree with?
At no point have I suggested that the woman be allowed to keep her job if she refuses to comply with the law.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:58 AM   #38
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This is a really good example of what I'm trying to get at. If you're hired to work at a vegan restaurant, especially if you're actually cooking the food, it could be argued that the restaurant changing from vegan to vegetarian means that the job you were hired to do no longer exists. This would mean your employer would have to offer you the new job or make you redundant, as opposed to you having to choose between staying or quitting.
Changing the menu does not drastically change the job. You're still cooking food. The role of chef still exists. Unless you signed a very specific contract, which I doubt.

Using that logic is even more damaging than worrying that employers are going to be routinely challenging the morals of workers to try and force them to quit.
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:10 AM   #39
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This is a really good example of what I'm trying to get at. If you're hired to work at a vegan restaurant, especially if you're actually cooking the food, it could be argued that the restaurant changing from vegan to vegetarian means that the job you were hired to do no longer exists. This would mean your employer would have to offer you the new job or make you redundant, as opposed to you having to choose between staying or quitting.
Does this have to happen with every menu change? What if a beef/chicken restaurant starts offering pork? Do they have to offer all the Jewish employees new contracts? Why aren't they offering everyone contracts? Isn't that discrimination? Any menu change could offend anyone, so if anything changes wouldn't that be like hiring the staff over again?

Her contract most likely says signing marriage contracts in accordance with how NY state defines marriage. Just because she didn't see this coming doesnt mean that it couldn't happen. She should have known it could happen and chosen not to take the job.

I know if I refused to do my job I would be fired. Why shouldn't she be held to the same standard?
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:17 AM   #40
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Employees that work for the government are not allowed to express their respect for any religion in regards to their duties. Where I work, if I were to do so I would be immediately terminated. I expect the same to be done to this foolish clerk.
There was a big stink about that in my province (SK) with Marriage Commisioners.

Basically, the government (which despite being usually fairly decent, is unfortunately hidebound on this) wanted to pass a law that allowed MCs to refuse to do ceremonies for same sex couples. The Court of Appeals threw out the law, saying that as gov't employees they didn't have that right.

However, they did raise the idea of a 'central desk' where a dispatcher could provide options for a couple given their situations and the preferences of the commissioner. This would prevent the issue, since a commissioner would never be in the situation of having to refuse service, since they would be only assigned potential clients.

I don't think they've put that into service, so as it stands now, if you don't like same sex marriage, you're out of luck in SK. You have to do your freaking job.

And I'm quite okay with that.
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