Atari & Cryptic Prepping Neverwinter Nights MMO?

[DoctorFinger]

Variety (http://weblogs.variety.com/the_cut_scene/2009/06/ataris-secret-weapon-neverwinter-nights.html) is reporting that Atari and developer Cryptic (Champions Online, Star Trek Online) are crafting a Neverwinter Nights MMO for a 2011 release.

Details on the project are sparse. The new MMO would almost certainly use the venerable pen & paper RPG's 4th Edition rules, first released last year. The original Neverwinter Nights, developed by Bioware, was a critical and commercial darling. The 2006 sequel from developer Obsidian was not was well received, but still posted solid sales and reviews. It appears that NWNO was the mystery title Atari had been planning to show at E3 - alongside Champions Online and Ghostbusters - before it withdrew from the show.

Part of what makes this so intriguing is the publisher, Atari (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/tags.php?tag=atari). To say they've had a bad year would be a bit of an understatement. The company has lost it's President (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8920), sold it's European operations to Namco Bandai (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8468) and was forced to pull out of E3 (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8409) due to reported financial problems. The D & D license is one of the few bullets the company has left in the chamber.

Then there's the other elephant in the room. An elephant with the initials of W-O-W. The MMO market is very crowded, and getting more so with every passing month. But the fantasy MMO field in particular is jam packed with contenders. Will the brand recognition of the D & D name be enough to make it stand out in the crowded field? And can Cryptic Studios handle developing three fairly high profile MMOs at the same time?

Either way, this seems to connect to the news that D & D Online is moving to a free-play model (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=9326).

Source - Variety (http://weblogs.variety.com/the_cut_scene/2009/06/ataris-secret-weapon-neverwinter-nights.html).

[Lint of Death]

I just wanted to say that a computer game using 4th edition rules would have a pretty good chance of being great!

[BigJonno]

I'm sick of old D&D game titles being milked. D&D has a thirty-odd year history, several wonderful gameworlds developed for it that have been fleshed out in hundreds of sourcebooks and novels, but they still want to stick Baldur's Gate and now Neverwinter Nights on it.

Yeah, I had to explain that the console games were NOT Baldur's Gate to someone the other day.

[Telefrog]

I just wanted to say that a computer game using 4th edition rules would have a pretty good chance of being great!

I agree, except I'm not sure that Atari or Cryptic are the guys to do it. Cryptic would seem to be pretty busy right now, what with launching two MMOs (Star Trek and Champions) and Atari... Well... We all know they aren't doing so hot.

[Voodoo]

NWN MMO... That'd be interesting. I wonder how they would entice those that play on persistent world servers.

Also, I HOPE that they stick to an isometric view!

[Jackel]

I'd probably give this one a try. I really enjoyed the first NWN, but never tried the second as I simply overlooked it.

Hopefully Atari is able to pull out of its slump with this one.

[biosc1]

Would be nice to have a more hardcore alternative to WoW and LotRO...but I doubt they'll have the cajones to pull it off well.

[DoctorFinger]

Would be nice to have a more hardcore alternative to WoW and LotRO...but I doubt they'll have the cajones to pull it off well.How would you define more hardcore an MMO? The only step which comes to mind is the abolition of classes, replaced with some sort of skill buying system, a la Oblivion/Fallout 3.

[J Arcane]

SweetGodallmighty no.

Putting aside the simple fact that I hate 4e, even if I liked it, the mechanics would require even more butchering than 3e recieved to turn it into an MMO, unless they went the Dofus/Atlantica route and made it turn-based, which they'll never do because it would be so niche as to be retarded.

Plus, as I've said again and again, Cryptic has a fuck of a lot to prove to me beffore I'll waste my time with their shit again. Even if the game is decent at launch, it won't be long before Statesman gets his own ideas as to how things should be, and starts waving around the nerf bat or something else and making an even bigger clusterfuck of the mechanics.

[Goronmon]

MMO development is notoriously fluid. Thus I have a really hard time worrying about potential titles this early in the process.

[Panthera]

It's funny how everybody commenting and reporting on this subject forgets that NWN was first an MMO, and it was definitely not developed by Bioware!

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3763/neverwinter.jpg

[J Arcane]

Try releasing that game now, and see how well it would do.

[Widgetcraft]

Yeah, dump more money into MMOs, that's the ticket!

It's funny how everybody commenting and reporting on this subject forgets that NWN was first an MMO, and it was definitely not developed by Bioware!

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/3763/neverwinter.jpg

Paying by the minute FTL.

[kyrieee]

Someone make a necromunda game instead

[Vigil80]

I figured the 4e rules were practically crafted with game licenses in mind. They'll have to finagle with them to fit an MMO, but not nearly as much as the previous edition.

Some folks in tabletop circles call 4e World of Dungeons and Dragoncraft, anyway.

I'm concerned about how one dev house is going to produce and support three separate MMOs. Almost like they're taking the law of averages approach to game development. I hope they don't spread themselves too thin.

[DoctorFinger]

I also love how Atari seems to be betting their entire future on MMOs. It's like investing in your future by buying lotto tickets.

[Hotcod]

atari where heading for the bin anyway so i think while they still have a shot left they might as well take it

[Panthera]

I also love how Atari seems to be betting their entire future on MMOs. It's like investing in your future by buying lotto tickets.

No, that's making games in general.

[ShivaX]

I figured the 4e rules were practically crafted with game licenses in mind. They'll have to finagle with them to fit an MMO, but not nearly as much as the previous edition.

Some folks in tabletop circles call 4e World of Dungeons and Dragoncraft, anyway.

I'm concerned about how one dev house is going to produce and support three separate MMOs. Almost like they're taking the law of averages approach to game development. I hope they don't spread themselves too thin.

The way 4E is structured makes it basically impossible to do it real time. 75% of all the abilities in the game focus on sliding, shifting and pushing your target so many squares its simply insane. You can't really do that in real time and not have it be stupid or terrible.

People compared it to MMOs because they adopted the concepts of tanks, healers, DPS and crowd control for classes as well as the ability system. The game itself plays very much like a board game like Descent and almost nothing like WoW.

[DoctorFinger]

No, that's making games in general.Not nearly to the same degree though. They can lose and make money, but to the same extent an MMO can. And banking a company's entire future on having 3 different MMOs is nuts.

[Deadend]

I think it could be possible to move the game onto a semi-turn based system. As most MMOs are timer based, which isn't that far off from a turn. It's doable... but considering that Crypic is heading more towards action-gaming and ultra-customization... Dungeons and Dragons is either a great fit, or a horrible place for them.

But I will throw out an idea that could make it fun... AI Dungeon-master, like how Left 4 Dead has a director, which is a dungeon-master by any other name. Get the AI to do things like a good DM would do in terms of game flow.. maybe even flubbing a dice roll now and then to keep the players from being wiped, or to make someone who was doing bad have a great moment when they SAVE THE DAY.

But spending the money to make a competitive Fantasy MMO is kind of crazy for Atari, not even EA was going to deal with it, they canceled their Ultima X the answer to WoW before it was done even. Crypic will have to figure out what NWN will bring to the table, as the D&D brand didn't help D&D:O enough. They won't be able to out-content WoW, and they won't out PVP WAR, so what is the key reason to play it?

[BigJonno]

I'm thinking that they should have gone with Forgotten Realms Online. I reckon that'd excite the D&D fanbase more than NWN Online, still been recognisable to the CRPG players with no interest in the P'n'P game and would have been shortened to the rather cool "FRO." :D

I agree that any new fantasy MMO needs to find a niche. WoW has got PvE sewn up and WO PvP, just as Deadend says. I still think that there is a gap for an uber-customisable, very open game designed with roleplayers in mind. D&D does have couple of pros and cons for this kind of game. The feat/ability selection is huge, but it still has a very rigid class structure. Magic items are a big part of the game, but they're fairly generic, so the game could have a wide variety of equipment appearances, with a smaller pool of ability sets. 4th ed also makes a big deal about what weapons and armour are made of, which lends itself brilliantly to crafting, very much in a UO vein.

Just on a side note, why has no-one done a modular crafting system in a fantasy MMO? In UO, the higher your skill, the better the metal you could use, which was pretty cool. What about having blacksmiths learn different weapon types, different weapon designs (like NWN where you could build a sword from a choice of blades, hilts and pommels,) different materials and eventually different enchantments? Surely it can't be hard to develop and you get much more variety for your artist's effort if they create 10 blades, 10 hilts and 10 pommels as opposed to 10 complete swords. Anyway...

The other thing that D&D 4th ed has that lends itself to doing something different for an MMO is that it has a solid, if simplistic, rules system for non-combat challenges and encounters. The skill system is almost entirely seperate from the combat system, though some skills have combat-related uses, so players aren't going to worry about gimping their rogue by taking some social skills. It's something that hasn't really been done before, unless you count Vanguard's social card game.

[Panthera]

The way 4E is structured makes it basically impossible to do it real time. 75% of all the abilities in the game focus on sliding, shifting and pushing your target so many squares its simply insane. You can't really do that in real time and not have it be stupid or terrible.

People compared it to MMOs because they adopted the concepts of tanks, healers, DPS and crowd control for classes as well as the ability system. The game itself plays very much like a board game like Descent and almost nothing like WoW.

I agree about the part of it being impossible to implement faithfully in real time. As for comparing it to MMOs, I'll also add that it's because the abilities are a lot more game-y. While previous editions have feats and abilities that are easy to visualize and might make some small amount of real world sense, 4th edition doesn't even try to make any sense. That's fine for some people, but for people who are used to heavier RPGs, it just doesn't fly. Board game comparisons are also apt.

[Telefrog]

I agree about the part of it being impossible to implement faithfully in real time. As for comparing it to MMOs, I'll also add that it's because the abilities are a lot more game-y. While previous editions have feats and abilities that are easy to visualize and might make some small amount of real world sense, 4th edition doesn't even try to make any sense. That's fine for some people, but for people who are used to heavier RPGs, it just doesn't fly. Board game comparisons are also apt.

I agree. I think 4E plays like a tactical boardgame moreso than before, and many of the mechanics (like everyone getting "healing surges") remind people of video game features. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to longtime players of D&D that enjoyed the old min/max gameplay, I think it was quite shocking.

[Lithium Flower]

No! Not another MMO! Please God no!

[Chaos Machine]

I agree. I think 4E plays like a tactical boardgame moreso than before, and many of the mechanics (like everyone getting "healing surges") remind people of video game features. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but to longtime players of D&D that enjoyed the old min/max gameplay, I think it was quite shocking.

problem was imo 3x rules were broken because of how much min/maxing effected your game, like keen scythe weaponmaster/barbarians, you could wreck anything you could crit in one hit, throw some cleave in there and you were slaughtering shit in melee. Granted if you were fighting things immune to crit you werent nearly as effective but the point remains. when i first started getting into dnd after a 10 year hiatus i knew something was wrong when my friends were picking my builds apart in order to "help" me not fuck up my character.

[BigJonno]

problem was imo 3x rules were broken because of how much min/maxing effected your game, like keen scythe weaponmaster/barbarians, you could wreck anything you could crit in one hit, throw some cleave in there and you were slaughtering shit in melee. Granted if you were fighting things immune to crit you werent nearly as effective but the point remains. when i first started getting into dnd after a 10 year hiatus i knew something was wrong when my friends were picking my builds apart in order to "help" me not fuck up my character.

I'm really glad I didn't play 3x with anyone like this apart from one guy a couple of years ago, who I refused to play with again.

Talk about sucking the fun out of a game.

[SilentScreams]

No! Not another MMO! Please God no!

Hardly the end of the world you make it sound like. You could always just ignore it. ;)

[Lithium Flower]

Can't ignore it actually since I've been desperately waiting to see a 4E cRPG and this is a fucking nightmare! :(

[Widgetcraft]

3.x wasn't just bad because of people who min-maxed, but also because it allowed some people to go nuts and make a really "funny" character that was dead weight on a party. What I want when I play is a middle ground where everyone is useful, and no one is overpowered. That just wasn't 3.x