Talking Points

[Ox]

No, this isn't about Maureen Dowd.

The FBI and NYPD recently arrested (http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/FBI-Bust-Plot-Foiled.html) four men in the Bronx for allegedly trying to blow up synagogues. I want to take the article as a demonstration for how almost any news story can be used to make any point you wish. For example:

Raids by the FBI-NYPD Joint Terrorist Task Force in the Bronx captured the suspected ringleader and three followers in what law enforcement sources are calling a homegrown terrorist plot.
OMGhomegrownterroristsWTFBBQ!!1!!one!

Agents and police watched Wednesday night as the suspects allegedly planted what they thought were bombs outside two Jewish community centers in Riverdale, a Bronx, New York neighborhood. In one case the suspected terrorists planted a bomb inside a parked car. However, officials said the suspects were actually using fake explosives given to them in an earlier sting operation to make sure they didn't get their hands on real bombs.
This is just an overblown example of scaremongering; there was never any danger, these "terrorists" are incompetent, it's just a ploy to make us sheep.

The FBI said the Muslim suspects were angry and full of hate for America.
This is just racial profiling!

[One of the suspects] said his father lives in Afghanistan and he was upset about U.S. military presence there.
Our War on Terror is just breeding more hatred against us.

Authorities said Cromitie had 27 past arrests and had recently been working at a nation-wide discount retailer, authorities said.
Criminal sentencing is way too lenient.

Several of the suspects have previously been arrested on drug charges and may have converted to Islam in prison, authorities said.
Our War on Drugs is making us more vulnerable to terrorism.

The four men allegedly would meet in a safe house in Newburgh, which authorities said they had bugged with audio and video equipment.
We need expanded surveillance laws to keep us safe.

The four men are in custody and are expected to be arraigned Thursday in a White Plains, New York federal court on terrorism-related counts.
See? We can treat terrorism as a law-enforcement problem!

Cromitie was the first to approach the informant, authorities said. He told the informant he has ties to the terrorist group Jaish-e-Mohammad... “I have spoken to both the New York office of the FBI and Commissioner Kelly and I want to commend them both on an outstanding job. They have told me they have been monitoring this group for some time and that the men arrested did not have any connection to other terrorists," Schumer added.
Depending on who you believe, you can use this to argue either for or against the necessity of coercive interrogation.

[National Kato]

Well, I agree with your point that the news can be used to make a point. I think it's quite obvious to anyone turning on a television or reading the internet that most news is slanted or embellished in some way to make a point.

However, why would you not call these men terrorists? They were attempting to bomb public locations. Or is that not terrorism?

[Narradisall]

I was wondering when this would pop up on CoG.

One thing I couldn't seem to find the answer for is EVERY SINGLE report I've heard of this said they were arrested for planning to use 'weapons of mass destruction'. Even if they had bought real stinger missiles, or explosives. Dont WMD's have to be biological, radialogical, nuclear or chemical in nature?

[Ox]

Depends on the statute. In Pennsylvania, a WMD is defined as a "biological agent, bomb, chemical agent or nuclear agent."

I've never quite understood why people categorize NBCs as inherently different from conventional weapons. You wind up just as dead, and anyone who has seen a burn victim knows that radiation poisoning or mustard gas can't be that much dramatically more painful or unpleasant.

[ShivaX]

Depends on the statute. In Pennsylvania, a WMD is defined as a "biological agent, bomb, chemical agent or nuclear agent."

I've never quite understood why people categorize NBCs as inherently different from conventional weapons. You wind up just as dead, and anyone who has seen a burn victim knows that radiation poisoning or mustard gas can't be that much dramatically more painful or unpleasant.

Well the kill yield on NBCs tend to be far larger and less discrete.

I mean if a maverick hits your house you're dead as shit, but if a VX shell explodes outside your house, you'll be dead and so will a bunch of other random people. Most of those people will die in incredibly horrific ways.

Its hard to reliably kill tens, hundreds or millions of people in a short time with conventional munitions for the most part (without massive carpet bombing formations ala WW2). With NBCs its a lot easier, to the point that a single nuclear device is capable of vaporizing millions in an instant.

[Ox]

Well the kill yield on NBCs tend to be far larger and less discrete.
Eh. In the context of terrorist attacks, not really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway). VX is the most incredibly lethal chemical weapon ever developed. It's not comparable to a Maverick, it's comparable to a daisy cutter. And yet, the only known terror attack committed with VX killed one guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)).

Its hard to reliably kill tens, hundreds or millions of people in a short time with conventional munitions for the most part (without massive carpet bombing formations ala WW2). With NBCs its a lot easier, to the point that a single nuclear device is capable of vaporizing millions in an instant.
I'm not disputing that NBCs can be more lethal. But as a general rule for terrorists, Bs and Cs are not. Where would you rather be, the sarin attack in Tokyo's subway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway) or the conventional attack in London's Underground (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7)?

[ShivaX]

Eh. In the context of terrorist attacks, not really (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway). VX is the most incredibly lethal chemical weapon ever developed. It's not comparable to a Maverick, it's comparable to a daisy cutter. And yet, the only known terror attack committed with VX killed one guy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)).


I'm not disputing that NBCs can be more lethal. But as a general rule for terrorists, Bs and Cs are not. Where would you rather be, the sarin attack in Tokyo's subway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway) or the conventional attack in London's Underground (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7/7)?

I wont disagree on that point. The WMD thing is actually more a military term from my understanding, but I could be wrong. In the hands of terrorists chemical weapons tend to not be that lethal because they lack the delivery methods to make them truely effective. As far as biological they could be effective, but they generally lack the ability to get their hands on good ones and most Western nations can respond quickly.

[Narradisall]

I always consdiered WMD's were capable of being conventional weapons but on a scale that would kill thousdands more.

I.e. pipebombs in a bag = explosive
Daisycutter = WMD

Both explosives but set off in the same place a Daisycutter is more likely to kill a higher yield of people.

Fair enough if the law considers a standard explosive as a WMD, it just struck me as an odd thing for them to be charged with for planting some explosives that weren't MUCH more lethal than your average bombing.

I suppose on my definition though Boeing 747's could be classed as WMDs...

[alienmastermind]

Depending on who you believe, you can use this to argue either for or against the necessity of coercive interrogation.

No. I disagree. In fact, the facts of this were that the guys were caught because they were incompetent, and the FBI were vigilant, no? Or is there something crazy I'm missing here that justifies torture? Which of the guys were waterboarded/tortured to prevent their dropping off dud bombs outside of a Jewish temple?

The released facts are:

Dumbshits contact federal informant to purchase weapons.
Dumbshits are sold fake weapons by undercover federal agents.
Dumbshits are then watched by federal agents until they try to attack.
Dumbshits are arrested shortly after trying to plant fake bombs.
Dumbshits are arraigned and now they will likely spend some time in prison.

I don't see any link in the chain that suggests 'One of the Dumbshits were taken in by Jack Bauer, and coerced into confessing their whole Dumbshit plan by Enhanced Interrogation Techniques / Torture.'.

I do think this is suspiciously timed, however, and still harbor a healthy distrust of any story that coincides with a National Security speech, but come on, this was good police work mixed with the fact that the 'terrorists' in this case were ultimately incompetent.

[Ultima Thulian]

It's a business folks, and fear rakes in the typical demographic that most businesses aim for: idiots.

[sam36]

Before the world began, You were on His mind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIv-gfrse84)

[Ultima Thulian]

Before the world even began, eh? He must have a lot of time on his hands!

Oh, and someone banhammer this shit.

[Telefrog]

Before the world even began, eh? He must have a lot of time on his hands!

Oh, and someone banhammer this shit.

No way. This guy is awesome. I hope he never leaves!

[Dr. Quasius]

Before the world began, You were on His mind (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIv-gfrse84)

Who blew the Fundie whistle? Was it you Telefrog?

[Shrinn]

Guys, why are you riding on him? He's writing in pink/plumish colors. It's obviously sarcasm, remember?!