Prop 8, tyranny of the majority?

[ShivaX]

I don't see why amending a state constitution is so damn easy. I'm of the mindset that you should need a supermajority of some sort to do things like this. I'm also of the mindset that these things should be done by representatives and not popular vote. And now for some extremely relevant quotes:

Originally Posted by Edmund Burke

In a democracy the majority of citizens is capable of exercising the most cruel oppressions upon the minority...and that oppression of the majority will extend to far great number, and will be carried on with much greater fury, than can almost ever be apprehended from the dominion of a single sceptre. Under a cruel prince they have the plaudits of the people to animate their generous constancy under their sufferings; but those who are subjected to wrong under multitudes are deprived of all external consolation: they seem deserted by mankind, overpowered by a conspiracy of their whole species.

Originally Posted by James Fenimore Cooper

It is a besetting vice of democracies to substitute public opinion for law. This is the usual form in which masses of men exhibit their tyranny

Originally Posted by P. J. O'Rourke

Authority has always attracted the lowest elements in the human race. All through history mankind has been bullied by scum. Those who lord it over their fellows and toss commands in every direction and would boss the grass in the meadow about which way to bend in the wind are the most depraved kind of prostitutes. They will submit to any indignity, perform any vile act, do anything to achieve power. The worst off-sloughings of the planet are the ingredients of sovereignty. Every government is a parliament of whores. The trouble is, in a democracy the whores are us.

[neutralism]

Yeah, what really could have been an extremely joyous day was tarnished by these Proposition passage "victories."

I'm particularly upset with the ones that passed in Michigan and Massachusetts.

I agree, the process needs to change to make these kinds of things more difficult for a simple majority to enjoy.

It's being said that Obama's victory proves that America has evolved and joined the 21st century, but that is demonstratably false as so far 4 MILLION Californians have voted to eliminate a right in order to make a minority group second class citizens. It's still possible for liberty to prevail, but the odds aren't looking good.

[Purple Santa]

Originally Posted by Heresyte

It's being said that Obama's victory proves that America has evolved and joined the 21st century, but that is demonstratably false as so far 4 MILLION Californians have voted to eliminate a right in order to make a minority group second class citizens. It's still possible for liberty to prevail, but the odds aren't looking good.

It's not that America "evolved". Obama ran an excellent campaign. There was some great stuff on this in the NY Times yesterday on this yesterday. But I digress...What is sad, going back on topic, is to realize how the beliefs of many lead to "distorted" thought. I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion. I don't think everyone should have the same values as myself. Where the distortion comes in is when those beliefs encroach on the lives of others or how they will live. We don't do a good job of "educating" ourselves about being "different" and as different groups of humans that we are, that this being "different" is okay. What was once a survival trait, to "fear" those that are different is now a trait that is as useful as the appendix. It's unfortunate so much legislation gets built upon this learned fear.

[Seika]

From what I've personally seen, most people basically voted yes because they didn't want their children to be taught about the "gay ways" (as a fellow college student put it) in the schools.

:facepalm:

All I can say to all those that just became second class citizens, sorry about that, I made my vote, I tried to tell the truth, but there was just too much money on the other side. Oh well...

So much for equality for all.
Not that it matters, that one was already in pretty bad shape anyway, just another shoe print.

[aVaKus]

Thanks to everyone who tried to stop these horrible measures from going through. I honestly feel as though I just got kicked in the stomach. I was expecting for the measures in AZ and FL to pass, but California?

It's hard to even be the slightest bit excited over the Obama win when I know America just took a step backward for people like me.

A person's civil rights should never be put up to the popular vote. History has shown us this and now that this hatred is 'Constitutional', I'm not sure about the next step.

I guess I will continue to go about my life as a second class citizen.....for now.

[Inspector Fowler]

Not to be rude, but to be a devil's advocate - you realize this is a democracy, right?

There were some ballot intitiatives in CO I felt very strongly about that got defeated - including one referendum that would have (as you mentioned above) made it much more difficult to ammend the state Constitution. I will not go around saying how dumb the voters are. I won't stomp around like some kind of elitist child, saying how stupid, cruel, or "tyrannical" the voters are.

One of my least favorite elements of a democracy has been to watch how the minority (the losers) spend some time ridiculing, belittling, and insulting the majority (the winners). It doesn't win anybody to your cause any more than an insulting right-wing Christian bumper sticker is going to make somebody convert to Christianity.

I know this is going to upset you guys, which is fine. I'll be at work

But think about this before you get super angry: If you want real change, think about those who have caused it in our nation. They were, and are, overwhelmingly positive. Dr. King railed against racism, he didn't try to shame those who held racist beliefs. He didn't go around (as some of us may) talking about how dumb, backwards, or inbred racists were. If I were a person, especially a southerner, with racist beliefs, that would just encourage me to isolate myself and my beliefs even more. Being attacked would just "prove" to me that I was right.

In the same way, I would encourage you to not take this attitude with Prop 8. Trying to make people feel evil or stupid is just going to reinforce their belief that they were right to vote against gay marriage. It's going to make them feel attacked and encourage their feelings of "us vs them".

Just something to think about going forward.

[Telefrog]

I agree with most people on this. California voters really dropped the ball on Prop 8. Most of them bought into the "attack on marriage" line without even thinking about it.

Prejudice sucks.

[Thanasimos]

Fuck my state. I called it -- I said Prop 8 would pass. But that doesn' tmean I like it.

[KingGorilla]

I am happy that patients of my state have a new option in pain treatment. Stem cell research as a ban was an unfortunate consequence of poorly worded Dr. Death laws and ammendments from the 90's. I saw it as a good first step to groundbreaking medical research and techniques.

[cppcrusader]

Amendment 2 passed here, same deal. I was genuinely surprised considering how big the gay community is here Central Florida. I guess in the end the crotchety, senile, prejudiced old folks still outnumber everyone else in Florida.

[KingGorilla]

But with full faith and credit, these bans are moot. That is Federal mandate there, and the exception to gay marriage there failed.

And there are also the courts to consider. There is way more precedent against these bans than for. Dr. King did not get the ball rolling for nothing after all.

[Johan]

Here's a shocker...in a country of 300 million people, you're not going to get political/social wins across the board. You have the House, Senate, and White House, Democratic Party! Take your case to the people and to your political representatives who actually write the NATIONAL laws, rather than begging liberal judges to legislate from the bench. Convince your representatives and the public, and your victory will be lasting.

America is a modestly conservative nation; center-right. This isn't news...it's reality.

[Straximus]

Shameful.

I have little doubt that 30 years from now, our children will study this period with the same wonderment over the rampant and senseless intolerance that I studied the Jim Crow era with. Here's to the rest of the 21st century - May it end better than it began.

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Inspector Fowler

Not to be rude, but to be a devil's advocate - you realize this is a democracy, right?

Actually its a republic. The founders pretty well mocked democracy as a form of government. In fact its been universally mocked until recent times, when its meaning changed to mean democratic republic.

When it comes to the rights of others it when it really bothers me. I don't think a simple majority vote should be able to strip the rights of other people. If it was a 2/3 majority I would be more willing to accept it.

[Generation ABXY]

I rather chuckle at the idea that, when people vote for something you like (like Obama), it is a success of our great country and stands as a real beacon of what we can overcome. But, when it is for something you don't like (like this), it is a crushing failure and there is no hope for mankind.

That wasn't directed at anything in particular, just in general.

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Generation ABXY

I rather chuckle at the idea that, when people vote for something you like (like Obama), it is a success of our great country and stands as a real beacon of what we can overcome. But, when it is for something you don't like (like this), it is a crushing failure and there is no hope for mankind.

That wasn't directed at anything in particular, just in general.

Yeah but voting for a person is different than voting for people's rights. I've always hated politicians who couldn't look at a poll before making a choice. This goes beyond that and just makes popular opinion into law. If we had done the same thing with civil rights, odds are blacks would still have seperate bathrooms in quite a few states.

Also easy amendments to a constitution is just stupid anyway. California's Constitution is fucking stupid. Its like 100+ pages because its so easy to amend. Things that should just be laws made by a legislature are instead amendments to the constitution.

[Purple Santa]

Originally Posted by Johan

Here's a shocker...in a country of 300 million people, you're not going to get political/social wins across the board. You have the House, Senate, and White House, Democratic Party! Take your case to the people and to your political representatives who actually write the NATIONAL laws, rather than begging liberal judges to legislate from the bench. Convince your representatives and the public, and your victory will be lasting.

America is a modestly conservative nation; center-right. This isn't news...it's reality.

True and truer. But it's so much easier to sit for to many and just bitch. I'm already looking at next year's elections locally. There is someone in office for way to long, and since it's an office that no one really understands, they get to stay nice and cozy. I'm not in this area where I am now for a long period of time, but i'm getting active to put some pressure on the elected official. If we see something wrong, we need to act upon it. Even if it's just handing out leaflets or going door to door, with proverbail door getting slammed in your face.

[Johan]

Originally Posted by Purple Santa

True and truer.

Yes, but we're on opposite sides of the issue.

[Bone]

I am glad we have people looking out for marriage. My wife and I could barely stay married if we knew that gay people were allowed to do the same. Because traditional marriage is a rock, but gay marriage is paper- and we all know that paper beats rock.