"Obamacare" Upheld

[MagGnome]

Originally Posted by Mot Wakorb

Don't go blaming everyone in insurance for bad decisions made by higher ups - I know a lot of people that are working the lower-end jobs within health insurance companies that would suffer quite a lot with the "fuck those companies, they can die" bit. You want the new healthcare law to make a really huge problem? Help it lead to unemployment.

So we should keep a crappy system going so that people can keep their jobs?

[Matthias]

Originally Posted by MagGnome

So we should keep a crappy system going so that people can keep their jobs?

There are ways to change an industry without completely shutting down every participant and starting over.

[J Arcane]

Originally Posted by Matthias

There are ways to change an industry without completely shutting down every participant and starting over.

Only if the previous system is genuinely reformable.

[biosc1]

Originally Posted by Chris_D

Which country that isn't the US requires you to pay 20% of your yearly income on health insurance?

Ya, I pay $60ish per person (x2, baby is free), so I pay about $1400 or so a year for 'mandatory' health insurance (though, my company gives me money for this, so I'm even more lucky). It's not a drop in the bucket, but take into account that I pay about $220 per month for cable and Internet.

Those below a certain income level don't have to pay at all.

[Mot Wakorb]

Originally Posted by MagGnome

So we should keep a crappy system going so that people can keep their jobs?

Overhauling the system doesn't require exploding it all. Exploding it all would mean we explode the hospital and medical systems as well. I don't see that happening.

[Doogie2K]

Originally Posted by biosc1

Ya, I pay $60ish per person (x2, baby is free), so I pay about $1400 or so a year for 'mandatory' health insurance (though, my company gives me money for this, so I'm even more lucky). It's not a drop in the bucket, but take into account that I pay about $220 per month for cable and Internet.

Those below a certain income level don't have to pay at all.

$220 for cable and Internet? Really? I think we got ours down to $150-$175 for cable, Internet, AND phone, and I don't think it cost us any channels we cared about. And we got faster Internet to boot!

[Mot Wakorb]

Originally Posted by Doogie2K

$220 for cable and Internet? Really? I think we got ours down to $150-$175 for cable, Internet, AND phone, and I don't think it cost us any channels we cared about. And we got faster Internet to boot!

I'm at around $150 for DirecTV and 30mbit cable - that's pricey (The $220)

[jpublic]

Originally Posted by ShivaX

Cause most people can't afford to spend 20%+ of their yearly income on insurance?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ce-costs_N.htm

That is from 2009. An "average middle class family" makes about $45k-$50k a year or so. So we're looking at probably about $15k a year in insurance. 1/3 of the income of the family. For insurance. Something you might not ever need. I can't imagine why most people say "fuck it I'll hope for the best".

I mean, lets say you have medical bills of $45k, as long as that doesn't happen more than once every 3 years you'll break even without insurance.

Edit: And don't forget the millions who don't even make that much in a year. How are they going to afford $13k+ a year for insurance when they're pulling in $12k-$20k?

http://news.yahoo.com/census-us-pove...142639972.html

$15k/year? WTF?! Cripes, the crooks you guys have for your health care and insurance outfits have you guys fooled if they have you honestly thinking that's a fair price.

Hell, that's more than I pay in fed/prov taxes combined, and I make more than your average middle class american family.


I agree with those who say the US needs to nuke that system and start over, with some proper controls.

Or at least pull some of the money from the ludicrous defense spending, but that's another issue.

[biosc1]

Originally Posted by Doogie2K

$220 for cable and Internet? Really? I think we got ours down to $150-$175 for cable, Internet, AND phone, and I don't think it cost us any channels we cared about. And we got faster Internet to boot!

Yah, it's the full meal deal at the moment (minus phone which we don't have). I need to call this week and sort it out because I'm paying for stuff I don't even remotely watch.

Originally Posted by jpublic

$15k/year? WTF?! Cripes, the crooks you guys have for your health care and insurance outfits have you guys fooled if they have you honestly thinking that's a fair price.

Hell, that's more than I pay in fed/prov taxes combined, and I make more than your average middle class american family.

To be fair, they don't have a federal sales tax (GST) that helps the provinces with health care payments from the federal government.

[jpublic]

Yeah, I suppose. But still those prices are criminal.

[Chris_D]

When I lived in Australia, my annual health insurance bill was ~$1500. That included private health insurance coverage for a private hospital room, my glasses, and other things.

[TheKeck]

Originally Posted by Mot Wakorb

I'm at around $150 for DirecTV and 30mbit cable - that's pricey (The $220)

I pay $40 a month for 40 Mbit internet and $16 a month for Netflix.

Wait... what's the thread topic again?

[MagGnome]

$50 for Internet (split between two people, so $25 each), $20 for Netflix, and soon to be $35 for my monthly cell phone bill (down from $67 and change).

Back on topic - single payer or bust.

[Primus]

Originally Posted by biosc1

Everyone has horror stories about any system. These stories you here about "waiting months just to get an appointment" are usually bullshit or few and far between.

My mom has had some health issues over the years and we've never had to wait months for any appointment. Heck, we barely struggle to get them all in one week.

But, whatever, you're going to believe what you're going to believe. As I've said before, it's not bad at all here...oh yah, and all these visits? Costs me $54 a month which my employer covers (it's free if your household income is less than a certain number).

With my wife's past pregnancy, no issues booking appointments at all. Heck, she just calls up the doctor's office and gets an appointment.

Emergency...yah, I've had to wait in emergency for a while with friends, my mom, or my wife. You are seen right away if you are the most urgent case.

Also, this: http://digitaljournal.com/article/288455 in reply to the HuffPost.

Actually that is completely consistent with how the system fails. You live in BC which is one of the largest provinces in Canada. The problem mainly exists in your smallest provinces.

If we want to continue to go by personal anecdotes as an indicator; I had a Canadian buddy I used to power lift with in Afghanistan. He said when he was younger he got a hernia and had to wait 5 months to get it fixed, which is ridiculous by American standards. He, a Canadian, specifically told me that the system was terrible and that he would of given anything to have the American option. Now, I am not saying I want our system as is, but I sure as hell don't want to go through his experience.

My uncle is also British and told me a horror story about his hip replacement, and also stated it was a big factor in becoming a US citizen.

I still feel that this is a lateral move with a different set of problems that will just leave a different demographic in the dust and ultimately doesn't address the underlying problems with our current systems.

[J Arcane]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Primus

I still feel that this is a lateral move with a different set of problems that will just leave a different demographic in the dust and ultimately doesn't address the underlying problems with our current systems.

What demographic?

[MagGnome]

Republicans. This plan obviously leaves Republicans in the dust.

[Primus]

Originally Posted by ShivaX

What demographic?

As I said, those in less populated locations as the quality/ quantity of care diminishes due to the nature of the system.

Those affected by the droppage of employer-sponsored insurance.

Taxation of the middle class.

Let's not forget the reform does nothing to the current insane price of healthcare, so when those insane co-pays come through someone still has to pay for it. Rob Peter to pay Paul, etc.

Originally Posted by J Arcane

The plural of anecdote is not data.

Exactly. Maybe someone can provide 6 stories, have 3 of them pro-socialized and 3 anti and we can prove that both systems are equal.

Originally Posted by MagGnome

Republicans. This plan obviously leaves Republicans in the dust.

Shhh, adults are talking.

[ShivaX]

Originally Posted by Primus

As I said, those in less populated locations as the quality/ quantity of care diminishes due to the nature of the system.

Wut?

Seriously, what language are you speaking?

[Libuke]

I live in an area with one million people spread over a ~65000 km2 (so ~250000 sq mi) it. You can only get hospitals so close to those people no matter what system. However we have access to all services sometimes you just have to go farther then down the block.

I suspect however that if the health care where not public there would be even less coverage with it limited to like 3 or 4 of the major "urban" centres that we do have.