Trayvon Martin?

[Serapth]

This thread isn't about what you think, I suppose this thread is in itself a meta-thread about this site and the Travyon Martin story...


Why have there been no threads on this site about it? I noticed in another thread that Ox mentioned that his thoughts were good for PM only conversation on the subject, and I've seen a few people brush on the subject, but no thread here?



Is it because its about race? Or has conversation in these here parts died? In the [site that shall not be named], no fucking way this story wouldn't have been discussed, so I am extremely shocked it hasn't been mentioned here yet.


So, to the usual suspects in these here parts, why didn't you make such a thread? I mean seriously, its got all the hallmarks of a P&R discussion... a person tried in the court of public opinion ( up to and including the president sounding off! ), mangled news coverage, a FOX News vs everyone else stance, a racial angle, gun law issues and someone having charges laid well after the fact.

Yet, it's not being discussed?

[Zecon]

Well, for me, it's still too fresh and all I really wanted was a court date for zimmerman so the facts could come out.
Right now theres too much fodder to sift through and few facts to base a decision on.

[Slack3r78]

My opinion is that regardless of outcome, Zimmerman is an idiot for getting out of his car and provoking a confrontation, against the directions of the 911 dispatcher.

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

My opinion is that regardless of outcome, Zimmerman is an idiot for getting out of his car and provoking a confrontation, against the directions of the 911 dispatcher.

No, not an idiot. A killer. Whether it's in criminal or civil court (or both) he will be convicted. There is also the Homeowners Association that is most likely quite responsible for making Zimmerman "captain" of their neighborhood watch. I think the coroner's report will answer many questions regarding the supposed "assault" Zimmerman claims.

This will play out in various courts and it won't be pretty.

[J Arcane]

Because race conversations are a fast boat to stupidtown.

[Ink Asylum]

Not just race conversations, but gun law conversations, too!

[Slack3r78]

Originally Posted by GunnyMo

No, not an idiot. A killer. Whether it's in criminal or civil court (or both) he will be convicted. There is also the Homeowners Association that is most likely quite responsible for making Zimmerman "captain" of their neighborhood watch. I think the coroner's report will answer many questions regarding the supposed "assault" Zimmerman claims.

This will play out in various courts and it won't be pretty.

I largely disagree with this. I don't think Zimmerman set out to kill Martin; I do think he unnecessarily placed himself in that situation and should be accountable as a result. I need to look at Florida's murder statute, but his actions strike me as closer to manslaughter than outright murder.

And, from what I've heard, Zimmerman was essentially self-appointed as Guardian of the Neighborhood.

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

I largely disagree with this. I don't think Zimmerman set out to kill Martin; I do think he unnecessarily placed himself in that situation and should be accountable as a result. I need to look at Florida's murder statute, but his actions strike me as closer to manslaughter than outright murder.

And, from what I've heard, Zimmerman was essentially self-appointed as Guardian of the Neighborhood.

Whether the courts call it murder, manslaughter or self defense he is still a killer. Martin didn't fall on that bullet; Zimmerman willfully pulled the trigger.

I have seen emails and documents (CNN had them, I believe) that were brought out showing he had the support of the Homeowners Association in regards to his Watch duties.

[Slack3r78]

I will add that I have a bad feeling that there's rioting in our eventual future given any number of possible outcomes.

[Reverant]

I've read the story from a couple different sources, and it's hard to see Zimmerman as anything but a murderer- he followed and killed an unarmed teenager. I very much doubt it's a clear cut racial issue as some angles paint it (ie, Zimmerman killed Martin for being black), but this is definitely a case where a man nearly got away with murder.

I don't think opinions on the stand your ground law matter here. Was he emboldened by it? Can't say. But he wasn't playing by the rule of law when he killed the kid, so the validity of the law isn't in question. It was misapplied to him in the first place. I'm not defending or attacking SYG, just saying that doing so when the law was probably broken anyway is pointless.

[Slack3r78]

I've thought that the focus on stand your ground has been misguided anyway. SYG means you don't have to run away if confronted; Zimmerman initiated the confrontation willingly.

[Bone]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

I've thought that the focus on stand your ground has been misguided anyway. SYG means you don't have to run away if confronted; Zimmerman initiated the confrontation willingly.

I recently took my Concealed Handgun License class, and almost all of it focuses on the responsibility of the concealed carrier. Some of the highlights: do not get in fights. Do not drink. Do not try and escalate any situation even if you are in the right. Walk away from potential situations. Do not try to act like a law enforcement officer.

The CHL permit (at least in Texas, which has a similar stand your ground law as Florida) is for self defense. It's not so that you can go investigating people and making citizen's arrests. An example was given in class: what if you witnessed a kidnapping, but unbeknownst to you, it was one of those sorority kidnappings in which nobody was in danger? If you used deadly force to be a hero, you'd have murdered a college student.

Basically, the use of a CHL to protect others is going to come down to a situation where you know someone's life is in immediate danger. It might even mean waiting until someone is already hurt. It certainly doesn't let you upgrade your role as a neighborhood watchman and go harassing people.

Regardless of Trayvon's history (many right-wingers are making a big deal about his gold teeth and tattoos, pot bust at school, etc), it doesn't mean he should have been shot. He was being followed at night, in the rain, by what I would call a suspicious individual- unmarked car, unidentified person. Even if it's found that he did go up and punch Zimmerman, I would say he was in fear of his own safety.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by Bone

I recently took my Concealed Handgun License class, and almost all of it focuses on the responsibility of the concealed carrier. Some of the highlights: do not get in fights. Do not drink. Do not try and escalate any situation even if you are in the right. Walk away from potential situations. Do not try to act like a law enforcement officer.

The CHL permit (at least in Texas, which has a similar stand your ground law as Florida) is for self defense. It's not so that you can go investigating people and making citizen's arrests. An example was given in class: what if you witnessed a kidnapping, but unbeknownst to you, it was one of those sorority kidnappings in which nobody was in danger? If you used deadly force to be a hero, you'd have murdered a college student.

Basically, the use of a CHL to protect others is going to come down to a situation where you know someone's life is in immediate danger. It might even mean waiting until someone is already hurt. It certainly doesn't let you upgrade your role as a neighborhood watchman and go harassing people.

Regardless of Trayvon's history (many right-wingers are making a big deal about his gold teeth and tattoos, pot bust at school, etc), it doesn't mean he should have been shot. He was being followed at night, in the rain, by what I would call a suspicious individual- unmarked car, unidentified person. Even if it's found that he did go up and punch Zimmerman, I would say he was in fear of his own safety.

The Stand Your Ground law here in Florida simply means that you are able to use deadly force if you reasonably believe that you life is in danger. In the case of Zimmerman, he claimed it was SYG even though it clearly wasn't. The Sanford PD made the wrong call and released him. The incident report from the paramedics on-site should have been more than enough for the Sanford PD to hold him until, at the very least, a hearing was done about the incident.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

The Stand Your Ground law here in Florida simply means that you are able to use deadly force if you reasonably believe that you life is in danger. In the case of Zimmerman, he claimed it was SYG even though it clearly wasn't. The Sanford PD made the wrong call and released him. The incident report from the paramedics on-site should have been more than enough for the Sanford PD to hold him until, at the very least, a hearing was done about the incident.

How does it clearly not qualify as SYG? I mean, I think that the events that actually happened aren't intended to be covered under SYG, but the police aren't supposed to operate that way. If Zimmerman's story is true (which it likely isn't), the law applies.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by TheFlyingOrc

How does it clearly not qualify as SYG? I mean, I think that the events that actually happened aren't intended to be covered under SYG, but the police aren't supposed to operate that way. If Zimmerman's story is true (which it likely isn't), the law applies.

Glad you asked.

It doesn't qualify as SYG because of the evidence collected by the paramedics when they arrived to the scene. Martin, if he did bang Zimmerman's head to the ground, didn't do it at a level of force that caused a concussion. A punch to the nose doesn't qualify as life threatening either. There was no medical evidence that showed that Zimmerman's life was under threat.

Someone can't kill someone, declare SYG and then get set free. That is what happened in Sanford and is entirely the fault of the PD there. The PD captain that took charge after the original took leave should have immediately put an arrest warrant out for Zimmerman.

[Bone]

Originally Posted by Voodoo

The Stand Your Ground law here in Florida simply means that you are able to use deadly force if you reasonably believe that you life is in danger. In the case of Zimmerman, he claimed it was SYG even though it clearly wasn't. The Sanford PD made the wrong call and released him. The incident report from the paramedics on-site should have been more than enough for the Sanford PD to hold him until, at the very least, a hearing was done about the incident.

Yep. If it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with the above. I was saying that Texas has a similar law, but it doesn't let you go applying it to situations without some clear indication that your life was threatened.

[Voodoo]

Originally Posted by Bone

Yep. If it wasn't clear, I was agreeing with the above. I was saying that Texas has a similar law, but it doesn't let you go applying it to situations without some clear indication that your life was threatened.

Oh I know, I was standing to re-enforce what you said. Here we have 3 state laws that govern deadly force. You've got the 'Castle Doctrine', 'Stand Your Ground' and finally 'Concealed & Carry'.

Castle Doctrine doesn't require someone to have a gun permit as it manages the activity within a home or business in regards to deadly force.

Stand Your Ground requires a C&C license if you SYG with a gun. If you SYG with a knife, it would be covered by the law but doesn't require a C&C license.

C&C allows you to have a weapon on you but it may only be carried & drawn under very strict conditions.

[Slack3r78]

Originally Posted by GunnyMo

Whether the courts call it murder, manslaughter or self defense he is still a killer. Martin didn't fall on that bullet; Zimmerman willfully pulled the trigger.

I have seen emails and documents (CNN had them, I believe) that were brought out showing he had the support of the Homeowners Association in regards to his Watch duties.

I guess what I ultimately meant is that none of this would have happened if he'd stayed in the car. He shouldn't have needed a 911 dispatcher to tell him to do so; common sense should have dictated as much. That's where my opinion of idiot comes into play. Even if this hadn't resulted in a death, he'd still be a fool for getting out of the car and initiating the confrontation.

[GunnyMo]

Originally Posted by Slack3r78

I guess what I ultimately meant is that none of this would have happened if he'd stayed in the car. He shouldn't have needed a 911 dispatcher to tell him to do so; common sense should have dictated as much. That's where my opinion of idiot comes into play. Even if this hadn't resulted in a death, he'd still be a fool for getting out of the car and initiating the confrontation.

Totally agree.

[Deadend]

Originally Posted by Serapth

This thread isn't about what you think, I suppose this thread is in itself a meta-thread about this site and the Travyon Martin story...


Why have there been no threads on this site about it? I noticed in another thread that Ox mentioned that his thoughts were good for PM only conversation on the subject, and I've seen a few people brush on the subject, but no thread here?



Is it because its about race? Or has conversation in these here parts died? In the [site that shall not be named], no fucking way this story wouldn't have been discussed, so I am extremely shocked it hasn't been mentioned here yet.


So, to the usual suspects in these here parts, why didn't you make such a thread? I mean seriously, its got all the hallmarks of a P&R discussion... a person tried in the court of public opinion ( up to and including the president sounding off! ), mangled news coverage, a FOX News vs everyone else stance, a racial angle, gun law issues and someone having charges laid well after the fact.

Yet, it's not being discussed?

I don't make P&R threads.

I also find discussing things in this section to end up just making me dislike others.

I'd probably go off on the first person to do victim blaming, as I KNOW it will happen if this thread gets rolling.

The thing that many people seem to forget is that most of the initial rage was aimed at the police, as it well should have been for deciding not to do their jobs, until several months after the fact, when lets be honest, if it was a black guy shooting a white kid, he would be in jail, awaiting trial within a day, with a extremely high bail.