4e - phb2

[Smoof]

Anyone picked this up and spent any time with it? I preordered it a while ago and got it last week, though I haven't really spent any time sitting down to read it. I guess I haven't been THAT interested because I don't want to start a new character yet, but I do need to select a background.

So, is it just me or do the new classes seem really unbalanced? In my second D&D group (first group switched over to playing Everquest RPG. Which is fantastic), I've been running a Cleric and my two other party members are sporting a Rogue and a Warforged Paladin (awesome). But, I was looking through the classes a bit and I noticed one of the new divine classes seems to be better than my Cleric in almost everyway. It looks like it heals better and does better damage (my is a Dwarf and thus sports a Greataxe) than my Cleric, except for the fact that it can only wear cloth (that's what I'm thinking of, right?). It lacks some of the durability of my Cleric, but it makes up for it in so many other ways, especially healing, of which the Cleric feels a bit underpowered in (seems like we ought to be able to heal more than twice per encounter).

Any opinions on it?

[Hotcod]

I've only skip over a... copy... of it won't sit down and read it until my friends copy turns up and i borrow it. We aren't playing at the moment so i can't really make any comments on balance but over all i'm a little underwhelmed by it all. Some of the new races are rather cool and there new take on the sorcerer is interesting. I was wondering what they where going to do with them given that the new magic system made them redundant.

But ya i'd say play a few encounter with your group with the new class and see how it pans out... it may be that your just not seeing the downside to the class

[Trogdor]

I'm pretty pleased with the whole thing, overall. The only parts I haven't really examined closely are the paragon/epic tier powers for each class, but looking at the first 10 levels and the class features tells me that the Avenger and Invoker are both crap at healing, as they should be.

The Cleric does have trouble sometimes healing multiple times in an encounter at low levels, but they make up for it with powerful heals, especially the dailies like Beacon of Hope. STR builds tend to have a lot of encounter power heals, although they aren't going to be as strong or reliable. Either way you end up with a good number of healing powers before you even reach paragon. Also, a lot of the buffs and debuffs that the Cleric gets can help prevent the need for healing in the first place.

If you're dying for more encounter heals you could always pick up a channel divinity feat. I know at least two or three involve healing or regeneration. Another one turns an enemy crit into a regular hit, which is kind of like healing.

Anyway, it's hard for me to choose what I like most out of all of the new stuff, but one thing that caught my eye was a new ritual: Pyrotechnics. I'm going to encourage our wizard to pick that up and start doing Gandalf impressions (http://img141.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gandalffireworks.jpg).

[Shrinn]

I DM'd for my friends and one played a Shaman support. His constant temporary hit points made life a ton easier, but he couldn't do much in terms of buffing or damage. His spirit companion was an amazing damage soak at level 1-2 as well.

I'm in the process of making an Avenger. Seems like quite a bit of fun to Roleplay.

[TrackZero]

Pathfinder. Go, now.

[Hotcod]

Avenger seems the most interesting class to me, i'm going to be sure to read up on it some more... an elf or eladrin avenger of the raven queen seems like it could be a really fun combo to play

[Shrinn]

Indeed. I chose an Avenger of Bahamut so that there can be interesting situations when my idea of the will of my God does not coincide with the "law" of the land. Plus I feel like playing the ultimate goody-goody.

[Nameless]

I can't believe that they've already released a PHB2. Does it have the Bard in it?

[Hotcod]

I like my guys to have huge flaws... my last game i was a drunken cleric of the sliver flame (eberon) who did and saw things during the war that left him a mess who goes in to adventuring to get away from the church and maybe to do some good to make up for the things he really didn't care if he died which lead to some interesting battles... it's the old story of losing faith for which you, when younger, where willing to do anything. The hope was that over time he'd start to care about the group and my DM had plans to bring me back towards the church... i had hoped to take over it or some such

but ya it's like i'd planed a warlord who was an illigetment son of a duke who grows up to be trusted but is framed for the death of his farther and half brother and has to go on the run with the dukes new wife and her baby... that a really long story

but there's lot of room for doing fun back story like that with an avenger, disconnected and discontented with the world just going from place to place doing the work of his god... he could walk in to a orcus cult, slay every one of them and wonder out past cages of half starving people with out caring and so on but with a back story of being taken from his faimly as a boy.... the temple saw his talent... and over time that gets played on and he starts to care and question the nature of his work when he finds out say one of faimly was in the cages he walked past... either it makes him a more "caring" person or drives him deeper in to his self.

Gah i better stop before i start writing a 5 page story

[Hotcod]

I can't believe that they've already released a PHB2. Does it have the Bard in it?

the new model is set up to be pick and play. You pick the books you want and play with them, it's also a way to keep bringing out books with out having to do massive revamps. the PHB1 was always meant to just be the basics...

and yes the bard is in it... not really read about it but it seems a lot less rubbishy hehe

[Shrinn]

I like my guys to have huge flaws...

Yea. I have my guy planned to be so set in his ways following Bahamut that he'll definitely skirt the edge of his lawful good alignment by only following those commands, much to the detriment of many townheads and local governments I'm sure. His sect of religion will also teach a much... bloodier side to "justice", leading to confrontations with most other religious places worshiping the same dragon and a little bit of psychosis in my character's head.

[Lint of Death]

I think the phb2 seems quite cool, though I haven't done anything with it. I'm personally quite interested in the Invoker, particularly for its colorful background. Not only does the Invoker derive power directly from a god unlike the other divine classes, but Invokers hold all deities in high regard and respect - even if the god they serve is at odds with the other! They see all gods as ultimately on the same side in the three-way power struggle against the Primordials and nature itself.

[Smoof]

Man, some of you guys really do some stories. I haven't even thought-up a backstory for my Cleric yet and he's level 6. I'm no good at coming up with backstories ro anything. The most I've created so far is his clan name, which is Gruumbane; coming from a clan who (obviously) seeks to destroy followers of Gruumsh or whatever...Orcs, Goblins, etc. But I haven't exactly figured out why he's out in the world yet.

[Superman's Dead]

Lint of Death is the King of Backstories, and then doodling the characters thereof.

The addition of powers and their importance (and the ability to switch them out at levels) makes going through these books and trying to figure out what build you want kind of interesting...and kind of a chore.

[Nameless]

the new model is set up to be pick and play. You pick the books you want and play with them, it's also a way to keep bringing out books with out having to do massive revamps. the PHB1 was always meant to just be the basics...

and yes the bard is in it... not really read about it but it seems a lot less rubbishy hehe

Interesting premise, but won't the books be additive eventually? I mean, wouldn't you expect there to be a book that comes out that provides new powers for a whole slew of classes, including PHB and PHB2 classes? I would feel like I need to get all the books if they're referring to one another.

Of course, this is why I can't buy from WotC anymore: as much as I love their products, I'm a collector and need to get them all, which is way too expensive.

I've had the same problem with Pathfinder. As much as I love their stuff (all of the best RPG products of '08 came from them, IMO), there's just too much of it coming out these days.

Anyway, this has been really off-topic so far.

The Invoker sounds really cool, I may check this book out and mine it for ideas. Is there a Play-by-Email or a Play-by-Post on these boards?

[Spockrocket]

I DM'd for my friends and one played a Shaman support. His constant temporary hit points made life a ton easier, but he couldn't do much in terms of buffing or damage. His spirit companion was an amazing damage soak at level 1-2 as well.

I'm in the process of making an Avenger. Seems like quite a bit of fun to Roleplay.

I played a Dwarven Fighter in Shrinn's adventure. I know it's not from phb2 exactly but I can certainly testify towards the Shaman's awesomeness. I would've died several times over if not for his stream of heals and temp hit points.

It was a good night though, despite my utter inability to hit anything up until the last couple of encounters.

Throwing hammer on a rope ftw.

[nnanji]

I got to play a a warforged barbarian this past game-day. It was a lot of fun. AS a striker he dealt damage comparable to a ranger, a little less than a rogue, but with a lot more added effects (ie: knocking targets prone.) The added battlefield control came at a price of course: he leaked HP like a sieve. His damage potential really shines if you're prepared to blow multiple dailies to power his Rage Strike. So you either partially suck through multiple fights until you meet the Big Bad, or you take an extended rest after every other fight, especially at low levels. But I do love "going Nova" with my characters, so I had fun.

As to the OP, I also felt that the classes felt overpowered until i sat down and compared them with the original PHB classes. The power level, I feel, is very compatible. Of course the new classes are better at some things, but not at everything, and they usually suck at something that the older classes do better. Nothing heals as well as a cleric. I finally decided that the reason teh new classes felt more powerful was due to their phenomenal flavor. The original PHB was full of martial classes that just felt dull in comparison. Any poor bastard can swing a sword, no matter how cool the flavor text is. But can you summon an Angel of Pain? I didn't think so.

[Shrinn]

I played a Dwarven Fighter in Shrinn's adventure. I know it's not from phb2 exactly but I can certainly testify towards the Shaman's awesomeness. I would've died several times over if not for his stream of heals and temp hit points.

It was a good night though, despite my utter inability to hit anything up until the last couple of encounters.

Throwing hammer on a rope ftw.

The Shaman actually helped you guys to such a point that a few of the encounters I gave the three of you were balanced for five according to Keep over the Shadowfell.

Also, throwing hammer on a rope was a genius way to hit those rats in a pit.

The flavor text for an invoker makes me question why they're equal to a rogue or a ranger in power. They are a very interesting backstory though.

[Lint of Death]

The flavor text for an invoker makes me question why they're equal to a rogue or a ranger in power. They are a very interesting backstory though.
Are they? I concede I haven't tried gaging that sort of thing, but I do know that the Invoker is a Controller, while the Rogue and Ranger are strikers. Maybe it makes sense if one considers that the Wizard is also a controller?

Lint of Death is the King of Backstories, and then doodling the characters thereof.
Aw, shucks, I think that's a bit too much. I can't seem to do an underground origin without the character leaving by being pulled out by a cave river! :p

[Lint of Death]

Interesting premise, but won't the books be additive eventually? I mean, wouldn't you expect there to be a book that comes out that provides new powers for a whole slew of classes, including PHB and PHB2 classes? I would feel like I need to get all the books if they're referring to one another.

The Invoker sounds really cool, I may check this book out and mine it for ideas. Is there a Play-by-Email or a Play-by-Post on these boards?

This is my understanding: sure, a book like Martial Power mostly exists to bolster classes that were introduced in another book, the Player's Handbook. However, you really can make a character (a whole slew of characters, really) just from the stuff introduced in Martial Power. You still need the starting stats of the classes, combat rules and suchlike from the PHB, but in terms of character creation Martial Power can function as either an addition or a stand-alone.

As for play-by-post, a number of us use http://www.dndonlinegames.com/ which has a lot of great features for online games, like dice rolling, text that's only visible to designated users, and even making whole threads invisible to all but designated users.

[Shrinn]

Are they? I concede I haven't tried gaging that sort of thing, but I do know that the Invoker is a Controller, while the Rogue and Ranger are strikers. Maybe it makes sense if one considers that the Wizard is also a controller?

Well I didn't mean to randomly pick two strikers. I just meant "This guy that channels PURE GOD ENERGY is equal to this guy who swings a hammer or prays to his god.

[Hotcod]

because its a game? :P

[Clark]

No monk.

Bah.

[TheKeck]

As for play-by-post, a number of us use http://www.dndonlinegames.com/ which has a lot of great features for online games, like dice rolling, text that's only visible to designated users, and even making whole threads invisible to all but designated users.
Let's just say I'd have a LOT more posts here on CoG if it weren't for dndog. ;)

[nnanji]

Let's just say I'd have a LOT more posts here on CoG if it weren't for dndog. ;)

You really took to that, huh? I took Aarion Quick into my RL games a couple of weeks ago and he definitely took the other players by surprise. The leven wizard would never work in a real game though, it took me forever to come up with his dialogue.

[Shieldmaiden]

I've looked over the PHB2 and there's some stuff that interests me. I've got an idea simmering for a Conan-esque game and wanted to limit them to martial characters. I'm thinking about allowing primal classes as well.

I'm waiting for a friend to start his campaign at the moment. I want to use my storm genasi bravura warlord pirate captain!

My RPG withdrawal is baaaad. :(

[Virtual Machine]

Man, some of you guys really do some stories. I haven't even thought-up a backstory for my Cleric yet and he's level 6. I'm no good at coming up with backstories ro anything. The most I've created so far is his clan name, which is Gruumbane; coming from a clan who (obviously) seeks to destroy followers of Gruumsh or whatever...Orcs, Goblins, etc. But I haven't exactly figured out why he's out in the world yet.

I typically ask my players what kind of a character they would like to play, and some basic points as to why their character would behave in that fashion. Not full fledged stories, but concepts. Then, at our first "game" session, i'll give each player their full story in turn,adding hooks and such that i devise based on how they want to run their character. It tends to bring an added dimension to the characters, and gives the players a little more meat to gnaw on. It also makes it a bit easier to set up a narrative heavy campaign and to intertwine the characters.

A player comes to me and says, "I want to play a devout cleric who's loyal to his chosen pantheon to a fault". I mull it over, then i'll give him a back story:

You were raised from infancy as a servant of the church. You have no knowledge of your parents, and poured your youth into your training. Upon reaching adolescence, a strange man came to the temple, and asked to meet with you, tears welling up in his eyes. It turns out this man was your father. You had been lost to him, your brother and mother had been attacked as a means to get to him. The Brother fled, the mother died, you were lost. Now here he stands, alongside your brother (Another player character), now a promising young soldier in the town watch from a neighboring community. The other faithful suggest you take your leave of the cloistered life, and carry your faith beyond the friendly boarders. For a short time, you discover the joy of family, and your studies lapse. Upon a particularly dark day, on the road between 'town A' and 'Town B', you are set upon by what at first appears to be common highwaymen. Your father's name is dropped by one of the bandits, and his demeanor changes, grows more vicious. Your father is no simple woodsman, powerful magic flows through his bones, and he begins to attack his foes with energies you've never seen. The numbers are too great, and he turns to you and your brother, and the world fades. You both awaken in an Inn, your father is nowhere to be found. You blame yourself for this misfortune, your god would have watched out for you had not your devotion waned. It's a mistake you'll never make again. Your brother has vengeance on his mind.

With that i've given the player some guidelines as to how to role-play his character, i've given him a history, a hometown, memories to latch onto, and i've planted a few seeds for possible sessions. I've also tied him to at least one of the other PC's, which goes a long way toward keeping your players together. Just how i like to do it.

[TheKeck]

You really took to that, huh? I took Aarion Quick into my RL games a couple of weeks ago and he definitely took the other players by surprise. The leven wizard would never work in a real game though, it took me forever to come up with his dialogue.
Yes, I suppose I really did. :)

I prefer unlevened wizards, personally. :p

[Lint of Death]

With that i've given the player some guidelines as to how to role-play his character, i've given him a history, a hometown, memories to latch onto, and i've planted a few seeds for possible sessions. I've also tied him to at least one of the other PC's, which goes a long way toward keeping your players together. Just how i like to do it.

Huh! That seems like a lot of details that the player has to work with! I haven't DM'd before (though I may give it a try in the near future), but I'm not sure how I would feel if someone else had that much control over my character's backstory. I am an experienced actor, though, so I'd probably have little trouble going with it and maybe discussing aspects of it that I thought didn't work given the PC I had in mind.

[Shrinn]

With that i've given the player some guidelines as to how to role-play his character, i've given him a history, a hometown, memories to latch onto, and i've planted a few seeds for possible sessions. I've also tied him to at least one of the other PC's, which goes a long way toward keeping your players together. Just how i like to do it.

I'd much rather make my own backstory and work with other people to intertwine it. But I'm creative so I need to have my own control. When I'm DMing I try to find a reason to intertwine them within the first campaign. Usually because the people I play with are way too lazy to complete a character before right before we play.

[Virtual Machine]

Huh! That seems like a lot of details that the player has to work with! I haven't DM'd before (though I may give it a try in the near future), but I'm not sure how I would feel if someone else had that much control over my character's backstory. I am an experienced actor, though, so I'd probably have little trouble going with it and maybe discussing aspects of it that I thought didn't work given the PC I had in mind.

When i'd first thought of doing it i kind of felt that way, then i tried it. Some of my players do come to the table with more significant backstories, and i take what they have and run with it, and when i cook up my little plots, it's usually in line with how my players typically act, and based on their input (I've known most of my players for over 10 years, some over 20), so more often than not, they're pretty happy with the outcome.

Kev, the professional actor of the group, once likened it to the classic cliche of a director giving motivation.

At the end of the day, i find it's the style that works best for my group, and the emphasis on narrative keeps everyone more entertained. You don't often get that classic, "You're in town, what do you do?" "I go to the TAVERN!" Bullshit. Everyone usually comes into a campaign with some sort of a "hook".

[Lithium Flower]

I think I'm pretty much as interfering a DM as Virtual Machine here but like him I believe that if you can find a way to mesh the character better into the story, it works much better than the Tavern cliche.

If a player has a significant background story in mind, then I work with the player to build it into the story if not, I ask what type of character the player wants to play and help them work out a character that is appropriate, different and fun to play.

As for the PHB 2, I think the new races look quite awesome and interesting as do the new classes but that is my exact gripe with it. I tend to be really wary of groups where every PC is of a completely unheard of race and class. That is so very unnatural and contrived. I want most of my players to be of the most common race of the region, with a dash of other appropriate races.

Likewise I think I would end up discouraging my players from playing most of the PHB 2 races (unless there was good reason to) because I think they would be better suited to serve as important NPCs or villains rather than PCs. I like PCs to be as mundane as possible and for players to make them unique not by slapping on an unusual race or class but by coming up with a personality to set them apart.

[rifter]

I like the new PHB. I love the Devas. Very cool concept.

I really like the wild-Mage build, too. I have always loved the wild mage. :-) All in all, I think it is a really good book, and I don't think it one-ups anything.