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View Full Version : Reggie on Crack? - Nintendo Can “Win Over The Halo Audience”


Chris_D
06-08-2009, 07:52 AM
From Edge-Online (http://www.edge-online.com/news/nintendo-can-“win-over-the-halo-audience”):


Nintendo of America president Reggie Fils-Aime has outlined the company’s growth strategy, which includes attracting hardcore gamers to the Wii in the near-term.



“We think we [can] win over the Halo audience with something like The Conduit, a multi-player, online, shooting experience, or Dead Space Extraction.”


OK, the "on crack" part is just hyperbole. But does anyone think that a 360 or PS3 owner is really going to be converted by a game like The Conduit? The 360 owner has access to games like (the real) Dead Space, Bioshock, COD4, Orange Box, Rainbow 6: Vegas, Halo 3, and Gears of War. PS3 owners could be playing Resistance, Dead Space, Orange Box, COD4, Uncharted, Rainbow 6: Vegas or Killzone 2. You also have excellent shooter / RPG hybrids like Mass Effect and Fallout 3.

Any thoughts?

Source: Edge-Online (http://www.edge-online.com/news/nintendo-can-“win-over-the-halo-audience”).

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 07:56 AM
It's PR, I doubt he really believes that. One shooter (and a rail shooter) aren't going to win over an entire demographic, especially when there isn't much more on the system after those games that would fit in with that set of tastes. Both look good, but what are they going to play after those that's going to keep them coming back instead of just putting the Wii back down in favor of the PS3/360.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 08:01 AM
Some free advice to Reggie. You want to attract 'core' gamers?

Let us play your damn games online.

It doesn't have to be every game, but a significant part of your game output should allow online play. Its something that the vast majority of core gamers now take for granted, and Nintendo's "online play is a fad" policy alienates those gamers.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 08:05 AM
Some free advice to Reggie. You want to attract 'core' gamers?

Let us play your damn games online.

It doesn't have to be every game, but a significant part of your game output should allow online play. Its something that the vast majority of core gamers now take for granted, and Nintendo's "online play is a fad" policy alienates those gamers.
Their focus is local multiplayer, which is something I can respect. Just as much as you can criticize them for not having online play in their games most "hardcore" devs leave out any and all local multiplayer, which is just as bad if not worse depending on your tastes.

Zero
06-08-2009, 08:10 AM
Their focus is local multiplayer, which is something I can respect. Just as much as you can criticize them for not having online play in their games most "hardcore" devs leave out any and all local multiplayer, which is just as bad if not worse depending on your tastes.

This is true, I've soured on several games because of their lack of local.

total
06-08-2009, 08:23 AM
Their focus is local multiplayer, which is something I can respect. Just as much as you can criticize them for not having online play in their games most "hardcore" devs leave out any and all local multiplayer, which is just as bad if not worse depending on your tastes.

While I agree to an extent, Nintendo's online presence is a complete joke. I think a majority of the "hardcore," audience is looking to play their games with someone...and the easiest way to do that (all the time) is online. Microsoft got that this generation and that is why Xbox Live is such a huge hit for them. I don't think Nintendo (or Sony to an extent) really "get it," when it comes to an online experience. Honestly I think it comes down to the cultural barrier. Japanese players tend to play more with someone next to them, whereas Westerners have a tendency to play more online. If Nintendo wants to capture a bigger chunk of that market, they are going to have to provide an online solution that doesn't feel tacked on.

Chris_D
06-08-2009, 08:31 AM
Actually, Japanese gamers tend to play alone. Although kids are big into adhoc wireless multiplayer on PSP and DS.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 08:35 AM
While I agree to an extent, Nintendo's online presence is a complete joke. I think a majority of the "hardcore," audience is looking to play their games with someone...and the easiest way to do that (all the time) is online. Microsoft got that this generation and that is why Xbox Live is such a huge hit for them. I don't think Nintendo (or Sony to an extent) really "get it," when it comes to an online experience. Honestly I think it comes down to the cultural barrier. Japanese players tend to play more with someone next to them, whereas Westerners have a tendency to play more online. If Nintendo wants to capture a bigger chunk of that market, they are going to have to provide an online solution that doesn't feel tacked on.
I can understand that, but I completely disagree that in order to be "hardcore" a game needs to have online play.

Now, in the context of this article, yeah, that's what they'd need to tap into the Halo crowd, as that game is all about the online multiplayer.

Superman's Dead
06-08-2009, 08:35 AM
I think Dead Space with something like Wii Motion Plus would be amazing. In all honesty I'd probably prefer to play through the game like that, seamless HUD and all. The Ripper just BEGS for a Wii controller, in my opinion, and that was my favorite weapon of the ame.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 08:36 AM
Their focus is local multiplayer, which is something I can respect. Just as much as you can criticize them for not having online play in their games most "hardcore" devs leave out any and all local multiplayer, which is just as bad if not worse depending on your tastes.
A focus on local MP doesn't mean they can't do online play. And you can knock western devs for ignoring local. But there are a lot more PS3/360 games with local than there are Wii games with online play.

Telefrog
06-08-2009, 08:45 AM
Online multiplayer is huge to the shooter crowd, but I think the biggest hurdle for the Wii is the lack of graphics horsepower. The Conduit looks really good - for a Wii game. As long as the PS3 and the 360 are around pushing polygons five times faster and harder than the Wii, Nintendo will have a huge disadvantage with the "hardcore" shooter crowd. Let's face it, when it comes to shooters, most of us are graphics whores.

Orca
06-08-2009, 08:51 AM
The notion that the 'Halo crowd' could find something on the Wii that makes them buy it isn't ridiculous - the notion that they'll then run out and buy Wii Fit...that is.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 08:59 AM
The lack of online in most Wii games is what hurts it for me too, but I'd like to point out that the game that I think currently does it best on the Wii is in fact a "hardcore" shooter. Call of Duty: World at War's Wii implementation is a very respectable replication of what you get with that game on the other consoles and on the PC. Character progression, perks, near-instant game matching, pretty much lag-free play... it all works really, really well. The lack of voice chat is a bummer and there are some missing game modes, but for hopping online and shooting dudes it plays great. I'm hoping The Conduit joins it in being a really fun online FPS experience.

As for "capturing the Halo crowd", I'm not a member OF the Halo crowd, but I have been playing FPS games online since Quakeworld and the original Team Fortress mod, and I can tell you this: having played World at War on all three available iterations (and I think it's probably the best available comparison game to use, since it exists on all three and was given loving care on each), my order of preference for playing it is this: PC, Wii, 360.

The Wii version doesn't match the PC version in terms of features or controls, but it comes surprisingly close, and if the PC version disappeared tomorrow I would much rather play with the controls of the Wii and sacrifice the graphics and extra features of the 360. I just don't like the way FPS games control with dual-analog, and never have. When done right, Wii FPS controls are simply more enjoyable for me to use. Also, in the case of games designed to blend FPS with motion control in entertaining ways (Red Steel 2, I hope I hope I hope), you can get FPS experiences you simply couldn't have anywhere else.

So while I don't think "capturing the Halo crowd" is a realistic expectation for the Wii, I do suspect there are plenty of other gamers like me out there who - if the devs can get their shit together on the online front - will be happy to pick up good shooters on the Wii either alongside of or instead of the 360/PS3 versions (or even better, Wii-exclusive ones like Conduit) simply for the controls.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 09:06 AM
The notion that the 'Halo crowd' could find something on the Wii that makes them buy it isn't ridiculous - the notion that they'll then run out and buy Wii Fit...that is.The 'Halo crowd', as I think you use the term, are just another type of casual gamer. They're the frat-like guys who own exactly three games: Halo, the newest Madden and either Rock Band or Guitar Hero. Functionally they're no different than the motherly type who only owns Wii Sport, Wii Play and Wii Fit.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:11 AM
Online multiplayer is huge to the shooter crowd, but I think the biggest hurdle for the Wii is the lack of graphics horsepower. The Conduit looks really good - for a Wii game. As long as the PS3 and the 360 are around pushing polygons five times faster and harder than the Wii, Nintendo will have a huge disadvantage with the "hardcore" shooter crowd. Let's face it, when it comes to shooters, most of us are graphics whores.

The problem is the Wii is conceptually flawed from the perspective of most hardcore gamers. It is the first system built without them in mind. Hardcore gamers want to play traditional games and want to see their favorite style of game advance and offer something new. This requires sophisticated tech that can handle more complex environments, artificial intelligence, and graphical detail. It isn't just about graphics, that is only one part of what more sophisticated hardware does.

The controller on the Wii is also less than ideal for most traditional games. Your hands only have immediate accesses to around four buttons without it being awkward. And no hardcore gamer wants to see these replaced with gesture controls.

Simply put the Wii CAN'T attract more hardcore gamers. It doesn't matter what games come out. It is the system itself that is flawed and handicapped from the hardcore gamers perspective. If Nintendo wants that audience back, they need a new system. The Wii will never cut it.

quidmonkey
06-08-2009, 09:12 AM
Meh. Plenty (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8768) I'm interested in this year.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 09:16 AM
The problem is the Wii is conceptually flawed from the perspective of most hardcore gamers. It is the first system built without them in mind. Hardcore gamers want to play traditional games and want to see their favorite style of game advance and offer something new. This requires sophisticated tech that can handle more complex environments, artificial intelligence, and graphical detail. It isn't just about graphics, that is only one part of what more sophisticated hardware does.

The controller on the Wii is also less than ideal for most traditional games. Your hands only have immediate accesses to around four buttons without it being awkward. And no hardcore gamer wants to see these replaced with gesture controls.

Simply put the Wii CAN'T attract more hardcore gamers. It doesn't matter what games come out. It is the system itself that is flawed and handicapped from the hardcore gamers perspective. If Nintendo wants that audience back, they need a new system. The Wii will never cut it.
I can't say I agree. You can have hardcore games on the Wii just fine, such as the Sakura Taisen game that's coming out later this year. The problem is we just don't get them. You don't need 15 buttons to do a game that's directed at a more hardcore market, or have a complicated physics engine. You just need good, solid, challenging gameplay that doesn't baby you, and so far on the Wii we're not seeing it much. You can make a hardcore game on the Wii just as you could on the PS2/XBOX/GC last gen, we just aren't seeing them. Hell, especially RPGs, there's nothing about the hardware that's stopping anyone from making a hardcore RPG for the Wii. Just look at Persona 3 and 4, probably the best RPGs to come out for any console in the past 2 years and they're on hardware less powerful than the Wii.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:17 AM
Meh. Plenty (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8768) I'm interested in this year.

See, I own a Wii and I look at that list and I see games in genres I liked that are just gimped versions of better stuff I can get on the PS3 or the 360. The one exception being "Little Kings Story," which I actually would like to play but not at the expense of the time I would use playing all the awesome PS3 and 360 games.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:19 AM
I can't say I agree. You can have hardcore games on the Wii just fine, such as the Sakura Taisen game that's coming out later this year. The problem is we just don't get them. You don't need 15 buttons to do a game that's directed at a more hardcore market, or have a complicated physics engine. You just need good, solid, challenging gameplay that doesn't baby you, and so far on the Wii we're not seeing it much. You can make a hardcore game on the Wii just as you could on the PS2/XBOX/GC last gen, we just aren't seeing them. Hell, especially RPGs, there's nothing about the hardware that's stopping anyone from making a hardcore RPG for the Wii.

You don't absolutely need sophisticated tech to make those types of games, but given the choice, are you telling me you wouldn't prefer games with higher resolution textures, larger environment, more quick select buttons, and dual analog so that you can actually control the camera while you move? I didn't say it was impossible to make that style of game on the Wii, it is just that it is always going to be a gimped version compared to what you could get on the other two systems.

The bottom line is, any type of traditional game you can do on the Wii could be done better on the other two systems both due to controls and processing capabilities. It is the first videogame system to debut with drastically inferior hardware compared to its competition when it launched.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 09:21 AM
You don't absolutely need it to make those types of games, but given the choice, are you telling me you wouldn't prefer games with higher resolution textures, larger envioronmets, and more quick select buttons? I didn't say it was impossible to make that style of game on the Wii, it is just that it is always going to be a gimped version compared to what you could get on the other two systems.
Well, of course, all things the same I'd rather play the games on the PS3 or 360 with the better visuals. Really, why wouldn't you? But still, the Wii is out there in a lot of hands, more than the PS3 and 360 combined if I remember correctly, so there's a market out there at least in theory. I certainly wouldn't scoff at playing a Wii RPG that's superior in all other facets as opposed to one on the PS3 or 360 simply because of inferioir visuals.

quidmonkey
06-08-2009, 09:22 AM
You don't absolutely need it to make those types of games, but given the choice, are you telling me you wouldn't prefer games with higher resolution textures, larger environment, more quick select buttons, and dual analog so that you can actually control the camera while you move? I didn't say it was impossible to make that style of game on the Wii, it is just that it is always going to be a gimped version compared to what you could get on the other two systems.

Well duh. But graphics do not a good game make. If something good comes out on Wii, Ima buy that shit right quick. Same with my 360. The console debate is fucking retarded.

KSmitty
06-08-2009, 09:31 AM
The bottom line is, any type of traditional game you can do on the Wii could be done better on the other two systems both due to controls and processing capabilities. It is the first videogame system to debut with drastically inferior hardware compared to its competition when it launched.
Now there is no argument at all for processing power, but controls can be better implemented on the Wii. Anything that requires a lot of menu navigation is easier with the Wiimotes pointing capabilities. ANY FPS controls better with the wiimote+nunchuck than dual sticks on a standard controller and for some games (when implemented well) the motion control adds a layer of depth/fun/interaction that you just don't get on a standard controller (No More Heroes was a very fun game, but on a standard controller would have simply been a button masher). There are plenty of times when motion controls are shoe horned into a game, but when done well they are unobtrusive and very immersive.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:33 AM
I'm not trying to get involved in a system war, I'm just discussing the handicapped nature of the Wii. I've owned almost every videogame system that has ever came out since the NES (with the exception of the NeoGeo and the 3D0) and bought most on launch day and I always thought the system war stuff was stupid. But again, as I said, that was before a company launched a system with drastically inferior tech. Even the Jaguar had some graphical advantages and some interesting control possibilities (the overlays) compared to the SNES and Genesis.

As a hardcore gamer, the Wii is the first system that just seems conceptually flawed. So I can no longer say "all systems have their strengths," becuase I simply don't see any in the Wii except for its massive install base. Yes, you can make great games despite these problems, but this industry is so big now that it is impossible to play everything that is good even on one console. SThis isn't the 16 bit era where one good game comes out every month or so on all platforms combined. So, I'd rather only play what is best and more sophisticated hardware and more sophisticated controls do allow companies to make better, more sophisticated games. Not just in terms of graphics, but in terms of all sorts of other things they can do with those options.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 09:34 AM
Light gun games. Out of the box no console beats the Wii in it's ability to play light gun games. Come on, nobody can argue with that one. ;)

quidmonkey
06-08-2009, 09:36 AM
Light gun games. Out of the box no console beats the Wii in it's ability to play light gun games. Come on, nobody can argue with that one. ;)

d00d, Wii Sports. I'm sure WSR will be hot shit.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:40 AM
Now there is no argument at all for processing power, but controls can be better implemented on the Wii. Anything that requires a lot of menu navigation is easier with the Wiimotes pointing capabilities. ANY FPS controls better with the wiimote+nunchuck than dual sticks on a standard controller and for some games (when implemented well) the motion control adds a layer of depth/fun/interaction that you just don't get on a standard controller (No More Heroes was a very fun game, but on a standard controller would have simply been a button masher). There are plenty of times when motion controls are shoe horned into a game, but when done well they are unobtrusive and very immersive.

I disagree because I have never found the pointing controls to be as smooth and accurate as dual analog. My hands were simply not steady enough to keep pinpoint accuracy whereas I have no problem with dual analog aiming. And even if you have the steady hand of a true sniper, the controller is still lacking easy access to a lot of buttons.

And that is the fundemental flaw in terms of the Wii controller it seems to me, the lack of dual analog. Zelda drove me fucking crazy because I couldn't control the camera. I actually wanted to hunt down the Gamecube version instead just so I could use a Gamecube controller with it. Lack of a second analog stick for camera control in any 3D game is terrible.

In terms of the advantages of motion control, I just haven't been shown any convince me that it has any. Sometimes things don't register or register incorrectly, and you never have the precision of a button press. The only Wii game where I felt, "This is controls that feels better solely because of the Wii" was Boom Blocks. And that was a game I grew bored of after a few hours.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:42 AM
Light gun games. Out of the box no console beats the Wii in it's ability to play light gun games. Come on, nobody can argue with that one. ;)

Ok, there I agree and I love the genre. But the thing I was disappointed in when I played the first one I played on it was that it wasn't really aiming like a traditional light gun, I was simply moving a cursor around the screen. It wasn't actually getting video feedback. I was under the impression that this is because of th way the controller works, but maybe I am wrong. Did they find a way to fix this? are you actually aimming in modern light gun Wii games unlike the first ones?

Hawkzombie
06-08-2009, 09:43 AM
The 'Halo crowd', as I think you use the term, are just another type of casual gamer. They're the frat-like guys who own exactly three games: Halo, the newest Madden and either Rock Band or Guitar Hero. Functionally they're no different than the motherly type who only owns Wii Sport, Wii Play and Wii Fit.

Probably the truest statement ever.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 09:44 AM
Ok, there I agree and I love the genre. But the thing I was disappointed in when I played the first one I played on it was that it wasn't really aiming like a traditional light gun, I was simply moving a cursor around the screen. It wasn't actually getting video feedback. I was under the impression that this is because of th way the controller works, but maybe I am wrong. Did they find a way to fix this? are you actually aimming in modern light gun Wii games unlike the first ones?
I'm pretty sure you're just moving the cursor around and it's not "true" aiming. That doesn't really bother, me, though, but I can see how it would be an issue for others.

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 09:45 AM
The funny thing is I have a friend that believes that the conduit will not only be GOTY, it will be the Multi-player game of the year. He also believes that The Conduit will be the Wii's Halo/Half-Life/Killzone... I guess he believes PR bullshit.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 09:48 AM
I'm pretty sure you're just moving the cursor around and it's not "true" aiming. That doesn't really bother, me, though, but I can see how it would be an issue for others.

Maybe Wii Motion plus would allow true 1 to 1 aiming. If so and if the new RE Chronicles game incorporated it, I would buy it. That was the only thing stopping me from buying the House of the Dead compilation or that crazy Sega Spy game.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 09:49 AM
The funny thing is I have a friend that believes that the conduit will not only be GOTY, it will be the Multi-player game of the year. He also believes that The Conduit will be the Wii's Halo/Half-Life/Killzone... I guess he believes PR bullshit.
I like the Wii, but I haven't seen anything about The Conduit that would make me want to play it over any of the many, many FPSs on current gen consoles other than the fact that it's on the Wii. And that alone really can't justify it getting played over other games when time to play games is a factor.

Doctor Setebos
06-08-2009, 09:49 AM
The funny thing is I have a friend that believes that the conduit will not only be GOTY, it will be the Multi-player game of the year. He also believes that The Conduit will be the Wii's Halo/Half-Life/Killzone... I guess he believes PR bullshit.Yeah, even I don't believe that. :D

Telefrog
06-08-2009, 09:52 AM
The 'Halo crowd', as I think you use the term, are just another type of casual gamer. They're the frat-like guys who own exactly three games: Halo, the newest Madden and either Rock Band or Guitar Hero. Functionally they're no different than the motherly type who only owns Wii Sport, Wii Play and Wii Fit.

Sure, except I don't think Reggie was using the term "Halo audience" in that manner. I think he was referring to what we think of as the traditional "hardcore" gamer. The kind that probably owns more than one console, likes shooters, fighters, action games, racers, hot graphics, widescreen displays, collecting Trophies or Gamerscore, and blowing shit up. IE, the average demographic of CoG.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 09:55 AM
The 'Halo crowd', as I think you use the term, are just another type of casual gamer. They're the frat-like guys who own exactly three games: Halo, the newest Madden and either Rock Band or Guitar Hero. Functionally they're no different than the motherly type who only owns Wii Sport, Wii Play and Wii Fit.As someone who was in a fraternity in college where we played games like Halo, SSB and Mario Party, and who also has a mother who owns a Wii with Wii Sports and Wii Fit, I'd say you are very much incorrect with the comparison.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 10:02 AM
EternalGamer, obviously your points about processing power, graphical fidelity, etc can't be disputed, but your comments about controls are entirely a matter of preference and are totally up for debate. I wrote a big post right over here (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=282139&postcount=13) specifically about how I prefer playing well-made FPS games on the Wii over the 360, and why, and you seem to have essentially dismissed that position out of hand.

As far as I'm concerned - and again, I'm not a first-time player here, I've been playing FPS games since they existed - a well-done FPS control scheme works better on the Wii than it does on dual-analog, period. I understand that others may not agree with that, and certainly someone who's played a ton of dual-analog FPS games is going to be comfortable with that scheme and might not want to adjust. But the Wii IR pointer and nunchuk together simulate the keyboard/mouse FPS control much, much better than dual-analog can, and KB/M has always simply been the objectively better control scheme for first person games. It's quicker, it's more precise, it feels more intuitive. Anything that brings console shooters closer to that is, IMO, a good thing.

I also don't find the "limited" number of inputs on the Wii to be a concern at all, especially once Wii Motion Plus is involved and gestures are dropped less often. The 1 and 2 buttons are awkward to hit, I agree, but the plus and minus buttons are not, and the D-pad is not. So you've got C and Z on the nunchuk, A and B on the Wiimote, 4 directional buttons on the Wiimote, and (-) and (+), all in pretty easy reach. That's ten buttons, plus the IR pointer, plus shaking the nunchuk (shaking the Wiimote is usually not so good, but the nunchuk works great and actually feels really good for things like reloading / tossing grenades, IMO).

There's a lot of perfectly valid things to knock the Wii for when it comes to potential for a kickass FPS. Graphics won't be as good. AI won't be as complex. Multiplayer is almost certain to have less features (though again, World at War has done quite well here and I hope Conduit does also). But control is a much harder argument to make. It's very easy to support the position that well-implemented Wii FPS controls are an improvement over dual-analog, and in my case at least, I prefer them and make my purchase accordingly when both are available.

Widgetcraft
06-08-2009, 10:04 AM
Personally, as a hardcore gamer, I'm more interested in new Zelda, Mario and Metroid titles than I am a generic shooter. If they really wanted to make hardcore gamers go wild they would resurrect an old beloved franchise from the NES/SNES era, like Kid Icarus. Look at the reaction that Ninja Gaiden got.

I really don't get Nintendo's lack of interest in Kid Icarus. They already got all of the conceptual work out of the way with SSBB, and he seemed pretty popular in his appearance there. You'd think a full game would be the next logical step. Then again, SSB popularity didn't really catch the interest of Nintendo in the case of the Mother franchise either.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 10:07 AM
Personally, as a hardcore gamer, I'm more interested in new Zelda, Mario and Metroid titles than I am a generic shooter. If they really wanted to make hardcore gamers go wild they would resurrect an old beloved franchise from the NES/SNES era, like Kid Icarus. Look at the reaction that Ninja Gaiden got.
I think issues arise when people try to pidgeon-hole the term "hardcore gamer". Hardcore gamers are mainly people who are passionate about gaming, but may have entirely different tastes. Just because someone only likes RTS titles, doesn't mean they are less of a hardcore gamer than someone who only likes old school platformers.

Plus, as the generations grow up, there will be a smaller percentage of gamers who have close ties to the Mario and Zelda games.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 10:10 AM
I think issues arise when people try to pidgeon-hole the term "hardcore gamer". Hardcore gamers are mainly people who are passionate about gaming, but may have entirely different tastes. Just because someone only likes RTS titles, doesn't mean they are less of a hardcore gamer than someone who only likes old school platformers.
Agreed. I know a lot of people around here assoiate hardcore gaming with gaming online with others. I, mostly, couldn't care about playing online for most games, but I don't know what you'd call 105 hours in Persona 3 other than hardcore. Insane, maybe? ;)
Plus, as the generations grow up, there will be a smaller percentage of gamers who have close ties to the Mario and Zelda games.
I would agree with that if those franchises didn't still sell very well. Just look at NSMB, that can't be selling only to those looking for a nostalgia trip.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 10:12 AM
I would agree with that if those franchises didn't still sell very well. Just look at NSMB, that can't be selling only to those looking for a nostalgia trip.NSMB sold well because it a very well-designed, accessible title that was fun to play. My sister enjoyed it a lot even if she could not care less that the main character was a guy named Mario.

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 10:13 AM
I like the Wii, but I haven't seen anything about The Conduit that would make me want to play it over any of the many, many FPSs on current gen consoles other than the fact that it's on the Wii. And that alone really can't justify it getting played over other games when time to play games is a factor.

The only cool thing about it is that it looks like Perfect dark... kinda. But PD is coming to XBLA, so I'm not interested in The Conduit.

Yeah, even I don't believe that. :D

Well the dude is about the biggest Nintendo fanboy I know. He keeps saying that Nintendo is finally "getting" online, and will eventually have something as good or better then XBLA or the PSN. :eek:

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 10:15 AM
NSMB sold well because it a very well-designed, accessible title that was fun to play. My sister enjoyed it a lot even if she could not care less that the main character was a guy named Mario.
Well, yeah, but the kids that's selling to today are the older gamers of 10 years from now that are nostalgic for that game they loved when they were younger.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 10:20 AM
As someone who was in a fraternity in college where we played games like Halo, SSB and Mario Party, and who also has a mother who owns a Wii with Wii Sports and Wii Fit, I'd say you are very much incorrect with the comparison.I didn't mean to tar all frat gamers with the same brush. But why aren't my hypothetical gamers, who only own a bare handful of games, just like your mother in that regard? They each only own a couple games and tend to be intimidated by other genres. In terms of how they play is very different, but in terms of flat out sales they're indistinguishable.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 10:20 AM
Well, yeah, but the kids that's selling to today are the older gamers of 10 years from now that are nostalgic for that game they loved when they were younger.Why is this statement confusing me so much?

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 10:24 AM
Why is this statement confusing me so much?
Probably because I've had about 7 hours of sleep over the past few days so I'm not conveying my point clearly. I was trying to say that the kids that are playing NSMB now will grow up to be like those of us who are nostalgic for Mario when they're adult gamers, since they'll have that nostalgic tie from their childhood like many of us do.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 10:28 AM
I didn't mean to tar all frat gamers with the same brush. But why aren't my hypothetical gamers, who only own a bare handful of games, just like your mother in that regard? They each only own a couple games and tend to be intimidated by other genres. In terms of how they play is very different, but in terms of flat out sales they're indistinguishable.Nah, the sales are completely different. A "frat gamer" will buy Halo 1, 2 and 3 along with the map packs so that they can keep playing with everyone online. Or for sports fans, they buy every iteration of their favorite series, or close to it. They also enjoy a lot of local multiplayer as well.

If a "mom gamer" buys Halo, they buy the first one and see no reason to buy any others since they still enjoy the first one just fine and don't care about multiplayer. Obviously, Halo isn't the usual title in question, but I used for simplicities sake.

Goronmon
06-08-2009, 10:30 AM
Probably because I've had about 7 hours of sleep over the past few days so I'm not conveying my point clearly. I was trying to say that the kids that are playing NSMB now will grow up to be like those of us who are nostalgic for Mario when they're adult gamers, since they'll have that nostalgic tie from their childhood like many of us do.I'm not too sure about that. One of the reasons older gamers cling to those titles so much is that back then the library of games to choose from was comparably tiny next to today, and the library of quality titles was smaller still. You really got into a handful of titles back then because there weren't many alternatives.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 10:32 AM
Nah, the sales are completely different. A "frat gamer" will buy Halo 1, 2 and 3 along with the map packs so that they can keep playing with everyone online. Or for sports fans, they buy every iteration of their favorite series, or close to it. They also enjoy a lot of local multiplayer as well.

If a "mom gamer" buys Halo, they buy the first one and see no reason to buy any others since they still enjoy the first one just fine and don't care about multiplayer. Obviously, Halo isn't the usual title in question, but I used for simplicities sake.They're still buying a game or two a year (almost always a high profile release, never a quirky or indie game), whether my hypothetical 'Halo dude' or the 'Sports Guy'. Same as the WiiMom who buys EA Sports Active, WiiFit Plus and Wii Sports Resort.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 10:42 AM
I'm not too sure about that. One of the reasons older gamers cling to those titles so much is that back then the library of games to choose from was comparably tiny next to today, and the library of quality titles was smaller still. You really got into a handful of titles back then because there weren't many alternatives.
I can see that argument, but really, I can't say one way or the other where the tastes of todays young gamers lie as I've tried to cut down on how much time I hang out at elementary schools. ;)

Hawkzombie
06-08-2009, 10:49 AM
I'm not too sure about that. One of the reasons older gamers cling to those titles so much is that back then the library of games to choose from was comparably tiny next to today, and the library of quality titles was smaller still. You really got into a handful of titles back then because there weren't many alternatives.

Yes and no...I think it's all relative actually. Gamers who are really passionate about games are going to feel nostalgic for what was key in -their- time. For me, my childhood consisted of SNES even though I grew up with Atari and NES...the games I chiefly identified with were SNES because that was when I -really- started getting into games.

Gamers today may be overwhelmed with choices, but I think core titles, ones everyone can identify with, are the ones that we may find children becoming nostalgic for 10, 15 or even 20 years from now. NSMB is a perfect example of this.

But of course, it's also saying the amount of people feeling nostalgic will become a smaller and smaller pool as time goes on, only by the way of choices. Too many items out mean it'll be spread really thin, and you'll have these pockets of people who identify with one game of a time period, and others who identify with a different game entirely.

Kelegacy
06-08-2009, 11:02 AM
Winning over the FPS Halo crowd with an on-rails shooter is laughable. I love Dead Space...the REAL Dead Space. The Wii crowd is getting the dumbed down version as is typical. The Conduit looks meh to me as well.

But then again, I'm not a Halo fan either.

Zanzibar
06-08-2009, 11:07 AM
I played The Conduit at E3. The best way I can describe it is to lift a line from Hitchhiker's Guide, specifically from 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe': "Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a cow."

It looks really good, love the art style, but MAN the controls suck. Floaty aiming means your wrist muscles strain at the effort as you're trying to steady the reticle, and just forget about doing a rapid 180deg spin in close quarters. Hand-to-hand combat in the game consists of 2 guys flailing around until one guy happens to run in front of the other guy and the other guy happens to be pressing the melee button at the time. It's the worst of both worlds: it doesn't have the pinpoint control of KB/M, and doesn't have the variable-speed turn sensitivity of dual-stick controllers. It's a mess.

menage
06-08-2009, 11:08 AM
See, I own a Wii and I look at that list and I see games in genres I liked that are just gimped versions of better stuff I can get on the PS3 or the 360. The one exception being "Little Kings Story," which I actually would like to play but not at the expense of the time I would use playing all the awesome PS3 and 360 games.

I feel the same way, they're all excellent games in their own right. But if I had to pick I would rather play Dead Space on my 360 than Extraction on the Wii for example.

No way games like that are going to pull the hardcore to the Wii, and the Nintendo fanclub already has one.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 11:12 AM
NSMB sold well because it a very well-designed, accessible title that was fun to play. My sister enjoyed it a lot even if she could not care less that the main character was a guy named Mario.

Well sure, but having played that, she might then go on to play Mario Galaxy, and soon Mario Galaxy 2, and before long she does care that the main character is a guy named Mario, because everything she's played with him in it has been really good.

EDIT: I see Gorvi already kinda had this conversation with you. ;)

violent
06-08-2009, 11:15 AM
Well sure, but having played that, she might then go on to play Mario Galaxy, and soon Mario Galaxy 2, and before long she does care that the main character is a guy named Mario, because everything she's played with him in it has been really good.

There's another side to that page as some people have been Mario fans since the NES days but can agree things have been on a downturn since Sunshine. NSMB was great though because it really was more of what we had in the 80's. Old is new again and all that.

EDIT: I see Gorvi already kinda had this conversation with you. ;)

I'll have it with ya.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 11:17 AM
I played The Conduit at E3. The best way I can describe it is to lift a line from Hitchhiker's Guide, specifically from 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe': "Looks like a fish, moves like a fish, steers like a cow."

It looks really good, love the art style, but MAN the controls suck. Floaty aiming means your wrist muscles strain at the effort as you're trying to steady the reticle, and just forget about doing a rapid 180deg spin in close quarters. Hand-to-hand combat in the game consists of 2 guys flailing around until one guy happens to run in front of the other guy and the other guy happens to be pressing the melee button at the time. It's the worst of both worlds: it doesn't have the pinpoint control of KB/M, and doesn't have the variable-speed turn sensitivity of dual-stick controllers. It's a mess.

Hunh. Well THAT's good news. :( And really odd since they specifically said over and over again that controls were something they worked hard on. Maybe the setup was bad at the show floor. (And I believe they've specifically said there was a button for quick 180 degree turns, so that's strange too.)

Have you played the other well-done FPS control schemes on Wii? Metroid Prime 3, Medal of Honor Heroes 2, Call of Duty: WaW? If so, could you compare them? Lousy controls would certainly push Conduit from an instant buy to a rental for me.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 11:19 AM
There's another side to that page as some people have been Mario fans since the NES days but can agree things have been on a downturn since Sunshine. NSMB was great though because it really was more of what we had in the 80's. Old is new again and all that.

Agree that Sunshine was kind of a mess in many ways, but I think Galaxy is a surpassingly good game. The best 3D iteration of the series IMO, and Mario 64 is pretty hard to beat. It just does so many things well - fantastic camera with almost no effort, a ton of varied gameplay, lots of diversity in location and visual design. And it's just straight up fun as hell.

I'll have it with ya.

I am loved! :D

Ondo
06-08-2009, 11:24 AM
If they really wanted to make hardcore gamers go wild they would resurrect an old beloved franchise from the NES/SNES era, like Kid Icarus.
They just did that with Punch-Out.

I really don't get Nintendo's lack of interest in Kid Icarus. They already got all of the conceptual work out of the way with SSBB, and he seemed pretty popular in his appearance there. You'd think a full game would be the next logical step.
What makes you think they lack interest in Kid Icarus? If rumor is correct, they were working on it at Factor 5; it's hardly Nintendo's fault the studio closed down.

violent
06-08-2009, 11:27 AM
Agree that Sunshine was kind of a mess in many ways, but I think Galaxy is a surpassingly good game. The best 3D iteration of the series IMO, and Mario 64 is pretty hard to beat. It just does so many things well - fantastic camera with almost no effort, a ton of varied gameplay, lots of diversity in location and visual design. And it's just straight up fun as hell.

I think this part of the discussion is very relevant to the subject at hand. Reggie is talking about the ability to take the Halo audience. I understand that he isn't speaking specifically but rather the so-called "hardcore" market. I fall under that category. As great as I believe Mario Galaxy is, I always fail to continue playing it due to the control scheme. And let me add that I believe Mario 64 is the greatest 3D platformer ever. If the market they are going for is anything like me, the issue with migrating to a Wii as a full time game device is fundamental to their current success.

If they want to start taking over the core market, they need to update a few things starting with controller options and network infrastructure. It doesn't matter how much a person knows about games, it's sometimes easy to get caught up at the sight of fewer feature sets than competition. These though I consider imperative to even humor the market.

Widgetcraft
06-08-2009, 11:33 AM
They just did that with Punch-Out.

Which got pretty good reception, didn't it?


What makes you think they lack interest in Kid Icarus? If rumor is correct, they were working on it at Factor 5; it's hardly Nintendo's fault the studio closed down.

That rumor always seemed pretty iffy. Basically it's whole basis seems to be that Factor 5 have released a lot of games on Nintendo consoles (but none with Nintendo intellectual properties, by the way), Kid Icarus seemed sure to get a new game, Factor 5 closed down and Nintendo showed up at last year's E3 with nothing. The rumor also suggests that Kid Icarus would have been Nintendo's crown jewel for that year's E3, and yet they let Factor 5 just roll over and die? I don't think so.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 11:40 AM
As great as I believe Mario Galaxy is, I always fail to continue playing it due to the control scheme.

...If they want to start taking over the core market, they need to update a few things starting with controller options and network infrastructure.

Network I'm in complete agreement with. It's inexcusable that the Wii is so crippled in terms of online functionality. To be literally more than a generation behind your competition in such a basic feature just boggles the mind.

What about the controls in Galaxy bothered you, though? - or maybe more to the point, what do you think could have been changed? I think the IR pointer-based activities (shooting stars at enemies, dragging and firing Mario across gaps, blowing him around, etc) were done pretty much the only way they could have been, and I really liked what they added, especially the ability for a 2nd player to participate somewhat passively in the gameplay.

Waggle-punching, I thought, was minimally intrusive to the gameplay and alternated between being neutral and being a little bit fun. It was never great, but never really bothered me. I can agree that the balance minigames like giant ball-rolling or manta ray surfing were awkward and should have had an analog stick option, but they also didn't happen all that often.

violent
06-08-2009, 11:51 AM
What about the controls in Galaxy bothered you, though? - or maybe more to the point, what do you think could have been changed? I think the IR pointer-based activities (shooting stars at enemies, dragging and firing Mario across gaps, blowing him around, etc) were done pretty much the only way they could have been, and I really liked what they added, especially the ability for a 2nd player to participate somewhat passively in the gameplay.

Waggle-punching, I thought, was minimally intrusive to the gameplay and alternated between being neutral and being a little bit fun. It was never great, but never really bothered me. I can agree that the balance minigames like giant ball-rolling or manta ray surfing were awkward and should have had an analog stick option, but they also didn't happen all that often.

I don't think there was anything wrong with the control scheme itself, I just wished there was a way to play with a Wavebird. That's probably the biggest barrier between myself and the Wii at this point. The network is bonus after controls for me.

For me, the magic of the motion control died very early on in my Wii's life-cycle. It was fun to watch my movements translated but it became old for me quickly(This isn't a judgment on the device just my personal experience with it.) After that, I just wanted to play my games with a controller and once in a while play something motion based, not the other way around. I mention this because I think it's a similar barrier for many others out there in conjunction with the stigma that Nintendo has been fighting since the GCN that it is a platform for a child's games. An archaic perception but an existent one.

Kelegacy
06-08-2009, 12:08 PM
I'm a difficult gamer to please, at least by Nintendo's software side. I get sick of franchises eventually, and with Nintendo it's nothing but franchise sequels. They might mostly be great, but I do get bored with Mario and gang. Even the updates like Punch Out!! just aren't drawing me in. I want something completely new. Something bold and daring.

At least Golden Sun isn't an exploited franchise or character base. That's a good thing.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 12:08 PM
I don't think there was anything wrong with the control scheme itself, I just wished there was a way to play with a Wavebird. That's probably the biggest barrier between myself and the Wii at this point. The network is bonus after controls for me.

For me, the magic of the motion control died very early on in my Wii's life-cycle. It was fun to watch my movements translated but it became old for me quickly(This isn't a judgment on the device just my personal experience with it.) After that, I just wanted to play my games with a controller and once in a while play something motion based, not the other way around. I mention this because I think it's a similar barrier for many others out there in conjunction with the stigma that Nintendo has been fighting since the GCN that it is a platform for a child's games. An archaic perception but an existent one.

But again, the question then becomes, how do you design Galaxy without an IR pointer? Waggle is easy to replace with a button push, but not pointer stuff. The Wavebird would not have been able to do all the things they had you do in Galaxy - it would have become a different game.

I understand the resistance to motion control as "gimmicky", and it often is, but the Wii as a whole does do some things you just can't replicate with a standard gamepad, pretty much all of them at this point tied to the IR pointer. (Hopefully with Wii Motion Plus, that category will expand to include more sophisticated motion stuff.)

So I guess I'm not sure whether your position is "I would have preferred to play Galaxy with a standard gamepad" (which I don't think would be possible, it wouldn't have been the same game anymore), or "I don't think the new stuff Galaxy did was worth the change in control style", which I would disagree with but could certainly understand.

JayVe
06-08-2009, 12:17 PM
The 'Halo crowd', as I think you use the term, are just another type of casual gamer. They're the frat-like guys who own exactly three games: Halo, the newest Madden and either Rock Band or Guitar Hero. Functionally they're no different than the motherly type who only owns Wii Sport, Wii Play and Wii Fit.

This is a very true and insightful post. I know a number of people that have a system, and only have 3-4 games on it. In the past, it was the guy with Gran Turismo, Grand Theft Auto, and FIFA.

The 'Halo' crowd is a casual FPS crowd.

DoctorFinger
06-08-2009, 12:19 PM
But again, the question then becomes, how do you design Galaxy without an IR pointer? Waggle is easy to replace with a button push, but not pointer stuff. The Wavebird would not have been able to do all the things they had you do in Galaxy - it would have become a different game.I loved Galaxy, but there was almost nothing in the game (other than the star collecting) which required the WiiMote. Everything you used motion control for could have been executed just as easily with a button push.

violent
06-08-2009, 12:26 PM
But again, the question then becomes, how do you design Galaxy without an IR pointer? Waggle is easy to replace with a button push, but not pointer stuff. The Wavebird would not have been able to do all the things they had you do in Galaxy - it would have become a different game.

I understand the resistance to motion control as "gimmicky", and it often is, but the Wii as a whole does do some things you just can't replicate with a standard gamepad, pretty much all of them at this point tied to the IR pointer. (Hopefully with Wii Motion Plus, that category will expand to include more sophisticated motion stuff.)

So I guess I'm not sure whether your argument is "I would have preferred to play Galaxy with a standard gamepad" (which I don't think would be possible, it wouldn't have been the same game anymore), or "I don't think the new stuff Galaxy did was worth the change in control style", which I would disagree with but could certainly understand.

Well the Wavebird does have the C-stick. That in conjunction with the Z button could replicate a pointing device but that's neither here nor there. Controller implementation can always work in a myriad of ways. My thing is that in order to get the core market, you better be able to come up with solutions to some of their qualms, one of them being exclusive motion based controls.

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 12:28 PM
Wow the labels people slap on Halo is confusing. Some think it's too hardcore in the MP, some think the game is for casual gamers, and some say that it's for frat boys. I think the last one is a stigma, a stereotype, and a myth all rolled into one.
I for one am not a frat boy and play Halo, and all the guys I know that play Halo are not frat boys. If you want to call them mainstreamers, then I can understand that, but the frat boy thing is just as tired as the PC elitist thing. It's like finding out someone is from Ireland and assuming they are a drunk.

Halo is simply a very popular game for mainstream gamers. But they are also a lot of hardcore gamers too.

Anyways, that's all I got, carry on.

violent
06-08-2009, 12:28 PM
This is a very true and insightful post. I know a number of people that have a system, and only have 3-4 games on it. In the past, it was the guy with Gran Turismo, Grand Theft Auto, and FIFA.

The 'Halo' crowd is a casual FPS crowd.

Again, when he says Halo crowd I don't think he's talking about the 3 game owner. He's talking about 360 and PS3 owners, those people that play games not on a Wii.

Kelegacy
06-08-2009, 12:28 PM
I loved Galaxy, but there was almost nothing in the game (other than the star collecting) which required the WiiMote. Everything you used motion control for could have been executed just as easily with a button push.

Yeah, I was scratching my head trying to think of things that you couldn't replicate on a standard controller. I think the game would have worked perfectly with a standard controller. Besides the waggle spin-attack of the nunchuk anyway, but then again that was one of the things I hated.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 12:47 PM
I think the star collection and the shooting of enemies with stars in Galaxy would have been almost impossible to manage without the IR pointer. Trying to control that while doing the sometimes very intricate platforming the game required with an analog stick would have been a goddamn nightmare. Doing it with the Wiimote pointer, however, was downright pleasant. And as I said in my first post about it, it also let a 2nd player join in and be helpful in a very casual way, something I used with my family members quite a bit while playing it.

I suppose all the "drag and fling" or "blow Mario around" bits could have worked with an analog stick, though I don't know if I would have liked them as much if they were. Some of the novelty of them for me probably came from the physicality of using the pointer and remote. I guess I'm not sure on that, though.

My thing is that in order to get the core market, you better be able to come up with solutions to some of their qualms, one of them being exclusive motion based controls.

Perfectly fair point. I certainly think far more games should come with basically all the various control options - I mean, most "core" gamers who have a Wii also have either a Wavebird or a Classic Controller or both. There's really no reason not to have as many options available as you can.

Sandman
06-08-2009, 01:02 PM
Reggie doesn't get it. I don't want shooters and other third party crap from a a Nintendo system. I want the classic Nintendo first party games from a Nintendo system. That's what the older Nintendo systems were all about...good third party games were just icing on the cake. This is the crowd Nintendo should be winning over....or I should say winning back.

JayVe
06-08-2009, 01:13 PM
I want the classic Nintendo first party games from a Nintendo system. That's what the older Nintendo systems were all about...good third party games were just icing on the cake. This is the crowd Nintendo should be winning over....or I should say winning back.
What classic first party games are you not getting on the Wii?

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 01:18 PM
What classic first party games are you not getting on the Wii?
F-Zero
Pilotwings
Star Fox (A real Starfox, not a shitty platformer)
Kid Icarus
Mario Sports games
Kirby

I know those last two are stretching it a bit, but the first three at least would be perfect.

Doctor Setebos
06-08-2009, 01:23 PM
I was so holding out for a Starfox Wii announcement. Sure, the Metroid: Other M was a very pleasant surprise, but it's been a long time since we had a Starfox game that doesn't suck.

Sandman
06-08-2009, 01:30 PM
What classic first party games are you not getting on the Wii?

The first party games like Super Mario Galaxy, Zelda and Metroid Prime were all so long ago. Last year, we got nothing. This year we get Metroid shopped out to a third party dev. I don't care for Metroid Prime or the newer Ninja Gaidens though so that does nothing for me.

Oh and we got a hint at a new Zelda game which probably won't be properly announced till next year's E3.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 01:33 PM
F-Zero
Pilotwings
Star Fox (A real Starfox, not a shitty platformer)
Kid Icarus
Mario Sports games
Kirby

I know those last two are stretching it a bit, but the first three at least would be perfect.

Not sure what you mean with Mario sports games unless you're missing Mario Golf, since Tennis, Soccer and Baseball are already on there. The rest of the list makes sense, but on the other hand the Wii already has / has in the pipeline:

2 Mario 3D platformers
2 Zelda games
Paper Mario
A 4-player co-op sidescrolling Mario platformer
WarioWare
Metroid FPS (new and revamped) and Metroid 3rd person action
Punch-Out
Smash Brothers
Pikmin (revamped and new coming eventually)
Mega Man 9 (not a Nintendo franchise per se but something everyone remembers from its Nintendo days)
EDIT: Mario Kart (thanks, Gorvi.) ;)

Yes, there are some missing potential gems, but I think it's hard to make the case that Nintendo is somehow leaving its classic franchises behind or something.

violent
06-08-2009, 01:35 PM
I want a new Mario Golf for my Micro.

Gorvi
06-08-2009, 01:44 PM
Not sure what you mean with Mario sports games unless you're missing Mario Golf, since Tennis, Soccer and Baseball are already on there. The rest of the list makes sense, but on the other hand the Wii already has / has in the pipeline:
Time to take the ever annoying format of commenting on everything you've mentioned in individual quotes. :)
2 Mario 3D platformers
This is a very nice thing to see, though I wish it was a more unique take and not "just" Mario Galaxy 2.
2 Zelda games
I'd argue that the new Zelda for Wii will be the first "real" Wii Zelda game. I'm playing through TP now, and while I enjoy it, everyone knows it's a GC game that they retrofitted with some WiiMote controls. We need a ground up Zelda for the Wii, which is what we should get hopefully next Fall. 4 years into the console's life. :(
Paper Mario
Again, this was another GameCube game that was delayed so it could be retrofitted with Wii controls. Where's a new one?
A 4-player co-op sidescrolling Mario platformer
This is cool, and definitely welcome. They need to do it for Zelda again too. :)
WarioWare
Not something I'm interested in, so no comment.
Metroid FPS (new and revamped) and Metroid 3rd person action
This looks awesome, and for the second console in a row we're getting two Metroid games. I can't freakin' wait.
Punch-Out
For some reason I just don't care about the new Punch Out. I loved it on SNES, never played the NES game.
Smash Brothers
Not something I'm interested in, so no comment.
Pikmin (revamped and new coming eventually)
Now this does look cool, even if I've never played a game in the series. Again, though, this won't be until Fall 2010 like a few others, again 4 years into the console's life.
Mega Man 9 (not a Nintendo franchise per se but something everyone remembers from its Nintendo days)
This is on everything, though, so it doesn't count. ;)
Yes, there are some missing potential gems, but I think it's hard to make the case that Nintendo is somehow leaving its classic franchises behind or something.
You forgot Mario Kart, but I haven't liked the feel for that series since the GC game. MK64 rocked though, and the DS game is still fantastic.

I think a lot of the main gripe is that most of what you're mentioning isn't goign to be until mid to late 2010 and they're still missing a good number of franchises that many of us would like to see. That's just disappointing.

Urizen
06-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Read the first page of this thread and just jumped to this point, but...

Reggie saying this is no different from Sony and MS execs saying they are going to win the Wii demographic. Which is something they have claimed a number of times. Which is what they've presumably been spending tens of millions of dollars on. Which is what they've been failing at miserably.

I'd say Reggie might be the least likely to be on crack out of the three of them.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 01:59 PM
@Gorvi (The quoting stops here! Here, sir, and no further!): That's fair, I guess. I think Twilight Princess and Super Paper Mario are both very strong games regardless of what system they were originally designed for, so I don't hold those against Nintendo, but I see your point.

And don't get me wrong, if they DO announce a new, awesome-looking Starfox game or finally get Kid Icarus out there, I'll be super excited. I just think they're doing okay (well, obviously... sales numbers and all) and don't personally feel starved for first party content.

And you really ought to at least rent Punch-Out. It's really good. :)

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 02:51 PM
And you really ought to at least rent Punch-Out. It's really good. :)

Seconded. If you own a Wii and haven't at least rented it? Shame on you! Run, don't walk to your local rental place or PC and rent it. Rent now! Get on the grownd! Get on the choppah!

... Sorry bout that, had me an Arnie relapse. :o

violent
06-08-2009, 02:56 PM
Does Punch-Out work with a Wavebird?

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 03:00 PM
Does Punch-Out work with a Wavebird?

No, you have to use the Wii-remote to point and click in the menu screens. But you can turn the Wii-mote sideways and use it like an NES controller.

violent
06-08-2009, 03:01 PM
No, you have to use the Wii-remote to point and click in the menu screens. But you can turn the Wii-mote sideways and use it like an NES controller.

I've been clamoring for a new Punch-Out game for years. It finally lands and I don't want to play it. Nintendo, thou hast forsaken me.

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 03:04 PM
I've been clamoring for a new Punch-Out game for years. It finally lands and I don't want to play it. Nintendo, thou hast forsaken me.

Just curious, what is it that is holding you back? The control scheme?

violent
06-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Just curious, what is it that is holding you back? The control scheme?

Honestly, it's the only thing preventing me from really loving the device.

total
06-08-2009, 03:06 PM
And you really ought to at least rent Punch-Out. It's really good. :)

It's good for the 6 or so hours of fun you will get out of it. Once you get past the second circuit you've pretty much played the entirety of the game. Fun yes, but incredibly short. I was extremely disappointed with this title.

Wolvie
06-08-2009, 03:14 PM
Honestly, it's the only thing preventing me from really loving the device.

Well like I said, the only time you have to use the Wii-remote is using it as a pointer to select options and opponents in the menu screens, that's it. Once the fight starts, all you have to do is hit the A button and hold the remote sideways and play it like the NES classic.

violent
06-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Well like I said, the only time you have to use the Wii-remote is using it as a pointer to select options and opponents in the menu screens, that's it. Once the fight starts, all you have to do is hit the A button and hold the remote sideways and play it like the NES classic.

That's really not too bad actually but the problem is one of not allowing myself to be further invested in the Wii until things either change or I learn to accept the change in control method.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 03:31 PM
It's good for the 6 or so hours of fun you will get out of it. Once you get past the second circuit you've pretty much played the entirety of the game. Fun yes, but incredibly short. I was extremely disappointed with this title.

I defy anyone to beat Title Defense mode in "6 hours or so" the first time through the game.

I was a little disappointed by the roster initially, but once I beat Mr. Sandman and promptly had Von Kaiser turn around and hand me my ass? Different story.

There's not 13 fighters in this game. There's 26 fighters, it's just that 13 of them have the same name as guys you already fought but have now become brutal assholes. There is nothing "short" or "easy" about Punch-Out unless you want to ignore half the content.

That's really not too bad actually but the problem is one of not allowing myself to be further invested in the Wii until things either change or I learn to accept the change in control method.

Honestly, if you've been "clamoring for Punch-Out", this is your game. Feels just like playing the NES version, except all new and gorgeous and crazy hard in the endgame. I get the problem with the motion controls and I'm not saying I would buy a Wii for Punch-Out, but if you love the series and have access to a Wii, you should play it. Hold that Wiimote NES-style and go to town.

Farsight
06-08-2009, 03:43 PM
If Reggie is on crack, then Miyamoto is on meth:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/miyamoto-weve-got-5-years-experience

"The interesting thing about [these announcements] is it takes a great deal of experience to be able to create full gameplay experiences that take advantage of motion control,"

He should know - Nintendo still hasn't done it.

"We've been experimenting with motion control for over five years now, and based on the announcements we've seen here at E3, it seems like the other two companies have really only been experimenting with this only very recently."

Gamers everywhere would appreciate it if you'd STOP FUCKING EXPERIMENTING and make a good game using motion controls!

I hope Nintendo has invested their fortune well, because the Wii is this generation's Hula Hoop, except the hula hoop actually moved when you did.

Doctor Setebos
06-08-2009, 03:45 PM
Well, that definitely explains Wii Music, I guess.

Hawkzombie
06-08-2009, 03:48 PM
Microsoft's John Schappert told Eurogamer last week that having to hold a controller is "a big barrier to being able to get people to enjoy interactive experiences".

I can't begin to count the number of times being tied down to a controller has affected my ability to enjoy interactive entertainment.

Zero
06-08-2009, 04:15 PM
That's really not too bad actually but the problem is one of not allowing myself to be further invested in the Wii until things either change or I learn to accept the change in control method.

What control method change? You play it exactly like on the NES. :confused:

violent
06-08-2009, 04:16 PM
What control method change? You play it exactly like on the NES. :confused:
In regards to Punch-Out, I mentioned that the control scheme doesn't sound bad. That's what I'm referring to at the beginning of my reply.

Ravenlock
06-08-2009, 04:18 PM
...Did you know you were linking him to the post he was already quoting? :p

EDIT: I see you discovered that and amended your reply. ;)

violent
06-08-2009, 04:24 PM
...Did you know you were linking him to the post he was already quoting? :p

EDIT: I see you discovered that and amended your reply. ;)

Funny thing, I edited because I thought I answered the wrong question. I rephrased my answer with the same link. Then I looked at it and made the connection. I really should pay better attention.

Ultima Thulian
06-08-2009, 04:26 PM
I think Nintendo would have a better chance at getting the Halo audience if they had Halo, because I'm pretty sure the Halo audience enjoys Halo, or at least marginally so. I could be mistaken.

EternalGamer
06-08-2009, 05:06 PM
I recognize the creativity in Mario Galaxy, but it was never a game that hooked me. Largely because what I liked about the previous 3D Marios was the sense of exploration. Galaxy was pretty linear with lots of small little tiny planets connected via bean stalks and platforms. I got around 60 shines and quite. Each time I picked it up, I had a decent time, but I certainly never felt really compelled to return, some clever ideas but none that really wowed me. Some of the videos of Galaxy 2 show some pretty big planets with exploration, though, so hopefully they incorporate more of that.

As far as New Super Mario Bros Wii, I really hope they can get the balance right so that it works good as a single player game in addition to the multiplayer. Oftentimes making a game co-op just means watering down the mechanics and limiting the design to situitions where 4 playesr can play. For example, a lot of the really cool platforming concepts in Super Mario World would not work with having to balance it to have 4 players on the screen.

In general, though, like Kelegacy, I'm a tough sell on Wii software in general despite having owned one since launch. Not only would I rather be playing more advanced looking and more complex games with my limited game time, but Nintendo's nostalgia has worn off for me. I no longer care about their franchises like I used to especially since most of them have really stagnated. I mean, Zelda has become the same damn game that has the same new weapons/abilities that you collect every time (with a couple of new admittedly cool additions like the hoverboard and the ball and chain). Granted, I feel the same way about ALOT of sequels; it's not just Nintendo--I have been given no reason to care about "Halo: STD" or the inevitable "Gears 3: 10 Metric Shit Tons of Shit Tons." Just because I liked a game, doesnt' mean I want to keep paying $60 to replay it with new wallpaper every couple of years. But at least Sony and MS can put pretty looking wallpaper on their contrived sequels.

Call me when Nintendo decides to invent a completely new original IP that doesn't involve petting animals, pilates, or "clap your hands to music." I want to see traditional genres with totally new concepts--a new Nintendo adventure game, RPG, platformer etc with a completely new universe. Ganon and Gombas no longer excite me, they bore me. They already did two generations of childhood nostalgia for me with the N64 and the Gamecube, it doesn't work its magic on me anymore. It sort of like how Disney is this magical company when you are 9 and then you go to Disney World as an adult and realize that it is just a lame attempt to manipulate and propagandize unoriginal IP 90% of which is built solely around the "cuteness" of animals singing.

Urizen
06-08-2009, 06:23 PM
If Reggie is on crack, then Miyamoto is on meth:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/miyamoto-weve-got-5-years-experience



He should know - Nintendo still hasn't done it.



Gamers everywhere would appreciate it if you'd STOP FUCKING EXPERIMENTING and make a good game using motion controls!

I hope Nintendo has invested their fortune well, because the Wii is this generation's Hula Hoop, except the hula hoop actually moved when you did.

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/10/ps3_sixaxis_logo.jpg

mister slim
06-08-2009, 06:56 PM
Ok, there I agree and I love the genre. But the thing I was disappointed in when I played the first one I played on it was that it wasn't really aiming like a traditional light gun, I was simply moving a cursor around the screen. It wasn't actually getting video feedback. I was under the impression that this is because of th way the controller works, but maybe I am wrong. Did they find a way to fix this? are you actually aimming in modern light gun Wii games unlike the first ones?

It's a calibration issue. The game can't tell how big your TV is or how far from the screen the sensor bar is placed. Developers can build in a calibration system, which Ghost Squad did, though that can lead to the game being improperly calibrated.

Chris_D
06-09-2009, 03:06 AM
As others have pointed out on this thread, Sony and Microsoft have similar spins.

Edge-Online - SCEE: Wii Owners Will Upgrade To PS3 (http://www.edge-online.com/news/scee-wii-owners-will-upgrade-to-ps3)


Newly appointed SCEE president Andrew House has suggested that, over time, Wii owners will upgrade to PS3 as they seek out a console with a more advanced feature set.

“If you look back at previous lifecycles, like PS2 versus N64 [sic], we have lots of data that suggests that lots of people bought into N64 as their entry level gaming device, and were happy to upgrade to a more powerful machine later in the lifecycle when the price point was right for them,” the executive told Edge in an interview published today.

“I think we’re going to see this later on PS3, and the fact that it’s a Blu-ray player as well and that there’s a [greater] wealth of network based experiences than are perhaps available on the device they already have will add to the proposition. I think that will definitely be a factor in the marketplace.” Interestingly, Nintendo president Satoru Iwata said recently that the company had found no “significant reason” to release an HD-compatible Wii.

House also said that the PS3’s lifecycle could “significantly” exceed ten years.


I guess Reggie is passing around the crack pipe?

Ancalagon
06-09-2009, 03:16 AM
You know.... looking over at this thread (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=8825), I see it is possible to make games that appeal to "Halo" gamers on the Wii.

Nintendo just cant be bothered to do it. But hey, why should we criticize, they are making a packet from the soccer mom crowd. They just wont see me buying a Wii until it has more than motion control experiments, nintendo first party games, and cheap shovelware on it.

EDIT: That being said, Metroid Prime is appealing, but its only one trilogy of games. The Xbox and PS3 simply have far more titles to choose from.

RandoM51
06-09-2009, 03:50 AM
Nintendo isn't any more interested in winning over the Halo audience then they are in encouraging 3rd party development in direct competition with their own franchises. In the end this is just Reggie doing his job and Nintendo playing the game. A vocal minority complains about 3rd party development---particularly when Nintendo releases are few and far between---and Reggie pays lip service to the issue in various press releases/conferences. Same thing with online.

A focus on local MP doesn't mean they can't do online play. And you can knock western devs for ignoring local. But there are a lot more PS3/360 games with local than there are Wii games with online play.

Online multiplayer just isn't that important to what I'd guess is the majority of Nintendo's target demographic. Even among whatever coregamers are I imagine you'll find quite a few whose idea of multiplayer involves N+1 people on a couch.

Nintendo's online offerings are weak because online isn't as big a deal as the enthusiasts would have you believe. Nintendo knows this and budgets accordingly. It seems like a big deal to us, but then again most of us read online forums every day, have online subscriptions of one sort or another(Live, MMORPGs, etc.). We're little more than a special interest group with crappy lobbying when it comes to Nintendo.

Additionally, Sony and Microsoft have much more incentive to develop/encourage online content. They're fighting over the living room media portal and to win that battle will require significant online infrastructure.

One final thought: If we compare the sales of the most successful console games without online multiplayer to the sales of the most successful online-only console* games, what do we learn? :)


*Yeah, like I was going to leave you room to pick World of Warcraft for this comparison. :P

Goronmon
06-09-2009, 05:48 AM
They're still buying a game or two a year (almost always a high profile release, never a quirky or indie game), whether my hypothetical 'Halo dude' or the 'Sports Guy'. Same as the WiiMom who buys EA Sports Active, WiiFit Plus and Wii Sports Resort.I can't even think of a person at the frat back then that only owned a few games. Pretty much everyone bought a handful of games a year. And honestly, I don't think your hypothetical "WiiMom" cares at all about WiiFit Plus. Why buy the new version when the old version still works?

Ancalagon
06-09-2009, 06:12 AM
And honestly, I don't think your hypothetical "WiiMom" cares at all about WiiFit Plus. Why buy the new version when the old version still works?

They do it for cars and cellphones, no reason why it wont become "hip" to have the latest Nintendo toy.

Goronmon
06-09-2009, 06:24 AM
They do it for cars and cellphones, no reason why it wont become "hip" to have the latest Nintendo toy.I've yet to see any evidence that this is the case. Then again, I don't know any moms who think it's "hip" to have the latest cars or cellphones either, so maybe that's my problem.

Still, the "frat boy" gamer buys Halo or Madden because they enjoy those titles a lot, not because it's "cool" to buy them. So, I still don't see how the comparison works at all.

Purple Santa
06-09-2009, 06:48 AM
See, I own a Wii and I look at that list and I see games in genres I liked that are just gimped versions of better stuff I can get on the PS3 or the 360. The one exception being "Little Kings Story," which I actually would like to play but not at the expense of the time I would use playing all the awesome PS3 and 360 games.
This is my problem too. Except not only Little Kings Story which I want to play, but a ton of Wiiware. Except I can't rent Wiiware games. So my time is spent on consoles where I can rent more games.
Agreed. I know a lot of people around here assoiate hardcore gaming with gaming online with others. I, mostly, couldn't care about playing online for most games, but I don't know what you'd call 105 hours in Persona 3 other than hardcore. Insane, maybe? ;)

Insane? Not. More like a gamer who appreciates a great game :D. Now insane is the person who spends 140 hrs playing. Now that is someone who needs a life <insert "whistling not me" emoticon here>:D
I want a new Mario Golf for my Micro.
Oh hell yes!

This thread now has me looking at my Wii, wondering if I should go back and continue playing Zelda and Mario...talk about smoking crack...

Gorvi
06-09-2009, 06:55 AM
Insane? Not. More like a gamer who appreciates a great game :D. Now insane is the person who spends 140 hrs playing. Now that is someone who needs a life <insert "whistling not me" emoticon here>:D
See, now that is craziness. ;)
This thread now has me looking at my Wii, wondering if I should go back and continue playing Zelda and Mario...talk about smoking crack...
You never finished Mario? As much as I bitch about the camera in Galaxy, it's still a very fun game. I never felt the urge to go back and 100% it like I did with Mario games in the past, but it's still definitely worth beating. That, and the final boss fight is about 300 million times better than the lame fight at the end of Mario Sunshine.

Zelda? I went back to that now that I'm done with P3 and I've really enjoyed what I played. Sure, it's the same game since Ocarina, but it's still Zelda, which makes it very good. Play it! :)

Purple Santa
06-09-2009, 07:22 AM
See, now that is craziness. ;)

You never finished Mario? As much as I bitch about the camera in Galaxy, it's still a very fun game. I never felt the urge to go back and 100% it like I did with Mario games in the past, but it's still definitely worth beating. That, and the final boss fight is about 300 million times better than the lame fight at the end of Mario Sunshine.

Zelda? I went back to that now that I'm done with P3 and I've really enjoyed what I played. Sure, it's the same game since Ocarina, but it's still Zelda, which makes it very good. Play it! :)

I know I have P3 issues. I'm seeing a "game counselor" right now about it :p

As for Mario and Zelda...it's what Violent was stating about the Wiimote. I'm over it for the most part. I like it for some games...but I could live without it. However, i've found myself with renewed patience and forgiveness with games and was rewarded (looking at you GoW II) so i'm going back to see if I can get past the Wiimote dislike. For the record, I was enjoying Mario until I had enough with fighting Bowser and Mario movement feeling like pants around the ankles like speed. Zelda needed to stay on a non-wiimote...but i'm going to try again...

KSmitty
06-09-2009, 09:47 AM
IIn general, though, like Kelegacy, I'm a tough sell on Wii software in general despite having owned one since launch. Not only would I rather be playing more advanced looking and more complex games with my limited game time, but Nintendo's nostalgia has worn off for me.
What is your idea of a complex title? Not trying to troll here, I just feel that titles with true 'depth' are few far between on all systems.

I can't even think of a person at the frat back then that only owned a few games. Pretty much everyone bought a handful of games a year. And honestly, I don't think your hypothetical "WiiMom" cares at all about WiiFit Plus. Why buy the new version when the old version still works?
I think you are looking for a direct comparison where Doc was making more of a general statement. There are people out there with a HaloBox360, a Madden360, Metal GearPS3 or a Rockband360. I have seen these people, I know some of them personally. Doc was saying that these people, this audience of extremely narrowed gaming tastes, is no different from the much derided WiiToo crowd that only buys and plays the Wii ____ line of titles. Now obviously the Wii's group is larger, but the same segments exists on all 3 consoles. And the WiiMom will buy Wii Fit+, because Nintendo's marketing is very good about getting their games out into the minds of the general public.