On the Ethics of Cheesesteaks

[Ox]

As part of my continuing program of healthy and environmentally-conscious eating, I decided to have a cheesesteak this afternoon. I happen to live a few blocks from the world-famous Philadelphia institutions and rivals, Pat's King of Steaks and Geno's Steaks, and a longstanding ethical question arose I thought might be addressed here.

Pat's King of Steaks and Geno's Steaks are catty-corner from each other at the same intersection. Both are permanent stands with covered outdoor seating, they have virtually identical menus, and their product is (to my non-native tongue) extremely similar in taste and quality. Both are very successful and busy. While Pat's is credited with inventing the Philadelphia cheesesteak in the 1930s, Geno's has been in business since 1966 and both contribute to local playgrounds etc. On these bases, there is little reason to choose over the other.

However, they are politically different. Pat's is apparently neutral on all non-cheesesteak-related issues: there are a few dozen photographs of the owners with various minor celebrities and attractive women, but apart from that, it's all business. Geno's is quite different. Unlike Pat's, Geno's advertises in the newsletters of local churches. Virtually every square inch of the building's exterior is plastered with framed photographs and memorabilia. There is a prominent large display of patches from various police and fire departments around the country, several plaques commemorating the uniformed services, and bumper stickers with slogans such as, "If you can read this, thank a teacher; if you can read this in English, thank a Marine"; "This is America: when ordering, 'Speak English'"; and "I'm MAD AS HELL and WANT MY COUNTRY BACK!". There is a large inlay in the pavement commemorating every Philadelphia police officer or firefighter who died in the line since 1930 with his or her own inscribed brick. Most controversially, there is a 3' x 4' police shield depicting the image of Daniel Faulkner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Faulkner), indicating his name and stating he was "[m]urdered by Mumia Abu-Jamal, December 9, 1981". One of the regular employees routinely wears a shirt while on duty accusing Mumia Abu-Jamal of murdering Officer Faulkner and calling for him to be executed. Were I asked to write a new slogan for Geno's (current motto: "The Best from South Philly"), I would probably suggest "Geno's: Taste the Patriotism!"

In this city, Mumia Abu-Jamal is a touchy subject, and I regularly see protests claiming he was framed for the killing by a racist police and judiciary. While this controversy cuts across party lines (the district attorney at the time, and his successor, are Democrats), it is nevertheless political. What, then, should guide me, the conscientious cheesesteak consumer? If I agree with the political message of Geno's, should I make a point to patronize them? If I disagree, should I eschew Geno's? Should I give Geno's credit for taking a stand, any stand, or prefer Pat's for keeping to its core competencies? For that matter, should I avoid Pat's King of Steaks for the monarchist overtones of its name? Or should I completely ignore all these factors and simply choose based on taste or (more likely) which one happens to be 30 feet closer to my house? In general, how should a business's political statements (e.g., Wal-Mart) affect my purchasing decisions?

[Johan]

What, then, should guide me, the conscientious cheesesteak consumer?

Here's what guides me:

* Price
* Convenience
* Taste (for food, obviously)
* Quality.

If a business offends me based upon their outspoken participation in social/political/religious issues, or in some other way, I go elsewhere. There aren't many on that list.

That's all I got. :shrugs: Sorry.

[Suave Peanut]

During my years in Philly, I always preferred Pat's.

I couldn't tell you why. That's just how it was.

[Shrinn]

I would go for whatever one is cheaper. Barring that, order from Geno's in Russian. =)

[Dark Acre Jack]

As part of my continuing program of healthy and environmentally-conscious eating, I decided to have a cheesesteak this afternoon.

If this is sarcasm, it's totally lost on me. :confused:

As to the OP title, I would say the manner in which the meat was processed would be all I'd need to know to make a decision on whether I'd allow the food to pass my lips.

Pardon my confusion.

[Bingley Joe]

As to the OP title, I would say the manner in which the meat was processed would be all I'd need to know to make a decision on whether I'd allow the food to pass my lips.

Pardon my confusion.

Pat's uses 100% USDA Prime Beef, aged on the premises.

Geno's uses 100% Dhabiha Halaal Beef, aged by the butcher.


..Does that help any?

[alienmastermind]

Ox, you have a lot going on in your head when you buy a sammich, man.

Well, while I get hackles raised when guys start bellowing about Marines being the reason men and women are free (grandson of a D-Day Plus One Army Airborne paratrooper, and son of a soldier), I do like a good cheesesteak. Whichever tastes better would be my choice.

And, even a big ol' Leftie like me sees nothing wrong with Pat advertising in church circulars. Hell, if his competition doesn't, then he deserves to lack the business.

Taste should drive this decision. Unless Pat requires a blood oath or something.

[Chris_D]

Geno's slogans would have me going to Pats. But it's a matter of personal preference I'm sure.

[OUX]

Not sure how you are going to figure that one out on an empty stomach.

[National Kato]

Forget both those places. The best cheesesteaks were made at Shannon's in Millville, NJ. Mrs. Shannon has been dead for some time, so you can't buy them anymore, but they beat those two self-described 'best' institutions hands down.

As for whether you patronize an eatery dependent upon the owners' non-gastronomical opinions? I guess that falls into the same category as if you watch a movie or buy an album if the artists' religious or political beliefs coincide with your own. Personally, I tend not to pay much attention to that. If the film, music, or cheesesteak is excellent, I'll enjoy it. Sometimes you just have to let all that baggage go.

[TheManEatingCow]

In your cheesesteak example, if all things were truly equal, my decision would probably be based on shortest line and which establishment was closer at that moment.

That said, I think it is perfectly reasonable for people to use a business's ideological leanings as part of the calculus as to whether or not to patronize said business. It's all about what makes you comfortable. While you may not think Geno's "english only" is code for anti-immigrant and therefore think that the sign is a non-issue, if Geno made large donations to anti-immigrant activist groups, would that affect your decision? I feel that there is a point/action where the vast majority of people will stand up and say they do not want their money, however indirectly, going toward a particular cause. But that point is going to be different for each person and it will be based on what makes people uncomfortable.

[Lance Uppercut]

I'd kill for a real cheesesteak right now. The sandwich chains around here don't do justice to the cheesesteak at all, and I have a hunch that the lone cheesesteak chain in my town is nowhere near as good as a real Philly steak.

With that said, a proprietor's political leanings don't mean a thing to me, unless said leanings are getting in the way of my sandwich.

(I will say that I am slightly offended by the anti-immigrant leanings of Geno's, since I myself immigrated to this country).

[alienmastermind]

The guy's name is Geno?
My guess is his ancestry probably got here on a boat, same as mine. :)

But, as an English as my Primary Language American, I can see the requirement of 'Please Speak English In My Establishment When Ordering' as kind of reasonable. It's not like he's saying 'Don't speak your language in my restaurant'.

[Chris_D]

I dunno, pointing at a menu, making some gestures etc. It's possible to be somewhat accommodating. In Japan, if all the restaurants were like that then most of the western foreigners here would be f*cked. Try telling them to learn Japanese, see how far you get. Of course, a few try but most don't care.

[ShivaX]

I dunno, pointing at a menu, making some gestures etc. It's possible to be somewhat accommodating. In Japan, if all the restaurants were like that then most of the western foreigners here would be f*cked. Try telling them to learn Japanese, see how far you get. Of course, a few try but most don't care.

Well his place is probably pretty busy and its likely a matter of how long that would take as much as anything. The Japanese are pretty forgiving about it, but I'd bet you'd find plenty of places in say Paris that would give you shit about not ordering in the native language.

[Shamrock Jimmy]

Pat's uses 100% USDA Prime Beef, aged on the premises.

Geno's uses 100% Dhabiha Halaal Beef, aged by the butcher.


..Does that help any?

Does anyone else find this funny?

[J Arcane]

Does anyone else find this funny?
The irony is probably more delicious than the cheesesteak.

[OUX]

But, as an English as my Primary Language American, I can see the requirement of 'Please Speak English In My Establishment When Ordering' as kind of reasonable. It's not like he's saying 'Don't speak your language in my restaurant'.

After reading this, I have strong doubts about your first premise.

[Bingley Joe]

Does anyone else find this funny?

I'm glad someone got it :p

[Lance Uppercut]

So... they don't use halaal beef?

[quidmonkey]

Dear Ox,

Pat's.

And stop smoking, maybe you'll be able to taste quality for once.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Here's what guides me:

* Price
* Convenience
* Taste (for food, obviously)
* Quality.

If a business offends me based upon their outspoken participation in social/political/religious issues, or in some other way, I go elsewhere. There aren't many on that list.

They're nearly equal on all fronts, except for presentation. I mean, they're literally across the street from each other.

It sounds like Geno's is where real Americans buy their cheesesteak, though.

[TheManEatingCow]

It sounds like Geno's is where real Americans buy their cheesesteak, though.

If that were the case, Geno would also have a sign that says 'BMI must be >32 to eat here'.

[Johan]

It sounds like Geno's is where real Americans buy their cheesesteak, though.

If you believe Miss Universe (or whatever her title is), that would probably be Guantanamo Bay, actually. I hear it's got wonderful beaches and is a real hoot!

;)

[J Arcane]

They're nearly equal on all fronts, except for presentation. I mean, they're literally across the street from each other.

It sounds like Geno's is where real Americans buy their cheesesteak, though.
Which makes sense, because real Americans have no taste in food.

[torrefaction]

Which makes sense, because real Americans have no taste in food.

I'd like to point you to the BBQ circuit...and reality.

[J Arcane]

I'd like to point you to the BBQ circuit...and reality.
The South is a pseudo-exception. They occasionally make good food by accident, and at least have the decency to keep eating it. :D

Though historically speaking, BBQ isn't really American food.

[Ox]

Though historically speaking, BBQ isn't really American food.
Historically speaking, only nuts and berries are really American food. I'm pretty sure we didn't get an average BMI expressible only through scientific notation only eating nuts and berries, though.

[roboninja]

I would eat at Pat's. Geno's sounds creepy.

[Lance Uppercut]

Historically speaking, only nuts and berries are really American food.

Sweet potato
turkey
clam chowder
baked beans
cornbread
buffalo wings
peanut butter
cream cheese
popcorn
hush puppies
sloppy joes
chitlins
bbq
texas chili

Just off the top of my head. American food gets such a bad rap for not being "original" because of all the immigration in its history, but this is not the case.

[Lithium Flower]

Halaal Beef and anti-immigration? o.O

As someone who's never had non-halaal meat, I'd personally like Ox to try both and tell me if they taste substantially different and whether one is better than the other!

That said, Geno's sounds a bit creepy. I wouldn't want to be bombarded with political statements when I'm trying to enjoy some steak!

[Johan]

I wouldn't want to be bombarded with political statements when I'm trying to enjoy some steak!

There are some who believe that eating meat IS a political statement! ;)

You must not enjoy Morrissey and the Smiths too much then.

:cue the chainsaw sounds and mewing/mooing:

[Ox]

As someone who's never had non-halaal meat, I'd personally like Ox to try both and tell me if they taste substantially different and whether one is better than the other!
I've had both halal and non-halal meat, although I'm pretty sure that this was a joke and Geno's does not serve halal meat. In my experience, most halal meat tends to be choicer cuts and treated better, but there is no way to tell the difference between a good piece of non-halal meat and its equivalent.

[Lithium Flower]

There are some who believe that eating meat IS a political statement! ;)

You must not enjoy Morrissey and the Smiths too much then.

:cue the chainsaw sounds and mewing/mooing:

No, no I can't say they're quite my type! :p

I've had both halal and non-halal meat, although I'm pretty sure that this was a joke and Geno's does not serve halal meat. In my experience, most halal meat tends to be choicer cuts and treated better, but there is no way to tell the difference between a good piece of non-halal meat and its equivalent.

Ah, many thanks! I always wondered whether since non-halaal meat isn't specifically drained of blood, any lingering presence of it would affect taste.

[Ox]

Non-halal meat is usually drained of blood...

Holy fuck. I'm sorry, normally I start writing a post while looking for a relevant link. This time, I just typed in "butchering", assuming I'd get a wiki on the process of meat rendering and different techniques. Little did I suspect the very first hit would be entitled "Butchering the Human Carcass."

Sorry, Ox is experiencing technical difficulties. He's going to go have a drink and think about the human condition for a little while.

[CES]

Ah, many thanks! I always wondered whether since non-halaal meat isn't specifically drained of blood, any lingering presence of it would affect taste.

Halal meat tastes the exact same as non-halal meat based on personal experience. I imagine there's possibly some difference in taste the rarer the meat is cooked.

[Generation ABXY]

Non-halal meat is usually drained of blood...

Holy fuck. I'm sorry, normally I start writing a post while looking for a relevant link. This time, I just typed in "butchering", assuming I'd get a wiki on the process of meat rendering and different techniques. Little did I suspect the very first hit would be entitled "Butchering the Human Carcass."

Sorry, Ox is experiencing technical difficulties. He's going to go have a drink and think about the human condition for a little while.

Wow, you're not joking. I wonder if they are? Maybe it is like a gag site or something.

I wonder how many watch lists my curiosity will earn me admittance to, if I were to click on that... :p

[quidmonkey]

Wow, you're not joking. I wonder if they are? Maybe it is like a gag site or something.

I wonder how many watch lists my curiosity will earn me admittance to, if I were to click on that... :p

Holy shit these people are hardcore.

http://www.churchofeuthanasia.org/graphics/new/edaygrls.jpg

Church of the Euthanasia. Their one commandment: Thou shalt not procreate.

[quidmonkey]

http://i43.tinypic.com/j9625c.jpg

[Lithium Flower]

Well...at least we can rely on them not increasing in number.

[Inspector Fowler]

I would probably alternate, if they're both good. If one ever started to stand out service-wise or something, start going there more often.

And if one mother fucker tried to tell me about Mumia "The Best Defense I Got is that after I heard my relative getting pulled over by the cops on my police scanner, I drove my cab there, jumped out with my registered gun, but I didn't actually do anything, some random guy ran up to me, took my gun, shot the cop, left my gun there, and ran away, leaving the cops to find me with spend rounds in my pistol" Abu-Jamal, they can start by sucking my dick.

Oops, sorry. I just can't believe anybody would ever believe that fucking fairy tale. I know innocent people get convicted, but seriously, that's some stupid bullshit.

[Ancalagon]

Wow, I had no idea what a cheesesteak was. For a minute, I thought maybe it was just a slab of steak covered in cheese? Or maybe a whole piece of cooked cheese?

What do they taste like?

I'd probably go for Pat's myself. I want food and entertainment, not politics. Did anyone see the Jackass episode where this guy puts on a russian accent and goes to a car repair guy called Eddie, who is known for not liking Russians, and wants a free repair or something. Classic.

[Khrymsyn]

Honestly, I avoid all the Pat's/Gino's politics and tourism.

I prefer Jim's, Campo's or even Tony Luke's. =P


(edited to actually contribute)
I haven't stepped into either Pat's or Geno's in years, not since the whole "you must order in english", and only know about that and the court cases from the news. As much as some of Joey Vento's opinions may be unpopular, it's not a completely uncommon sentiment, especially for 1st and 2nd gen Americans born from Immigrants. Thier Parents or Grandparents came to this country speaking another language, and forced themselves and thier children to learn English with little to no accomodation for thier culture or language, and often suffering hardships because of it (try being a Russian during the Cold War...). Now they are adults, and have gotten past those cultural and language barriers and watch as another group gets accomodations that thier own family was never afforded, and it breeds a contempt. Whether or not you feel his opinion / support is right or wrong, there IS a reason for it.

[headhunter228]

I live in Northwest Arkansas, and we have a very large Hispanic minority here. The church I go to, the people who speak English are the minority. I've lived around Hispanic people all my life, and if they want to speak Spanish to one another, I have no problem with it. But the majority of the Hispanic people I know either speak fluent English or are trying to learn. I applaud that. However, I am also of the opinion that if you have moved here from a Spanish-speaking country (or any other country whose language isn't English), have lived here for ten years or more, and have completely and utterly refused to learn to speak English in that time, I say you need to go back to wherever the hell you came from. I know people like that. They simply rely on their children to translate for them. If you come to the US and you don't know a word of English, but are willing to learn, we are more than willing to accomodate you while you're trying to learn our language. I understand that English is a very difficult language to learn to speak, but if you're coming here, you better be willing to learn it. This is an English-speaking country, after all.

[TheKeck]

For that matter, should I avoid Pat's King of Steaks for the monarchist overtones of its name?
This is clearly the most important factor.

[Khrymsyn]

This is an English-speaking country, after all.

Technically, it's not. There is NO official language of the United States.

[Bone]

My wife and I believe in voting with our dollar. We deplore many of Wal-Marts actions and never shop there. We disagree with Domino's Pizza's contribution to anti-abortion, so we don't order their pizza. Of course we don't have time to investigate every single product we consume, but sometimes when you hear enough about a corporation you can decide you'd rather not support them.

[torrefaction]

My wife and I believe in voting with our dollar. We deplore many of Wal-Marts actions and never shop there. We disagree with Domino's Pizza's contribution to anti-abortion, so we don't order their pizza. Of course we don't have time to investigate every single product we consume, but sometimes when you hear enough about a corporation you can decide you'd rather not support them.

This is how I roll. Always. I don't just cave and shop places if I don't like them. I never shop at Wal-Mart. Objectively, I feel like they get more shit than they deserve overall, but I still don't like most of their practices so they don't get my money. I'd prefer to use Comcast because of their speed and customer service (it's always been great.), but I settle for AT&T because fuck you and your 250GB cap.

Even last night, I was out at a hookah bar, and 2 of my friends were asked to leave because they were hanging out and not buying anything. No one would have sat where they were sitting because it was our corner we had taken already. We were buying hookahs and beer, but he asked them to leave. I told the guy he needed to reconsider how he treated his customers and that I wouldn't be back. I was polite about it, but I feel like my dollar is a far more powerful vote than well...my vote.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Technically, it's not. There is NO official language of the United States.

Well, maybe not on paper. But we pretty much speak english.

[Inspector Fowler]

I always reverse the language issue to point out that people are turning it into a race issue.

Reversal: If I moved to any other country that doesn't speak English, wouldn't you expect me to learn their language? And if I refused to, would I be able to complain that I was stuck in the most menial of jobs despite being pretty intelligent? FURTHERMORE, if I DID learn this new language, would you expect me to forget English just because I'd learned a new language?

No, you wouldn't. Because I'm a middle class white guy. But for some reason, in a lot of places Mexican immigrants in particular get a ton of sympathy from people who think that learning a new language is somehow synonymous with "betraying your culture" or something.

Man, I had the longest, lamest traffic stop last night with a guy who refuses to learn English. I speak a little Spanish, and the guy admits he has lived in Colorado for "many years". He doesn't have a license (I think he was probably illegal, but I'm not a federal agent) and his car is registered in Louisiana. He was nice (and terrified that I somehow have immigration enforcement powers, I think), and sober (my main concern because he was driving like a tanked-up 8 year old), but I was unable to really accomplish anything in terms of explaining that to him, and the stop took forever because he doesn't speak English.

So if nobody would feel sorry for me in the reversed situation, why do Mexican immigrants (legal or not) get a break?

[J Arcane]

I think you'll find these days there's a fair number of older white immigrants who aren't exactly tops in the English department either. I dealt with a lot of frustrating, broken, monosyllabic attempts at bartering with the older Russian immigrants when I worked for Goodwill in Vancouver.

[Chris_D]

I'm not sure about the US, but in Australia, the services for learning English could be a lot better. I believe in most cases immigrants need to pay for lessons, maybe not shocking, but some immigrants may be in a position where that money is just not available.

Meanwhile, in Japan, I can get free group and private lessons pretty much anywhere I go at various community centers.