European Politics

[JRR006]

I know, huge topic. :) This is just a call for general knowledge, things that I should really know. I'm depressingly ignorant. Anyway.

Are "left" and "right" roughly equivalent in concept in European politics as in United States politics? To me, "right" is fiscal conservativism and support for social values with a heavy Christian emphasis, while "left" means supporting policies that tend toward socialism and a certain liberal-mindedness when it comes to social issues. Basically the same?

The BBC is reporting that the elections "punished the left". I assume they're roughly the same ideas by the mention of anti-immigration parties gaining ground, and I've always understood 'Labour' as roughly equivalent to 'Democrat' and it seems that they did not fair well. If anyone can explain nuances of distinction I'd be interested.

[BigJonno]

Firstly, this is UK politics, not European politics. Big difference. Historically, the Conservatives (aka Tories) were the right party, Labour the left. However both parties have gone so far towards the middle that they're virtually indistinguishable. There is a third, fairly prominent party, the Liberal Democrats, but they've never got into power, as far as I know. No matter what they say, they tend to do the same shit, though I'll admit that Labour has been in power since I was 14, so it's kinda hard for me to make a fair comparison.

What's happened in this election (which was for members of the European parliament) is that Labour have lost a lot of seats and the Lib Dems and Tories haven't changed much. This means that small, more extreme parties like the UK Independence Party (want to get us out of the EU) and the British National Party (racist, right wing motherfuckers) picked up a good chunk of seats.

It's also incredibly easy to see how they pulled it off. People are worried about unlimited immigration into the country, worried about the economy and worried about losing control to Europe. The big parties seem more interested in maintaining the status quo, so anyone talking about these issues is going to get votes. Of course the big expenses scandal helped, with people losing faith in existing MPs.

I got a flyer from the BNP a couple of weeks ago and it was scary how appealing it was, even knowing the background of the party. To the man in the street, being a member of the EU just means loads of Eastern Europeans coming over here to live off our welfare system (much to the embarassment of the Eastern Europeans who come over here to work and earn a decent wage.) I can see the economic benefits of membership, but I'd much rather we get those same benefits with stronger ties to the US than continued EU membership.

[CES]

The BNP picked up two seats in that last vote. That doesn't speak well of the collective intelligence of the UK people.

Incidentally, how fucked up must your government be that a right wing party that believes in putting "white, British people" first is an appealing option.

Fuck it, time to pack up and move to one of the colonies. I hear the weather is nice over in Canada right now.

[Raen]

I was just about to come and discuss this. The BNP got two seats (although due to the way the system works they actually came fifth with less than 10% of the vote in both of the regions they were elected to represent). This just makes me sad. The issue with this election is that generally the only people who are passionate about Europe are passionately against it, meaning that they bothered to turnout and vote when more moderate individuals didn't. This is shown far more significantly by the success of UKIP (UK Independence Party), although the backlash against the larger parties was almost certainly a factor in this election.

[Ancalagon]

Yeah.... British Politics...

Personally I think there is a greater difference between Republicans and Democrats than there is between the Tories and Labour. Both Tories and Labour want to be a part of the EU, they just differ in how much a part of it they want to be. And frankly, they all come from the same background, same upper crust schools, so there really is no difference. They are just as corrupt as each other. It looks like Brown and Labour have had their day, so the Tories will have their turn next, but honestly I'm not expecting much.

The backlash against the EU, and specifically immigration laws, seems a bit unfounded to me. My brothers girlfriend, who is English, says she thinks a large part of the sentiment against the EU comes from the fact that the English dont like the French. I dont know, I guess they arent ready to cede power of their country over to a foreign board. Personally I think the EU is good, but hey.

As for the BNP.... yeah they are extreme, so I hear. What puzzles me is that its illegal for most public servants, including Police, to be a member. Now, if their party message is bad enough for you to not want policemen to be members, ban the entire party. If not, I cant see why public servants wouldnt be allowed to be a part of it. Yeah so I can see why their message is not popular or politically correct, that doesnt mean we can dictate what political party public servants can join.

[Narradisall]

Personally I'm glad the BNP gained seats.

Firstly let me say, I hate them, would never vote for them and despite what they say they are all a bunch of racist bastards.

However, getting that out the way, the only reason they gained these seats is because of the complete collapse of Labour support. In some area's BNP lost like 3k votes on the last term, but labour lost like 100k, thus the proportion of votes in comparison, the BNP came out better.

I blame Labour for the shift to the right. They're are issues they should have been addressing which they have outright failed to do. The smaller parties tend to pick up these issues (but often have no idea how to do anything with regards to running a county outside of those issues) and run with them. Unless any of the major parties come up with solutions to them they risk losing votes to the minority parties. Which Labour, Tory and Lib Dem managed to fail to do.

Democracy, socialism and EU politics have become a bit of a joke here at the moment.

I was appauled at the way the EU electioning was handled. I had no information from any of the three major parties (only getting something from UKIP and The Christian somethign party), which goes to show how much they are actually bothered considering the EU Parliment you elect don't really do much as the Committee sets the legislation and they've never (despite our current PM promising) to hold a vote on the Treaty that puts us in it.

The sad truth is I fully expect to see Europe shift to the right a far way yet in the coming years, mainly due to the complete collapse of the left to actually bother to do anything to stop it. What they seem to be doing is pushing more and more people into the right.

Back to my original line, I'm hoping that the BNP gaining seats will be the kick up the ass the major parties need to realise they need to address issues that these smaller parties do in order to bring back the floating voters to them. The longer they don't, the more they'll lose.

[Ox]

And frankly, they all come from the same background, same upper crust schools, so there really is no difference.
Speaking as the resident representative of those upper crust schools, that's unfair.

Yeah so I can see why their message is not popular or politically correct, that doesnt mean we can dictate what political party public servants can join.
The government gets to operate by different rules when it's also your employer.

[DoctorFinger]

I think the elections in Europe and the UK were about the economy. Labour was in power in the UK when the economy tanked, and they were punished for it.

One question. Is the BNP as bad as I keep hearing? Because I've heard some scary shit, and I'm almost not sure I can believe it.

[SilentScreams]

I think the elections in Europe and the UK were about the economy. Labour was in power in the UK when the economy tanked, and they were punished for it.

One question. Is the BNP as bad as I keep hearing? Because I've heard some scary shit, and I'm almost not sure I can believe it.

Yeah, the BNP are pretty bad. One of my former friends joined them, and let's just say that is why he's a former friend. I don't actually know anyone who used to be his friend that still is. I generally don't care who people support as long as it's not the BNP.

I'm as against immigration as the next British person, but it's got nothing to do with race.

[ShivaX]

On 17 May 2009, the Telegraph newspaper reported that the BNP's leader, Nick Griffin, had branded Lance Corporal Johnson Beharry VC, a black Grenada-born British Army recipient of the Victoria Cross an "immigrant" whose bravery was simply "routine". The Telegraph alleged that the BNP website called Lance Corporal Beharry VC's award of the Victoria Cross "positive discrimination by the PC-mad government".[93] Lance Corporal Beharry VC was awarded his Victoria Cross in 2005 for action in Iraq, when he returned to his burning armoured personnel carrier three times, under sustained enemy fire, to lift out his wounded British Army comrades from the vehicle.[94] The BNP has denied these allegations.

Wow. What a bunch of great people.

Looking at their website is... interesting. I like how they have "manifestos" that have been pulled down right on their site.

[Raen]

One question. Is the BNP as bad as I keep hearing? Because I've heard some scary shit, and I'm almost not sure I can believe it.

One main policy of the BNP: Voluntary resettlement of all non-whites to their original countries (no matter how many generations they've been in Britain I believe). They also support policies such as denial of the holocaust. These kind of things are pretty bad from facist nut-jobs, but coming from a party which is gaining political momentum and now representation in a parliament is distressing.

[Ancalagon]

One main policy of the BNP: Voluntary resettlement of all non-whites to their original countries (no matter how many generations they've been in Britain I believe). They also support policies such as denial of the holocaust. These kind of things are pretty bad from facist nut-jobs, but coming from a party which is gaining political momentum and now representation in a parliament is distressing.

The crazy thing is, as a white born in South Africa, I should theoretically be deported too, I mean if they are pro British. Well, I guess my granny was born in Wales, hence why I got my ancestral visa, but I'm not a british citizen. Point is, deporting only non white is just silly. Also, as apartheid has numerous stories about, deciding who is and who isnt white is more difficult than it seems. They had a pencil test (this is no joke, completely serious). They stuck a pencil in your hair, and if it fell out you were white. Sucks if you were a white guy with curly hair.

I think they would get a lot more sympathy if they were less nazi party and more... just pro british. If they dropped the holocaust denial and racism they would get far more votes.

But then I guess it would show that they are really just a collection of ideas, and there arent any strong personalities to lead them to victory.

[Savok]

You can say it without fear of mockery, the BNP are the British Nazi party effectively.

Seriously, you guys need to get rid of Brown weeks ago, not only is he batshit insane but by being less popular then Stalin he's giving way too much ground to extreme wing parties which will only cause even more damage in the long run. Britain (what's left of it) won't last until the next election.

[BigJonno]

I think the elections in Europe and the UK were about the economy. Labour was in power in the UK when the economy tanked, and they were punished for it.

One question. Is the BNP as bad as I keep hearing? Because I've heard some scary shit, and I'm almost not sure I can believe it.

Hmm, how to put it simply? The BNP saying they're not racist is the British equivalent of the KKK saying they don't beat on black folk.

[Ancalagon]

Hmm, how to put it simply? The BNP saying they're not racist is the British equivalent of the KKK saying they don't beat on black folk.

In fact, some of their best friends are black. True story.

[DoctorFinger]

Hmm, how to put it simply? The BNP saying they're not racist is the British equivalent of the KKK saying they don't beat on black folk.
I'm just making sure. I read some British papers call John McCain a racist during the last election, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't the same thing.

[Narradisall]

I'm just making sure. I read some British papers call John McCain a racist during the last election, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't the same thing.

Oh, UK media has jumped the Political Correctness wagon and saying 'Imigration is bad' makes you a racist in their eyes. So I can understand how hearing stories of someone being racist can be hard to believe sometimes the way the media spin it here.

Needless to say, the BNP are racist though. They aren't near as bad as they used to be, but they would still do some nasty things given the power I do think the reactions to their minor wings is WAAAAAAY overblown though.

People make it sound like they are about to stroll into Parliment any day now. Heck it took Hitler about 5 years of solid dodgy dealing to go from 3 to 200 odd seats in the Reichmark. So I think we're ok for the moment.

One example is UKIP are being banded about as a racist party. They purely want out the Euro as its a corrupt, red-tape clusterfuck that costs billions every year and is actually pointless. I'm all for a Economical Europe. The problem lies in they want a version of a kind of Fed for Europe. Except the cultures range so much that setting one law for say making something illegal in the UK that could be a normal way of life in Poland is a waste of time. But because they want out of Europ it means they don't like europians, therefore they are racist.

Labour have screwed the pooch big time. I disagree with the above comments that because its a recession is why they are getting kicked out. You only have to look over what they promised when they got into power and what they have delievered.

People jump on Obama because his been in power 100 days and has already made u-turns and not delievered on some of his promises. Imagine if it was 12 years later and he still hadn't.

[Savok]

Actually Hitler's rise to power happened in circumstances rather like these, he never really had a majority, or even close to one.

[DoctorFinger]

Actually Hitler's rise to power happened in circumstances rather like these, he never really had a majority, or even close to one.
Does anyone get a majority in the UK gov't? Someone always gets a plurality, but the quirks of the parliamentary system make true majorities rare.

[Raen]

Does anyone get a majority in the UK gov't? Someone always gets a plurality, but the quirks of the parliamentary system make true majorities rare.

Labour currently have 350 (might be a little less if by-elections have happened) of 646 and have had a majority since they came to power in 1997. Before that the Conservatives had one for most of their time since '79 (was it '79? I think it was), but I believe between the '92 and '97 elections slipped (just) into a minority with defections and by-elections.

EDIT: It is worth noting however that before their landslide in '97 Labour had made arrangements with the Liberal Democrats for a coalition government. However this fell through quickly once the election results came in, living the Lib Dems pretty bitter and pissed off.

[BigJonno]

Narradisall basically summed it up nicely. Europe/immigration is the big issue for a lot of people. Unlimited immigration is not a positive point when you're already in one of the more developed countries with lots of government handouts and not in a former Soviet satellite. There are lots of figures showing that immigrants are behind an upsurge in crime. I remember a great one from a couple of years back when the top copper in Cambridgeshire came forward and said that dangerous driving and other traffic offences were up 200%, but the number of UK nationals commiting them hadn't changed. What happened? He was accused of racism.

There are large parts of my hometown that have become ghettoized and dangerous in the last few years. Our schools have had an influx of children who don't speak English and can be nigh-on impossible to control because they're used to corporal punishment and they just laugh at the sanction we can impose. Our already overburdened welfare system (fucking chavette baby farms) is now having to cope with paying for thousands of immigrants who turn up demanding homes, money and free healthcare.

That's before you even get started on the real problem of spending billions every year (in fact, Britain pays a disproportionately large amount towards the EU) to be dictated to by France and Germany.

That's your basic, man in the street viewpoint on Britain and the EU. Thanks to our wonderfully PC government and media, voicing any kind of concern about any of it immediately labels you as racist, despite the fact that many of the concerned voices are from immigrants who learned the language, worked hard and are valued members of society.

Now can you understand why the far right is getting a foothold?

[Narradisall]

Actually Hitler's rise to power happened in circumstances rather like these, he never really had a majority, or even close to one.

Oh I agree they happened in circumstances very much like this.

However, you are wrong with regards to the majority. It took him nine years, but over that time and his rather dodgy political tactics he went from 6% in the Reichstag to 43%, which with the nearest party, The Social Democrats at 18% gave them the majority. #Edit, On looking this up I realised I was wrong, he had to maintain a pact with the socialist party to have the 50% majority.

BNP have 0% in Parliment, and even if they did gain some seats, I'd hardly be quaking in my boots thinking they would be running the country next year.

Its political scaremongering, and pathetic for a ruling party to be partaking of.

I actually watched a report this morning where a Labour MP basically said that the reason people voted BNP and UKIP (I still disagree UKIP are racist) was that they didn't like labour much or their recent abuses of power, and that basically the electorate were too dumb to know what they were voting for. That is a pov I've heard repeated by a lot of people and even mirrored in a post above. I disagree, I think *some* people are stupid but I think a lot of people are voting for them as they are tackling issues that the main parties are completely ignoring. It would make good politics for them to tackle these issues and thus bring a chunk of the support for those parties back into the fold. Saying their all too thick to realise what they're voting for is driving more people towards them as Labour just dont "get it".

[BigJonno]

I do think that there are a hell of a lot of people out there who don't know about the BNP. I'm only dimly aware of asking my mum about stuff that was in the news in the 80s/early 90s and, barring the spike following 9/11, I've not encountered much in the way of overt racial issues during my adult life. Well, other than stupid shit like the Asian copper who sued because he thought he was getting passed over for promotion because he was Asian and then sued again because he claimed he lost respect from his fellow officers when he was promoted, saying that it was because he was Asian.

[Narradisall]

Yea, I wished politicising the police was made illegal. God forbid your police should be politically neutral....

I did some statistical work for the Goverment once, and the way the current goverment works things its safe to assume any figures they give you are an outright lie.

[BigJonno]

Didn't they stop the race recruitment percentages for the police force recently? I was happy to read that in the paper. The whole concept is almost as retarded as lowering the physical requirements for firefighters in an effort to recruit more women.

[CES]

EDIT: It is worth noting however that before their landslide in '97 Labour had made arrangements with the Liberal Democrats for a coalition government. However this fell through quickly once the election results came in, living the Lib Dems pretty bitter and pissed off.

Which was made all the more amusing by the fact that from '99 till the last election in Scotland (2006?) those two parties had a coalition in the Scottish parliament.


Let's just admit it now, the UK fucking sucks.

[BigJonno]

Of course the UK sucks. The tricky bit is finding somewhere that sucks less, especially considering that most of the large first world countries with lots of space and resources have relatively restrictive immigration policies. :D

[Raen]

Which was made all the more amusing by the fact that from '99 till the last election in Scotland (2006?) those two parties had a coalition in the Scottish parliament.


Let's just admit it now, the UK fucking sucks.

But then again your Scottish Parliament is just crazy :P At least it's more stable than the Northern Ireland Assembly (low blow, I know).

[CES]

But then again your Scottish Parliament is just crazy :P At least it's more stable than the Northern Ireland Assembly (low blow, I know).

Crazy useless you mean. Even more so than the chiefs in the main parliament.

And yes, low blow indeed. Deserved though.

Protip for parliaments: Don't let known terrorist associates be in your bloody government.

[Raen]

Crazy useless you mean. Even more so than the chiefs in the main parliament.

You know what I don't get? That your MPs can still vote on the stuff that no longer affects you. That's just crazy.

Protip for parliaments: Don't let known terrorist associates be in your bloody government.

It's so easy to overlook, but a big mistake when you forget.

[CES]

You know what I don't get? That your MPs can still vote on the stuff that no longer affects you. That's just crazy.


Thankfully they are closing that loophole so I don't need to hear my English friends bitch about it.

[Raen]

Thankfully they are closing that loophole so I don't need to hear my English friends bitch about it.

Oh they're finally closing it? Kickass :) Although it should have been closed as soon as they got the first points of order raised about it bloody years ago.

[CES]

Oh they're finally closing it? Kickass :) Although it should have been closed as soon as they got the first points of order raised about it bloody years ago.

Do remember which government you're talking about here. The mere fact that they saw the problem is a miracle.

[Narradisall]

Do remember which government you're talking about here. The mere fact that they saw the problem is a miracle.

I lol'ed.

It'll probably take them a few more years to see the current problems that are crippling them, by that time we're all be screwed...... and I'll be in Canada.

[CES]

I lol'ed.

It'll probably take them a few more years to see the current problems that are crippling them, by that time we're all be screwed...... and I'll be in Canada.

I hear good things about Vancouver. You can also get to Seattle easily enough for PAX.

[BigJonno]

Y'know I've always kinda fancied Vancouver. I think it was because I had really cool Vampire/Werewolf crossover sourcebook for the place.

[Narradisall]

Maybe we'll just all mass immigrate and set up our own UK slum in a nice part of another country. They have good healthcare in Canada, right?

[BigJonno]

Maybe we'll just all mass immigrate and set up our own UK slum in a nice part of another country. They have good healthcare in Canada, right?

We can demand that government literature is printed in English, but with the correct spellings! And start using words like "arse" and "bugger" and "you slaaaaag" all the time to protect our heritage. :)

[Savok]

Maybe we'll just all mass immigrate and set up our own UK slum in a nice part of another country. They have good healthcare in Canada, right?
Not in Alberta.

[CES]

We can demand that government literature is printed in English, but with the correct spellings! And start using words like "arse" and "bugger" and "you slaaaaag" all the time to protect our heritage. :)

I can just see the reactions in places like Calgary and Montreal already.

Funny aside: According to my former English teacher who is Canadian (obligatory joke here), having your car break down in Montreal when you can't speak a word of French is....unpleasant.

[boratika]

One main policy of the BNP: Voluntary resettlement of all non-whites to their original countries (no matter how many generations they've been in Britain I believe).

Sooo...If that comes in, am I meant to move to England? Or Wales, or Scotland or Ireland? Maybe all of them because I have ancestry from all of them. Some of me would have to go to the mainland. I'm ninth generation Australian, but ancestrally I'm very white-British. I guess they probably didn't consider the reciprocal obligation of this policy.

Just think how many people would need to move from the colonies to the UK.

Of course the UK sucks. The tricky bit is finding somewhere that sucks less, especially considering that most of the large first world countries with lots of space and resources have relatively restrictive immigration policies. :D

Or were already colonised by the Brits. Time for a recolonisation, I guess.

Maybe we'll just all mass immigrate and set up our own UK slum in a nice part of another country. They have good healthcare in Canada, right?

Heh.

[BigJonno]

Reading this does make me very glad I have fall back plan. Pretty much the only thing my father ever did for me was make sure I was officially a dual national. When things get too bad over here, I'm off to Australia.

[Savok]

Just stay away from Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia and the Northern Territory.

[BigJonno]

Just stay away from Victoria, Queensland, Tasmania, South Australia and the Northern Territory.

Wouldn't it have been easier to say "Stick with Western Australia or New South Wales?" :)

[Savok]

That would infer they were good choices :p

[BigJonno]

That would infer they were good choices :p

You just a big, fluffy ball of hate, aren't you? :D

And I mean that with the greatest respect and affection.

[Doogie2K]

I can just see the reactions in places like Calgary and Montreal already.

Funny aside: According to my former English teacher who is Canadian (obligatory joke here), having your car break down in Montreal when you can't speak a word of French is....unpleasant.

They'd probably throw a shit fit in Montreal (though less so than elsewhere in Quebec), but I for one would be happy to have a Little Britain here in Calgary. Maybe then I wouldn't have to wait five fucking years to buy New Tricks on DVD.

(And you needn't worry about spelling. We spell things properly, with their "u"s and whatnot, here in Canada.)

[CappinCanuck]

I can just see the reactions in places like Calgary and Montreal already.

Funny aside: According to my former English teacher who is Canadian (obligatory joke here), having your car break down in Montreal when you can't speak a word of French is....unpleasant.

They'd probably throw a shit fit in Montreal (though less so than elsewhere in Quebec), but I for one would be happy to have a Little Britain here in Calgary. Maybe then I wouldn't have to wait five fucking years to buy New Tricks on DVD.

(And you needn't worry about spelling. We spell things properly, with their "u"s and whatnot, here in Canada.)

The car breakdown thing is just a urban legend for the most part. It's something I hear a billion times per year. This was especially true during my school years, which just makes it even more obviously bullshit heh. If I actually split first-hand and second hand accounts, guess what, almost all first hand accounts of "incidents" in Quebec are positive. Anyway, back on topic.

The BNP message is appealing but only to a degree. It's populist demagoguery, the same kind that exists all over Europe and even North America (with slightly different undertones). Yeah, you can say that it's about giving control to foreign powers and traditional enemies, France and Germany, or about how the membership fees are too large, or even complain about Eastern European migration... but you know, it's all just bullshit. It's almost identical in every country... and it's always a smokescreen that doesn't address essential and immediate issues. Unfortunately, during difficult times, people find it tougher to think critically and see through the bullshit. I won't go specifically into all the justifications right now, mainly because it would take a long time, but I spent the better part of my MA working on transitional politics, policies and economics dealing with all these issues -- West and East Europe.

On a more fun note, anyone been noticing the huge decline in Eastern European migration? You might find the entire debate on the tail end of the E.European immigration curve. I have a few friends here in the Romanian community, in Toronto, and a significant portion of persons who recently immigrated are actually returning to Romania. They heard such amazing things during the 90s, they kept trying to get into Canada, but nowadays, Romania apparently is doing much better and even preferential to some. Anyway, just an interesting anecdote. I was expecting at least another 10 years of significant emigration when looking at the stats in 2004. We're hurting for skilled labour immigration, well... less so now with the downturn, but when things improve, we will once again. The UK might be in the same boat within the next decade and opinion will change.

[BigJonno]

I think the UK is still in need of skilled labour immigration, that's not an issue. It's the "coming over to the UK and immediately claiming state benefits and getting priority for council housing while having no regard for the country, its laws or its existing inhabitants" immigration that people have a problem with.

The fact that many of the people who are decrying the influx of Eastern European immigrants are Eastern European immigrants themselves is very telling.

[Crowe]

Reading this does make me very glad I have fall back plan. Pretty much the only thing my father ever did for me was make sure I was officially a dual national. When things get too bad over here, I'm off to Australia.

There is nothing wrong with Victoria.

[boratika]

There is nothing wrong with Victoria.

See, the problem vitrolians, is they are just so completely in love with themselves/victrola. It's like the only thing they can talk about. Just see the above post :pCourse, I'd sooner move back to Melbourne than Sydney.

[CappinCanuck]

I think the UK is still in need of skilled labour immigration, that's not an issue. It's the "coming over to the UK and immediately claiming state benefits and getting priority for council housing while having no regard for the country, its laws or its existing inhabitants" immigration that people have a problem with.

The fact that many of the people who are decrying the influx of Eastern European immigrants are Eastern European immigrants themselves is very telling.

I seriously doubt that is an accurate depiction though. It`s not accurate anywhere else in the world.

The same is true in Canada. One of the most vocal anti-immigrant segments of society is first-generation immigrants.

I`m sure it is true to some degree since it is completely normal and, should be, acceptable to have a higher rate of assistance among new immigrants. New immigrants do need assistance to start. It`s a difficult transition and it takes time for degrees to be accredited, for finding jobs in your actual field, etc. Let me tell you a story from my own life. I was an immigrant, and we were on welfare for 6 months to a year when we came over to Canadaland. This wasn`t that long ago, now we`re in the top 3-5% of the income bracket. Once I consolidate my income with my fiancee`s, we`ll be in the top 1-2% of Canadian earners. See, I`m one of those coming over to the `XYZ-country and immediately claiming state benefits and getting priority for housing while having no regard for the country, its laws or its existing inhabitants,` but that`s not very accurate, is it? The arguments are illusionary, that`s what makes them populist...

[BigJonno]

Okay, I'm not talking about you, I'm not talking about anyone like you. I'm talking about people who go to a different country to take advantage of that country. There are lots of them. I'm aware that I'm speaking anecdotally, but what else are you going to rely on, government statistics? The British government has consistantly produced figures on immigration that are a joke.

I really don't mean any offence to you. Many of my former workmates were immigrants and the school I was working in was always culturally diverse. However when you see dozens of children who don't speak any English dumped into the school with no extra funding, you realise that there is a problem somewhere. When you, literally, have to be made homeless before you can get government housing somewhere that you've lived for your entire life and know that being an immigrant would have got you housing almost within weeks, you know there is a problem somewhere. When crime rates increase, but crimes committed by British citizens don't, you know there is a problem somewhere.

My issue is that there are currently two political stances on the issue; pretending that everything is fine while sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the concerns of your constituents, or being a Nazi bastard. An extreme generalisation, but that's how it is perceived by the British public. It needs to be addressed, if only to show people that the government is aware of their dissent and to avoid people being driven to vote for racist extremists.

[Savok]

There is nothing wrong with Victoria.
Football is a religion, nay, THE religion, after which comes every other sport before anything else, like say Ham Plague as they keep fiddling the rules to allow the footy season to continue.

They're all obsessed with the world's most pathetic criminals. It's run by raving lunatics. Nothing works, not even the fire departments. Melbourne is the ugliest city in the world, it's also got one of the highest concentrations of wankers in the country.

The place is a hole, if there was a way to sink the state into the ocean the entire country would be better off.

[CappinCanuck]

My issue is that there are currently two political stances on the issue; pretending that everything is fine while sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the concerns of your constituents, or being a Nazi bastard. An extreme generalisation, but that's how it is perceived by the British public. It needs to be addressed, if only to show people that the government is aware of their dissent and to avoid people being driven to vote for racist extremists.

Oh, I know you weren't speaking about me. My point is just that anecdotally or statistically, I was that kid who can't speak English and such. But you never know? And if the true holds for the UK, as it does in NA (as I am 99% sure it does), all statistics show that first-gen immigrants, as a whole, actually do better than natives *ducks*. The median is higher and by a significant amount.

I think we agree though. The problem is that nothing is being done about the root problems, and foolish people, of whom there are masses, will be swayed by this ridiculous rhetoric. We may disagree about how much validity the rhetoric has, but we're probably both still far from the right-wing's portrayal.

[Doogie2K]

The car breakdown thing is just a urban legend for the most part. It's something I hear a billion times per year. This was especially true during my school years, which just makes it even more obviously bullshit heh. If I actually split first-hand and second hand accounts, guess what, almost all first hand accounts of "incidents" in Quebec are positive. Anyway, back on topic.

Things have changed in Quebec in recent times; as little as a few years ago, my grandparents still had a hell of a time getting service in English from people they damned well knew could speak the language. (And over stupid shit, too. My grandfather's favourite is getting a blank look on "A hot dog, with mustard and relish, and a Pepsi," but sudden comprehension from "un hot-dog, avec moutard et relish, et un Pepsi.") Now, they seldom have any.

Hell, my mother couldn't go by her own given name in the French schools growing up. I shit you not.

[sam36]

http://i43.tinypic.com/j9625c.jpg

[boratika]

Seems we have a bible bashing spambot. It seems the rob'ts have found religion. Soon there will be no use for humans.


http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4405/jc6rg.jpg

[CES]

Because that worked well with Robo-Santa. You know, if you're smart enough to built true AI, you have to be smart enough to add a killswitch of some sort.

[Narradisall]

Really, BIBLE BOTS now?

I wonder if Robot Jesus had a Cybersaur....

[SilentScreams]

It's not a bible bot...it's just a regular Christian. There is almost no difference.

*ducks*

[boratika]

Because that worked well with Robo-Santa. You know, if you're smart enough to built true AI, you have to be smart enough to add a killswitch of some sort.

Yeah, but they fail to realise that they built the rob't smart enough to remove it's killswitch.


*falls to knees and questions the heavens*

"WHY WON"T THEY EVER LEARN?!?!"

[ShivaX]

Admittedly not really related to the OP, but it is related to European politics and not random posts from some Jesus-freak guy:

Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa)

PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.

In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.

In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."



While I agree with how he feels I have to say I'm glad I live in a country where freedom of speech is protected and we can wear whatever the hell we want and not have the government telling us what to wear "for our own good."

[Doogie2K]

Seems we have a bible bashing spambot. It seems the rob'ts have found religion. Soon there will be no use for humans.


http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4405/jc6rg.jpg

Robot Jesus looks an awful lot like Megaman. Coincidence? I think not.

[Savok]

Admittedly not really related to the OP, but it is related to European politics and not random posts from some Jesus-freak guy:

Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa)



While I agree with how he feels I have to say I'm glad I live in a country where freedom of speech is protected and we can wear whatever the hell we want and not have the government telling us what to wear "for our own good."
Balls of steel. He's half Hungarian so he follows the rules for great French leaders not really being French.

I don't know about an actual ban though, that is indeed the government telling you what to do and that mentality can fuck right off.

Though I've always wondered at the criminal application of them, you can't even tell if it's a man under one, could be anyone hiding in plain sight. Any other person covered head to toe concealing their identity would be considered suspicious, but then even that tramples people's right to be left the fuck alone.

[Doogie2K]

Balls of steel. He's half Hungarian so he follows the rules for great French leaders not really being French.

I don't know about an actual ban though, that is indeed the government telling you what to do and that mentality can fuck right off.

Though I've always wondered at the criminal application of them, you can't even tell if it's a man under one, could be anyone hiding in plain sight. Any other person covered head to toe concealing their identity would be considered suspicious, but then even that tramples people's right to be left the fuck alone.

I definitely don't think that you should be allowed to wear one on your photo ID. You look like four billion other people in a picture that small.

[Voodoo]

http://i43.tinypic.com/j9625c.jpg


Offender has been Ex-CoGmunicated.

[CES]

Admittedly not really related to the OP, but it is related to European politics and not random posts from some Jesus-freak guy:

Sarkozy says burqas are 'not welcome' in France (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090622/ap_on_re_eu/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa)



While I agree with how he feels I have to say I'm glad I live in a country where freedom of speech is protected and we can wear whatever the hell we want and not have the government telling us what to wear "for our own good."

You know, I should be on your side about the whole "It's not the governments place" but that comment is just too brilliant to go against it. Just a shame more UK politicians don't feel the same.

[TrackZero]

I seriously doubt that is an accurate depiction though. It`s not accurate anywhere else in the world.

The same is true in Canada. One of the most vocal anti-immigrant segments of society is first-generation immigrants.

I`m sure it is true to some degree since it is completely normal and, should be, acceptable to have a higher rate of assistance among new immigrants. New immigrants do need assistance to start. It`s a difficult transition and it takes time for degrees to be accredited, for finding jobs in your actual field, etc. Let me tell you a story from my own life. I was an immigrant, and we were on welfare for 6 months to a year when we came over to Canadaland. This wasn`t that long ago, now we`re in the top 3-5% of the income bracket. Once I consolidate my income with my fiancee`s, we`ll be in the top 1-2% of Canadian earners. See, I`m one of those coming over to the `XYZ-country and immediately claiming state benefits and getting priority for housing while having no regard for the country, its laws or its existing inhabitants,` but that`s not very accurate, is it? The arguments are illusionary, that`s what makes them populist...

I completely agree with all your points. That being said, immigration does need to happen at a certain rate. If it's too high, you can get total "invading culture" syndrome. If it's too low, all cultural values coming in will be completely wiped out with no chance to be learned/examined by the native culture. That said, ideally (maybe I'm an ass for saying this) you expect the 2nd generation of the family coming in to largely adopt the native culture of the country (assuming they're born/come in young) and carry on the cultural traits that are of value to the native group (as the kid can usually decide coming from a blank slate what "works" and what doesn't since they have their feet on both sides).

I know there are times in Toronto I wish we'd pull it back just a bit, as it seems like some of the immigrants here don't properly learn to integrate with everyone else, simply because they can stick to a certain area of the city and only interact with people from their home country. But that's only on occasion and a very minor issue here. That said, I can logically assume that other places have it worse simply due to too many immigrants coming in at the same time, there's no time for generations to pass and cultural mixing/understanding to occur. Which is what causes all the animosity and issues. From what I've been told, that was the case in Vancouver.