Jeans Are Evil: The Opinions of a Jackass

[Gorvi]

I'm normally not one to get easily annoyed by what I read, but this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/04/15/AR2009041502861.html?hpid=opinionsbox1) in the Washington Post (pointed out by GamePolitics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/04/16/washington-post-columnist-takes-cheap-shot-gamers)) just gets under my skin. I don't run into people with such a self important arrogant attitude in my daily life and I'm thankful for that. I feel bad for the guy almost. Here's a choice excerpt:
Long ago, when James Dean and Marlon Brando wore it, denim was, Akst says, "a symbol of youthful defiance." Today, Silicon Valley billionaires are rebels without causes beyond poses, wearing jeans when introducing new products. Akst's summa contra denim is grand as far as it goes, but it only scratches the surface of this blight on Americans' surfaces. Denim is the infantile uniform of a nation in which entertainment frequently features childlike adults ("Seinfeld," "Two and a Half Men") and cartoons for adults ("King of the Hill"). Seventy-five percent of American "gamers" -- people who play video games -- are older than 18 and nevertheless are allowed to vote. In their undifferentiated dress, children and their childish parents become undifferentiated audiences for juvenilized movies (the six -- so far -- "Batman" adventures and "Indiana Jones and the Credit-Default Swaps," coming soon to a cineplex near you). Denim is the clerical vestment for the priesthood of all believers in democracy's catechism of leveling -- thou shalt not dress better than society's most slovenly. To do so would be to commit the sin of lookism -- of believing that appearance matters. That heresy leads to denying the universal appropriateness of everything, and then to the elitist assertion that there is good and bad taste.
I really almost have to wonder if the article was written as a parody, I have a hard time believing that someone is actually that stuck up.

[Ancalagon]

I really hope it is a parody, since its so unbelievably stupid.

Gamers and Batman movies are childish? Nice.... This person must be such fun to hang out with, such fun! And so witty and cool, and such a good sense of dress. Cos, I mean obviously looking good is so important.

Sigh, stupid idiot.

[biosc1]

Sounds like someone who is eager to be controversial yet doesn't really believe what they are saying. They only want the hits.


Though, I did just want Jesus Camp on the weekend, so I have a new appreciation for the sorts of people out there.

[TheFlyingOrc]

From the comment section, a quote from CS Lewis that's applicable:


Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.

[Gorvi]

From the comment section, a quote from CS Lewis that's applicable:
That was incredibly appropriate.

[ZephidsEmbrace]

He's old. Really old. Give him a break!

And it's only logical. The world has turned to utter shit around him, and he's simply figured out what the difference is: jeans.

That's right, I said it.

[National Kato]

My grandfather used to say, "You're only as old as you think you are." I expect the author of that piece sees himself as being very, very old. An age I'm in no hurry to reach, if at all.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I think the real solution is that we should all get off his lawn.

[Johan]

That's a great quote. I love C.S. Lewis.

[cppcrusader]

I really almost have to wonder if the article was written as a parody, I have a hard time believing that someone is actually that stuck up.

I'm thinking that the original opinion piece in the Wall Street Journal was a joke, but the one that GP found seems to be riding its coattails to spout its own insanity.

At least I hope so.

[Ox]

George Will is clearly more than a little tongue in cheek. I have no doubt he has an aversion to jeans, but nobody (and certainly not him) invokes the First Letter to the Corinthians in a column like that entirely seriously.

Frankly, I agree with him in large part. Denim, as the original article pointed out, is not a very comfortable fabric. It's also terribly unflattering. A decent pair of khakis is far more appropriate wear for most of us who don't engage in heavy manual labor. Wool or linen slacks, as seasonally appropriate, are even better and look much nicer. Denim has only two major advantages over other fabrics, apart from its fashionability: it's hard-wearing and it doesn't show dirt or sweat readily. Given that most of us don't need such hard-wearing clothes, the only really practical advantage is that it lets us wear dirty clothing. I'm not sure this is a good thing.

TFO's Lewis quote is fine, but just as there's nothing adult about obsessively fearing childishness, neither is there anything particularly positive about eschewing the trappings of adulthood. Steve Jobs could easily afford a nice suit that would be more comfortable than his current garb, but he doesn't wear one because he doesn't want to appear to be "a suit." I love wearing my extensive collection of Sam Axe-style Hawaiian shirts on the weekends, but I wouldn't dream of suggesting that my office permit sport coats.

[National Kato]

Denim, as the original article pointed out, is not a very comfortable fabric. It's also terribly unflattering.

Speak for yourself. My jeans are soft, comfortable, and I look dead sexy in them. Dead. Sexy.

<---- Look at me. I'm wearing jeans over here.

Of course, you have to buy the right denim. That cardboard shit is out there for the unwary.

[muddi900]

Denim, as the original article pointed out, is not a very comfortable fabric. It's also terribly unflattering.


Whereas wearing a tie is like floating on clouds. The reason denim's popularity is it's ruggedness. You don't need to wash it as much and requires no ironing.

Whereas a proper suit requires 19 pieces of clothing, every one of them requiring washing and ironing after each use. And it also requires a tie. Somebody should go back in time and kick the guy who invented ties in the nuts. Repeatedly. For 3 days.

[Ancalagon]

Jeans are also pretty much the most casual long pants. I dont really want to wear khakis most days because they look more dressed up than jeans. My workplace is really that casual, I would look out of place dressed that smart. I wore jeans, a golf shirt and a nice jersey and got asked if I was going to an interview by a colleague.

[Ghostbear]

I dunno my jean seem pretty comfy to me. Ancalagon, I would also look out of place if I moved much past jeans.

[Spacetronaut]

I agree, children wear jeans and play video games, adults wear suits, do coke, and cheat on their wives.

[Ox]

Whereas wearing a tie is like floating on clouds.
If your tie is uncomfortable or noticeable on you at all, you're tying your tie wrong. If you find yourself being strangled every time you dress in the morning, that's not your clothing's fault.
The reason denim's popularity is it's ruggedness. You don't need to wash it as much and requires no ironing.
Not true: you need to wash denim and iron it, if you don't want to smell bad and be all wrinkly. If you only care about whether there is visible dirt on your clothing and you are indifferent to wrinkliness because denim looks like crap, then you don't need to wash or iron it. But that sort of plays into Will's point: denim encourages you to be a smelly slob.

Whereas a proper suit requires 19 pieces of clothing, every one of them requiring washing and ironing after each use.
Not true. You don't need to dry-clean a suit every time you wear it. It's a good idea to press it occasionally, and of course it should be dry-cleaned every few wears. But wool naturally repels a lot of the dirt and sweat that denim sucks up like a two-dollar whore.

Jeans are also pretty much the most casual long pants. I dont really want to wear khakis most days because they look more dressed up than jeans. My workplace is really that casual, I would look out of place dressed that smart.
It's unfortunate that, if you were to wear comfortable clothing that happened to look nice and respectful, you'd feel awkward. I imagine one day a person will seem like a snob if he doesn't tell fart jokes during his wedding ceremony.

[torrefaction]

What the hell jeans do you wear that really require ironing?

That being said, I actually agree with Ox here, even though I do wear jeans and shorts to work much of the time. I used to dress nicer cuz the clothes were more comfortable. Now I don't dress as nice because, well, I don't even know. I guess cuz I like the look I maintain these days more.

[ClannerDelta]

Denim works for me. Cheap, comfy, long lasting, easy to wash, easy to fold, easy to clean, and they turn into shorts after about a year. Awesome.

Not true: you need to wash denim and iron it, if you don't want to smell bad and be all wrinkly. If you only care about whether there is visible dirt on your clothing and you are indifferent to wrinkliness because denim looks like crap, then you don't need to wash or iron it. But that sort of plays into Will's point: denim encourages you to be a smelly slob.

Jeans do need washed, I agree. Ironing? No. Learn to fold your clothes right.

[Ghostbear]

It's unfortunate that, if you were to wear comfortable clothing that happened to look nice and respectful, you'd feel awkward. I imagine one day a person will seem like a snob if he doesn't tell fart jokes during his wedding ceremony.

It's unfortunate that I if i were not to were a suit that someone would think it was disrespectful. I imagine one day someone be deemed a troglodyte if he isn't wearing a tux to go get pizza.

[Hellbug]

Skinny jeans would kick this guy's ass.

[Spacetronaut]

Denim works for me. Cheap, comfy, long lasting, easy to wash, easy to fold, easy to clean, and they turn into shorts after about a year. Awesome.

Jeans are good. Jean shorts? Unforgivable.

[ClannerDelta]

Jeans are good. Jean shorts? Unforgivable.

Rivers, man, rivers! Denim is like God's way of protecting your manhood in icecold water filled with razorsharp rocks.

[Ghostbear]

Jeans are good. Jean shorts? Unforgivable.

Sir, you are like a prophet whose wisdom is only exceeded by his awesome.

[Virtual Pariah]

That is the very definition of Fuddy Duddy.

I don't wear jeans much at all, but, tend not to have an opinion pro or con.

Lighten Up Francis.

[JayK47]

Back in the day, and even today, rich people did not/don't dress themselves. They have servants to do it for them. So they can wear elaborate shit. Basically the rich compete with one another by having the most servants to tend to their "needs". They need someone to dress them, feed them, drive them around. They don't even sound like people to me. More like pets. Fuck suits.

[Ox]

It's unfortunate that I if i were not to were a suit that someone would think it was disrespectful. I imagine one day someone be deemed a troglodyte if he isn't wearing a tux to go get pizza.
Outward displays of respect are all about indicating you think highly enough of the other person to perform certain actions on his behalf. This is why I comb my hair in the morning; not because I care whether it's standing on end (I can't see it), but because I know the people I will encounter would aesthetically prefer the sight of combed hair and I am happy to make a minor sacrifice of a few moments for their behalf.

If I expect you to wear a suit, or a tux, or a fucking clown suit, and you have respect for me, then you should do what I expect or have a damn good reason not to. "I don't feel like it" means you're not willing to undergo the very minor inconvenience of changing clothes to please me, which means you don't have a lot of respect for me. So yes, if for some reason you believe your local pizzeria owner expects his customers to wear tuxes, then not wearing black tie is a deliberate insult to him. If you cared about his opinion, you'd go through the hassle, even if you thought it was a little unusual.

[Troggles]

I think you guys are missing the point: all pants are evil.

[DylonCorp]

The only person who got famous taking fashion tips from George Will was Tucker Carlson. No one wearing a bow tie, the epitome of outdated fashions outside of formal wear, will have much sway on what I will wear.

[Raen]

In the office where I interned we wore casual clothes unless we had a client. Then we were expected at the least to wear a proper shirt and once or twice smart trousers. Even the directors wore casual stuff unless we had clients in. Hell the one time the directors wore full suits (we had a company who were considering buying the company in the office) one of them hadn't worn a suit in so long that it barely fit him any more. On a normal guy he was the most casually dressed guy in the office.

The point of my rambling story? I agree with Ox. It's about respect. We dressed up when there were people there who expected smarter clothing and the rest of the time we dressed casually as that was all that was expected of us. Dressing nicely does make you look good to people who don't know you well, and in business a first impression matters a lot.

[OUX]

Am I the only one that wears pants to keep my junk from hanging out?

[Ghostbear]

Outward displays of respect are all about indicating you think highly enough of the other person to perform certain actions on his behalf. This is why I comb my hair in the morning; not because I care whether it's standing on end (I can't see it), but because I know the people I will encounter would aesthetically prefer the sight of combed hair and I am happy to make a minor sacrifice of a few moments for their behalf.

If I expect you to wear a suit, or a tux, or a fucking clown suit, and you have respect for me, then you should do what I expect or have a damn good reason not to. "I don't feel like it" means you're not willing to undergo the very minor inconvenience of changing clothes to please me, which means you don't have a lot of respect for me. So yes, if for some reason you believe your local pizzeria owner expects his customers to wear tuxes, then not wearing black tie is a deliberate insult to him. If you cared about his opinion, you'd go through the hassle, even if you thought it was a little unusual.
Well thats all fine and dandy, but that begs the question whose expectations do I need to meet? If I expect you to wear a fishnet t-shirt and a thong would you do it simply because I expected you to? Its all about situation no? In a very formal environment you should dress appropriately, but if the place you are going has a "jeans are perfectly acceptable" mentality you are only being a cock if you think those who are meeting those expectations are somehow dressing down. Whether you, or the author of the article like it, jeans are acceptable in many situations and it isn't lowbrow to like wearing them.

In the office where I interned we wore casual clothes unless we had a client. Then we were expected at the least to wear a proper shirt and once or twice smart trousers. Even the directors wore casual stuff unless we had clients in. Hell the one time the directors wore full suits (we had a company who were considering buying the company in the office) one of them hadn't worn a suit in so long that it barely fit him any more. On a normal guy he was the most casually dressed guy in the office.

The point of my rambling story? I agree with Ox. It's about respect. We dressed up when there were people there who expected smarter clothing and the rest of the time we dressed casually as that was all that was expected of us. Dressing nicely does make you look good to people who don't know you well, and in business a first impression matters a lot.

I agree, like I said the situation will dictate my clothing, but its more about my expectations of what I should wear in that situation than anyone else's. I am not averse to dressing nicely when the situation warrants it.

[Ox]

Back in the day, and even today, rich people did not/don't dress themselves. They have servants to do it for them. So they can wear elaborate shit. Basically the rich compete with one another by having the most servants to tend to their "needs". They need someone to dress them, feed them, drive them around. They don't even sound like people to me. More like pets. Fuck suits.
Seriously? Your reason for not wearing a suit is because you don't have a manservant to put it on for you?

Okay, if you think you lack the intellectual capacity or staff that is required to put on a suit, then I heartily recommend you wear a simpler garment. Diapers, for example.

Also, I defy you to identify three men of average intelligence and capability today who employ servants to dress them. I'm pretty sure Bill Gates still zips up his own fly.

Well thats all fine and dandy, but that begs the question whose expectations do I need to meet? If I expect you to wear a fishnet t-shirt and a thong would you do it simply because I expected you to?
If I respected you enough, I would. Although the fact that I would inadvertently insult so many other people on the way to seeing you would probably mean I'd have to respect you a little more than, say, simply wearing a suit would.

In a very formal environment you should dress appropriately, but if the place you are going has a "jeans are perfectly acceptable" mentality you are only being a cock if you think those who are meeting those expectations are somehow dressing down. Whether you, or the author of the article like it, jeans are acceptable in many situations and it isn't lowbrow to like wearing them.
I really think you need to go back and re-read what I said. I said failing to meet people's expectations implies insult. If your co-workers don't expect you to wear anything better than jeans, then there's no insult. But if you decided to wear something a little nicer to demonstrate your respect for your co-workers, you shouldn't feel awkward. There's nothing wrong with making a little extra effort for people. It's actually a positively good thing we should try to encourage. There's nothing necessarily wrong with a belching contest with your frat buddies at 3am, but it's a good idea if we gently encourage you guys to find other topics of conversation.

[Wraith]

I'm a gamer over age 18 who's allowed to vote.

I watch King of the Hill, Seinfeld, and Two and a Half Men and like them well enough.

I can wear jeans to work every day and nobody bats an eye.

If any of this means I'm low-class, uncultured, and immature, then so be it.

[Generation ABXY]

Back in the day, and even today, rich people did not/don't dress themselves. They have servants to do it for them. So they can wear elaborate shit. Basically the rich compete with one another by having the most servants to tend to their "needs". They need someone to dress them, feed them, drive them around. They don't even sound like people to me. More like pets. Fuck suits.

This has to be a joke.

[Ox]

I watch King of the Hill, Seinfeld, and Two and a Half Men and like them well enough.
Are you in prison somewhere? 'Cause I certainly understand you might not get to choose your wardrobe.

[Wraith]

Are you in prison somewhere? 'Cause I certainly understand you might not get to choose your wardrobe.It's not my favorite show, by any means, but I find it watchable, more often than not. Everybody Loves Raymond falls into the same category. I've even intentionally watched a number of episodes of Mad About You.

*cue shock, horror*


(I know the humor can be pretty low brow; I don't really watch it for that.)

[Ox]

It's not my favorite show, by any means, but I find it watchable, more often than not. Everybody Loves Raymond falls into the same category. I've even intentionally watched a number of episodes of Mad About You.
Helen Hunt = watchable. I'm happy to give you that. Especially when she's wearing one of those loose tops and it billows...

Okay, yet another reason I am glad I'm wearing a thin, loose fabric.

[ClannerDelta]

Okay, yet another reason I am glad I'm wearing a thin, loose fabric.

So that you can't effectively do the tuck?

I'm starting to think you picture jeans as the skin tight cowboy variety and not any of the other kinds of jeans.

[Ghostbear]

If I respected you enough, I would. Although the fact that I would inadvertently insult so many other people on the way to seeing you would probably mean I'd have to respect you a little more than, say, simply wearing a suit would.


I really think you need to go back and re-read what I said. I said failing to meet people's expectations implies insult. If your co-workers don't expect you to wear anything better than jeans, then there's no insult. But if you decided to wear something a little nicer to demonstrate your respect for your co-workers, you shouldn't feel awkward. There's nothing wrong with making a little extra effort for people. It's actually a positively good thing we should try to encourage. There's nothing necessarily wrong with a belching contest with your frat buddies at 3am, but it's a good idea if we gently encourage you guys to find other topics of conversation.
Sounds peachy keen. It was more in regards to the article's author anyways, I directed it at you because of your mild agreement with him.

[Ox]

So that you can't effectively do the tuck?
The tuck is terribly uncomfortable.

I'm starting to think you picture jeans as the skin tight cowboy variety and not any of the other kinds of jeans.
For some of us under certain circumstances, all jeans become skintight.

[Ghostbear]

The tuck is terribly uncomfortable.


For some of us under certain circumstances, all jeans become skintight.

I am simultaneously intrigued and horrified.

[ClannerDelta]

The tuck is terribly uncomfortable.
Pitching a tent is emotionally uncomfortable.

For some of us under certain circumstances, all jeans become skintight.

Penis implants gone wrong?!

[Generation ABXY]

I am simultaneously intrigued and horrified.

I think someone wants to give you a BAR exam, Ox.

[National Kato]

Not true: you need to...iron it, if you don't want to...be all wrinkly.

Again, I question your selection of denim. Are you only buying dark blue Wranglers? I mean, I can say with 100% accuracy: I have never ironed a pair of jeans and they aren't wrinkled. If you fail to wash them and bunch them up? Sure, they'll wrinkle. But iron them? Nope.

[Ox]

Pitching a tent is emotionally uncomfortable.
I used to have a long commute, including a bus ride. One morning, I fell asleep on the bus. When the bus reached the train station, I awoke to discover Cirque du Soleil had set up camp. It was quite possibly the most magnificent specimen I had ever seen, which is kind of a sad commentary if you think about it. A middle-aged woman was openly staring, mouth slightly agape. I looked at her, looked down, and said, "Sorry, it's not for you," and got off the bus.

I really am kind of mean sometimes, now that I think about it.

Again, I question your selection of denim. Are you only buying dark blue Wranglers?
I've tried several different brands, although I draw the line at spending more than $80 for jeans. They're not unwearable when freshly laundered, but neither are they particularly crisp. The overall effect on my body is to look somewhat slovenly.

[ClannerDelta]

Would my Jeans be classy enough if I wore a monocle and top hat? Could I have a "Business up top, but party down below." look? Like a full-body mullet.

[Nameless]

I knew it! Ox is Barney Stinson!

[Ox]

Would my Jeans be classy enough if I wore a monocle and top hat? Could I have a "Business up top, but party down below." look? Like a full-body mullet.
Hard to tell. Take a photograph of yourself in this outfit and post it, I'll be able to give a more informed opinion.

Although my knee-jerk reaction is that you'd look like some sort of redneck Mr. Peanut.

[Spacetronaut]

While I was away this thread turned from jeans to accidental boners. I like to think the change was inevitable.

[diablopath]

I agree with Ox.

Jeans are shit.

[johnperkins21]

I will always, under every single circumstance, choose shorts to any style of long pants. However, when required, I usually prefer jeans simply because I can wear more casual shoes with them (tennis shoes, or athletic shoes for our Northeastern friends). Also, jeans are more flattering to my body type than slacks I buy off the rack.

When I worked construction, I often wore Dickies work pants which were some sort of manufactured poly-blend I believe, but never took the time to pay attention.

[Spacetronaut]

I had a thought. The reason I love jeans is because it is appropriate to wear untucked shirts with them. Have you ever tried wearing an untucked shirt with slacks? Of course not, you would look ridiculous. I despise tucking and therefore love jeans.

[Ox]

An interesting thought. I've worn untucked shirts with khakis and looked fine (okay, maybe I looked like an escapee from a mental institution, but I thought I looked fine). But nowadays I always tuck my shirt in regardless of my pants anyway.

[Johan]

To be successful in society, you have to be willing to some degree to modulate the way you act, speak, and dress depending upon the circumstance.

That's not betraying your true self, that's having self-control, social awareness, maturity, dignity, respect for others, and a sense that the world is bigger than just yourself.

[Gorvi]

To be successful in society, you have to be willing to some degree to modulate the way you act, speak, and dress depending upon the circumstance.

That's not betraying your true self, that's having self-control, social awareness, maturity, dignity, respect for others, and a sense that the world is bigger than just yourself.
Absolutely. But that's part of being an adult, knowing that there's a time when you must conform to do what needs to be done and a time where you can be yourself. That alone is one lesson I really hope I get right with my kids, because most people don't seem to understand the concept.

[Johan]

Absolutely.

Wait...you really believe that? I was just shitting. ;)

[ClannerDelta]

An interesting thought. I've worn untucked shirts with khakis and looked fine (okay, maybe I looked like an escapee from a mental institution, but I thought I looked fine). But nowadays I always tuck my shirt in regardless of my pants anyway.

That's just a part of growing old. Soon you'll be wearing your pants around your armpits.

[Ox]

I wear braces, so I'd have to consciously decide to change the height of the ride.

I once went to see James Brown in concert toward the end of his life (well, I once got to be in the front row). I was shocked to discover his waistband rode around the level of his nipples. He was still the Godfather of Soul, but he was reminding me of the Marlon Brando type of Godfather.

[Gorvi]

Wait...you really believe that? I was just shitting. ;)
Isn't that the foundation for most of your posts? ;)

[pomeroy]

All I'm going to say is that I love wearing a tie.

[Hotcod]

I was doing unpaid work for a while at a charity. While i was there as part of a course thing 4 days a week 9-5 i was around the front desk and expected to dress smart. Which i did. After the course was over i carried on doing work there off my own back once or twice a week. I dressed like i normally do. Which did include jeans. But i tended to have a few tasks to do... photocopying mainly... which i could do then go i wasn't around the front desk as much as wasn't ever there to welcome people.

I have no idea what this has to do with the debate in this thread other than to say that dressing smart is relative to what you are doing. Even what you ware in your social group is relative. Which is why groups of friends for the most tend to dress around the same level of "smart".

I think the problem for older people is that being successful is no longer linked to class systems. It's an idea that's was braking down through out the 20th century but simply put if you where successful you where expected to be upper of "true" middle class. Didn't matter if you where born to it but as you became successful you wanted, and where expected to show it by moving "up" in class. So the image of success was the image of the middle and higher class, which is suits and ties and the like. Given that the class system has mostly gone in that sense then there is no longer a reason for smart to mean successful. Those people who a 100 years ago would have started dressing up because it was expected of them no longer have the class lader to climb. They don't have to show or prove they are sucsseful by the way they dress, every one knows they are.

Of course people still do, since if you have money you have nice things but the point i'm making is that if you run a muiltmillion doller company like gates or jobs do and your working life hasn't needed you to dress up that much then there is no reason to if you don't want to. So long as you don't look a mess what the problems with wearing jeans?

Which is what is harder for older people to understand i think and what is at the heart of the rant that started this thread

[Ox]

Of course people still do, since if you have money you have nice things but the point i'm making is that if you run a muiltmillion doller company like gates or jobs do and your working life hasn't needed you to dress up that much then there is no reason to if you don't want to. So long as you don't look a mess what the problems with wearing jeans?
Frankly, I'd find that kind of annoying. Let's say I was a client whom Bill Gates needed to meet with personally. Obviously, I know Bill Gates is successful. He doesn't really need to impress me. He could show up in a "Yo Momma So Fat" shirt if he wanted. But if he put on a tie, I'd take that as an indication he viewed me, a man with far less success, as someone still worthy enough of his respect that he would undergo a minor inconvenience to demonstrate respect. It would impress me.

By contrast, if he dresses the way he would hanging out eating Cheetos, I know he doesn't think meeting with me is any more important than hanging out eating Cheetos. Which is a little insulting. And given the obvious imbalance in our relative success and power, this insult is all the more obnoxious.

It's one thing to dress disrespectfully when meeting with equals or superiors -- that merely indicates insolence. But to dress disrespectfully when meeting with inferiors implies condescension. It's like when a superior addresses you by your Christian name even as you address him as "Mr." or "sir." There are few social attitudes more noxious to a democrat than superiority.

[torrefaction]

I disagree with the fundamental notion that dressing nice is for other people AND that it implies respect.

Actions and words are the only thing that grant respect. Not the method of dress.

[torrefaction]

To be successful in society, you have to be willing to some degree to modulate the way you act, speak, and dress depending upon the circumstance.

That's not betraying your true self, that's having self-control, social awareness, maturity, dignity, respect for others, and a sense that the world is bigger than just yourself.

I disagree to some extent. Sometimes it's necessary, but othertimes you can get by on your knowledge and talent alone, quite honestly. I've conformed very little, and refuse to play the politics game at just about every corner.

Granted, I'd probably get ahead faster if I was a suckup who didn't wear shorts and t-shirts to work. But I still do well, still get great reviews, and nothing has stood in my way thus far.

[Whunpo]

I disagree with the fundamental notion that dressing nice is for other people AND that it implies respect.

Actions and words are the only thing that grant respect. Not the method of dress.

I think of dressing nice as an action that makes people respect me. When I dress up, it shows someone that I went to the effort of wearing nice, clean, uncomfortable clothes to show that I also respect them.

[mister slim]

Note: If your pants don't have rivets pounded through them you might as well be a woman.

[Alatheia]

But wool naturally repels a lot of the dirt and sweat that denim sucks up like a two-dollar whore.

I disagree!

I can brush most things off of jeans with my hands and it's gone but if anything gets near any of the wool things I've knit it sticks to it like glue and I actually have to pick it off. The real difference comes when the two fabrics are wet, with wool it's still nice and toasty but wet denim is so very cold :(

Does it make me an abomination for wearing wool items with jeans? :p

If guys have to wear suits, that means I have to wear a dress/skirt and that is not happening :mad:

[Kelegacy]

From the comment section, a quote from CS Lewis that's applicable:

Exactly. My friend and I, who isn't a gamer at all, have talked about this in length. I'm as much a grown man as the next adult, and just because I can sit down and play a game, or read graphic novels (OMG comics!) in public, or watch cartoons, doesn't mean I'm immature. The people who look down on others because they haven't grown up or whatever are, in reality, the ones who aren't mature. It's great irony.

Being an mature adult is essentially being responsible, by being a great father, husband, a good member of society, etc. There are some that are not, but not wearing jeans is not criteria for true adulthood.

The more youthful you are, the more you can enjoy life. The notion of rigidity and conformity is not adulthood. Life is a damn hive mind.

I know a woman here in the office who is 61 and has the soul of a 20-year old. She enjoys life. I know other 61 year olds who are the exact opposite. Basically, do what makes you happy in life, live by your own rules (within reason). I think I'm going to be a better father to my unborn son because of my youthful personality. That doesn't mean I won't discipline him or that he'll turn out like a spoiled brat. It means I can enjoy his youth by mingling it with my own and hopefully I can understand him and instill the same sense of youthful life enjoyment that I grew up with and still have. Though we'll be separated by 28 years, I think we'll be able to relate and I'll be able to enjoy and take part in the things he does. Youth isn't something you grow out of.

I'm an extremely mature adult, but I also have a big kid inside. I love that.

[Primus]

Society is extremely casual nowadays. It's just how it is I guess, but still, some people are inappropriate with it. 30ish years ago even business casual wouldn't be an option at the workplace, unless your workplace was in Silicon Valley. Now a polo shirt would be considered "nice".

The bar keeps getting lower.

[Bad Buddha]

All I'm going to say is that I love wearing a tie.
I'll go along with this. When I get dressed up, I feel sharp and I know I look sharp. There's a fair amount of pride that goes along with getting all spiffied up and dressing to the nines!

However; There's a time and a place for everything. I might get all dressed up if I'm meeting a business client or if I'm taking my wife out - Just because I want to look good in those situations. It's a show of respect for the people that I'm going to be spending time with. But chances are, if I'm riding my motorcycle, working in the lawn or configuring workstations and crawling around under desks, I'm going to be wearing jeans.

But for true style, to hell with your troosers!

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3897/dadsmallic8.jpg

[Hotcod]

Frankly, I'd find that kind of annoying. Let's say I was a client whom Bill Gates needed to meet with personally. Obviously, I know Bill Gates is successful. He doesn't really need to impress me. He could show up in a "Yo Momma So Fat" shirt if he wanted. But if he put on a tie, I'd take that as an indication he viewed me, a man with far less success, as someone still worthy enough of his respect that he would undergo a minor inconvenience to demonstrate respect. It would impress me.

So you ignore the rest of the post to take something out of context so you can repeat the same point you have all thread? fun. What i was saying is that if he wants to stand up in front of the press to talk about a new windows he can do it in jeans because there is no reason for him to be dressed up. It's not expected or needed and this idea that doing that is some how disrespectful is frankly dumb but because of old ideas of doing well being linked to class older people often have a hard time dealing with when people who are rich and doing well don't go out of there way to "move" classes to show it.

Like i said at the start of my post the way you dress is relative to what you are doing. When bill is going to a meeting with some one to do business i'm sure he dresses smart enough but if his just doing general work around the office (while he was still doing it) i'm sure that his dressed the way he wants to.

The point is that dressing "well" is not longer an indication of how successful you are because the class system that enforced that idea hardly exists any more.

[roboninja]

I absolutely despise suits & ties, and wear them as little as possible. If I was required to wear them at my work, I would look for a new job. Now, strangely enough, I own only one pair of jeans. Khakis or other cotton pants are what I wear most, usually with buttoned shirts (though rarely tucked). I just find that outfit more comfortable.

I am sporting my hoodie at work today. :)

As for this whole "respect" angle, I do not give people respect for wearing a suit. In fact, it might be more the opposite.

[Kelegacy]

I wear khakis everyday and prefer them, except on the weekends when I wear jeans. I seem to have trouble lately finding really good khakis at stores that aren't pleated or too business-like, but aren't so casual as to have cargo pockets. Every damn pair I find seems to have cargo pockets on the sides. I think that's too casual for my workplace, but I wear them anyway. Guess I have to take another trip to the Gap to find duplicates of my favorite pair. But I hate the Gap.

I used to wear ties everyday, though my office doesn't require it. I slowly fazed them out to the point where I rarely ever wear them. I don't mind them, however. I like dressing up.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Frankly, I'd find that kind of annoying. Let's say I was a client whom Bill Gates needed to meet with personally. Obviously, I know Bill Gates is successful. He doesn't really need to impress me. He could show up in a "Yo Momma So Fat" shirt if he wanted. But if he put on a tie, I'd take that as an indication he viewed me, a man with far less success, as someone still worthy enough of his respect that he would undergo a minor inconvenience to demonstrate respect. It would impress me.

That's fine for a business meeting. I dress up for interviews, too. But going to the mall? Who there am I showing respect to?


By contrast, if he dresses the way he would hanging out eating Cheetos, I know he doesn't think meeting with me is any more important than hanging out eating Cheetos. Which is a little insulting. And given the obvious imbalance in our relative success and power, this insult is all the more obnoxious.

I'm just not feeling it. I don't feel respected by someone wearing very nice clothing, I feel condescension. I'd feel far more comfortable called into a business meeting with Gates where he had a dress shirt and no tie rather than a full suit.

[Urizen]

First of all, it's completely unnecessary to call out George Will as a 'jackass'. I think that reinforces the childish bullshit he's accusing young people of today. So the OP made Will's point for him to an extent.

That's my take to begin with. If it's George Will speaking, chances are he's got his shit more together than whoever is listening. If you find yourself mortified and disgusted in your knee jerk reaction, you should probably swallow some pride and see where Mr. Will is going.

Call it suspension of disbelief if you want but sometimes the message earns credibility simply on the authority of the messenger.

One of my English professors once remarked about how the instructors in Humanities departments had to dress for the occasion of a lecture because of the nature and content of their message, which had to do with intuition and interpretation. Instructors in the Hard Sciences could, and often did, dress in their gym clothes because they showed up and lectured about laws, theories and formulae.

But it's not the jeans so much that Will is lambasting. Jeans are just the archetypal symbol. I imagine trucker caps, exposed underwear and sports jerseys four sizes too large for the wearer could be just as easily tackled.

If you think Will's an asshole, wait till you hear the fuck Obama wants you to do.

C4ubCXkJjys

[Virtual Pariah]

I disagree with the fundamental notion that dressing nice is for other people AND that it implies respect.

Actions and words are the only thing that grant respect. Not the method of dress.

I agree with this concept, but think it's a generational thing.
Society is changing, but, there will still be people who cling to old methods and concepts for awhile.

[Ox]

If guys have to wear suits, that means I have to wear a dress/skirt and that is not happening :mad:
There are pantsuits. My office started letting women wear those a few years ago. It was a big concession from the boss, but she finally gave in.

That's fine for a business meeting. I dress up for interviews, too. But going to the mall? Who there am I showing respect to?
I'm not saying you have to wear a three-piece suit to go to the mall. But the store clerks, other patrons, etc. all appreciate a higher level of dress. I've definitely found a subtle difference in how warmly I'm received at restaurants, stores, etc. based on my dress. Even something as simple as wearing a shirt with a collar can make a difference.

What i was saying is that if he wants to stand up in front of the press to talk about a new windows he can do it in jeans because there is no reason for him to be dressed up. It's not expected
Okay, if it's not expected, it's not necessary. Which is what I was saying all along. Wearing a suit in that context would be supererogatory.

The notion of rigidity and conformity is not adulthood.
I can accept that. But consider: some people in this thread have said they would feel uncomfortable and be questioned in the office if they dressed up. Who, then, is the rigid conformist?

EDIT: This gets back to Will's article and the article he was referencing. Wearing jeans outside of manual labor was originally a mark of rebellion. Now, everybody wears jeans all the time. If it's nonconformist, it's nonconformist in the exact same way everyone else is.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I'm not saying you have to wear a three-piece suit to go to the mall. But the store clerks, other patrons, etc. all appreciate a higher level of dress. I've definitely found a subtle difference in how warmly I'm received at restaurants, stores, etc. based on my dress. Even something as simple as wearing a shirt with a collar can make a difference.

Well, yes. Looking rich means people are nicer to you, but that doesn't mean the average Joe shouldn't try to rise above judging people based on dress. There's "I'm fairly casual" and there's "My appearance is incredibly important to me". I'd also remind you that your occupation requires you to sell ideas on a day-to-day basis, whereas mine is to write code.

Accepting people's biases are one thing (as I said, I dress up for interviews), but that doesn't invalidate my opinion that we should stop caring about it.

[Ox]

I'd also remind you that your occupation requires you to sell ideas on a day-to-day basis, whereas mine is to write code.
On 95% of the days I'm selling ideas, nobody ever sees me. I'm identified by name, but most of the time I'm no more physically visible at work than I am to you right now. I still wear a full suit and tie.

Accepting people's biases are one thing (as I said, I dress up for interviews), but that doesn't invalidate my opinion that we should stop caring about it.
We shouldn't care about physical manifestations of respect? Why?

[Ancalagon]

Instructors in the Hard Sciences could, and often did, dress in their gym clothes because they showed up and lectured about laws, theories and formulae.

I'm confused here. I studied science for four years and didnt know my lecturers had anything remotely resembling gym clothes in their wardrobe. I really dont get what you mean by this.

[Raen]

I'm confused here. I studied science for four years and didnt know my lecturers had anything remotely resembling gym clothes in their wardrobe. I really dont get what you mean by this.

I've definitely seen my CS lecturers in what I'd call gym clothes. One of them did dress a little nicer last year (first year at this Uni) but this year he seems to have lowered his dress standard some what.

[TheFlyingOrc]

We shouldn't care about physical manifestations of respect? Why?
Well, for starters, I'm against any system of evaluating others which they can fail at by no fault of their own. Actually, my fellow Christian:


1My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don't show favoritism. 2Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?


To a point, the practice of "clothes showing respect" is a practice steeped in a desire to look down on those who do not meet the standard, not to reward those who do.

I find it difficult to "prove" my point, as judging people based on outward qualities feels, to me, as a self-evident moral infraction.

Finally, as myself and many others have demonstrated - you are not accurately determining if the other person has respect. Many, many, many people dress nicely only due to the consequences of doing otherwise, and actually have very little respect for those around them. This is especially true as much of Gen-Y dresses nicely in an ironic manner (I find it particularly infuriating when older people do not realize this is going on).

Clothes showing respect simply isn't how modern society works, with the exception of some fields where such things are slow to change. Law is certainly one of those.

[Alatheia]

But for true style, to hell with your troosers!

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3897/dadsmallic8.jpg

Buddha wins the sexy award! Kilts are much better looking than suits! :cool:

There are pantsuits. My office started letting women wear those a few years ago. It was a big concession from the boss, but she finally gave in.

Oh yeah, those horrid things that are always sold as a set and I don't know any woman who wears the same size on the top as the bottom. If I wanted a pantsuit I'd have to wait until it was on clearance so I could actually afford to buy the set in two sizes. Not going to happen.

I'm not saying you have to wear a three-piece suit to go to the mall. But the store clerks, other patrons, etc. all appreciate a higher level of dress. I've definitely found a subtle difference in how warmly I'm received at restaurants, stores, etc. based on my dress. Even something as simple as wearing a shirt with a collar can make a difference.

I'm going to say that this *highly* depends on how the store pays their employees. When I worked retail it was always for a wage and when people that had come in wearing suits, and other equivalents, left we made fun of them, especially if they had tried on clothes. In a store that pays employees based on commission then you will get treated much differently if you're wearing a suit instead of a pair of jeans. The employees will think you have money but there will be no respect given for it.

Retail stores try to teach their employees (aside from Loss Prevention) to treat everyone the same, no matter what they're wearing because it's a form of discrimination.

http://pics.livejournal.com/katybean/pic/000aa511