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Jboy001
04-09-2009, 01:58 PM
io9 is "reporting" that Felicia Day has posted on her Twitter account that the season finale she is a guest star in will not air

Edit: Spoilers at the link so beware...


Link: http://io9.com/5205648/you-wont-get-your-alan-tudykfelicia-day-fix-on-dollhouse


now, logic dictates that if you have a finale filmed, and you aren't going to air it, its canceled...

I personally enjoyed the series, it wasn't great but it was a good concept and the characters were getting interesting and more developed...

hopefully Sarah Connor makes the cut as it's finale airs tomorrow night...

2nd Edit: looks like the articles updated with the following:

Update: The Hollywood Reporter says that Fox is insisting that Dollhouse is not canceled after all. They just don't feel like airing the season finale. From Fox's standpoint, the network ordered 13 episodes of the show, and Joss shot two pilots. So if you count both pilots as episodes, then the 12 aired episodes complete Fox's order.

Apparently, the final episode which will air, "Omega," represents Joss' original vision for the end of the season, so we won't feel a lack of closure. But the actual unaired season finale, "Epitaph One," is directed by Joss himself and is his actual final statement. Worst of all, it's not actually certain that the episode will appear on DVD or elsewhere - nothing's decided yet, and Fox may decide not to pay for post-production on the episode.

Goronmon
04-09-2009, 02:10 PM
Link also says it might not be canceled.

AgtFox
04-09-2009, 02:11 PM
Sorry to say there is only one Friday show I can remember that survived the Fox death night: X-Files. Outside of that I can't think of any other Fox show that has survived a move to Friday nights or placement on Friday from the beginning.

Maybe Sarah Conner will change that, but the odds are stacked against it.

pomeroy
04-09-2009, 02:12 PM
Stick a fork in it...

Jboy001
04-09-2009, 02:12 PM
Link also says it might not be canceled.

yea they updated after I posted it, and I have updated my OP accordingly.

thanks :)

rein
04-09-2009, 02:32 PM
io9 is "reporting" that Felicia Day has posted on her Twitter account that the season finale she is a guest star in will not air

Edit: Spoilers at the link so beware...


Link: http://io9.com/5205648/you-wont-get-your-alan-tudykfelicia-day-fix-on-dollhouse


now, logic dictates that if you have a finale filmed, and you aren't going to air it, its canceled...

I personally enjoyed the series, it wasn't great but it was a good concept and the characters were getting interesting and more developed...

hopefully Sarah Connor makes the cut as it's finale airs tomorrow night...

I'm going to be extremely unhappy if TSCC gets cancelled. I expect it but I am holding out hope for at least a half order for next season. Dollhouse could have been better. It may be my failing memory, but imo most Whedon series start out a tad slow. Angel really sticks out in my mind.

It will suck if Dollhouse does not get to finish out the season. It looks like it might but I wouldn't expect a next season.

They just don't feel like airing the season finale.
This part of the update on the site really made me lol.

Disgustipated
04-09-2009, 02:38 PM
Yeah, Fox is killing it. Douches.

Virtual Pariah
04-09-2009, 02:49 PM
Firefly all over again.
On one hand I admire Fox for trying Sci-Fi series. On the other, I hate the fact that the sabotage every one of them.

The network just doesn't make sense to me.

Telefrog
04-09-2009, 02:50 PM
When will people learn? Fox and genre shows should not mix.

Ten19
04-09-2009, 02:57 PM
I like how even after FOX sabotaged the future of Firefly, Joss decided to work with them again, saying it's an entirely new generation. And now they're screwing over his latest show.

How many times does it take getting burned to stop reaching for the hot pan?

pomeroy
04-09-2009, 03:01 PM
I like how even after FOX sabotaged the future of Firefly, Joss decided to work with them again, saying it's an entirely new generation. And now they're screwing over his latest show.

How many times does it take getting burned to stop reaching for the hot pan?

It was more that Eliza Dushku had a contract with Fox to make another show and she begged Whedon on board. It wasn't like Fox was beating his door down.

Stoke
04-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Firefly all over again.
On one hand I admire Fox for trying Sci-Fi series. On the other, I hate the fact that the sabotage every one of them.

The network just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, you really can't blame this one on Fox. Dollhouse was shit, at least in the beginning. I've heard it picks up in later episodes but if the show can't at least start well then it's killing itself.

Spectre-7
04-09-2009, 03:05 PM
Well, you really can't blame this one on Fox. Dollhouse was shit, at least in the beginning. I've heard it picks up in later episodes but if the show can't at least start well then it's killing itself.

That's arguably Fox's fault as well.

Stoke
04-09-2009, 03:09 PM
That's arguably Fox's fault as well.

Well yeah. They could have just not aired the show but then the Whedonites would complain about that. Fox couldn't win this one.

Spectre-7
04-09-2009, 03:16 PM
Well yeah. They could have just not aired the show but then the Whedonites would complain about that. Fox couldn't win this one.

No, no, no... There are reports that Fox meddled heavily in the production during the first few episodes. The quality of the series picked up noticeably around episode 6, which (rumour has it) is when Fox finally extricated their heads from Whedon's ass.

muddi900
04-09-2009, 03:18 PM
It is inevitable. They're not going to get any better ratings on friday. Even if it does get renewed, it will probably be canceled by Christmas break 2009. Kinda like Pushing Daisies:(

Stoke
04-09-2009, 03:23 PM
No, no, no... There are reports that Fox meddled heavily in the production during the first few episodes. The quality of the series picked up noticeably around episode 6, which (rumour has it) is when Fox finally extricated their heads from Whedon's ass.

Ah, sorry. I obviously misunderstood. If that is true then yeah, Fox obviously has a share of the blame here.

Wedge
04-09-2009, 03:53 PM
The quality of the series picked up noticeably around episode 6, which (rumour has it) is when Fox finally extricated their heads from Whedon's ass.

The rumor stems from Dushku, I believe. She basically said "Stick around for episode 6! That is when Fox let Whedon be Whedon!"

Anywho. The only Whedon show I feel hit the ground running was Firefly (I saw it in the right order). Both Buffy and Angel (particulary Buffy, imho) started slow. Not slow as in methodical and building up to something, just slow and somewhat awkward. Both turned out to be among my favorite shows ever anyways, so I am sad to see Dollhouse go the way of the dodo.

Sandman
04-09-2009, 04:10 PM
Last I heard FOX may be moving it over to Mondays for a second chance.....I hope they do keep it.

AgtFox
04-09-2009, 04:13 PM
Last I heard FOX may be moving it over to Mondays for a second chance.....I hope they do keep it.Unless they move House or 24, I HIGHLY doubt this. I guess it could go on before 24 comes around in January, but I think it would suffer the same fate Sarah Conner did when it was in the Monday slot.

Sandman
04-09-2009, 04:16 PM
Unless they move House or 24, I HIGHLY doubt this. I guess it could go on before 24 comes around in January, but I think it would suffer the same fate Sarah Conner did when it was in the Monday slot.

I think the article I read said it would be a lead in for 24 and that's how they originally had it planned. They changed it to make Friday night a sci-fi genre night. Nice idea but they were up against the final season of BSG. I think Dollhouse fits as a better lead in for 24 than House.

pomeroy
04-09-2009, 04:27 PM
I think Dollhouse fits as a better lead in for 24 than House.

I don't think crappy shows are usually a good lead-in.

Stoke
04-09-2009, 05:29 PM
I think the article I read said it would be a lead in for 24 and that's how they originally had it planned. They changed it to make Friday night a sci-fi genre night. Nice idea but they were up against the final season of BSG. I think Dollhouse fits as a better lead in for 24 than House.

But are they really going to move House again so soon? It's only been in this slot for a couple months.

BlackPete
04-09-2009, 06:37 PM
http://www.toplessrobot.com/2009/04/tv_news_trifecta_fringe_lost_dollhouse.php

Dollhouse is unofficially canceled, and officially fucked. Actress Felicia Day (nerd goddess and star of Dr. Horrible) just twittered that her Dollhouse ep was going straight to DVD... which was also the episode which revealed Alpha and the season finale. So sometime between now and May 8th, Dollhouse is going off the air, almost certainly for good. And another Joss Whedon shows bites the ignomious dust.

Harv
04-09-2009, 06:45 PM
I'll be disappointed if it is canceled as the show is actually doing pretty well overall I'd say.

Fuck FOX if they cancel it. Between this and Firefly they will be dead to me.

DiBiddilyBop
04-09-2009, 06:58 PM
I've really enjoyed Dollhouse, especially the latter episodes. I'm really bummed about this news.

Farsight
04-09-2009, 07:03 PM
Its ratings started weak, and have consistently dropped week by week. Official or not, it's toast.

Frankly, I'm more disappointed that TERMINATOR is likely joining it on the scrap heap, as it's a significantly better show...

Ravenlock
04-09-2009, 08:26 PM
I don't mean to ruin the rainy day party, but according to E!, the episode that got cut was not the finale, not the episode in which Alpha gets revealed, and not in fact even tied to the current season's storyline (http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b117929_dollhouse_heres_deal_on_season_finale.html ). It was a standalone episode that Fox studios was told to produce but which Fox network (the Fox TV studio and the Fox network being separate entities) is choosing not to air. The story arc of Season 1 is still slated to air in its entirety.

Whether we get a season 2 or not, of course, is still very doubtful, but we shouldn't be cheated out of anything we were actually ever going to get in season 1.

Xydarc
04-09-2009, 11:24 PM
Joss needs to stay away from Network TV and hit up a cable channel. Or maybe HBO or Showtime for his next one.

muddi900
04-09-2009, 11:34 PM
Joss needs to stay away from Network TV and hit up a cable channel. Or maybe HBO or Showtime for his next one.

OR a basic cable channel that doies good stuff like FX or AMC.

Generation ABXY
04-09-2009, 11:56 PM
If this is indeed the case, I can't say I'm too surprised. Though it was somewhat interesting, the series didn't really start with that much of a bang - hell, I never got back to it after stopping the third episode about halfway through. If you ask me, they should have started with something like that second episode and kept the action ramped up, at least for those first few episodes or so.

It may have gotten better later on (like the rumored sixth episode or whatever it was), but if the rest of America is anything like me, they lost interest well before then. Blame who you want.

Zero
04-10-2009, 07:36 AM
I'm going to be extremely unhappy if TSCC gets cancelled. I expect it but I am holding out hope for at least a half order for next season. Dollhouse could have been better. It may be my failing memory, but imo most Whedon series start out a tad slow. Angel really sticks out in my mind.

It will suck if Dollhouse does not get to finish out the season. It looks like it might but I wouldn't expect a next season.


This part of the update on the site really made me lol.

Sarah Connor has even less of a chance than Dollhouse.

Deadend
04-10-2009, 01:49 PM
Sarah Connor has even less of a chance than Dollhouse.

You think Fox would have delayed the current season a bit to pick up on the Terminator: Salvation hype. You would also think they would stop trying to have new TV shows on Friday night. Friday Night is ONLY good for All-Ages TV in my mind.

At least Dollhouse isn't getting the same shit treatment by the network that Kings is getting.

rein
04-10-2009, 02:00 PM
You think Fox would have delayed the current season a bit to pick up on the Terminator: Salvation hype. You would also think they would stop trying to have new TV shows on Friday night. Friday Night is ONLY good for All-Ages TV in my mind.

At least Dollhouse isn't getting the same shit treatment by the network that Kings is getting.

Saturday nights are for repeats of previous week shows. I guess I no longer have to worry about the direction they are taking the show.

torrefaction
04-10-2009, 02:16 PM
Sarah Connor has even less of a chance than Dollhouse.

Why do you say that? Because of the budget?

Vermillion
04-10-2009, 02:22 PM
Felicia Day as a doll. That should have been episode 1. Then we wouldn't be having these discussions on cancellations....

She makes my cookie monster say NOM NOM NOM.

Zero
04-10-2009, 03:21 PM
Why do you say that? Because of the budget?

Budget, total viewers, and the demographic rating. Last I heard TSCC was still bleeding viewers, while Dollhouse actually had a small uptick and stabilized.

Ravenlock
04-10-2009, 08:20 PM
Tonight's episode was pretty damn awesome. One of their best, IMO. Whether they get a 2nd season or not, I'm looking forward to seeing how they wrap this one up.

boratika
04-11-2009, 04:38 AM
Tonight's episode was pretty damn awesome. One of their best, IMO. Whether they get a 2nd season or not, I'm looking forward to seeing how they wrap this one up.

Stupid having to wait until off-peak times to download this.

SilentScreams
04-11-2009, 05:40 AM
Fuck Fox. Seriously.
Why does every show I love have to be on Fox? It always ends badly.

Lance Uppercut
04-12-2009, 12:04 PM
Not surprised at all, taking those first episodes into consideration.

There's actually a betting pool over at the Something Awful forums for predicting when the show is gonna be canceled.

Philonious
04-12-2009, 12:30 PM
It's turned out to be a pretty solid show despite the slow start. I just hope that the season finale offers some sort of resolution if it has been canceled. I'm also not sure how many seasons the plot could hold out for... I mean they eventually escape the Dollhouse, then what? Get put into a Panamanian prison? Take the Dollhouse down with Micheal and Lincoln? But the plot is moving along nicely, and it is actually one of the most interesting things that I'm watching lately.

Satertek
04-12-2009, 10:13 PM
There's alot of FUD in this thread, so lets let Mr. Minear clear it up:

Okay. So maybe I can help clarify this somewhat. Because we scrapped the original pilot -- and in fact cannibalized some of its parts for other eps -- we really ended up with 12 episodes. But the studio makes DVD and other deals based on the original 13 number. So we created a standalone kind of coda episode. Which is the mythical new episode 13. The network had already paid for 13 episodes, and this included the one they agreed to let us scrap for parts. It does not include the one we made to bring the number back up to 13 for the studio side and its obligations. We always knew it would be for the DVD for sure, but we also think Fox should air it because it’s awesome.

-Tim Minear on Whedonesque (http://whedonesque.com/comments/19822#304585)



So basically, this by itself doesn't mean the show is canceled, just that FOX had never agreed to air this episode from the start. They did an extra episode specifically for the DVD, and air rights of it weren't in the original contract with FOX TV.

Chances are still slim...but at least it's something.

Ravenlock
04-12-2009, 10:57 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that a page ago (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=228109&postcount=28), but who knows, maybe they'll listen to you. ;)

Spectre-7
04-12-2009, 11:01 PM
I can't believe it's already been canceled! I mean, Fox won't even show the last episode!!! What fucking douche bags!!!!!!!!!!!!
Come on... someone had to do it.

Ravenlock
04-12-2009, 11:16 PM
Thread over. :p

Deadend
04-12-2009, 11:26 PM
Well, that would make for an AWESOME DVD extra.

boratika
04-12-2009, 11:51 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that a page ago (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=228109&postcount=28), but who knows, maybe they'll listen to you. ;)

*SIGH* Curse you word limit!

Sandman
04-12-2009, 11:55 PM
Yeah, I mentioned that a page ago (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=228109&postcount=28), but who knows, maybe they'll listen to you. ;)

50 posts per page!!!!

Spectre-7
04-13-2009, 12:01 AM
20 posts per page!

boratika
04-13-2009, 12:05 AM
π posts per page!!!

Widgetcraft
04-13-2009, 02:08 PM
I like how even after FOX sabotaged the future of Firefly, Joss decided to work with them again, saying it's an entirely new generation. And now they're screwing over his latest show.

How many times does it take getting burned to stop reaching for the hot pan?

No body watched Dollhouse, not because it wasn't advertised, or it got shifted around... it just wasn't very good. There are a lot of legitimate complaints about how Fox treated Firefly, but beyond sticking it on Fridays to begin with, Fox has been on the up-and-up with Dollhouse. They advertised the hell out of it, really.

Spectre-7
04-13-2009, 02:14 PM
No body watched Dollhouse, not because it wasn't advertised, or it got shifted around... it just wasn't very good. There are a lot of legitimate complaints about how Fox treated Firefly, but beyond sticking it on Fridays to begin with, Fox has been on the up-and-up with Dollhouse. They advertised the hell out of it, really.

Based on the first few episodes, I'd tend to agree with you, but that's not the whole story... I'll just quote myself from earlier in the thread:

No, no, no... There are reports that Fox meddled heavily in the production during the first few episodes. The quality of the series picked up noticeably around episode 6, which (rumour has it) is when Fox finally extricated their heads from Whedon's ass.

Farsight
04-14-2009, 02:13 AM
FOX just wanted a pilot that didn't suck. Even with two tries, Whedon failed to deliver that (I've seen multiple script reviews of the original unaired pilot that agree that it was even worse than the terrible one that aired). Whedon can develop long-term storylines well; that's never been in doubt. But he seems to really struggle with filtering his big ideas down to the basics so that a new audience can follow and enjoy them. He doesn't have to capture the attention of his fanbase, they're along for almost any ride. Growing that audience to a size that will keep him on network TV seems to be beyond his ability.

He either needs to move to cable, where his niche would be an acceptable ratings number, or he should hire someone else to write his next pilot...

SilentScreams
04-14-2009, 04:11 AM
Maybe the pilot for Dollhouse wasn't great, but the pilot for Firefly was awesome, so he certainly can write them.
I agree that it seems a bit hit and miss though, because if I remember right the pilot for Angel was pretty weak too, while Buffy was fairly decent.

boratika
04-14-2009, 04:53 AM
Maybe the pilot for Dollhouse wasn't great, but the pilot for Firefly was awesome, so he certainly can write them.
I agree that it seems a bit hit and miss though, because if I remember right the pilot for Angel was pretty weak too, while Buffy was fairly decent.

Serenity (the episode) was incredibly awesome, but The Train Job, which was essentially a pilot since Fox didn't want to air the actual pilot, was kind of mediocre (at least compared to the rest of the show.) So I hypostulate that a single length episode isn't enough to establish some crazy mythos.

That or it was a bunch easier to establish the Firefly mythos because we're already familiar with westerners and space and so most of the establishment is already covered before we even start watching. Where as Dollhouse isn't things we are already familiar with.

Farsight
04-14-2009, 04:58 AM
I thought the pilot for Firefly (the real one) was even worse AS A PILOT than the one FOX aired. It did a horrible job of introducing the world and characters and establishing what the show would be about. As an episode of a show you'd already decided to watch, it was quite good... but as an attempt to convince you why you should watch the show, it was a mess.

Whedon seems to really want to skip to about season 3 of his new shows. FIREFLY and DOLLHOUSE both suffer from being all over the place thematically, with characters and plotlines tossed at the viewer as if they've been watching for years, and wouldn't think of turning the channel.

At least FIREFLY didn't compound the issue by making River (a totally unrelatable mystery of a character) the central character.

boratika
04-14-2009, 05:20 AM
I thought the pilot for Firefly (the real one) was even worse AS A PILOT than the one FOX aired. It did a horrible job of introducing the world and characters and establishing what the show would be about. As an episode of a show you'd already decided to watch, it was quite good... but as an attempt to convince you why you should watch the show, it was a mess.

I see you and I see things exactly oppositely.

Ravenlock
04-14-2009, 08:46 AM
I thought the pilot for Firefly (the real one) was even worse AS A PILOT than the one FOX aired. It did a horrible job of introducing the world and characters and establishing what the show would be about. As an episode of a show you'd already decided to watch, it was quite good... but as an attempt to convince you why you should watch the show, it was a mess.

I also think this is 100% wrong. Serenity was one of the best pilots I've seen for any show, ever, and I think it did a perfect job of introducing each and every character and setting up a compelling narrative from the first shot to the last.

Every single person I've showed Serenity (to be clear, the "real" pilot of Firefly, not Serenity the film) to - including my wife who traditionally doesn't like science fiction shows at all and a slew of coworkers, friends, and family members - has immediately wanted to watch more and gone on to finish the whole series and film. It literally hasn't failed to capture anyone I've tried it with.

AgtFox
04-14-2009, 02:27 PM
No news on Dollhouse, but Terminator seems to be cooked (http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/04/scoop-fox-set-t.html?cnn=yes). May 18th is the day we will know for sure I guess.

Codicier
04-14-2009, 02:37 PM
Another vote for completely disagreeing with Farsight on the original Firefly pilot.

Kagger
04-14-2009, 03:41 PM
Another vote for completely disagreeing with Farsight on the original Firefly pilot.

Serenity (Pilot) is all one needs to see to see Serenity (Movie). Every Character is brought in slowly. You see Mal's sick/funny side and his protective side. You only get a glimpse of River. You seem to know the entire Mal/Inara history from the single exchange with Book. There is just enough hook about Reavers.

I've seen it probably around 5-6 times because I watch that episode with everyone.

Jboy001
04-14-2009, 03:51 PM
No news on Dollhouse, but Terminator seems to be cooked (http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2009/04/scoop-fox-set-t.html?cnn=yes). May 18th is the day we will know for sure I guess.

after that finale they better renew it... I for one loved both terminator and dollhouse last friday

Farsight
04-14-2009, 05:36 PM
Another vote for completely disagreeing with Farsight on the original Firefly pilot.

I'm completely comfortable with that. :)

Anyways, FIREFLY is a dead horse. Whedon's failure with DOLLHOUSE is the issue now. Blaming FOX again would be a mistake. Whedon produced a show with an obtuse premise, an unrelatable main character, and a horrible first handful of episodes. It gets better as it goes, but only those of us willing to wade through a mire with Whedon are still watching.

I just fear Whedon's listening too much to the praise of his fans, and not recognizing the mistakes he's made in how he presented FIREFLY and DOLLHOUSE to the uninitiated. Both shows seem to assume you're along for the long haul, and make no effort to appeal to people that aren't already fans of his work.

Ravenlock
04-14-2009, 06:40 PM
Anyways, FIREFLY is a dead horse. Whedon's failure with DOLLHOUSE is the issue now. Blaming FOX again would be a mistake. Whedon produced a show with an obtuse premise, an unrelatable main character, and a horrible first handful of episodes. It gets better as it goes, but only those of us willing to wade through a mire with Whedon are still watching.

I just fear Whedon's listening too much to the praise of his fans, and not recognizing the mistakes he's made in how he presented FIREFLY and DOLLHOUSE to the uninitiated. Both shows seem to assume you're along for the long haul, and make no effort to appeal to people that aren't already fans of his work.

See, you say Firefly is a dead horse and then you repeat the part we completely disagree with. I think Dollhouse Episode 1 was an absolute mess that I and my wife and my friends only suffered through and kept watching because we were fans of his work already. It was an awful pilot and I agree with you in wanting Joss to realize that.

By contrast, I know for a fact that NONE of us (myself, my wife, my friends, my coworkers, my extended family) were fans of Whedon when we watched the real pilot of Firefly, and it hooked us like goddamn crack. Pulled us in like no pilot for any other show ever has, period. Loved the characters, loved the dialogue, loved the episode structure, loved everything.

I understand maybe it didn't appeal to you, but that doesn't make it a bad pilot. It absolutely was not. Dollhouse might die on its own lack of early merit, but Firefly died because Fox fucked it up.

Bandango
04-14-2009, 06:50 PM
In Farsight's defense the Firefly pilot was far too soapy and had way too much pillow talk in it. I think the overall tone of the pilot was very different from the rest of the show.

Kagger
04-14-2009, 08:00 PM
In Farsight's defense the Firefly pilot was far too soapy and had way too much pillow talk in it. I think the overall tone of the pilot was very different from the rest of the show.

Yes, the tone is quite different, but as far as understanding the character's and the concept of the story it does it's job.

I think he Whedon even decided to change the tone of Mal after Serenity.

Farsight
04-14-2009, 08:07 PM
See, you say Firefly is a dead horse and then you repeat the part we completely disagree with.

I wasn't referring to the pilot. Both shows are essentially impossible to market, because neither has a premise that Whedon himself could explain, let alone marketing people. FIREFLY failed not because its aired pilot was bad, but because hardly anyone even gave it a try. Similarly, DOLLHOUSE debuted to terrible ratings, meaning people didn't even try its pilot. Both were heavily advertised, but when you try to describe either show, you end up with a massive run-on sentence of partial ideas.

BUFFY was "teenage girl fights vampires". ANGEL was "Vampire with a soul helps people". FIREFLY was... ? DOLLHOUSE is... ?

Whedon's preaching to the choir, so we shouldn't be surprised when only the choir listens.

Ravenlock
04-14-2009, 08:13 PM
FIREFLY was "outlaws take jobs under the nose of the law in space". I actually think it was fairly easy to sell to people, because I had a tremendously easy time selling it to people who were not already "part of the choir", and I was not part of the choir when it was pitched to me.

I'll agree that Dollhouse was just "Joss Whedon's next crazy thing", but even that can work - what was "Lost" if not "J.J. Abrams' next crazy thing"? Difference being that Lost started out strong and is now one of the most popular shows on TV, while Dollhouse started out crappy and will probably die.

Spectre-7
04-14-2009, 08:13 PM
BUFFY was "teenage girl fights vampires". ANGEL was "Vampire with a soul helps people". FIREFLY was... ? DOLLHOUSE is... ?

Firefly was about western outlaws in space. Dollhouse is about brainwashed, programmable slaves. Fuck. That was hard.

Saladin
04-14-2009, 08:40 PM
Firefly was about western outlaws in space. Dollhouse is about brainwashed, programmable slaves. Fuck. That was hard.

Your summations are missing the part about what they do though, and that's the interesting bit. Buffy is "Teenage Vampire Hunter", so the "... hunts vampires" hook is pretty apparent, however Angel is "Vampire with a Soul" which isn't as apparent, which is why you need the "... helps people and atones for his past" tacked on.

Nothing about "brainwashed, programmable slaves" tells you what the show is actually about; are they investigating crimes like CSI? Helping people while trying to discover the mystery of their origin like John Doe? Busting out of their prison like Prison Break? Turns out their kinda doing all three and more, but how do you explain that to someone easily?

Dollhouse's hook is effectively "Brainwashed, programmable slaves do a bunch of random, unrelated stuff every week each of which contains a small element tying back to them eventually getting their memories back" which really does make it a lot harder to explain and hook people in - and someone watching the pilot in isolation isn't really going to pick up on that hook either.

Spectre-7
04-14-2009, 09:02 PM
Actually, it tells you precisely what the show is about. The random, unrelated stuff and apparent quest for the return of their memories are unimportant details as far as a hook is concerned. They're just ornamentation on the high-level concept.

Given the way you described Dollhouse, the previous hooks are also completely insufficient. Buffy would have to be something like, "Teenage girl fights vampires and other supernatural beasties while hanging out with mystically powered friends, keeping her grades up, falling in love, and occasionally puzzling over season spanning mysteries."

Angel doesn't fare any better... but that's fine. The hook isn't supposed to touch any of the complexities of the story. It's just a high-level description.

However, if you really need Dollhouse in subject-verb-object form...

Shadowy corporation whores out brainwashed, programmable slaves to the highest bidder. Wackiness ensues.

boratika
04-14-2009, 09:02 PM
I think he Whedon even decided to change the tone of Mal after Serenity.

If you listen to the commentary for The Train Job (I think) they talk about how they wanted Mal to be a character who just hates everything, but apparently Fox didn't want the main character to have no redeeming characteristic, hence the him having a good side at the end of The Train Job.

boratika
04-14-2009, 09:06 PM
Shadowy corporation whores out brainwashed, programmable slaves to the highest bidder. Wackiness ensues.

Well now I just have to watch it!

Spectre-7
04-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Well now I just have to watch it!

Truth is I won't even watch a show these days if wackiness fails to ensue.

Wilkz07
04-14-2009, 09:53 PM
too bad about dollhouse (if rumors are true). it looked like a cool show and i'll watch it when its finished the first season

muddi900
04-14-2009, 11:22 PM
Anyways, FIREFLY is a dead horse. Whedon's failure with DOLLHOUSE is the issue now. Blaming FOX again would be a mistake. Whedon produced a show with an obtuse premise, an unrelatable main character, and a horrible first handful of episodes. It gets better as it goes, but only those of us willing to wade through a mire with Whedon are still watching.

I just fear Whedon's listening too much to the praise of his fans, and not recognizing the mistakes he's made in how he presented FIREFLY and DOLLHOUSE to the uninitiated. Both shows seem to assume you're along for the long haul, and make no effort to appeal to people that aren't already fans of his work.

How many times does have to be stated; The reason the initial episodes sucked was Fox.

Widgetcraft
04-14-2009, 11:41 PM
You're all over-thinking this. It isn't a matter of "hooking" the average viewer with a concept. You just need the show to be entertaining, to be fun to watch; Dollhouse was boring, and often irritating. It was like your television developed a rash for an hour. The overall story and concept doesn't matter for the purposes of ratings, as people will stay for that stuff only if the show is entertaining on a moment-to-moment basis; Dollhouse wasn't.

MalReynolds
04-15-2009, 12:02 AM
id have to agree Dollhouse ... i didnt watch more then 10 mins of and episode before i just couldnt watch anymore ... bad show


Btw just for general knowledge Im a Whedon fan ... i watched Buffy, Angel and Firefly

Farsight
04-15-2009, 01:29 AM
FIREFLY was "outlaws take jobs under the nose of the law in space". I actually think it was fairly easy to sell to people, because I had a tremendously easy time selling it to people who were not already "part of the choir", and I was not part of the choir when it was pitched to me.

It's much easier to push a DVD at someone and say, "Watch this, you'll like it." than to actually hook someone with an ad.

"Western in space" is basically what you wrote, and that isn't a hook (for most people). It's a foreign concept.

I'll agree that Dollhouse was just "Joss Whedon's next crazy thing", but even that can work - what was "Lost" if not "J.J. Abrams' next crazy thing"?

When LOST debuted, JJ Abrams had almost no name recognition. FELICITY and ALIAS were his resume, and neither were huge hits. LOST drew an audience far larger than anything Abrams had ever made. And LOST was sold with an easy hook: "Plane crash survivors struggle to survive on a mysterious island". LOST also had one of the best pilots ever produced, with an opening scene (the crash) that immediately grabs the viewers' attention - and could be used to advertise the show.

Firefly was about western outlaws in space. Dollhouse is about brainwashed, programmable slaves. Fuck. That was hard.

And why would anyone want to watch either of those? A show about 'brainwashed, programmable slaves' sounds absolutely awful.

Shadowy corporation whores out brainwashed, programmable slaves to the highest bidder. Wackiness ensues.

Again, who would voluntarily watch that? It doesn't even say who the protagonist is - evil corporate asses? Lobotomized slaves? Evil slave-owners? Which of those would anyone want to follow weekly? I think you're proving that a hook actually IS hard. :)

Dollhouse's hook is effectively "Brainwashed, programmable slaves do a bunch of random, unrelated stuff every week each of which contains a small element tying back to them eventually getting their memories back" which really does make it a lot harder to explain and hook people in - and someone watching the pilot in isolation isn't really going to pick up on that hook either.

Exactly. Most of us enjoy deep, complex shows, but you can't just vomit a mass of characters and ideas on the screen and say, "voila!".

How many times does have to be stated; The reason the initial episodes sucked was Fox.

FOX didn't write them. FOX asked Whedon to produce a pilot. His original pilot was poor enough that it won't be airing at all. His second attempt was what we saw - and it was terrible. FOX originally ordered scripts from Whedon w/o a pilot, which is a big sign of faith. Then they planned to air the show in the fall (probably in the spot FRINGE ended up with), but they didn't like what they saw, so they delayed it to give Whedon more time to right the ship. Then they still didn't like what they saw, so they put the show on Friday, where it wouldn't need as big of numbers to succeed. Then they advertised the heck out of it (although the concept was so vague that they were forced to sell it as "the Eliza Dushku is pretty Show")... and it still failed. If Whedon listens to fans telling him its FOX's fault again, he's just going to set himself up to repeat his mistakes the next time around...

You're all over-thinking this. It isn't a matter of "hooking" the average viewer with a concept. You just need the show to be entertaining, to be fun to watch

DOLLHOUSE (and FIREFLY, for that matter) premiered poorly, meaning not enough people even tried it.

Dollhouse was boring, and often irritating.

While I liked it a lot more than you :) , what you're describing is the reason its ratings have fallen consistently since the premiere. Most people didn't even try it, and too many of those that did were turned off by it.

DOLLHOUSE gets a lot better as it goes, but it's still terribly flawed, and you just don't get 1/2 a season to figure out how to make your show good any more...

Deadend
04-15-2009, 01:47 AM
Fox told Whedon to make a script.. they also told him what they wanted in said script, how they want things to be He had to write around their demands. Fox wanted a formula show for the first few episodes.

Farsight, did you see 6,7,8,9? They are some fantastic fucking TV. Full of great twists on things and very much lacking in structure the way early Dollhouse episodes, or Buffy, or Firefly or even Angel. I got no clue what is going to happen in episode 10. But character relations have changed massively so far, Echo has become a character unto herself with what may be her own plan.

I almost think a modified version of episode 8 would have been a better pilot episode. Show who these people were in a way, establish that the company is manipulative.. Yeah, episode 8 with a few changes to the intro part would have made a great pilot and established a vested interest in the characters.

Spectre-7
04-15-2009, 02:04 AM
Whoops. Wrong button.

Move along. Nothing to see here.

Farsight
04-15-2009, 04:50 AM
Fox told Whedon to make a script.. they also told him what they wanted in said script, how they want things to be He had to write around their demands.

Not the first time. Their instructions came after Whedon filmed a first pilot that reviewers who are fans of his work called even worse than what aired.

Fox wanted a formula show for the first few episodes.

Yeah, but FOX didn't want a BAD formula show for the first few episodes! :)

Farsight, did you see 6,7,8,9? They are some fantastic fucking TV.

They're better, but still pretty flawed. The main character is still mostly a cipher, and what we do know of her true personality is pretty lame. The Dollhouse missions are nearly all pointless and dull. Our time is split between way too many characters and stories to allow any real depth. The show is definitely far more entertaining now, but it seems flawed at the concept level.

The show either needed to not focus on Echo, or make her have a true personality from the start. There needed to be a strong focus on just core characters and storylines, with others left for later eps. Mainly, the show just needed another 3-6 months of development before filming.

I almost think a modified version of episode 8 would have been a better pilot episode.

I've thought that about at least 4 of the aired episodes. :) It's what makes me think Whedon should just hire someone to write his next pilot... he doesn't even know when he already has a pilot episode! :)

Generation ABXY
04-15-2009, 12:03 PM
"Western in space" is basically what you wrote, and that isn't a hook (for most people). It's a foreign concept.

Yeah, I suppose it would be pretty easy to hook me with that line, but I was already a huge fan of Cowboy Bebop.

SilentScreams
04-15-2009, 12:11 PM
I don't know. I think "western in space" would grab a lot of people if it was pushed properly (which Firefly was not).

Then again, I'm the guy who was also hooked by "Little Red Riding Hood's Zombie BBQ" and "Lesbian Vampire Hunters", so make of that what you will. :)

rein
04-15-2009, 12:23 PM
They're better, but still pretty flawed. The main character is still mostly a cipher, and what we do know of her true personality is pretty lame. The Dollhouse missions are nearly all pointless and dull. Our time is split between way too many characters and stories to allow any real depth. The show is definitely far more entertaining now, but it seems flawed at the concept level.

I don't think the concept is that bad, just the implementation. I completely agree with everything else that you said. I found Alias to be a much better show this far into the first season and I wasn't the biggest fan of that series.

BabyJesus
04-15-2009, 01:57 PM
I don't care about Dollhouse, good show or not.. Bu them cutting TSCC pisses me off. I am tired of Fox's half assed support of Sci-Fi shows.. Dark Angel, Firefly and now TSCC. Ugh give me a break.

inmostlight
04-15-2009, 05:48 PM
So clearly Joss needs a better, concise premise for his next show that's guaranteed to be a tv hit. Taking a page from the networks and current book phenoms, I suggest: Law & Order & Zombies.

Codicier
04-15-2009, 07:12 PM
I think Fox cancelling/meddling with sci-fi is a tricky business plan.

Get a few people hooked on a new sci-fi show and then cancel it. Wait for the well-known geek obsession to keep these people supporting and spreading their cult hit during its cancellation period while simultaneously earning money off multiple releases of the same cancelled stuff on DVD, widescreen DVD , Blu-ray etc... (look at how many releases of Serenity and Firefly there were). Not to mention posters or anything else remotely related to the show.

Then, drag the show back from the grave to better ratings after the virus spread by these enthusiastic carriers has penetrated our geek culture.

Or maybe that's just what I tell myself to hold onto the tiniest sliver of hope that Firefly will ever come back on the air. :p ... :(

Farsight
04-15-2009, 07:16 PM
I suggest: Law & Order & Zombies.

I'd check out the pilot, at least. :)

I don't care about Dollhouse, good show or not.. Bu them cutting TSCC pisses me off. I am tired of Fox's half assed support of Sci-Fi shows.. Dark Angel, Firefly and now TSCC. Ugh give me a break.

To be fair, TSCC just doesn't have the ratings - if FOX renews it, it'd be because they like it, not because it's the best business move. The strike killed the terminator. It premiered to something like -triple- DOLLHOUSE's numbers, but the momentum-killing break and getting paired with the anchor-like PRISON BREAK (no show could counter its crappiness!) instead of 24 were just too much to overcome.

Also, FOX is going to renew FRINGE, so they don't hate sci-fi, they just hate low-rated shows. :) It sucks that FOX has cancelled a lot of good or potentially good shows, but they also deserve credit for putting them on the air in the first place. I doubt any of the other major networks would have aired TSCC or FIREFLY at all.

Spockrocket
04-15-2009, 08:53 PM
I still think Whedon should have gone to Sci-fi (I refuse to call them SyFy) with most of his shows. The audience there would have been much more receptive.

Quick question and I don't mean to thread-jack, but who owns the rights to air Firefly right now? It'd be cool if we could see it come back somewhere as re-runs, and see if it fares any better when the episodes are played in the right order.

Stoke
04-15-2009, 09:01 PM
I still think Whedon should have gone to Sci-fi (I refuse to call them SyFy) with most of his shows. The audience there would have been much more receptive.

Quick question and I don't mean to thread-jack, but who owns the rights to air Firefly right now? It'd be cool if we could see it come back somewhere as re-runs, and see if it fares any better when the episodes are played in the right order.

Right now I'm not sure, but I know I watched Firefly for the first time on SciFi a few years ago. All in order.

muddi900
04-15-2009, 10:27 PM
I

FOX didn't write them. FOX asked Whedon to produce a pilot. His original pilot was poor enough that it won't be airing at all. His second attempt was what we saw - and it was terrible. FOX originally ordered scripts from Whedon w/o a pilot, which is a big sign of faith. Then they planned to air the show in the fall (probably in the spot FRINGE ended up with), but they didn't like what they saw, so they delayed it to give Whedon more time to right the ship. Then they still didn't like what they saw, so they put the show on Friday, where it wouldn't need as big of numbers to succeed. Then they advertised the heck out of it (although the concept was so vague that they were forced to sell it as "the Eliza Dushku is pretty Show")... and it still failed. If Whedon listens to fans telling him its FOX's fault again, he's just going to set himself up to repeat his mistakes the next time around...


There have been multitude of conceptual changes made at the "request" of the network. A lot of tsuff was deliberately left out of the initial episodes because of fox. It was a completely different show than it was supposed to be, because of Fox. The fans do not need to tell him, he's going around doing that already, kinda. In fact that's where I got the idea, from one of his interviews. I understand Fox' reasoning with interference, last time they gave him a free hand, the show was a huge flop. But that does not mean Dollhouse initial suckage shouldn't be attributed to them.

Virtual Pariah
04-16-2009, 01:51 PM
Well, you really can't blame this one on Fox. Dollhouse was shit, at least in the beginning. I've heard it picks up in later episodes but if the show can't at least start well then it's killing itself.


I can't blame them completely, but Fridays are such a dead zone for a show that it's almost guaranteed to tank.
That said, it's not one of the strongest shows out there. But, I have a Eliza D. thing going on and would watch her recite the dictionary.

Can't say much for Wheedon's writing this time, but he does know how to cast attractive women.

This show really seemed like "The Prisoner met the Pretender". Has/Had potential, but needed tooling to come together.

rein
04-16-2009, 03:49 PM
There have been multitude of conceptual changes made at the "request" of the network. A lot of tsuff was deliberately left out of the initial episodes because of fox. It was a completely different show than it was supposed to be, because of Fox. The fans do not need to tell him, he's going around doing that already, kinda. In fact that's where I got the idea, from one of his interviews. I understand Fox' reasoning with interference, last time they gave him a free hand, the show was a huge flop. But that does not mean Dollhouse initial suckage shouldn't be attributed to them.

I don't know. I remember reading something on Whedons blog where he confessed his original pilot was crap because he was spending a lot of time directing and not writing... ...or something like that. He as much as admitted it was a mess and FOX was right to ask for it to be redone. I don't know why all of a sudden ALL the finger pointing goes back to FOX. I think both parties had a hand in the way things turned out. The situation surrounding Dollhouse is no shock to anyone who followed the previews and news for it. Unfortunately the show was doomed from the start.

Farsight
04-16-2009, 03:51 PM
I can't blame them completely, but Fridays are such a dead zone for a show that it's almost guaranteed to tank.

FOX didn't want to air it on Fridays though. It was likely going to get FRINGE's tuesday slot (or TERMINATOR's monday slot), but after FOX saw how poorly the show was developing, they delayed it. I'm pretty sure there was even an ad campaign last summer for FRINGE and DOLLHOUSE, but FOX knew it would fail if they pushed it out in the fall. Then they looked at it for January, where they had two options: Mondays after 24, or Fridays. Again, they looked at the show and felt it was poor enough that it would drag down 24, so off to Fridays it went. Even with lowered expectations, DOLLHOUSE failed there.

I can't find any faulty logic in what FOX did on this one...

But, I have a Eliza D. thing going on and would watch her recite the dictionary.

She's gorgeous, but I'm thinking her best role is as a supporting actress. She's pretty one-note. Trying to build a show around her range was Whedon's first mistake. He thought he had Jennifer Garner, when he actually had Jennifer Love Hewitt. :)

Can't say much for Wheedon's writing this time, but he does know how to cast attractive women.

No argument there. It's amazing how easily some people can find gorgeous women with talent (even Eliza was fine on BUFFY/ANGEL) while other shows cast people without any charisma or ability to emote. LOST and FARSCAPE come to mind as two of my favorites that just assault you with beautiful women that can really act.

This show really seemed like "The Prisoner met the Pretender". Has/Had potential, but needed tooling to come together.

As it's been improving, it has struck me how much of an ALIAS clone it has become. It just shows how much better ALIAS was at the conceptual level.

pomeroy
04-16-2009, 08:32 PM
She's gorgeous, but I'm thinking her best role is as a supporting actress. She's pretty one-note. Trying to build a show around her range was Whedon's first mistake. He thought he had Jennifer Garner, when he actually had Jennifer Love Hewitt. :)


Again, Whedon didn't have the deal with FOX. Dushku did. And she brought Whedon on board.

muddi900
04-17-2009, 12:52 AM
FOX didn't want to air it on Fridays though. It was likely going to get FRINGE's tuesday slot (or TERMINATOR's monday slot), but after FOX saw how poorly the show was developing, they delayed it. I'm pretty sure there was even an ad campaign last summer for FRINGE and DOLLHOUSE, but FOX knew it would fail if they pushed it out in the fall. Then they looked at it for January, where they had two options: Mondays after 24, or Fridays. Again, they looked at the show and felt it was poor enough that it would drag down 24, so off to Fridays it went. Even with lowered expectations, DOLLHOUSE failed there.


Here you go: (http://http://io9.com/5207864/joss-whedon-accepts-award-drops-dollhouse-hints-names-winner-of-buffyriver-fight)
Whedon explained that Dollhouse is not a feminist show, as to make it explicitly adhere to any set system of belief would make it didactic instead of dramatic. When an audience member asked whether he saw it as troublesome that all the actives were unfailingly young and gorgeous, he acknowledged this to an extent, mentioning that early drafts of the show had involved actives of all shapes and sizes to reflect the fact that people's fantasies don't always adhere to Hollywood's conception of attractiveness, and the beautifying of the Dollhouse was one of the realities of dealing with Fox. There had been an entire early subplot about an active named Tango who was an older woman, but sadly all of that had to go when the show's direction changed.

What I said has nothing to do with time slots. My point was that initial episodes were lame because they were made so at the request of the network.

Deadend
04-17-2009, 01:22 AM
What? they are renewing Fringe? That show pisses me off. That every technology that is advanced from totally unrelated fields are all interrelated! And that the crazy old guy is a genius at all of them and invented them all about 20 years ago now. It gets on my plausibility nerves. I can accept that whole mental conrstructs of people can be implanted via a chair, but asking me to suck down 'Fringe' at least the idea of pisses me off. It's also another JJ Abrams paced show that tries to fill your head up with questions then never gets around to answers... ugh.

muddi900
04-17-2009, 01:33 AM
Fringe was renewed a day after the second episode aired. The fact is, that show has been way worse than Dollhouse at points. It had it's moments of brilliance, but it has been mostly mediocre.

But I will still hold on to my original claim; It's as close to Planetary as we can get on American TV.

Farsight
04-17-2009, 02:38 AM
Again, Whedon didn't have the deal with FOX. Dushku did. And she brought Whedon on board.

I know that. But Dushku's deal was for "a show", Whedon's the one who decided that it should be "a showcase for my muse's amazing acting range." He didn't do himself, her, or us any favors by putting her in roles she just can't handle.

What I said has nothing to do with time slots.

What you quoted wasn't in response to you. :)

Fringe was renewed a day after the second episode aired. The fact is, that show has been way worse than Dollhouse at points.

It had a significantly better pilot though, which is what got it the prime timeslot that helped get it renewed.

It's also another JJ Abrams paced show that tries to fill your head up with questions then never gets around to answers...

Someone hasn't paid close enough attention to LOST. :)

Ravenlock
04-17-2009, 02:03 PM
Some of the people who aren't paying attention to Lost are ignoring it specifically because they paid attention to Alias. Alias was a fascinating concept, but also a horrible mess of a show that ended in huge disappointment.

Virtual Pariah
04-17-2009, 06:27 PM
He thought he had Jennifer Garner, when he actually had Jennifer Love Hewitt. :)


Not quite. They actually built a show around JLH. Or at least her chest.
That Ghost Whisperer is terrible, but does well for itself.

I think Eliza has potential, but, this is not a great vehicle for her. If Joss wrote this with her in mind, then he never knew the actress. You could throw any female with a good bod in her role. It's generic.

Farsight
04-17-2009, 06:29 PM
Some of the people who aren't paying attention to Lost are ignoring it specifically because they paid attention to Alias.

That's goofy reasoning. The two shows aren't run by the same people, and have very few people in common. I'm pretty sure there are more people who worked on ANGEL working on LOST.

Alias was a fascinating concept, but also a horrible mess of a show that ended in huge disappointment.

I actually enjoyed the last season quite a bit, and thought it did an admirable job of cleaning up the mess seasons 3 and 4 made of things. ALIAS was at its best in seasons 1 & 2, but 5 provided a strong finale. I think I prefer that outcome to how a show like BUFFY limped across the finish line.

Regardless, people who avoid LOST because of residual emotions over ALIAS, or because they think LOST is making things up as they go, aren't living in reality. It's their prerogative, but they're missing some of the best entertainment in any form available right now.

boratika
04-17-2009, 11:48 PM
It had a significantly better pilot though, which is what got it the prime timeslot that helped get it renewed.

Two hour timeslot. Coincidence?...

pomeroy
04-18-2009, 04:03 AM
Two hour timeslot. Coincidence?...

Nah. Dollhouse just sucks all the time, Fringe only occasionally.

Widgetcraft
04-20-2009, 05:59 PM
DOLLHOUSE (and FIREFLY, for that matter) premiered poorly, meaning not enough people even tried it.

Dude, I was a big fan of Buffy/Angel, and was looking forward to Firefly... I missed the premiere, because I could never find out when the fuck it was coming on. The commercial said that it was going to be on Friday night... but never gave a time. I could have probably looked it up, but that just pissed me off so much I ended up saying screw it, and decided to wait for the DVD, as it was pretty obvious that Fox was just going to shuffle it around until it was dead.

That's goofy reasoning. The two shows aren't run by the same people, and have very few people in common. I'm pretty sure there are more people who worked on ANGEL working on LOST.



I actually enjoyed the last season quite a bit, and thought it did an admirable job of cleaning up the mess seasons 3 and 4 made of things. ALIAS was at its best in seasons 1 & 2, but 5 provided a strong finale. I think I prefer that outcome to how a show like BUFFY limped across the finish line.

Regardless, people who avoid LOST because of residual emotions over ALIAS, or because they think LOST is making things up as they go, aren't living in reality. It's their prerogative, but they're missing some of the best entertainment in any form available right now.

Most people who stopped watching Lost stopped because the third season was unwatchable garbage. If I didn't catch the fourth season being run on Scifi, I would have never tuned in again to catch the fifth season. I'm glad I did though, because the show is better than ever.

johnperkins21
04-20-2009, 06:19 PM
Nah. Dollhouse just sucks all the time, Fringe only occasionally.

This doesn't make any sense to me, because Fringe is an absolutely horrible show, with zero redeeming qualities to it. At least Dollhouse is fun.

That's the deal with taste though. Everyone likes different things for different reasons.

muddi900
04-20-2009, 10:48 PM
Most people who stopped watching Lost stopped because the third season was unwatchable garbage. If I didn't catch the fourth season being run on Scifi, I would have never tuned in again to catch the fifth season. I'm glad I did though, because the show is better than ever.

I dropped of around the middle of the 2nd, which was probably one of the most boring, mind numbing shit ever. The friend forced me to watch it and I sat through it and then tried the 3rd season, which was way better.

Philonious
04-20-2009, 11:19 PM
So is it even canceled? Seems like evryone picked up on the Felicia Day story despite Tim Minnear discounting it as 'proof' of the show being canceled.

Farsight
04-20-2009, 11:43 PM
FOX reveals its fall lineup next month. Both DOLLHOUSE and TERMINATOR are expected to be cancelled at that time. Expect FOX to replace them with another weak HOUSE clone and a reality show about people that should have been destroyed by natural selection, because that's what appeals to the mouth-breathers that watch live TV with Nielsen boxes attached.

Widgetcraft
04-21-2009, 04:35 AM
I dropped of around the middle of the 2nd, which was probably one of the most boring, mind numbing shit ever. The friend forced me to watch it and I sat through it and then tried the 3rd season, which was way better.

What did you like about the third season: Sawyer sitting around in a cage, or Jack sitting around in a cement room? Maybe the hours of pseudo-exposition on The Others? I like watching Ben be a dick, but that can't really carry the show for an entire season.

muddi900
04-21-2009, 05:35 AM
What did you like about the third season: Sawyer sitting around in a cage, or Jack sitting around in a cement room? Maybe the hours of pseudo-exposition on The Others? I like watching Ben be a dick, but that can't really carry the show for an entire season.

Well, I didn't watch them with a week's difference between them, so that was plus. It got way better after the initial few episodes. Yes, Ben being a dick can carry the show for a whole season. In fact, it carried the show for 2 seasons. That Ben flash-forward episode in the 4th season was badass.

I am currently not watching it, so I can watch all episodes together.

Kagger
04-21-2009, 06:49 AM
FOX reveals its fall lineup next month. Both DOLLHOUSE and TERMINATOR are expected to be cancelled at that time. Expect FOX to replace them with another weak HOUSE clone and a reality show about people that should have been destroyed by natural selection, because that's what appeals to the mouth-breathers that watch live TV with Nielsen boxes attached.

I did Nielsen TV diaries a couple of weeks ago. I had 2 friends over to watch Dollhouse that week live. Sadly I had to tape Kings, but mentioned it in the paragraph I wrote.

I also watched a ton of Futurama reruns that week.

AbeLincoln
04-21-2009, 07:40 PM
Ugh, yeah I didn't like fringe and gave up after the first couple eps, kind of surprised it's still running and people are watching.

Dollhouse, was indeed lame and slow at the beginning too many episodes of "this what things are like before the real story starts" But lately things have actually been happening and it's been good.

I'm most bummed about TSCC though, I just started watching it on a whim last month, got all the episodes from the start and I really really like it. If I had to throw Dollhouse under a bus to keep TSCC on the air I would. I hope it can find a home on another network.

muddi900
04-22-2009, 01:10 AM
I'm most bummed about TSCC though, I just started watching it on a whim last month, got all the episodes from the start and I really really like it. If I had to throw Dollhouse under a bus to keep TSCC on the air I would. I hope it can find a home on another network.

The whedonite in me has to fight the urge to wish the same.