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Lithium Flower
10-09-2008, 12:47 PM
I just came across an interesting article in The Times, here (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article4724597.ece) and have reproduced below the main thrust of it.

What do you guys think? If a defendant or claimant have proved their case and won, should the party in the wrong be made to reimburse their expenses? Bear in mind, quite often the fees themselves are much more than the damages the parties hope to obtain.

Would it promote the goal of 'inexpensive, quick and efficient' justice for all or deride from it?

What about forcing people who have been wronged to have to bear the often quite significant cost of a trial? If they have to pay their lawyers themselves regardless of outcome, won't it discourage people from pursuing legitimate claims because they just cannot afford to foot the bill?

What about people accused of crimes and then acquitted. Should the government not bear whatever legal expenses they have incurred in clearing their name? Does it not strike as a little unfair that the State prosecutes someone for a crime, is unable to prove it and the innocent person has to bear a lot of expense for no fault of his own.

Anyone have any personal experiences they would like to share?




In the United States, the parties normally bear their own legal fees irrespective of the outcome of the case. In Britain, the rule is very different: loser pays. There are a number of statutes in the United States that require fee shifting in certain kinds of cases such as employment discrimination, civil rights violations or copyright infringement. Few ever require a losing plaintiff to pay the winning defendant’s fees...
Accordingly, defendants sometimes pay when they lose but plaintiffs generally do not.

[According to Polls] The American public harbour the perception that the system is saturated with “frivolous” cases brought by unscrupulous lawyers.

Quite often, it is the lawyer, not the client, who is the decision maker with regard to making a particular claim or defence. There is law on the books [A federal statute] to deal with American lawyers who bring on frivolous claims or defences [but is quite often not enforced and] in the real world lawyers routinely advance claims or defences having a low probability of success without much fear that they will be brought to book.

Loser pays, it is argued, would disincline would-be litigants to assert good-faith positions. Inflexible application of the rule, moreover, would fall most heavily on the less affluent members of society who, despite a meritorious case, must run the double risk of not only losing but also sustaining a crushing judgment for the legal fees of a corporate behemoth. Only the well-heeled could afford to have their day in court.

There is no consensus that loser pays reduces the filings of lawsuits. The UK and Germany have loser pays and, along with the United States, have the highest litigation rates among developed nations. Research, moreover, in Alaska, the one state that has adopted a fee-shifting regime, provides no evidence that frivolous cases are deterred. Alaskan defence lawyers say that the loser pays rule has only increased the value of plaintiff’s cases.

When Max Mosley sued the News of the World for invasion of privacy, he was awarded only £60,000 in damages. But, on top of it the High Court gave him an estimated £450,000 in legal fees which he had paid his lawyers for the trial. This could not have happened under the American regime.

The controversy, of course, applies only to civil cases. Even in England, loser pays does not happen in criminal proceedings. If the “loser pays” logic is sound, however, an innocent defendant should recover from the Government the cost of his defence.

But American rules of procedure are supposed to “secure the just, speedy and inexpensive determination” of every case. So judges must take account of the high cost of litigation, especially when they deny summary judgment in close cases or order protracted depositions or blunderbuss document production...

Emphasis and summary mine.

Craigtheplague
10-09-2008, 01:14 PM
I say let a jury decide. They are more likely to be compassionate to a poor litigant who would have to pay for the fees his/her whole life.

TheKeck
10-09-2008, 01:16 PM
It's a tough decision, for sure. I can think of many cases where I would go either way. Letting the jury decide doesn't seem like a bad idea.

DangerousDaze
10-09-2008, 01:23 PM
Why would a jury award the decision one way and the costs the other?

Stoke
10-09-2008, 01:38 PM
Absolutely, I had a wreck a few years ago when an old woman ran a stop light. There were no witnesses and it was my word against hers. I only have liability insurance and since the police could not give either of us the blame that was the end of it. Her insurance paid for her cars repair but not mine since I couldn't prove it was her fault. I had definitive proof that I was in the right, due to the timings of the lights it is physically impossible for her to do what she said. I didn't take her to court because the fees and such were just as unbearable to me as the repair bill would be, so now I have a shitty front end on my car and all I can do it type angrily about it on the internet.

Johan
10-09-2008, 01:44 PM
Tort reform! We need it.

TheKeck
10-09-2008, 01:51 PM
Why would a jury award the decision one way and the costs the other?
Here is what I had in mind. Maybe it's a ridiculous scenario.

Poor person sues huge company. The poor person's claims seem pretty legit, but in the end, the company's big shot lawyers win the case. The jury might not stick the poor person with the company's $100,000 legal bills.

Crazy?

Lithium Flower
10-09-2008, 03:20 PM
Well, its usually a discretionary award anyway (as far as I know). The judge/jury doesn't HAVE to award a 'loser pays' award if they don't want to, but as it stands they can't (except for in some very minor cases) at all, in the USA except for Alaska.

DangerousDaze
10-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Here is what I had in mind. Maybe it's a ridiculous scenario.

Poor person sues huge company. The poor person's claims seem pretty legit, but in the end, the company's big shot lawyers win the case. The jury might not stick the poor person with the company's $100,000 legal bills.

Crazy?

Actually, yeah. :p If the company won the case then the lawyers must have proved that the company was right and the poor person was wrong. Why should the company have to pay when it did no wrong? Furthermore, what's to stop legions more poor people coming along and doing the same thing knowing that they'll suffer no consequences?

Inspector Fowler
10-09-2008, 05:48 PM
You can always request legal fees as part of a judgement.

This is why, for years, inmates were suing prisons over shit like crunchy vs creamy peanut butter. They would only get awarded a couple hundred bucks, but their attorneys would get thousands in legal fees. So they felt good, because, like the cocksuckers they are, they took hundreds of thousands from the taxpayers to "show the man who's boss".

They eventually did reform that part of law. The inmates can now only get legal fees in proportion to their winnings. So if you only win a few hundred, the legal fees (if awarded separately) have to be a percentage of those winnings.

dotbomb
10-09-2008, 05:56 PM
In civil court you can get fees and costs. I've been involved in one civil superior suit, for under $25,000, and right there on the form it asks for court costs, lawyer fees, etc.

I've also been involved in one small claims case that was brought against my company.

Here is the rub... I think in small claims a defendant who is found not guilty should be able to recoup fees (court and lawyer). Currently fees for small claims are not recoverable and hence people can use/abuse them to harass people and companies. We spent about $12,000 defending a $3,000 claim. The plaintiff counted on the fact we'd just pay his claim and go away. Little did he know we have integrity.

dotbomb
10-09-2008, 05:58 PM
Furthermore, what's to stop legions more poor people coming along and doing the same thing knowing that they'll suffer no consequences?

They do that now and use small claims because this is exactly what can occur in small claims.

Karmakin
10-09-2008, 09:56 PM
Tort reform! We need it.

REAL Tort reform is needed. Unfortunately, what we get most of the time is something that would actually make thing worse, not better.

What's needed is to make a better separation between real torts, things that can be handled by the civil courts, and things that would be handled in a criminal court. I don't think the separation is nearly there right now. I'd move a lot of things away from mercenary style torts and towards a more public prosecution. Furthermore, I think that tort reform without harsh penalties for abusing it (say for example threatening people who take you to small claims court with 100k+ legal bills) becomes a sort of might makes right.

But I think my strongest feeling about it, is that I feel that the people who would be writing tort reform legislation do NOT have my best interests at heart. And that's about the long and the short of it as it stands right now.

KingGorilla
10-09-2008, 10:04 PM
I firmly believe that if the plaintiff loses, that person should foot the bill of the defendant. Where it gets muddy is when it is the other way around. Rarely is there a "win." If the RIAA were to successfully sue me, technically they win, but if the fine ends up being 100 dollars for 10 songs, I consider that my own victory.

I believe that leaving it as a jury decision is best. In particular as we have had a rash of cases where the defendant technically loses, but has faced very moderate fines. The man in Brooklyn who had his fine reduced to 99 cents per song, as that was the going rate for a song download. Should he pay for the millions of dollars in fees for the RIAA as well?

A person can lose, not on merits, but on technicalities or the running out of time.

The main reform that is needed is better jury instructions. That is really where the confusion comes in. Civil law is much more art than science.

Deadend
10-09-2008, 10:34 PM
I firmly believe that if the plaintiff loses, that person should foot the bill of the plaintiff. Where it gets muddy is when it is the other way around. Rarely is there a "win." If the RIAA were to successfully sue me, technically they win, but if the fine ends up being 100 dollars for 10 songs, I consider that my own victory.

I believe that leaving it as a jury decision is best. In particular as we have had a rash of cases where the defendant technically loses, but has faced very moderate fines. The man in Brooklyn who had his fine reduced to 99 cents per song, as that was the going rate for a song download. Should he pay for the millions of dollars in fees for the RIAA as well?

A person can lose, not on merits, but on technicalities or the running out of time.

The main reform that is needed is better jury instructions. That is really where the confusion comes in. Civil law is much more art than science.

This.. is really how I see it too.
I think the loser should pay... BUT that it should be up to the judge and jury to state how much should be paid as there are just so many scenarios where it's unjust to the loser.

KingGorilla
10-09-2008, 10:36 PM
I meant to say the plaintiff foots the bill for the defendant, if the defendant wins. I saw something shiny and...

You also get into issues, when money damages cannot be sought or are not given.

There are cases of innocent patent infringement for example. Where the remedy is not monetary, but for the infringer to cease making the product. There are cases where a person sues to have a contract honored or declared invalid. You sue a contractor to finish a job he botched. And, truth be told, outside of small claims court, it is this type of equitable relief that is most often sought.

TheKeck
10-10-2008, 08:56 AM
Actually, yeah. :p If the company won the case then the lawyers must have proved that the company was right and the poor person was wrong. Why should the company have to pay when it did no wrong? Furthermore, what's to stop legions more poor people coming along and doing the same thing knowing that they'll suffer no consequences?
Yeah, I don't know. I guess I'm think of scum-buckety companies from movies and stuff. Oh, and like, OJ's lawyers for instance. Seems to me, cases get won by guilty parties. Shrug.

And the legions of poor argument doesn't really work for me. The jury would still have to decide that the poor person had a legitimate reason to do whatever it was they did. Meh. I don't know. I just feel that there are probably circumstances where both ways might be unfair.