Music Making Programs of all kinds

[Karak]

:mad:
Mother flucker!

I tell you. I have been doing this now for going on 6 years and basically never ever found a program that didn't crash, break, refuse to save or in other ways kill your want to live. I found that going with the really newbie programs was the ONLY way to make music. And in the end it is. I finally ponied up some money for some Natural Instruments programs and not a single one works perfectly. And their tech support is the same as most of the companies.
Sorry, we are working on it...argh.
And the sad thing is, the one I want to work FM8 and also Kore 2 are freaking amazing looking. But when whole sites are dedicated to just getting them to run right...well that aint a good sign.
Back to Music Maker and the EJay Series for me. They may be hella young but at least they fucking save.

[Shadowstorm]

Give FL Studio a try.

I've tried a whole host of DAWs and I've become rather accustomed to it. I myself have been trying a program called Fixed Noise OTTO for a couple weeks now and I can't even use my keyboard to produce sounds as it all has to be done by the mouse, which is rather inefficient. If there is an option to do just that, I haven't found it yet. The UI is rather odd to navigate.

But yeah, give FL Studio a go. The demo version disables saving. I don't think there are any other restrictions in place.

[carnage11]

Fruity Loops is alright for messing around with. Have you ever tried Reason? You should give it try.

Beware with FL, it can really bog down your system if you get a lot of plug-ins running.

[Karak]

Give FL Studio a try.

I've tried a whole host of DAWs and I've become rather accustomed to it. I myself have been trying a program called Fixed Noise OTTO for a couple weeks now and I can't even use my keyboard to produce sounds as it all has to be done by the mouse, which is rather inefficient. If there is an option to do just that, I haven't found it yet. The UI is rather odd to navigate.

But yeah, give FL Studio a go. The demo version disables saving. I don't think there are any other restrictions in place.

Ya I have both FL and Reason. Reason was ok, but it is lacking some of the features I want, including a somewhat visual SWYG interface. And it only crashed once or twice. As for FL Studio, I enjoy it but it is sort of like the DOS of music makers. Its great if you get pretty close to the metal sort of speak. I may try it again. Kore 2 was seriously lighting my fire but man, having that peice of shit crash for like the 40th time almost killed me.
And thebest part. It comes with maybe 4000 samples...1...1 played.
I mean it. 1.
Not an exageration. Acid Entry was the file name and it was the ONLY file that played through the entire thing. Midi outs and in's were set up fine...sigh.

I am messing with Music Maker right now and I have to admit its pretty damn cool, the new version has a shitton of stuff. I may stick with it for awhile and may use Fruity for some of the cleanup.

[Bone]

Cubase is the shit. It does everything Pro Tools can do, with less hardware. Other than Pro Tools having the market cornered, there is no reason to use it when Cubase and other tools are equal and/or better.

Now to the reason music programs crash: they are recording extremely high quality samples of music (large chunks of data), often converting the analog signal to digital (DA conversion) unless you have a dedicated sound card that handles the conversion, often doing things like adding filters/EQ/compression on the fly (again, unless you've bought hardware that handles this), writing all of this data to disk and trying to do the whole thing with low latency (to the ears: instantly).

There is a reason music studios cost so much- it's a lot more taxing to a system to record audio than it is to play a video game (not counting the video card of course) when it comes to CPU and RAM and disk use. So, either you buy some good dedicated hardware, or you learn to prioritize your recording sessions. For example, record without any plugins or filters to get your tracks into the DAW. Create an ongoing rough mix of all tracks and record new tracks with this mixed track as the only other live track (the more tracks you have, obviously the worse the DAW will perform while adding new tracks). Later, you can switch to high latency when you are just mixing and mastering all of the raw tracks you captured, and this will give you some CPU cycles back.

I have found that Reaper (http://www.cockos.com/reaper/) is an excellent nagware/shareware app (written by the kid who wrote Winamp) that embodies most of the features of a traditional (expensive) DAW, while being more lightweight than Cubase. It was my choice when I had to use a low-end laptop to record a live podcast for IGC (Evil Avatar Radio at the time) with two incoming mic streams. I paired it with a Presonus Firebox, which handles the D/A conversion, leaving the PC's CPU to handle only the incoming data and getting it to disk.

[torrefaction]

I'm personally a big fan of Ableton these days, although Cubase is an EXTREMELY close second. Although truthfully I'm a little shocked to hear of your problems with Kore 2 and FM8. I used Kore a good little bit, with no problems. The truth is you need a decent amount of NI plugins to make Kore REALLY worth it though, if you ask me.

[DangerousDaze]

Give Orion Platinum a try. It may not have the fanciest front-end but the sound engine underneath is excellent (and that's what counts, right?) It also comes with some features that on their own are worth the price of Orion (e.g. the convolution reverb).

[Karak]

Cubase is the shit. It does everything Pro Tools can do, with less hardware. Other than Pro Tools having the market cornered, there is no reason to use it when Cubase and other tools are equal and/or better.


I have found that Reaper (http://www.cockos.com/reaper/) is an excellent nagware/shareware app (written by the kid who wrote Winamp) that embodies most of the features of a traditional (expensive) DAW, while being more lightweight than Cubase. It was my choice when I had to use a low-end laptop to record a live podcast for IGC (Evil Avatar Radio at the time) with two incoming mic streams. I paired it with a Presonus Firebox, which handles the D/A conversion, leaving the PC's CPU to handle only the incoming data and getting it to disk.
I will have to check out Cubase again, I didn't like it at all the first year I used it.
Thanks for the link I may check it out.
I may just offload everything to a different computer and begin using 1 for music and the other for everything else. Especially now that I am getting paid again for this shit, I am not about to see even a couple minutes of my time wasted by a crash or bad save.

[Karak]

I'm personally a big fan of Ableton these days, although Cubase is an EXTREMELY close second. Although truthfully I'm a little shocked to hear of your problems with Kore 2 and FM8. I used Kore a good little bit, with no problems. The truth is you need a decent amount of NI plugins to make Kore REALLY worth it though, if you ask me.

Got a question.
Did you find any problems with your midi setup. I am wondering if that is the issue. And since the damn software cost so much I would like it to work. But again right now, only a single freaking sample plays...is very strange. I LOVE the look of Kore 2. As for FM8, it works now, I have been playing with it a bit. But after buying it, if I open it in any other program it defaults to demo mode. Very strange. I just bought both of them for a good deal of cash so hopefully the tech support can help.

[Karak]

Give Orion Platinum a try. It may not have the fanciest front-end but the sound engine underneath is excellent (and that's what counts, right?) It also comes with some features that on their own are worth the price of Orion (e.g. the convolution reverb).

Thank you sir I will check this out.
Damn should have just done 1 reply to everyone.

[Bone]

So, my question is what kind of music making are you doing?

If you are recording bands (or recording yourself) your needs may be completely different than making electronic music or relying heavily on MIDI.

Or you may need both, in which case you may want to look at connecting multiple machines, and having each perform a specific role. You may have one computer handling MIDI, another doing VST/DX effects, and the other hosting the main DAW application where it all comes together.

[Karak]

So, my question is what kind of music making are you doing?

If you are recording bands (or recording yourself) your needs may be completely different than making electronic music or relying heavily on MIDI.

Or you may need both, in which case you may want to look at connecting multiple machines, and having each perform a specific role. You may have one computer handling MIDI, another doing VST/DX efects, and the other hosting the main DAW application where it all comes together.

Exactly right.
Both. And I think I will just fork out the cash for a second computer first and see how that goes. and perhaps look at a 3rd at a later time. I hated having 3 computers in the past and really wanted to get away from it, but I guess thats life. Time to take over another room in my home:)
I can get all I need and utilize current equipment for around a grand so thats not that bad.
Thanks.

[Bone]

Cool, good to know. My next question is: what is your current audio interface (how do you capture incoming audio signals)?

I personally have had great luck with the PreSonus Firebox. If you need more inputs you can chain a couple of those together- for even more, the Firepod or FireStudio lines get into the professional gear territory, capturing more than 8 analog signals at a time.

Mark of the Unicorn also makes solid gear, I hear.

Avoid M-Audio's D/A stuff. Most of it relies on USB instead of Firewire, and the overall reviews of their stuff is poor. However, I can vouch for their MIDI controller keyboards, which are solid although a bit simple.

[Karak]

Cool, good to know. My next question is: what is your current audio interface (how do you capture incoming audio signals)?

I personally have had great luck with the PreSonus Firebox. If you need more inputs you can chain a couple of those together- for even more, the Firepod or FireStudio lines get into the professional gear territory, capturing more than 8 analog signals at a time.

Mark of the Unicorn also makes solid gear, I hear.

Avoid M-Audio's D/A stuff. Most of it relies on USB instead of Firewire, and the overall reviews of their stuff is poor. However, I can vouch for their MIDI controller keyboards, which are solid although a bit simple.

I was using M-Audio Midi keyboard and love it I am also using M-Audio Fast Ultra but I was noticing the same USB issues as you discuss. With a PreSonus Firebox whats the latency like?

[torrefaction]

Got a question.
Did you find any problems with your midi setup. I am wondering if that is the issue. And since the damn software cost so much I would like it to work. But again right now, only a single freaking sample plays...is very strange. I LOVE the look of Kore 2. As for FM8, it works now, I have been playing with it a bit. But after buying it, if I open it in any other program it defaults to demo mode. Very strange. I just bought both of them for a good deal of cash so hopefully the tech support can help.

Not a one. I hosted Kore as a VST inside Ableton, and never saw (many) issues. The majority of the sounds all worked just fine for me. I don't use them currently (I'll be honest, I downloaded them to see if they'd be worth the money. I think they DEFINITELY are, but I just don't have the cash right now)

I didn't use the Kore interface itself though, just the plugin. I use a Focusrite Saffire Pro 10 (8 in/8 out. FANTASTIC pre-amps. The only reason I went with them over PreSonus.). I use the MIDI in/clock of the Saffire, and never had a single problem with my MIDI.

And I'm actually a little insane. I do a *LOT* from one rig. I'll even output to my PA and use guitar rig as my live effects when I'm feeling frisky.

[torrefaction]

Also, the M-Audio MIDI stuff is just fine, but the interfaces are *SHIT*. Converters are awful, latency is high, preamps suck, etc, etc.

You can get the newer model of the Saffire Pro I use for only $50 more. FocusRite is renowned for their preamp quality, so I'm a fan.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SaffirePro40/

*Edit*

Now I want the new model... :( It has a DSP mixer.

[Bone]

I can achieve 3-4 ms latency with PreSonus gear - this is VERY low and about as close to "instant" as you can get. Definitely the ear doesn't notice it, and any tracks you record end up staying in sync.

If you could, I would recommend selling the Fast Ultra and looking into some Firewire gear from PreSonus or MOTU. Even using USB 2.0 you will notice drops, especially as you record more tracks simultaneously. The problem with USB (even 2.0) is that although it is rated slightly faster than Firewire in raw throughput, in practice, USB rarely reaches those numbers and constantly fluctuates. Firewire tends to keep things pegged at close to the maximum rated throughput.

So, for example, your 8 streams of audio will all arrive in sync and intact with Firewire; with USB, sometimes you will lose something along the way. I don't have to tell you that this usually happens when you don't want it to, and ends up resulting in you having to do the work again. And telling a musician to capture the magic "again" is like punching them in the face :)

[Karak]

And telling a musician to capture the magic "again" is like punching them in the face :)

That would be me:)
Ha but thanks man I love the sound of this I think I will check it out.

@Torra
Thanks man I will check that one out as well

[torrefaction]

Who's Torra?

[Karak]

Who's Torra?

Sorry sir, I was in a hurry I meant you:)

[KidCactus]

Also, the M-Audio MIDI stuff is just fine, but the interfaces are *SHIT*. Converters are awful, latency is high, preamps suck, etc, etc.
I have a M-Audio Firewire Audiophile for my Mac Pro, which I use with Cubase Studio 4, and it works great.

[torrefaction]

I have a M-Audio Firewire Audiophile for my Mac Pro, which I use with Cubase Studio 4, and it works great.

Working doesn't change the fact that M-Audio gear has higher latency, crappy D/A converters, and low-end preamps. If it fits your needs, that's fine, but there's a reason it's cheap.

[Bone]

That's exactly what I was getting at. They got MIDI right, but their converters, latency, and preamps suck. PreSonus, on the other hand, strikes a nice balance of low cost with good quality. Their preamps in particular are really great for the cost. MOTU is very popular with audiophiles, but I haven't bought any of their gear.

[KidCactus]

I have no latency problem at all though, got about 2.5 ms at 44.1 KHz.

[DangerousDaze]

Just don't have any external gear. Easy! :)

[Karak]

Back on software topic, because it usually gets less spit and piss anger from people.
Anyone else use Kore 2 correctly? If anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them.

[Bone]

I have no latency problem at all though, got about 2.5 ms at 44.1 KHz.

For one, it's one of their few (at least historically) Firewire boxes. Most of their gear is USB which is a major problem.

Also, how many simultaneous signals are you recording on that box? I'm guessing one, or two at max.

Lastly... M-Audio's preamps, as noted, are not so good. They may work for what you're doing, but you may also run into limitations recording vocals on a particular singer, or maybe trying to capture a delicate instrument with lots of dynamics (a really good acoustic guitar player, for example).

Still, if it works, it works!

[DangerousDaze]

Could I just say a big ironic "thank you" to whoever it was who mentioned KORE 2 first? I've just been reading their website and I'm getting a severe case of gear lust! I can see it costing me a fortune. :p

[Karak]

Could I just say a big ironic "thank you" to whoever it was who mentioned KORE 2 first? I've just been reading their website and I'm getting a severe case of gear lust! I can see it costing me a fortune. :p

Hahahah that would probably be me.It is amazing man.

[CES]

Fruity Loops is alright for messing around with. Have you ever tried Reason? You should give it try.

Beware with FL, it can really bog down your system if you get a lot of plug-ins running.

Reason's biggest flaw is the lack of external plugin support. That said, what's there is quite excellent.

As for Kore 2, I use the regular KORE player with those nicely priced soundpacks. It's very, very stable as a standalone program and you don't need their special controller to get the most out of it.

I have to admit, I have a huge preference for Native Instruments plugins since there's pretty much nothing better in their pricepoint.

[Karak]

Reason's biggest flaw is the lack of external plugin support. That said, what's there is quite excellent.

As for Kore 2, I use the regular KORE player with those nicely priced soundpacks. It's very, very stable as a standalone program and you don't need their special controller to get the most out of it.

I have to admit, I have a huge preference for Native Instruments plugins since there's pretty much nothing better in their pricepoint.

If only even a single sample played I would be ALL over this. Kore and Kore 2 look outstanding. However, I found out that I was not the only one having issues with Kore. In fact it seems that any NI stuff has a very strange relationship with the community.
I can't remember the last time I ever heard of a program being programmed by Gloriously talented armless retards before hahahaha

[CES]

If only even a single sample played I would be ALL over this. Kore and Kore 2 look outstanding. However, I found out that I was not the only one having issues with Kore. In fact it seems that any NI stuff has a very strange relationship with the community.
I can't remember the last time I ever heard of a program being programmed by Gloriously talented armless retards before hahahaha

Is it loading the samples correctly? Some samples also only work on 1 or 2 keys so it can seem like they don't play.

[Karak]

Is it loading the samples correctly? Some samples also only work on 1 or 2 keys so it can seem like they don't play.

Ya I checked that. I just got unlucky I guess. 500.00 bucks unlucky.

[CES]

500? I guess you bought the KORE controller as well then. Go yell at NI's customer support some more to get it fixed.

[01010s]

I will give my vote for Ableton live right here. Absolutely immensely powerful program. Use it with a few VST's and rewire Reason into it too. Absolutely a joy to use Reason through Ableton as it gives Reason the punchy kick in the arse that it's sound engine needs.

[Karak]

Finally got Kore 2 working. 4 identical installs later and suddenly she is working great. Now to get Omnisphere working and then I am back in business.

[CES]

Omnisphere is the single biggest nightmare and the single best virtual instrument I've heard. The 30gb library and price tag are a bit harsh though.

[Karak]

Omnisphere is the single biggest nightmare and the single best virtual instrument I've heard. The 30gb library and price tag are a bit harsh though.

I love it so far. I guess I should have said I needed to come to grips with it, because it was already working. But I LOVE the setup so far.

[CES]

I love it so far. I guess I should have said I needed to come to grips with it, because it was already working. But I LOVE the setup so far.

Spectrasonics are a close second to Native Instruments in my "Everything they build is made of awesome" list. Atmosphere is possibly the best pad/ambient VST around.

Also, for those who buy/have bought KORE Soundpacks: Thoughts on the True Strike Tension pack? I'm considering buying it to fill a gap in my audio collection (namely, orchestral percussion)

[Karak]

Spectrasonics are a close second to Native Instruments in my "Everything they build is made of awesome" list. Atmosphere is possibly the best pad/ambient VST around.

Also, for those who buy/have bought KORE Soundpacks: Thoughts on the True Strike Tension pack? I'm considering buying it to fill a gap in my audio collection (namely, orchestral percussion)
Haven't played with it. Got it up and running and looking at more soundpacks there are so many to choose from.

[Raen]

Considering what people have been saying about preamps on M-Audio products the preamps on my Delta 1010 LT seem fine to me, but that might just be me not used to anything particularly high quality.