Trayvon Martin?

[Serapth]

This thread isn't about what you think, I suppose this thread is in itself a meta-thread about this site and the Travyon Martin story...


Why have there been no threads on this site about it? I noticed in another thread that Ox mentioned that his thoughts were good for PM only conversation on the subject, and I've seen a few people brush on the subject, but no thread here?



Is it because its about race? Or has conversation in these here parts died? In the [site that shall not be named], no fucking way this story wouldn't have been discussed, so I am extremely shocked it hasn't been mentioned here yet.


So, to the usual suspects in these here parts, why didn't you make such a thread? I mean seriously, its got all the hallmarks of a P&R discussion... a person tried in the court of public opinion ( up to and including the president sounding off! ), mangled news coverage, a FOX News vs everyone else stance, a racial angle, gun law issues and someone having charges laid well after the fact.

Yet, it's not being discussed?

[Zecon]

Well, for me, it's still too fresh and all I really wanted was a court date for zimmerman so the facts could come out.
Right now theres too much fodder to sift through and few facts to base a decision on.

[Slack3r78]

My opinion is that regardless of outcome, Zimmerman is an idiot for getting out of his car and provoking a confrontation, against the directions of the 911 dispatcher.

[J Arcane]

Because race conversations are a fast boat to stupidtown.

[Ink Asylum]

Not just race conversations, but gun law conversations, too!

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

My opinion is that regardless of outcome, Zimmerman is an idiot for getting out of his car and provoking a confrontation, against the directions of the 911 dispatcher.

No, not an idiot. A killer. Whether it's in criminal or civil court (or both) he will be convicted. There is also the Homeowners Association that is most likely quite responsible for making Zimmerman "captain" of their neighborhood watch. I think the coroner's report will answer many questions regarding the supposed "assault" Zimmerman claims.

This will play out in various courts and it won't be pretty.

[Slack3r78]

Originally Posted by GunnyMo

No, not an idiot. A killer. Whether it's in criminal or civil court (or both) he will be convicted. There is also the Homeowners Association that is most likely quite responsible for making Zimmerman "captain" of their neighborhood watch. I think the coroner's report will answer many questions regarding the supposed "assault" Zimmerman claims.

This will play out in various courts and it won't be pretty.

I largely disagree with this. I don't think Zimmerman set out to kill Martin; I do think he unnecessarily placed himself in that situation and should be accountable as a result. I need to look at Florida's murder statute, but his actions strike me as closer to manslaughter than outright murder.

And, from what I've heard, Zimmerman was essentially self-appointed as Guardian of the Neighborhood.

[Slack3r78]

I will add that I have a bad feeling that there's rioting in our eventual future given any number of possible outcomes.

[Reverant]

I've read the story from a couple different sources, and it's hard to see Zimmerman as anything but a murderer- he followed and killed an unarmed teenager. I very much doubt it's a clear cut racial issue as some angles paint it (ie, Zimmerman killed Martin for being black), but this is definitely a case where a man nearly got away with murder.

I don't think opinions on the stand your ground law matter here. Was he emboldened by it? Can't say. But he wasn't playing by the rule of law when he killed the kid, so the validity of the law isn't in question. It was misapplied to him in the first place. I'm not defending or attacking SYG, just saying that doing so when the law was probably broken anyway is pointless.

[Slack3r78]

I've thought that the focus on stand your ground has been misguided anyway. SYG means you don't have to run away if confronted; Zimmerman initiated the confrontation willingly.

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

I largely disagree with this. I don't think Zimmerman set out to kill Martin; I do think he unnecessarily placed himself in that situation and should be accountable as a result. I need to look at Florida's murder statute, but his actions strike me as closer to manslaughter than outright murder.

And, from what I've heard, Zimmerman was essentially self-appointed as Guardian of the Neighborhood.

Whether the courts call it murder, manslaughter or self defense he is still a killer. Martin didn't fall on that bullet; Zimmerman willfully pulled the trigger.

I have seen emails and documents (CNN had them, I believe) that were brought out showing he had the support of the Homeowners Association in regards to his Watch duties.

[Slack3r78]

Originally Posted by GunnyMo

Whether the courts call it murder, manslaughter or self defense he is still a killer. Martin didn't fall on that bullet; Zimmerman willfully pulled the trigger.

I have seen emails and documents (CNN had them, I believe) that were brought out showing he had the support of the Homeowners Association in regards to his Watch duties.

I guess what I ultimately meant is that none of this would have happened if he'd stayed in the car. He shouldn't have needed a 911 dispatcher to tell him to do so; common sense should have dictated as much. That's where my opinion of idiot comes into play. Even if this hadn't resulted in a death, he'd still be a fool for getting out of the car and initiating the confrontation.

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

I guess what I ultimately meant is that none of this would have happened if he'd stayed in the car. He shouldn't have needed a 911 dispatcher to tell him to do so; common sense should have dictated as much. That's where my opinion of idiot comes into play. Even if this hadn't resulted in a death, he'd still be a fool for getting out of the car and initiating the confrontation.

Totally agree.

[Deadend]

Originally Posted by Serapth

This thread isn't about what you think, I suppose this thread is in itself a meta-thread about this site and the Travyon Martin story...


Why have there been no threads on this site about it? I noticed in another thread that Ox mentioned that his thoughts were good for PM only conversation on the subject, and I've seen a few people brush on the subject, but no thread here?



Is it because its about race? Or has conversation in these here parts died? In the [site that shall not be named], no fucking way this story wouldn't have been discussed, so I am extremely shocked it hasn't been mentioned here yet.


So, to the usual suspects in these here parts, why didn't you make such a thread? I mean seriously, its got all the hallmarks of a P&R discussion... a person tried in the court of public opinion ( up to and including the president sounding off! ), mangled news coverage, a FOX News vs everyone else stance, a racial angle, gun law issues and someone having charges laid well after the fact.

Yet, it's not being discussed?

I don't make P&R threads.

I also find discussing things in this section to end up just making me dislike others.

I'd probably go off on the first person to do victim blaming, as I KNOW it will happen if this thread gets rolling.

The thing that many people seem to forget is that most of the initial rage was aimed at the police, as it well should have been for deciding not to do their jobs, until several months after the fact, when lets be honest, if it was a black guy shooting a white kid, he would be in jail, awaiting trial within a day, with a extremely high bail.

[Superman's Dead]

This conversation is incredibly divisive. Most people have an opinion on it, and most of those opinions are very very strong.

It's very easy for the conversation to swing heavily one way or the other to the point of absurdity. The way that certain people reacted to this case in the initial wave of PR really drove home to me that a lot of the population doesn't understand the way that the justice system works, or doesn't want to understand.

I think the fact that he should have been arrested much sooner is clear. It's how people come to that decision, and how they express it. Because right now, for the most part, the public don't know shit.

[Matthias]

To be honest, I never pursued my initial inquiry with Ox because I had, upon hearing about Geraldo's ridiculous statements, done an in-depth analysis of the primary source evidence (dispatcher conversation, satellite view of the neighborhood to translate positions, police report, and interview with Martin's girlfriend), dumped a bunch of thoughts and facts on my Facebook, and have had very little energy to discuss it since.

Basically, my probably biased analysis leads me to believe that Martin's movements as described by Zimmerman fit a teenager trying to find the right house on a dark rainy night, in an unfamiliar neighborhood with identical townhouses. Zimmerman had no real reason to get out of his car, and even ignoring the muffled comment that some people are taking as a racist slur (I could barely pick up the sound of his voice in the recording I had, so I think it safest to ignore), was making comments about (going from memory) "these assholes always getting away". If Martin's girlfriend is to be believed, when the two met, Martin asked why Zimmerman was he was being followed, Zimmerman asked what he was doing here, then the headset (iPhone earbuds?) fell.

It just seems to me like Zimmerman had a lot more motivation to start a fight than Martin did. The latter was just trying to get home, and his girlfriend confirms that he knew he was being followed and chose to quickly walk away to avoid conflict. Meanwhile, Zimmerman had at least some small measure of a vigilante attitude, pursued the person, and (it could be interpreted) accused Martin of not belonging in this neighborhood. One party had another person on the phone with him, and another had just hung up on a recorded voice of authority. One party seemed to exhibit a lot more aggression going into the unknown space between Martin's headset falling and the gunshot, and the aggression happened to come from the guy who pulled the trigger.

I'm willing to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt that he did not instigate the fight, and separately that he really did feel that pulling the trigger was his last resort, but there's enough doubt there that this needs to face a criminal trial. After all, though we know Martin was or at least felt cornered, we have no idea how quickly or violently he would have reacted to being cornered and verbally accused. My gut tells me he probably didn't instigate the scuffle, but gut instinct can't condemn Zimmerman.

I did find it odd/annoying that the only police report I could find when I did my digging for primary source (that being the initial police report) didn't provide a lot of detail on Zimmerman's injuries, and provided basically no information on Martin's injury--just that they gave CPR (for seemingly a very short time, considering they were dispatched at 1917 and declared him dead at 1930, having only tried to contact Martin after cuffing Zimmerman). Based on Zimmerman's injuries, he had been knocked onto his back and punched at least once, but we have/had no information on Martin except for a gunshot wound, and I don't even remember hearing where it was.

I've paid basically zero attention to the media since then, so that may be outdated at this point.

[Hawkzombie]

I'm not taking sides in this, honestly because there is a lot of info that is either missing, or is grossly misrepresented.

While most may not think it matters, all the pictures we've seen of the victim have been of him a few years back. Current pictures have him in more of a 'gang-banger' type of attire and supposed attitude (neither of which I'm assuming, mind you). Why would there be a need to almost falsify the victim's mannerisms in the media's eye? Would anyone feel any different about it if he was indeed a bad kid (or just looked like one) who was causing trouble, instead of the golden boy the media has portrayed him to be? And let's say the accused wasn't an ex-con. Or even if he were black as well? If you removed the 'race' card people seem to be throwing about would anyone care as much?

I think Zimmerman was zealous in his protection of the neighborhood. But I don't know if he's truly at fault for what happened (I recall seeing there was a witness account saying Zimmerman was on the ground and being attacked. In all honesty if this is true, I know I personally would have shot if I felt I was in real danger. But a smart person also can generally tell the difference between a quickly escalating mortal danger, and a fight).

The facts will hopefully come to light during the trial, but until everything is out there, I prefer to have no opinion on the matter, other than a pursuit of the truth.

[Serapth]

[muddi900]

In Michigan?

[Serapth]

Originally Posted by muddi900

In Michigan?

Yeah, I mean, its not like there's ever been riots in Michigan........