Sweet Merciful Crap: Full Frontal Nudity in Lost & Damned

[DoctorFinger]

Are you one of those enterprising souls who have already downloaded the GTA IV DLC: The Lost and the Damned? Then good news, you've downloaded what will almost certainly be the most controversial game of the year! Why? Full frontal male nudity, of course!

Yes kiddies, there is fully digitized virtual junk in the game. And not a fleeting glimpse either, as you can see if you click the 'more' button and watch the video of the encounter over at Gamevideos (behind an age gate, of course). The main character has a meeting with a Congressman who is receiving a full body massage. Near the end (the 3:08 mark to be precise) the Congressman stands up and is completely naked for about 20 seconds.

How big a deal is this? Pretty big, but in general for the wrong reasons. It's just a fact of life that we're much more accepting of female nudity than we are of male nudity. However full frontal female nudity hasn't appeared in any ESRB-rated console game which I'm aware of, and certainly not as...boldly as in The Lost and the Damned. This will certainly set off a firestorm of epic proportions, and the usual media hounds are certainly prepping denouncements as we speak.

On the other hand, some will hail this as a step forward for the maturation of the medium. Are they right? I'm not sure. It's certainly a clear provocation by Rockstar; the nudity itself seems to have no bearing on the story. By doing it so casually and pointlessly it may actually discourage other developers from pursuing tasteful nudity for story or gameplay reasons. Only time will tell

23672

Source - 1UP (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3172816).

[Mdot]

Push that envelope, Rockstar.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Well, as part of SKBOMM, the Society to Keep Balls Out of My Media , I'm against this.

[Nura]

Kind of reminds me of the "penis-shots" in "Forgetting Sarah Marshall".. those were totally uncalled for aswell :P

[zarathstra]

::shrug:: Its digital junk. Big whoop. Its not like I don't see the real thing every day.

[SilentScreams]

Man...I defended Rockstar over the whole Hot Coffee thing, but now they're just asking for it.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but they know they're going to get a lot of shit for this stuff, and yet they keep doing it.
I actually hope they get some kind of punishment for it.

I wouldn't even care if it added anything at all to the game, but it really doesn't. They're so obviously doing it just to get some attention.

[bapenguin]

Yeah, this is totally a comedic thing.

The ESRB really needs to get their ratings in line with the film ratings boards, then all of this can be a non issue.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Yes, Rockstar. We will take your big, adult story so serious. SO SERIOUS. Make sure that all the radio stations make immature dick jokes and that you show lots of comedic penis, though. That's the best way to be taken seriously.

Bunch of children.

[opsin]

They're just getting us ready to deal with Dr. Manhattan!

[Gorvi]

Yes, Rockstar. We will take your big, adult story so serious. SO SERIOUS. Make sure that all the radio stations make immature dick jokes and that you show lots of comedic penis, though. That's the best way to be taken seriously.

Bunch of children.
That's basically the impression that I got from the 2 hours I played of GTA4 so far. It's mature in the way that movies like Meet The Spartans are "mature".

[c0m3d14n]

How big a deal is this? Pretty big

^^ it seems very inanimate maybe they dont have enough experience animating this bodypart ;)

[TheFlyingOrc]

That's basically the impression that I got from the 2 hours I played of GTA4 so far. It's mature in the way that movies like Meet The Spartans are "mature".

Right. They're roughly what a 13-year-old thinks of as "mature".

[DoctorFinger]

^^ it seems very inanimate maybe they dont have enough experience animating this bodypart ;)I though my double entendres were pretty restrained. Read the 1UP link, or the Joystiq article and you'll see how out of hand the joke can get.

[Bingley Joe]

Yeah, that was completely pointless and is only going to get people all jibbery for nothing.

Maybe I could swallow the 'pushing the envelope' argument a little better if the GTA games weren't already so trite and sophomoric, but sadly this amounts to nothing more than another lame dick joke in an endless stream of them.

GG, Rockstar.

[National Kato]

I actually hope they get some kind of punishment for it.

Bunch of children.

I wonder if these would be the types of comments posted had the nudity been female?

It's obvious Rockstar is doing this for shock value. But they've been doing things like this for awhile, so it's no surprise. It's also no big deal. I think society spends too much time worrying about nudity anyway. The people who get up in arms about this kind of thing typically don't have much else to do.

[Panthera]

Personally, I'm pro-penis.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I wonder if these would be the types of comments posted had the nudity been female?

It's obvious Rockstar is doing this for shock value. But they've been doing things like this for awhile, so it's no surprise. It's also no big deal. I think society spends too much time worrying about nudity anyway. The people who get up in arms about this kind of thing typically don't have much else to do.

I'm not that shocked by it, I just think that its high time for their potty humor to end.

Had it been full frontal female nudity (which is actually kinda hard to display strongly in a non-pornographic context), I would have probably said manchildren, not children. They aren't "artfully expressing the human body", they're doing the equivalent of fart jokes. This is not to be applauded.

[Telefrog]

Is it wrong that I don't care about seeing virtual junk? I'm just not sure why people get in such a tizzy over stuff like this. The GTA franchise has never been a kid-friendly set of games, so why should this matter?

[National Kato]

They aren't "artfully expressing the human body", they're doing the equivalent of fart jokes. This is not to be applauded.

Well, I'm sure the industry will eventually design games that meet the standards you are demanding. Until then, I still don't see the big deal.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Well, I'm sure the industry will eventually design games that meet the standards you are demanding. Until then, I still don't see the big deal.

I'm insulting them on the internet, not calling people in arms to censor them. It isn't a big deal, you're just grouping me with the opinion of some other people.

[Alkanos]

Wow, that was completely tasteless. I don't have a problem with them showing the guy's junk, but it could been done well if they really wanted to throw a cock in that scene.

You can see on the MC's face that moment of "Oh son of a bitch, he's naked..." If they had put the flash in the beginning, it would have helped make that point to the player, of just how uncomfortable the scene is. Instead, they throw it in the end, once everyone's gotten over the whole awkward nakedness.

Yeah, I know that's pretty flimsy, but it's still better than what they have!

[Telefrog]

I've always thought it was funny how Rockstar got into a lose-lose situation with GTA IV. People want open world mayhem, but they also want mature, dramatic storylines. They got criticized for having juvenile humor in GTA IV, but everyone asked, "why can't it be more like Saints Row 2" with activities like spraying people with sewage and streaking.

[Kelegacy]

Yeah, this is totally a comedic thing.

The ESRB really needs to get their ratings in line with the film ratings boards, then all of this can be a non issue.

I agree. R and M are the same things to me.

But that will make cause more legislation to ban sales of M games to kids under 17. If so, I'm all for it. I'm an adult, let me see some dick.

...just kidding about the last part, I just want people to accept that games are not just for kids. That's why there are ratings, after all. I didn't mind that it was in Forgetting Sarah Marshall, though it definitely was shocking (and funny) because it is so uncommon. But that was the point.

[bapenguin]

also - and I think pheriannath for this one

the correct term will be "penile polygons"

[Widgetcraft]

Yes, Rockstar. We will take your big, adult story so serious. SO SERIOUS. Make sure that all the radio stations make immature dick jokes and that you show lots of comedic penis, though. That's the best way to be taken seriously.

Bunch of children.

It is almost like they think this is all some kind of fucking game. Bastards.

[Hotcod]

nudity is accepted in film so long as it's rated right and even if rockstar are clearly doing it to get this kind of news coverage it's an important step. Personally i think they've done it purely to send jack tompson in to a huge, impotent, rage. I'm down with that.

[National Kato]

I'm insulting them on the internet, not calling people in arms to censor them. It isn't a big deal, you're just grouping me with the opinion of some other people.

Hey, I was lumping you in because you made a point to post:

Yes, Rockstar. We will take your big, adult story so serious. SO SERIOUS. Make sure that all the radio stations make immature dick jokes and that you show lots of comedic penis, though. That's the best way to be taken seriously.

Bunch of children. As if Rockstar ever considered themselves 'serious.' You can blame the media for making all those 'Oscar-worthy' claims, but Rockstar never did. They've always been unabashedly juvenile. Your first response in this thread made me laugh. The second made me scratch my head.

[menage]

On the other hand, some will hail this as a step forward for the maturation of the medium.

I read masturbation:D

About fucking time somebody broke that fucking boundary. If shooting someone in the head is acceptable so is a bare ass. I don't care if it's juvenile, junk or whatever. The fact that it's such a big deal is laughable in the first place. Seeing everyones got an ass to start with.

[Johan]

It's rated M for mature, right? I don't see the big deal...

Also, and for the umpteenth time, people should just vote with their dollars. That's what I do. I'm not buying it, because I'm just not interested. Period.

I find it pretty amusing that I, as one of the more socially conservative people here, have much less of a problem with stuff like this than a number of others here. My "thing" has always been that I like making my own commercial/economic choices regarding content I "expose" myself to, and extending that right to others as much as possible as well. Don't buy it. Buy it. Whatever!

Make a choice! Let others do the same!

[TheFlyingOrc]

As if Rockstar ever considered themselves 'serious.' You can blame the media for making all those 'Oscar-worthy' claims, but Rockstar never did. They've always been unabashedly juvenile. Your first response in this thread made me laugh. The second made me scratch my head.
Dude, they did. I'm hunting down the interview now, but they took themselves VERY seriously this time. I'll post it once I find it.

Edit: Tom Chick (http://fidgit.com/archives/2009/01/grand-theft-auto-writer-tried.php), as usual, says it better than I can.

[roboninja]

Personally, I think the people the most childish in this situation are those shocked and dismayed. Nudity is not evil.

[Psykoboy2]

I read masturbation:D

About fucking time somebody broke that fucking boundary. If shooting someone in the head is acceptable so is a bare ass. I don't care if it's juvenile, junk or whatever. The fact that it's such a big deal is laughable in the first place. Seeing everyones got an ass to start with.

It's a penis, dude. Bare ass too, but there's also e-peen in there.

[BigJonno]

I don't get the "childish" comments. I'm pretty sure that Rockstar aren't sitting there going "hur, hur, we put a thingy in GTA, isn't that funny, hur hur." They did it for shock value. Whether it's "this'll get us some column inches" shock value or "let's make a point about nudity vs violence in the media or games ratings vs movie ratings" shock value is up for debate.

Though I am finding the series increasingly schizophrenic. Maybe they should split into two teams, one that makes linear, mature, story-based crime games and one that makes sandbox games with pop-culture references, toilet humour and blowing shit up.

[Mike Kelehan]

The rule of nudity in entertainment: female nudity is sexy, male nudity is funny.

[Wilkz07]

::shrug:: Its digital junk. Big whoop. Its not like I don't see the real thing every day.

Same with the movie Sideways... didn't need to see the fat guy running out to the car naked.

as long as that video is off-set by a lot of female nudity I don't care. i tend to skip cutscenes as i get bored with them anyway.

[torrefaction]

I'm so sick of people blindly agreeing that the criticism of Rockstar is justified. It's fucking nudity people, we're born this way. Rockstar likes to make shocking political statements. This is simply another one. Yes, it's full of controversy. Good.

Also, those of you who willingly play violent games then decry nudity? I have no respect for that, whatsoever. If you want to be principled, reject the violence. But to call out the nudity in a game with executions in it? If you ask me....THAT'S what's sick.

I'm of the opinion neither matters and it's just fiction and nudity is just people without clothes. But if nudity is so awful it shouldn't be in video games, then neither should violence.

Pick a side, we're at war.

[agentgray]

This is a test to see what they can get away with next game.

[menage]

It's a penis, dude. Bare ass too, but there's also e-peen in there.

I know, I was just referring to nudity in general,

Male and female. Penis and Vagina. Let them be free

[DoctorFinger]

A few things i want to say.

1) I have no problem with male (or female) nudity in a game, and I never have. My only complaint here is having to defend Rockstar as some sort of bastion of free speech for such a lame joke.

2) I was surprised by the lack of previous hue and cry over the ESRB's reaction to this virtual junk, when i had a thought: Could this be why the DLC has been delayed so much? Could there have been wrangling back and forth between Rockstar/Take-Two and the ESRB over this very scene?

[Smoof]

I'm not that shocked by it, I just think that its high time for their potty humor to end.

Had it been full frontal female nudity (which is actually kinda hard to display strongly in a non-pornographic context)

In what way, might I ask? You're sounding a might sexist...

[Codicier]

Maybe with the recession, all the legislators will be too busy with important stuff to do anything about this, so all you'll have left to decry it are a bunch of powerless complainers.

So yeah, I don't care. Juvenile? Probably, but that's their right same as ever.

I like the tags on this one as well. :D

Anyway, if nothing else, this thread is going to be interesting to read over lunch.

EDIT: full disclosure, I haven't watched it yet, nsfw and all that. My assumption that it's juvenile is based on what others in the thread are saying. Of course, my position doesn't really change regardless of whether its juvenile or not.

[EternalGamer]

Am I the only one that actually WATCHED that scene? It actually fit the scene and character, it wasn't being used for over the top comedy, and the actual nudity is maybe 4 seconds total.

This is GTA 4 though, so the missions themselves and shooting and cover mechanics probably still suck, so I'm still not buying it.

As a side note, that character modeling actually looks better than I remember. Until the penis shot itself, that is, which is kind of poorly modeled and stands out for that reason rather than "because it is a penis."

[Planetbuster]

I give it a big who cares........anyone with a internet connection can find naked pics all day long......its their game, do what the hell you want with it and I will do what I want with my money.....

[ElektroDragon]

I am going to wait for shome shrinkage before I buy this....

Price-wise, I mean. 1600 is too much.

[Kelegacy]

Personally, I think the people the most childish in this situation are those shocked and dismayed. Nudity is not evil.

Yes it is! I can't help but feel evil, lusty thoughts when I see nudity and I can't control myself. Please, remove this filth from all media! And music with too much noise!

Boobs, dick, ass...bad. Murder...okay.

I would think a big, fat, harmless dick would be much more acceptable than the gore I see in games like Ninja Gaiden II. I love it all, but people get upset over the wrong things.

[Johan]

Until the penis shot itself, that is, which is kind of poorly modeled

You have now made the "penis model" cry. Think of HIS feelings, why don't you!?! :D

[TheFlyingOrc]

In what way, might I ask? You're sounding a might sexist...

You're misreading me. In order to clearly see a vagina, the woman pretty much has to display it to you. They don't hang out like man danglies do. A nude woman (especially unshaven) doesn't have the same visual impact unless she goes out of her way to spread her legs or turn around and bend over.

I'm talking camera angles, not societal roles.

[EternalGamer]

You have now made the "penis model" cry. Think of HIS feelings, why don't you!?! :D

Maybe it is Mr. Stub's (the nude guy in the trailer's) fault and not the penis. He is a pretty attractive character model but he apparently can't wear a penis properly. Maybe someone should give him lessons?

[EternalGamer]

You're misreading me. In order to clearly see a vagina, the woman pretty much has to display it to you. They don't hang out like man danglies do. A nude woman (especially unshaven) doesn't have the same visual impact unless she goes out of her way to spread her legs or turn around and bend over.

I'm talking camera angles, not societal roles.

Nude women don't have the same visual impact because the penis "hangs out"? What about breasts, don't they "hang out"? Their is two of those, so by this logic, femal nudity = TWICE the geometric impact.

Talking about the geometry of male and female bodies as a way to determine whether one is appropriate or not to be shown seems pretty absurd.

[Wedge]

It's rated M for mature, right? I don't see the big deal...

Also, and for the umpteenth time, people should just vote with their dollars. That's what I do. I'm not buying it, because I'm just not interested. Period.

I find it pretty amusing that I, as one of the more socially conservative people here, have much less of a problem with stuff like this than a number of others here. My "thing" has always been that I like making my own commercial/economic choices regarding content I "expose" myself to, and extending that right to others as much as possible as well. Don't buy it. Buy it. Whatever!

Make a choice! Let others do the same!

Personally, I think the people the most childish in this situation are those shocked and dismayed. Nudity is not evil.

This and that.

It is a funny scene with an overly social politician. To drive the point home a penis is shown. If this was an M-rated movie you wouldn't even think twice.

Sure, Rockstar knew this would cause headlines, but the joke is not on Rockstar, but on all the sites spending space on this piece of "news", the people getting worked up over it, and me for using time to "defend" it.

Rockstar knows how to play the game, and we fall for it each damned time.

As for pushing the envelope: Yes they are. In this ultra conservative (exept for violence) medium they actually are pushing the envelope. And fuck me if that isn't sad fact.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Talking about the geometry of male and female bodies as a way to determine whether one is appropriate or not to be shown seems pretty absurd.
This is not what I'm saying at all.

[National Kato]

Let's not forget that the ESRB stamp does say 'Nudity' whereas the original GTA4 game had 'Partial Nudity.' The ESRB is fully aware of the phallus.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Let's not forget that the ESRB stamp does say 'Nudity' whereas the original GTA4 game had 'Partial Nudity.' The ESRB is fully aware of the phallus.

They don't dick around.

[National Kato]

They don't dick around.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f27/NationalKato/kaneclap.gif

[Telefrog]

Orson Welles clapping gif

Every time I see that gif I wonder if the person posting it understands the meaning of that scene in the context of the movie. It most definitely is not a sincere applause. :D

[Bone]

The rule of nudity in entertainment: female nudity is sexy, male nudity is funny.

Go watch The Bad Lieutenant and tell me the same thing. I still haven't recovered *shudder*.

Anyway, I can't believe nudity is still such an important issue to so many. Is Rockstar doing it to shock? Sure. But maybe they're trying to headbutt through a wall of ignorance as to what is really the offensive content.

To me, I'm more offended by a bad game than I am by nudity OR violence. If the material is rated for adults, why shouldn't the content match the rating?

[National Kato]

Every time I see that gif I wonder if the person posting it understands the meaning of that scene in the context of the movie. It most definitely is not a sincere applause. :D

:D Sure, but it's the most sincere animated gif I've seen. Charles Foster Kane's actual intent notwithstanding.

[MosBen]

What controls are in place to restrict downloads from Live? Can parents choose to restrict only downloads of a particular rating?

Like just about everyone here, I think the hypocrisy on violence vs. nudity in games and movies is more than a bit ridiculous but I am all for giving parents the tools and help they need to restrict their kids' access to content that they object to. In the stores I think this means restricted sales to minors. I have supported legislation to do that in the past, but I feel like I saw statistics at some point in the last year that stores were getting better at self policing, so I'm willing to consider that perhaps it's no longer necessary. My only concern here is that parents won't be able to restrict their kid's ability to download this while permitting their kid to continue to download other content. Honestly, I don't have kids so I've never bothered to look at the parental controls on my 360, so maybe you're already able to do that. As long as parents have the ability to make decisions for their kids without there being an end run around their decision through the store or Live, I'm good. Indeed, I think adult content in games should be expanded once and if parents are able to restrict their kids' access to it.

[Suave Peanut]

Yep. It's a penis.

:shrug:


+1 awesome for use of the "ohshit" tag

[Philonious]

What controls are in place to restrict downloads from Live? Can parents choose to restrict only downloads of a particular rating?

Like just about everyone here, I think the hypocrisy on violence vs. nudity in games and movies is more than a bit ridiculous but I am all for giving parents the tools and help they need to restrict their kids' access to content that they object to. In the stores I think this means restricted sales to minors. I have supported legislation to do that in the past, but I feel like I saw statistics at some point in the last year that stores were getting better at self policing, so I'm willing to consider that perhaps it's no longer necessary. My only concern here is that parents won't be able to restrict their kid's ability to download this while permitting their kid to continue to download other content. Honestly, I don't have kids so I've never bothered to look at the parental controls on my 360, so maybe you're already able to do that. As long as parents have the ability to make decisions for their kids without there being an end run around their decision through the store or Live, I'm good. Indeed, I think adult content in games should be expanded once and if parents are able to restrict their kids' access to it.

I'm pretty sure that parents can set the level of content that they allow an XBOX 360 to play. There are also a few hoops that need to be jumped through before they can see the content. The first being purchasing the game. The next being getting MS Points (which CAN be bought in stores), but otherwise require a credit card. Still at the end of the day if the kids managed to get through ALL of this, their reward will be to see gratuitous violence and a penis. OBVIOULSY the penis is not the biggest problem. If parents are cool with the violence, then they'll have to accept the penis.

Any semi-responsible parent might at least take the time to look up any game that their kids wants to play... Or at least play with them a little to make sure that they consider the content to be acceptable.

[jpc_theoneandonly]

Oh come on. It is kind of funny. The tip is not that detailed. Unless it is an uncircumcised penis. Either way, no big deal. I find it humorous.

[Generation ABXY]

It didn’t seem that bad...up until the end. Mind you, I’m not offended by it; I just didn’t much see the point, especially considering how they were handling it up until that point, with the swift cutaways and such (or, maybe, that was the joke or political statement). Really, I’ll think of it as a nonissue until someone calls Rockstar on it and brings down the overly-sensitive, scrutinizing microscope on the medium as a whole – that’s when it will affect me, and that’s when I may feel differently about this.

[Disgustipated]

OMG A PENIS NO WAY

wtf

[Johan]

I'd like to add that I'm much more interested in being told what is in a game, as in a fair and direct rating of a game and its content so I can make an educated/informed choice on purchasing it, than I am with what that actual content is. I can tolerate a lot "out there" in the marketplace, as long as I'm told up front what is "in there" before I buy it.

It just seems logical to me. I don't really care what games others choose to play; you're free to play them. I just like to know what's in there for myself and my family.

I don't even own GTA IV, mainly because I wasn't interested in the premise of the game. I see no reason others shouldn't be able to play it and enjoy it, however. Hope this DLC is fun for those who dive in.

[Narradisall]

Meh, its doesn't bother me, although I've never held Rockstar to be champions of serious storytelling even with so many people harping on about it in GTA4.

Still I'm hardly going to light the torches up over this (I'm sure plenty will), even if it was male or female nudity its digital and its not like people playing this don't have one or the other!

[Maskatron]

See the thing is, up to this point the GTA games have been pretty wholesome. I mean, these are games that let you get health by picking up street hookers, then regain the money you paid them by beating them to death. And you have some cops following you? Machine gun them bitches!

But yeah, penis bad. For shame, Rockstar!

[Kelegacy]

For those of you who don't mind seeing a penis, please check your PMs.

[Voodoo]

If they make controversy over this, what have they got to say about Forgetting Sarah Marshall or Zack and Miri make a Porno? Wouldn't treating games differently than treating movies be a bit of a disservice if not outright targeted criticism?

[DoctorFinger]

Ok, is anybody in this thread arguing that this is awful/heinous/wrong?

The worst statement I saw came from me, and it was more annoyance with Rockstar's martyr mentality than anything else. If/When the condemnations start coming in, then we can act on them. But until then we're collectively getting outraged over absolutely nothing.

[headhunter228]

Suffice it to say that we live in a permissive society. People just don't care that all their games/movies are all sex, drugs, and more sex. I have never picked up a GTA game, and I certainly don't intend to. Crap like this just make me want to break out my old NES and remember when games were fun.

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

[National Kato]

But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

How is this wrong? Please help me understand. You have a Mature title with ESRB warnings about all the objectionable content. How again is this wrong? And why would you be showing this to your kids??

[DangerousDaze]

Full frontal nudity? Yes I'd do it, if it was valid. Or if the money was valid, and if it were a very small part.

[Morangie]

You're misreading me. In order to clearly see a vagina, the woman pretty much has to display it to you. They don't hang out like man danglies do. A nude woman (especially unshaven) doesn't have the same visual impact unless she goes out of her way to spread her legs or turn around and bend over.

I'm talking camera angles, not societal roles.

Unless all the guys you know wear mini skirts with no underwear, someone still has to want to display that cock & balls for you to see it.

[Bone]

Suffice it to say that we live in a permissive society. People just don't care that all their games/movies are all sex, drugs, and more sex. I have never picked up a GTA game, and I certainly don't intend to. Crap like this just make me want to break out my old NES and remember when games were fun.

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

You, sir, are wrong. Unless you intend to buy your kids T & M rated games, there is no more reason for them to see this than there is for them to see an R or X rated movie.

GTA IV was fun to me and I've been playing games since Pong. There was an actual storyline, and I found it compelling enough to complete. Those who didn't... didn't. That's their prerogative as adults.

[MosBen]

Philonious, as crazy as I think it is, there are surely parent's out there that think violence is ok but nudity is not. I just want to make sure that those people have the ability to raise their children in the clearly crazy way of their choosing. From what you said though, it sounds like there's at least something in the 360 software that could be what I'm thinking of. I don't know if it's quite as robust as what I'm suggesting (that a parent could block downloadable content alltogether, by rating, or even a specific piece of content), but it's good that there's something.

My feeling is that the more the industry does to keep adult content out of kids' hands, the more they can push the envelope for adults. Not that I particularly care about the envelope being pushed, but it's just nice to have an industry that can try new things if it wants to.

[Morangie]

Suffice it to say that we live in a permissive society. People just don't care that all their games/movies are all sex, drugs, and more sex. I have never picked up a GTA game, and I certainly don't intend to. Crap like this just make me want to break out my old NES and remember when games were fun.

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

So checking your recent posts, I see you've played CoD2. The "line" should be drawn at one fake floppy dick but not at a real conflict that caused the suffering and deaths of millions of people?

[Bone]

Those Nazis died with their pants on!

We've become so accustomed to censorship that I think we all believe cavemen wore loincloths. I wish we could loosen the collective anus of our society enough to accept nudity without thinking it's there for any particular reason other than people are born that way.

[Kelegacy]

Suffice it to say that we live in a permissive society. People just don't care that all their games/movies are all sex, drugs, and more sex. I have never picked up a GTA game, and I certainly don't intend to. Crap like this just make me want to break out my old NES and remember when games were fun.

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.


1. GTA is fun. I love the series.
2. Your kid shouldn't be seeing this anyway. Unless he was 17. That's what ratings are for.
3. I don't understand why people are FOR censorship in an mature rated piece of entertainment. Craving censorship is opening the door for trouble. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Just like adult book stores. If you are against them, don't go in them.

I am going to be a father in a few months, and I hope for an opposite future than yourself. Because I'll be a father, a dad, a PARENT, I don't have to be afraid of this stuff harming my kids. Because I'll be involved, because I'll be a good parent. My seven year old won't be playing GTA. Some media is meant for children. Some isn't. When he's not around, I'll be watching R rated films, playing M rated games. I won't be handcuffed exclusively to the Wiggles or whatever just becasue I'm a dad. He'll have his stuff, I'll have mine.

I seriously doubt a flacid penis is going to harm any child. And if they are playing GTA, a penis should be the least of your worries.

[zarathstra]

Suffice it to say that we live in a permissive society. People just don't care that all their games/movies are all sex, drugs, and more sex. I have never picked up a GTA game, and I certainly don't intend to. Crap like this just make me want to break out my old NES and remember when games were fun.

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

If you don't want you kids exposed to games like GTA IV and its DLC, then don't buy it for them. There. That was easy. I'm sure you won't be buying them R rated movies until you think they're ready for it either. How is this different?

You could even go farther than that. Don't buy cable or an internet subscription. That way, only content you approve can come into your house, and adults in other houses can purchase games with e-junk if they choose.

[JayVe]

I see my own dick every day. No big whoop. The only thing dirty about male nudity is how prude our society is.

[Rock Bandit]

Dude needs to trim that shit. Seriously, it looked like a tube worm sticking out of a vulture's nest.

[Kelegacy]

I see my own dick every day. No big whoop. The only thing dirty about male nudity is how prude our society is.

I have started to develop a gut, so I don't get to see mine everyday anymore. :(

[GAThrawn]

Yep. It's a penis.

Yes. Yes it was a penis.

Am I the only one that actually WATCHED that scene? It actually fit the scene and character, it wasn't being used for over the top comedy, and the actual nudity is maybe 4 seconds total.

I kind of agree...

This is all part of the inevitable progression of media. Rockstar just beat everyone to the punch if they didn't someone else would've eventually done it... this sort argument would ensue... people will get bored of it... someone else will try pushing the boundary farther... the argument will intensify... we'll be bombarded nudity and whatever else... some, will get bored with it and think it's mundane... others will declare world war 4....

All of this has happened before and will again.

[JayVe]

This is all part of the inevitable progression of media. Rockstar just beat everyone to the punch if they didn't someone else would've eventually done it... this sort argument would ensue... people will get bored of it... someone else will try pushing the boundary farther... the argument will intensify... we'll be bombarded nudity and whatever else... some, will get bored with it and think it's mundane... others will declare world war 4....

All of this has happened before and will again.

Welcome to CoG!

[violent]

I'll take nudity over violence any day.

[menage]

I'll take nudity over violence any day.

I see a big gap in the market here. Shame you can't shoot anyone with tits.

Also, why aren't you called nude then:D

[txshurricane]

Is this really about censorship? Because I can think of a lot of other things that are censored that shouldn't be, and they would involve images much less...disgusting.

Why is it that so many people gripe when a game is censored, but seek to defend them when they're targeted by stinkers like Jack Thompson? How many times did we hear the gaming community scream about Hot Coffee and Nude Sims being user-created modifications, and yet now that Mr. Helmet shows up in a game, the same people are arguing that this should be mainstream? In fact, why even waste our time trying to explain the ESRB ratings system to people who sue?

I haven't read the whole thread...not looking at anyone's post in particular. Just musing again. I don't care one way or the other...would be nice to have a standard of normalcy between gamers and the rest of local society, though. Maybe some day...

...nah.

[violent]

I see a big gap in the market here. Shame you can't shoot anyone with tits.

Also, why aren't you called nude then:D

God of War did it and it did it well methinks.

And calling myself nude would subject me to too many questions I would be unwilling to answer.

[MosBen]

JayVe, maybe *YOUR* penis isn't a big deal...;-)

txshurricane, I don't understand your distinction between the gaming community's reaction to Hot Coffee and this. Are you saying that the gaming community didn't defend hot coffee but is defending this? I seem to remember most people within the gaming community arguing pretty much what we're seeing here. The only disctinction I can remember is that some in the gaming community believed Rockstar was wrong to not disclose the presence of the nudity to the ESRB during the review process. Even so, the arguments about nudity in games are pretty consistent to my memory.

And am I the only one who isn't sure if headhunter228 is being genuine or is pulling a Colbert?

[zarathstra]

Is this really about censorship? Because I can think of a lot of other things that are censored that shouldn't be, and they would involve images much less...disgusting.

Why is it that so many people gripe when a game is censored, but seek to defend them when they're targeted by stinkers like Jack Thompson? How many times did we hear the gaming community scream about Hot Coffee and Nude Sims being user-created modifications, and yet now that Mr. Helmet shows up in a game, the same people are arguing that this should be mainstream? In fact, why even waste our time trying to explain the ESRB ratings system to people who sue?

I haven't read the whole thread...not looking at anyone's post in particular. Just musing again. I don't care one way or the other...would be nice to have a standard of normalcy between gamers and the rest of local society, though. Maybe some day...

...nah.

I think these are different situations. In the Hot Coffee/Nude Sims situation, the developer was being raked over the coals for something that wasn't their fault: someone illegally modified their product to do something it wasn't intended to do when it was published. People were throwing all kinds of threats and invectives at the wrong people, and those of us who knew what was going on were pissed that people were screaming about:

1. Something that wasn't that big a deal in the first place, and

2. Yelling at the wrong people anyway.

This is different. People are pissed because, in a game that features over the top violence, you get to see e-wang for a few seconds. I find that ironic. I also don't think e-wang is a big deal, and that a game aimed at an adult audience should be able to feature it without people getting pissy.

[txshurricane]

I just find it ironic that so many gamers are quick to use the ESRB ratings system and the actual content of the game (see: Mass Effect) when the game is being harpooned by the media and legal figures...but when other gamers have anything to say about it, the attitude is suddenly, "So what? You're a prude."
Sure, Fox News misrepresented GTA IV and Mass Effect...but for some reason, Geoff Keighley and thousands of gamers and bloggers decided to defend the game instead of pushing the art quality and freedom of expression that we apparently wish was more evident in America.

So if "you're a prude" won't fly with a judge in a civil lawsuit, why should it be the justification among the consumers (i.e. gamers)?

Of course, comparing CoGers to other game communities is sometimes like comparing apples to oranges...so don't necessarily take my comments as 100% pertaining to the opinions in this thread.

[Bone]

I just find it ironic that so many gamers are quick to use the ESRB ratings system and the actual content of the game (see: Mass Effect) when the game is being harpooned by the media and legal figures...but when other gamers have anything to say about it, the attitude is suddenly, "So what? You're a prude."
Sure, Fox News misrepresented GTA IV and Mass Effect...but for some reason, Geoff Keighley and thousands of gamers and bloggers decided to defend the game instead of pushing the art quality and freedom of expression that we apparently wish was more evident in America.

So if "you're a prude" won't fly with a judge in a civil lawsuit, why should it be the justification among the consumers (i.e. gamers)?

Of course, comparing CoGers to other game communities is sometimes like comparing apples to oranges...so don't necessarily take my comments as 100% pertaining to the opinions in this thread.
Your argument just seems fragmented. I think that defending Rockstar against Hot Coffee (user-created content going beyond the game's rating) is a totally different scenario than defending Mass Effect from its ridiculous detractors (because it was original content, and within the context of the game's rating).

Actually, I really can't explain what your argument is. Can you try to clarify it for us? We have ratings systems so that "prudes" can avoid content they are likely to object to.

[Kelegacy]

Dude needs to trim that shit. Seriously, it looked like a tube worm sticking out of a vulture's nest.

I laughed, at work.

And also, your avatar is the bomb. It took me a few seconds to recall the game, but man...what a game it was.

XBLA re-release, STAT.

[txshurricane]

Your argument just seems fragmented. I think that defending Rockstar against Hot Coffee (user-created content going beyond the game's rating) is a totally different scenario than defending Mass Effect from its ridiculous detractors (because it was original content, and within the context of the game's rating).

Actually, I really can't explain what your argument is. Can you try to clarify it for us? We have ratings systems so that "prudes" can avoid content they are likely to object to.
In each case, the attacks against each game were unwarranted.

My question is: why even promote ratings system, if everyone who doesn't want to see male nudity is a "prude"?

[Morangie]

I just find it ironic that so many gamers are quick to use the ESRB ratings system and the actual content of the game (see: Mass Effect) when the game is being harpooned by the media and legal figures...but when other gamers have anything to say about it, the attitude is suddenly, "So what? You're a prude."
Sure, Fox News misrepresented GTA IV and Mass Effect...but for some reason, Geoff Keighley and thousands of gamers and bloggers decided to defend the game instead of pushing the art quality and freedom of expression that we apparently wish was more evident in America.

Do you really see no difference between correcting blatent lies in one case and talking about what is actually there in another?

In each case, the attacks against each game were unwarranted.

My question is: why even promote ratings system, if everyone who doesn't want to see male nudity is a "prude"?

The ratings systems have to be promoted because vast, vast numbers of people are morons.

[zarathstra]

In each case, the attacks against each game were unwarranted.

My question is: why even promote ratings system, if everyone who doesn't want to see male nudity is a "prude"?

I think people who object to male nudity in a game that says it has nudity on the outside should be more careful about future purchases. They may or may not be prudes, but no one is forcing anyone to buy these games, and any objectionable content is helpfully printed on the box.

[txshurricane]

Do you really see no difference between correcting blatent lies in one case and talking about what is actually there in another?
You're completely skipping my point so that you can argue another. I don't care WHAT the attack against the game was: the retaliation from gamers was the exact same. Read my post again...if it's not clear, then it's my fault for bad logic, and you can ignore it.

The ratings systems have to be promoted because vast, vast numbers of people are morons.
Okay, I agree with you there. Ratings should be understood. So then I take it that since you are gung-ho about the ESRB ratings system...censorship is okay as long as it is for the sake of lower-rated games for the prudes?

[roboninja]

In each case, the attacks against each game were unwarranted.

My question is: why even promote ratings system, if everyone who doesn't want to see male nudity is a "prude"?

I really do not see how the term prude has anything whatsoever to do with a ratings system. A ratings system is prefect for a prude, as it lets them know what is in the game before they play it. Unless you are using a new definition of prude that requires censorship, making sure no one else sees the male nudity.

[Bone]

In each case, the attacks against each game were unwarranted.

My question is: why even promote ratings system, if everyone who doesn't want to see male nudity is a "prude"?
That question seems totally unrelated to your original points, which is why I was so confused. I'll try to answer.

We can try to establish a baseline, even if we don't agree across the board, as to what constitutes material appropriate for children, teens, and adults. Then we can try to assign games to this scale, hopefully not too arbitrarily, and hence avoid silly lawsuits and sillier "exposés" about the nature of material that was already appropriately filed into an age-specific slot.

Now, I don't think that not wanting to see a penis automatically makes you a prude. Maybe you just don't want to see it. And nobody's making you look at it. But I think that if you are offended by its presence in a mature-rated game, you might be a prude. Because we have agreed on a rating system that defines where you might see such a thing, your outrage is likely misplaced due to willful ignorance of the ratings system.

[Johan]

I take offense at the idea that because some of YOU approve of something, others who wouldn't are obviously [insert your insult of choice here]. That's a moronic line of hypocritical, illogical, irrational crap right there.

The ratings system is there specifically so that EVERYONE has the opportunity, and responsibility, to be informed regarding the content of the media they purchase/consume. This is about choice, and if some of you are intimating that others should just shut the hell up and accept what YOU deem acceptable, I'm going to call it for what it is, which is hypocrisy.

This is about informed choice. They can put whatever they want in the game, as long as they are up front and honest about the content, so I can make an informed choice for my family and myself. Screw ANYONE who says I don't have THAT basic right. I'll be damned if I'm going to live by someone else's standards.

[zarathstra]

Okay, I agree with you there. Ratings should be understood. So then I take it that since you are gung-ho about the ESRB ratings system...censorship is okay as long as it is for the sake of lower-rated games for the prudes?

Huh? I think the censorship people are talking about is the demand to remove content people feel is objectionable from games that are rated for adults, and have that content printed clearly on the label. Its not really censorship if the developer chooses to produce a lower rated game.

[roboninja]

Uh-oh, Johan's starting to talk in CAPS :p

[Johan]

Uh-oh, Johan's starting to talk in CAPS :p

:D

That's because others are starting to talk in STUPID!

[National Kato]

A thread without a miffed Johan wouldn't be any sort of thread at all!

[Bone]

I take offense at the idea that because some of YOU approve of something, others who wouldn't are obviously [insert your insult of choice here]. That's a moronic line of hypocritical, illogical, irrational crap right there.

The ratings system is there specifically so that EVERYONE has the opportunity, and responsibility, to be informed regarding the content of the media they purchase/consume. This is about choice, and if some of you are intimating that others should just shut the hell up and accept what YOU deem acceptable, I'm going to call it for what it is, which is hypocrisy.

This is about informed choice. They can put whatever they want in the game, as long as they are up front and honest about the content, so I can make an informed choice for my family and myself. Screw ANYONE who says I don't have THAT basic right. I'll be damned if I'm going to live by someone else's standards.
Did I miss a post where it was suggested we do away with all ratings standards?

[txshurricane]

I really do not see how the term prude has anything whatsoever to do with a ratings system. A ratings system is prefect for a prude, as it lets them know what is in the game before they play it. Unless you are using a new definition of prude that requires censorship, making sure no one else sees the male nudity.
No, that would be a commie. :)

That question seems totally unrelated to your original points, which is why I was so confused. I'll try to answer.

We can try to establish a baseline, even if we don't agree across the board, as to what constitutes material appropriate for children, teens, and adults. Then we can try to assign games to this scale, hopefully not too arbitrarily, and hence avoid silly lawsuits and sillier "exposés" about the nature of material that was already appropriately filed into an age-specific slot.

Now, I don't think that not wanting to see a penis automatically makes you a prude. Maybe you just don't want to see it. And nobody's making you look at it. But I think that if you are offended by its presence in a mature-rated game, you might be a prude. Because we have agreed on a rating system that defines where you might see such a thing, your outrage is likely misplaced due to willful ignorance of the ratings system.
Hopefully, by "you", you mean in a general sense. I'm not wearing a t-shirt nor armband here...just providing some thoughts that might be worth mulling over.

Last night, I had a healthy Live Party conversation with a few CoG members, wherein at least one was preaching about how he wants to see more games and movies with full frontal nudity (a convo sparked by this very topic).
I guess that tied in with this topic provides a lot of escaping thoughts that don't really make sense to one topic or the other...

My brain is starting to hurt. I'm going to go lie down now.

[torrefaction]

Rarely do I agree so strongly with Johan.

1.)This shouldn't be an issue, civilly.
2.)Nudity is stupidly more reviled than violence.
3.)Parents (And anyone else really) should know what maturity level to expect from ANY game.

[Johan]

Did I miss a post where it was suggested we do away with all ratings standards?

No, but you must have missed the dozens of posts where people on both sides of this non-issue are telling the other side that they are right, the other side is wrong, and this content is obviously fine/horrible [take your pick].

Frankly, this is a non-issue and I'm tired of people declaring what is acceptable or unacceptable in a game, and why that should be so damned patently obvious to others all across the world. People are different, with different values and standards. News at 10. And 11. And infinity...

Up-front information about content + informed choice by consumer = everyone can shut up and buy or not buy.

And people say I'm the one who's nuts around here! :D

[Bone]

Hopefully, by "you", you mean in a general sense. I'm not wearing a t-shirt nor armband here...just providing some thoughts that might be worth mulling over.Yes, I meant the royal "you". Anyone with objections to content that was already rated properly (again, we can debate the merits of the current ratings system at another location).


Last night, I had a healthy Live Party conversation with a few CoG members, wherein at least one was preaching about how he wants to see more games and movies with full frontal nudity (a convo sparked by this very topic).
And I don't see a problem with it as long as parents are given the tools to understand the content within. Now, whether these so-called parents will use these tools, or abscond their duties as parents and instead rely on courts to do their parenting, is another issue altogether.

[violent]

This is why I don't care so much about stuff. It's much easier on the brain.

[zarathstra]

To expand on Johan's point (whodatunkit?) when people show up on CNN or Fox News to object to these games, or to specific content, they often demand that they be removed, or that they not appear at all. That is censorship. that is deciding that because you think certain content is objectionable, it should be removed completely. not that warning labels should be put on the cover. not that a rating exist that lets people know that the content is present, but that it shouldn't exist. If the developer chooses not to put that content in, and then receives a lower rating, good for them, but I really don;t want to Jack Thompsons of the world deciding what content is legal and what isn't.

This is exactly what happened to the comic book industry back in the 50's. People decided that since "comics were for kids", no one could publish any comics with any material remotely objectionable. Not that the adult themed books had to have warning labels, not that a rating system had to be developed, but that no comic book could contain them PERIOD. The industry censored itself before the government could intervene, because the government was minutes away from doing just that.

Even today, despite decades of evidence to the contrary, people think of comic books as kiddie material. The same way they still think of video games as being for kids, even though a lot of them aren't.

You don't want to see e-wang? Fine, i can understand that. Heed the warning label on the box. You don't want you kids to see e-wang? Don't buy them a game designed for adults.

until people understand that video games are a MEDIUM, like books, TV and movies, and not a toy for kids, we live under the constant threat of Frederic Wertham (or a sane Jack Thompson) getting the medium we all love turned into whitewashed kiddie fest.

[Johan]

video games are a MEDIUM, like books, TV and movies, and not a toy for kids

That's right! People just need to take some personal responsibility for their choices, as well, in what they buy/read/watch/play/etc..

I'm unconcerned, however, about governmental intervention in games. Far too many people in their 30's and 40's grew up as gamers, are voters, and are politically active. There may be occasional regional/localized problems, but generally speaking, I think we're in good shape.

Also, I'm becoming more and more of a libertarian with each passing day, not because I lack standards, but because I want the freedom to impose my own upon myself, and not have others impose theirs upon me. It's the only logical place for me to go if I want that freedom myself.

[Smoof]

Someone needs to draw the line. When I eventually become a father, I certainly don't want to expose my kids to this kind of stuff. Granted, if I wanted to completely cut them off from everything I found objectionable, I'd have to lock them in a closet until they were 40. But still, this is wrong, and I hope this pisses off enough people to see to it that something like this never happens again.

Question: Do you intend to make sure your children always hide their genitals from themselves so they're not infiltrated by the evil of their very own "naughty bits"?

[txshurricane]

Yes, I meant the royal "you". Anyone with objections to content that was already rated properly (again, we can debate the merits of the current ratings system at another location).
That post where I objected to the content? Yeah, that one fell in the toilet after you pulled it...never mind, you get the point.

And I don't see a problem with it as long as parents are given the tools to understand the content within. Now, whether these so-called parents will use these tools, or abscond their duties as parents and instead rely on courts to do their parenting, is another issue altogether.
Parenting isn't the toughest task ever, but it isn't the cakewalk some people make it out to be. So-called "bad" parenting is blamed for everything.
I would hope that people who object do so because they don't want dicks in their video games...has nothing to do with children.

[EternalGamer]

Is this really about censorship? Because I can think of a lot of other things that are censored that shouldn't be, and they would involve images much less...disgusting.


You are disgusted by the sight of a penis? Are you a lesbian or just a guy that closes his eyes every time he takes a piss or steps into the shower. This is not even a sexual explicit scene. It is just a naked dude who just finished a massage.

I don't understand people who find mere images of parts of the human anatomy in and of themselves sick, disgusting, immoral etc.

[Morangie]

Okay, I agree with you there. Ratings should be understood. So then I take it that since you are gung-ho about the ESRB ratings system...censorship is okay as long as it is for the sake of lower-rated games for the prudes?

No, censorship is not ok. I'm not sure where you got that from. A rating system should be there so that people can see what content a game/movie has and then make up their own mind about whether they want to see that.

Any personal opinion anyone may have on the sort of person who would avoid something based on four seconds of digital dick is unrelated to the above point.

[zarathstra]

Parenting isn't the toughest task ever, but it isn't the cakewalk some people make it out to be. So-called "bad" parenting is blamed for everything.
I would hope that people who object do so because they don't want dicks in their video games...has nothing to do with children.

Then they should purchase e-wang free video games. I don't see a problem here. If you object to the content of a book, movie, video game, etc, then DO NOT PURCHASE IT.

[EternalGamer]

We all know that 13 year old boys shouldn't play GTAIV. One brief image of a penis is probably one of the least objectionable things in the game.

However, I think about all the high pitched little kids on Xbox Live who have called me a "Nigger" and a "faggot homo" all those times, I have admit that I get a bit of a kick out of the idea that a these immature homophobic teens (who again, shouldn't be playing this game anyway) will have to learn to do deal with seeing this image in the game.

[Smoof]

This is not what I'm saying at all.

You still really haven't clarified what you meant. Why is it difficult to show a naked woman in a non-pornographic context? Assuming you have a naked man and a naked women standing in front of a camera, doing nothing but standing their, the woman is automatically more sexualized and pornographic than a man?

[violent]

I once saw a mother and father walk out of Best Buy with their arms around each others waists happy to see their son of no more than 10 happily hopping around with his new copy of Vice City. Way I see it, Rockstar did nothing wrong.

[zarathstra]

You still really haven't clarified what you meant. Why is it difficult to show a naked woman in a non-pornographic context? Assuming you have a naked man and a naked women standing in front of a camera, doing nothing but standing their, the woman is automatically more sexualized and pornographic than a man?

I think he was saying that you can't actually see any vagoo if a woman is standing in front of you. In order to see it, she'd have to be splayed out or something.

[txshurricane]

You are disgusted by the sight of a penis? Are you a lesbian or just a guy that closes his eyes every time he takes a piss or steps into the shower. This is not even a sexual explicit scene. It is just a naked dude who just finished a massage.

I don't understand people who find mere images of parts of the human anatomy in and of themselves sick, disgusting, immoral etc.
Do you stop on the freeway and look at the remains of car wreck victims? There are some things that are just not normal...moral or not. I suppose if your dad or your roommate walked around the house naked all the time, it's no big deal. In fact, why don't you start a nudist Colony (of Gamers)?

We all know that 13 year old boys shouldn't play GTAIV. One brief image of a penis is probably one of the least objectionable things in the game.
Wait a minute: why shouldn't a 13-year-old play GTA IV? Shouldn't that be up to the parents?

[Spectre-7]

You still really haven't clarified what you meant. Why is it difficult to show a naked woman in a non-pornographic context? Assuming you have a naked man and a naked women standing in front of a camera, doing nothing but standing their, the woman is automatically more sexualized and pornographic than a man?

I believe his point was that, given a nude male and female standing side-by-side, the male's genitals are more outwardly visible. Due to matters of simple anatomy, it's rather difficult to get a clear view of female outer genitalia unless they are explicitly presented, as happens in either a spread-eagle or fully bent over position.

[Telefrog]

Do you stop on the freeway and look at the remains of car wreck victims? There are some things that are just not normal...moral or not. I suppose if your dad or your roommate walked around the house naked all the time, it's no big deal. In fact, why don't you start a nudist Colony (of Gamers)?

Wait. So, a penis is no longer... Normal? :eek:

[Spectre-7]

Wait. So, a penis is no longer... Normal? :eek:

That would seem to lend credence to the theory that it's full of demons, like my mother always taught me.

[txshurricane]

Wait. So, a penis is no longer... Normal? :eek:

That would seem to lend credence to the theory that it's full of demons, like my mother always taught me.

I guess that depends on how the spawns turn out...

A bare penis is not normal, no...not at my house. Do you wear pants? I'm willing to bet that you at least wear a skirt...pants probably, too.

[Codicier]

I guess that depends on how the spawns turn out...

A bare penis is not normal, no...not at my house. Do you wear pants? I'm willing to bet that you at least wear a skirt...pants probably, too.

Do you shoot people in the face at your house?

[Wedge]

That would seem to lend credence to the theory that it's full of demons, like my mother always taught me.

And you should never have sex, because then the demons and the pussy troll get together and plan the End of the Earth.

[Wedge]

Do you shoot people in the face at your house?

I'm more curious as to where he hides all the dead hookers.

[txshurricane]

Do you shoot people in the face at your house?

Naw, I give them a sporting chance. If they show up with a gun, then yes, I do. Want to see?

http://www.co-optimus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7187#p7187

[zarathstra]

Naw, I give them a sporting chance. If they show up with a gun, then yes, I do. Want to see?

http://www.co-optimus.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=7187#p7187

Seriously dude, nothing that happens in that game is normal, unless your normal day consists of car jackings, shoot outs with the police, hooker murder, and meeting with Congressmen in massage parlors. Why is an abnormality involving wang worse than any of the others?

[Bone]

That post where I objected to the content? Yeah, that one fell in the toilet after you pulled it...never mind, you get the point. I think you missed mine. The royal you is not you, but was meant to cover any person who objects to rated content... in effect, people who demand censorship of something that is already regulated to keep it out of the hands of youth. So no, I wasn't referring to you.

You're not familiar with the "royal" version of words, and you're an editor?


A bare penis is not normal, no...not at my house. Do you wear pants? I'm willing to bet that you at least wear a skirt...pants probably, too.I think at this point I may safely call you a prude. I saw both of my parents exiting the shower at times, and other times getting out of bed without clothes. And no harm was done, and nobody taught me to be ashamed of my normal parts, that most people have one set of (and sometimes both!).

If you are a Puritan you might want to avoid video games altogether.

[txshurricane]

Seriously dude, nothing that happens in that game is normal, unless your normal day consists of car jackings, shoot outs with the police, hooker murder, and meeting with Congressmen in massage parlors. Why is an abnormality involving wang worse than any of the others?
I never said it was worse... I just don't prefer it. Call me shallow, go ahead. I'll speak with my wallet, and when 20,000 more developers get laid off, everyone will cry for them except the ones who decided that pixelated dicks isn't really that funny. Or realistic.

As for it being normal...that was purely in response to Telefrog. You two can hash that "reality vs GTA" part out on your own.

[txshurricane]

I think you missed mine. The royal you is not you, but was meant to cover any person who objects to rated content... in effect, people who demand censorship of something that is already regulated to keep it out of the hands of youth. So no, I wasn't referring to you.

You're not familiar with the "royal" version of words, and you're an editor?

I think at this point I may safely call you a prude. I saw both of my parents exiting the shower at times, and other times getting out of bed without clothes. And no harm was done, and nobody taught me to be ashamed of my normal parts, that most people have one set of (and sometimes both!).

If you are a Puritan you might want to avoid video games altogether.
Hey, there's that attitude I was talking about before. Very dismissive. Very noble.

Seems to me the focus is less on promoting ratings awareness and more on making sure you get as much attention as possible by jumping in the conga line with Rockstar. Funny how a "meh" game becomes revolutionary by the addition of male genitalia.

On a side note: I'd be really scared to see your porn collection...

[EternalGamer]

I never said it was worse... I just don't prefer it. Call me shallow, go ahead. I'll speak with my wallet, and when 20,000 more developers get laid off, everyone will cry for them except the ones who decided that pixelated dicks isn't really that funny. Or realistic.
.

Fuck. I actually was hugely disappointed with GTA4 and the hype machine. And I had decided there was nothing Rockstar could do to make me buy this DLC. But now I'm going to buy it.

So congrats, you may "vote with your wallet," but your cultural war rhetoric just convinced me to buy the damn thing. So Rockstar should be thankful to you, you just sold a an extra copy of their DLC that you find so objectionable.

You would think those of a puritanical mindset would have learned from the Catholic Legion of Decency. That group made many a film producer rich because all their tirades about the immorality in entertainment made ticket sales go up.

Come to think of it, are you sure you aren't a PR plant for Rockstar's "20,000 developers"?

[Bone]

Hey, there's that attitude I was talking about before. Very dismissive. Very noble.

Seems to me the focus is less on promoting ratings awareness and more on making sure you get as much attention as possible by jumping in the conga line with Rockstar. Funny how a "meh" game becomes revolutionary by the addition of male genitalia.You make no sense whatsoever. You come in here with some extremely poorly formed arguments, strung together with crazy glue, and can't hold a cohesive argument together. It gets shot down, and you respond by lumping people in with Rockstar fanboys? I said nothing of the sort.

It seems very hard to discuss matters with you when you can't grasp the nature of the argument nor explain where you're coming from. You don't get the concept of the "royal" you and you also assert that a penis is not normal. If you want to talk about attitudes, check yours first. I really can't believe you represent editorship at Co-Optimus... I've come to expect better from my dealings with Nick.

[violent]

Hey, there's that attitude I was talking about before. Very dismissive. Very noble.

Seems to me the focus is less on promoting ratings awareness and more on making sure you get as much attention as possible by jumping in the conga line with Rockstar. Funny how a "meh" game becomes revolutionary by the addition of male genitalia.

On a side note: I'd be really scared to see your porn collection...

While the move may be one purely for controversy (which I am against), the idea that it pushes back the idea that the human body is "dirty" is a positive move. I'll live with the shallow move if it pushes us in the right direction.

For the record, my belief is that the naked body does not equal sex.

[torrefaction]

Do you stop on the freeway and look at the remains of car wreck victims? There are some things that are just not normal...moral or not. I suppose if your dad or your roommate walked around the house naked all the time, it's no big deal. In fact, why don't you start a nudist Colony (of Gamers)?


Holy crap. Did you just compare a penis to the MANGLED BODIES OF DEAD PEOPLE?

Seriously? Stop, step back, and think about what is truly normal. Think about the way you come into the world. Oh, right. Naked.

With a penis.

[Spectre-7]

Hey, there's that attitude I was talking about before. Very dismissive. Very noble.

Seems to me the focus is less on promoting ratings awareness and more on making sure you get as much attention as possible by jumping in the conga line with Rockstar. Funny how a "meh" game becomes revolutionary by the addition of male genitalia.

On a side note: I'd be really scared to see your porn collection...

This might be kind of a personal question, but do you smoke crack? I ask because your post seems to have absolutely no relation to Bone's what-so-ever.

If so, you should probably look into rehab. That shit's bad for you.

[roboninja]

This is the most meandering, rambling argument ever, and I have read a lot of this Internet thing. Now my head hurts.

[violent]

This is the most meandering, rambling argument ever, and I have read a lot of this Internet thing. Now my head hurts.

Quiet you. We're making the internet better. Better than what? I haven't figured that part out yet. But you gotta admit, it is rather informative even if not of the actual subject being discussed.

[txshurricane]

Fuck. I actually was hugely disappointed with GTA4 and the hype machine. And I had decided there was nothing Rockstar could do to make me buy this DLC. But now I'm going to buy it.

So congrats, you may "vote with your wallet," but your cultural war rhetoric just convinced me to buy the damn thing. So Rockstar should be thankful to you, you just sold a an extra copy of their DLC that you find so objectionable.

You would think those of a puritanical mindset would have learned from the Catholic Legion of Decency. That group made many a film producer rich because all their tirades about the immorality in entertainment made ticket sales go up.

Come to think of it, are you sure you aren't a Rockstar PR plant?
More power to you. :D

You make no sense whatsoever. You come in here with some extremely poorly formed arguments, strung together with crazy glue, and can't hold a cohesive argument together. It gets shot down, and you respond by lumping people in with Rockstar fanboys? I said nothing of the sort.

It seems very hard to discuss matters with you when you can't grasp the nature of the argument nor explain where you're coming from. You don't get the concept of the "royal" you and you also assert that a penis is not normal. If you want to talk about attitudes, check yours first. I really can't believe you represent editorship at Co-Optimus... I've come to expect better from my dealings with Nick.
txshurricane does not = bapenguin. Simple concept. Do you think I should be a doormat because I'm an editor at Co-Optimus? It would be a shame to think that someone other than myself fell out of your good graces because of something I wrote, and even more of a shame that it was because you disagreed purely from opinion.

It's so easy to say "you don't understand". Try being more coherent; it would do you worlds of good, and maybe could spare you some frustration in the future. Simpletons like me don't get the chance to debate with such powerful intellects very often, so go easy on me. I'm just a blogger in the midst of universally omniscient beings. ;)

[Bone]

Now I'm second-guessing my porn collection because I saw my dad's wang when I was a kid.

On another note, I really would love to see this Puritan's porn collection of ankle shots and exposed necks.

[Bone]

txshurricane does not = bapenguin. Simple concept. Do you think I should be a doormat because I'm an editor at Co-Optimus? It would be a shame to think that someone other than myself fell out of your good graces because of something I wrote, and even more of a shame that it was because you disagreed purely from opinion.I definitely understand you are no equal of Bap's. He has the ability to form coherent arguments, understands and uses proper English, and earned my respect even as we have disagreed over the years.


It's so easy to say "you don't understand". Try being more coherent; it would do you worlds of good, and maybe could spare you some frustration in the future. Simpletons like me don't get the chance to debate with such powerful intellects very often, so go easy on me. I'm just a blogger in the midst of universally omniscient beings. ;)It's not that you don't understand me; I fear, by reading your rants, you don't even understand yourself. How can you possibly make an effective argument when you're tripping up on your own words? And to be fair, I'm not the sharpest crayon in the pack- but you are really burying yourself here.

[txshurricane]

Now I'm second-guessing my porn collection because I saw my dad's wang when I was a kid.

On another note, I really would love to see this Puritan's porn collection of ankle shots and exposed necks.

That was before. I've moved on to knees and elbows, with the occasional ear-biting fetish.

Lighten up.

[Bone]

That was before. I've moved on to knees and elbows, with the occasional ear-biting fetish.

Lighten up.

You're the one who edited your own post to add the personal attack about my porn collection... based on the fact that I'd seen my parents naked as a child. Let's be fair here.

[Psykoboy2]

Puritan's porn

I google'd it.

There seems to be company called Puritan that distributes porn. It isn't too bad of a collection.

[txshurricane]

I definitely understand you are no equal of Bap's. He has the ability to form coherent arguments, understands and uses proper English, and earned my respect even as we have disagreed over the years.

It's not that you don't understand me, I fear, by reading your rants, you don't even understand yourself. How can you possibly make an effective argument when you're tripping up on your own words? And to be fair, I'm not the sharpest crayon in the pack- but you are really burying yourself here.

I'm having fun now. Statements have flown over both our heads alike. It's okay, though, because none of it matters tomorrow. GTA IV will still push the envelope, and you'll still have some fond memories of your parents. :D

In the meantime, you can practice your "don't like/don't buy" process with a dose of "don't like/don't read". Unless you decide that you're open to opinions other than yours, that is.

[txshurricane]

I google'd it.

There seems to be company called Puritan that distributes porn. It isn't too bad of a collection.

Any witchhunt reality scenes?

[Bone]

I'm having fun now. Statements have flown over both our heads alike. It's okay, though, because none of it matters tomorrow. GTA IV will still push the envelope, and you'll still have some fond memories of your parents. :D

In the meantime, you can practice your "don't like/don't buy" process with a dose of "don't like/don't read". Unless you decide that you're open to opinions other than yours, that is.
Your posts are so full of contradictions and hypocrisy, I'm amazed the Internet doesn't implode. I do have fond memories of my parents, because their genitals don't frighten me. They are good people and raised three healthy children with healthy attitudes about their bodies and sex. None of us are violent or sexually deviant.

For the record, I never said GTA IV pushed the envelope- you continue to put words into my mouth and then argue as if I said them. If you want to argue with yourself, you should continue this debate in Microsoft Word. Good day to you, sir.

[MosBen]

Edit: I got caught up in some work and my response to txshurricane was no longer necessary.

I think that everyone should just assume TheFlyingOrc had stopped with saying that female genitalia are harder to display, rather than including the "in a non-pornographic context" bit. That last bit is what I think got everyone wound up and I really don't think it's necessary to make the point that he seems to have intended to make. The pornographic bit brings up all kinds of possible sexist meanings that really aren't necessary to what I think was his point.

[txshurricane]

For the record, I never said GTA IV pushed the envelope- you continue to put words into my mouth and then argue as if I said them.
I suppose when there are only two sides to a debate, points from each side get lumped onto all of the participants. Likewise, I never said anything about censoring games...I just like to see people who object have their opinion openly.

I definitely understand you are no equal of Bap's. He has the ability to form coherent arguments, understands and uses proper English, and earned my respect even as we have disagreed over the years.
Give it time. I'm still new to the scene. My parents live in Austin. I'll be in town March 28th, and I'd be glad to buy you and your date/spouse dinner in the name of civility.

[torrefaction]

I think it's funny that hurricane is insinuating Bone is the pervert, when penis == dead body to hurricane.

I'm way more terrified of HIS porn collection. Must resemble rotten.com.

[Bone]

Give it time. I'm still new to the scene. My parents live in Austin. I'll be in town March 28th, and I'd be glad to buy you and your date/spouse dinner in the name of civility.

March 28th, I'll be playing a show at a venue called Ruta Maya in Austin. You are welcome to come and introduce yourself and we can pretend this debacle never happened. Be forewarned, although we are basically family-friendly funk and R&B, some of our songs deal with human sexuality such as our cover of Bill Withers' "Use Me" or our own "Way to Love Me" which does mention a girl's nether regions by way of clever metaphor. I would call our show "T-rated".

[Wedge]

I'm surprised you guys are feeding it.

[violent]

I'm surprised you guys are feeding it.

This is no ruse.

[MosBen]

And I agree with roboninja...

[Ghostbear]

March 28th, I'll be playing a show at a venue called Ruta Maya in Austin. You are welcome to come and introduce yourself and we can pretend this debacle never happened. Be forewarned, although we are basically family-friendly funk and R&B, some of our songs deal with human sexuality such as our cover of Bill Withers' "Use Me" or our own "Way to Love Me" which does mention a girl's nether regions by way of clever metaphor. I would call our show "T-rated".

HAH! Bone, you are awesome dude.

[Psykoboy2]

Any witchhunt reality scenes?

Yeah.

But its got a wang in it.

[Bone]

HAH! Bone, you are awesome dude.

Thanks! I think that's the first band plug constructed as a burn, and I'm sort of proud. I'll call it the plug-burn.

[txshurricane]

March 28th, I'll be playing a show at a venue called Ruta Maya in Austin. You are welcome to come and introduce yourself and we can pretend this debacle never happened. Be forewarned, although we are basically family-friendly funk and R&B, some of our songs deal with human sexuality such as our cover of Bill Withers' "Use Me" or our own "Way to Love Me" which does mention a girl's nether regions by way of clever metaphor. I would call our show "T-rated".
Thank you for the invite. After I drop off my daughter at Grandma's, it will be just me, and I'll look into coming by. No promises, but I'd love to see what's up.

In the meantime, I think I'll reform from Puritanism. We just burned our last hot chick at the stake.

[Ghostbear]

Remember kids, penis = evil.

[National Kato]

no promises, but i'd love to see what's up.


Warning: Veiled Penis Comment

[Wedge]

This is no ruse.

I'm sorta hoping it is...

[Bone]

Thank you for the invite. After I drop off my daughter at Grandma's, it will be just me, and I'll look into coming by. No promises, but I'd love to see what's up.

In the meantime, I think I'll reform from Puritanism. We just burned our last hot chick at the stake.That actually made me laugh. There may be hope for you Puritans yet (if you hadn't roasted all the hot chicks). My name is Eric, I'll be one of two guys playing guitar, and I'm not the Mexican :)

[torrefaction]

Remember kids, penis = evil.

No, penis == car wreck victims

[violent]

I'm sorta hoping it is...

There's no hope in this here internet.

[Ghostbear]

No, penis == car wreck victims

does that mean car wreck victims are evil?

[Bone]

does that mean car wreck victims are evil?No but they are decidedly sexy.

[torrefaction]

does that mean car wreck victims are evil?

Correct, good sir.

*Edit*

I like Bone's comment better :(

[txshurricane]

does that mean car wreck victims are evil?

Did I say car wreck? I meant horse and buggy accident. That should be plenty more penis for the penis fans.

[Ghostbear]

No but they are decidedly sexy.

Correct, good sir.

*Edit*

I like Bone's comment better :(

So...sexy car wreck victims are evil who are prudes. Awww fuck it, Is it too late to mention I hate GTA 4?

[Bone]

Correct, good sir.

*Edit*

I like Bone's comment better :(When your gamer handle doubles as another name for wang, you tend to make innuendo a daily practice. Try living as Penisfaction for awhile and see if it makes any change to your comment style.

Also, I love how "innuendo" is almost an innuendo in itself. In itself! I crack myself up.

[Wedge]

There's no hope in this here internet.

Goshdangit. I know. You are right, but for a second there I could have swore I felt it! This "hope"...



Oh yeah. Penises.

More penises in games, but properly labeled so the public can make informed purchases. Do not differentiate between male and female nudity on the warning, because it is more funny that way. About wraps it up for me.

Edit: What is the consensus on dogs' assholes in games? I could have sworn the dog in Chibi-Robo had this little x for an asshole.

*Off to play some more Lost and the Damned*

[torrefaction]

When your gamer handle doubles as another name for wang, you tend to make innuendo a daily practice. Try living as Penisfaction for awhile and see if it makes any change to your comment style.

Also, I love how "innuendo" is almost an innuendo in itself. In itself! I crack myself up.

Thanks folks, he'll be here all year...unfortunately for you.

[zarathstra]

\

Also, I love how "innuendo" is almost an innuendo in itself. In itself! I crack myself up.

To quote the Todd: In your endo

[torrefaction]

To quote the Todd: In your endo

Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

[DarkDay]

Anyone who care about this or sees it in a negative light is as much a hypocrite as can be.
We can show and allow you to blow people up, dismember them, innocents and others but good lord SAVE US! I THINK I SAW A REPRODUCTIVE PART OF A BODY....NOW BLOW HIS HEAD OFF!

[Bone]

Thanks folks, he'll be here all year...unfortunately for you.Tip your waitresses, and stick around for Kid Rock! God, I'm sorry man. I used my one KR card on you. Never again, I swear.


Anyone who care about this or sees it in a negative light is as much a hypocrite as can be.
We can show and allow you to blow people up, dismember them, innocents and others but good lord SAVE US! I THINK I SAW A REPRODUCTIVE PART OF A BODY....NOW BLOW HIS HEAD OFF!Maybe if the penis was being blown off by a grenade, it would make it OK.

[Siraris]

I just have to weigh in by saying, I don't understand tx's argument. If you see a penis in your home, whether it is your own, your lovers, your parents or your friends, you should look away in disgust? My friend Brandon used to whip his dick out and draw faces on his balls all the time. It was odd, but it was also hilarious, and I am no more demented from it than I was before.

In terms of the Lost and the Damned, as long as it says on the rating that there is full frontal nudity, what's the issue? It comes down to the fact that seeing a penis is taboo in our society. I will openly admit that I was at Borders yesterday looking at a Watchmen behind the scenes book, and I was taken aback when I saw Mr. Manhattan's penis in one of the shots. I did not avert my eyes, or turn away, I was just surprised that it was included in his model. As long as it is advertised in the rating, the only people who should care at that point are the people who put the film out, and risk losing viewership by some prude amish farmer not wanting to see a cock in his viewing experience.

I just want to add that it is the most ludicrous thing in our society that nudity is frowned upon, but senseless violence is considered ok. Last I checked, I could stand in the other room with my girlfriend, ass naked, and stare at our naked bodies in the mirror any time I want. Seeing it in a movie, is somehow worse, and yet seeing someone cut down by bullets, is ok. Does that mean that murder and violence is less damaging than a boob or a penis?

[DarkDay]

Tip your waitresses, and stick around for Kid Rock! God, I'm sorry man. I used my one KR card on you. Never again, I swear.


Maybe if the penis was being blown off by a grenade, it would make it OK.

Lol, never thought of that.. what...thats a horrible thought, but your right it would probably be more accepted if somehow intense violence was somehow mixed into it to appease the close minded, brainwashed or hyper religious.

[Kelegacy]

I just have to weigh in by saying, I don't understand tx's argument. If you see a penis in your home, whether it is your own, your lovers, your parents or your friends, you should look away in disgust? My friend Brandon used to whip his dick out and draw faces on his balls all the time. It was odd, but it was also hilarious, and I am no more demented from it than I was before.


That is fucking hilarious. Your friend rocks.

My best friend used to, when wearing shorts in college, stretch his scrotum out and try to get your attention. Then he'd say, "Did I sit in gum?" Sometimes it would take you a while to figure out WTF you were looking at.

Yeah, my friends are awesome too.

[DarkDay]

That is fucking hilarious. Your friend rocks.

My best friend used to, when wearing shorts in college, stretch his scrotum out and try to get your attention. Then he'd say, "Did I sit in gum?" Sometimes it would take you a while to figure out WTF you were looking at.

Yeah, my friends are awesome too.


lol, my bud you used to whip it out at the pub while playing pool to screw us up, his patented flying squirrel. Man it was funny but something only the few can pull off and still take home a quality woman.

[National Kato]

I had a friend who, during late night and all-night film editing sessions, would let a single nut show through the bottom of his shorts. Then he'd try and get your attention and when you looked at it, he'd punch you in the arm for looking.

This always confused us, but never ceased to make us laugh.

[txshurricane]

I just want to add that it is the most ludicrous thing in our society that nudity is frowned upon, but senseless violence is considered ok. Last I checked, I could stand in the other room with my girlfriend, ass naked, and stare at our naked bodies in the mirror any time I want. Seeing it in a movie, is somehow worse, and yet seeing someone cut down by bullets, is ok. Does that mean that murder and violence is less damaging than a boob or a penis?

A lot of things don't make sense and are set as a precedent long before our time. Nick and I had a quick chat about this, and I think it's pretty plain that games will come around the same way that books, magazines, film, TV, and radio have. There was a time that people walked out of Gone With The Wind because of a single curse word at the end that was replicated twenty times over in the G-rated John Wayne film Hellfighters 27 years later.

While waiting for common sense to overcome social "norms", consider why many films and games are banned in Europe for violence when their bar soap TV ads show full frontal female nudity... At least in America the games are still allowed to be marketed, and the worst that happens is a portion of the population (black hats, beards, and all) speak up.

[rinichanraar]

Non-female nudity in a game?! Awesome. ;)

I had a friend who, during late night and all-night film editing sessions, would let a single nut show through the bottom of his shorts. Then he'd try and get your attention and when you looked at it, he'd punch you in the arm for looking.

This is, I think, the original form of the circle game. You know, when you form a circle with your fingers and try to get people to look at it, then punch them.

My best friend used to, when wearing shorts in college, stretch his scrotum out and try to get your attention. Then he'd say, "Did I sit in gum?" Sometimes it would take you a while to figure out WTF you were looking at.

Yeah, my friends are awesome too.

In a thread about pretty serious business, this made me laugh. The imagery is both strange and intriguing.

[Johan]

This is the most meandering, rambling argument ever, and I have read a lot of this Internet thing. Now my head hurts.

I made perfect sense.

Shows you how hellish this thread is. :D

[torrefaction]

I made perfect sense.

Shows you how hellish this thread is. :D

You made perfect sense *AND* I agreed with you.

Isn't that like 2 out of 3 of the signs of the end times?

;)

[Johan]

You made perfect sense *AND* I agreed with you.

Isn't that like 2 out of 3 of the signs of the end times?

;)

I think it's two of the four horsemen, right there. The other two will be along any time now.

I better get back to gaming. We're running out of time!

[Bone]

That is fucking hilarious. Your friend rocks.

My best friend used to, when wearing shorts in college, stretch his scrotum out and try to get your attention. Then he'd say, "Did I sit in gum?" Sometimes it would take you a while to figure out WTF you were looking at.

Yeah, my friends are awesome too.

My friend did the same trick, only he would ask if you wanted to see cat brains.

[Psykoboy2]

Breast Of Quail.

[walkstheplanes]

They're just getting us ready to deal with Dr. Manhattan!

Hah! Few things will get me ready for blue, glowing penises on the IMAX.

[bean]

What I found annoying about the clip was the biker's delivery of the lines. I didn't believe him for a second.

[txshurricane]

Just watched the clip for the first time. Actually kind of funny. I wonder what was going through the mo-cap actor's head when they were doing the scene (if there was mo-cap)...

[Morangie]

While waiting for common sense to overcome social "norms", consider why many films and games are banned in Europe for violence when their bar soap TV ads show full frontal female nudity... At least in America the games are still allowed to be marketed, and the worst that happens is a portion of the population (black hats, beards, and all) speak up.

Before you start waving the Stars and Stripes too proudly, keep in mind any game rated AO on a console is effectively banned from sale. MS/Sony/Nintendo won't allow it to be released on their systems and most stores won't stock it.

"Many" films and games aren't banned in Europe. Even the most restrictive censor, the German USK, allows material refused a rating to be sold. It just can't be advertised or displayed, so it often wouldn't be worthwhile for a publisher to release there. If the British BBFC refuses to rate something while it can't be legally sold in the UK, its still perfectly legal to own and in their entire history they have banned two games: Carmaggedon, which had the ban overturned and Manhunt 2, where a cut version was later rated and released.


edit:

Just watched the clip for the first time. Actually kind of funny. I wonder what was going through the mo-cap actor's head when they were doing the scene (if there was mo-cap)...

You typed all that crap throughout the thread and you hadn't even watched the video?

...

[DoctorFinger]

Just watched the clip for the first time. Actually kind of funny. I wonder what was going through the mo-cap actor's head when they were doing the scene (if there was mo-cap)...
If I had to guess?
http://www.eastsidedeli.com/image/PRODUCTS/150/hot%20dog%2061251000704.jpg

[menage]

Before you start waving the Stars and Stripes too proudly, keep in mind any game rated AO on a console is effectively banned from sale. MS/Sony/Nintendo won't allow it to be released on their systems and most stores won't stock it.

I still think this is a very strange practice. I get the stores not stocking it but no other media device bans something because it has certain content, Sure there are internet watchdogs for some gruesome stuff and library's won't stock certain books (also strange, free speech yadayada). But I find this an anomaly in the whole media landscape. You could see the big three as a broadcasting facility in a way, cause television works the same way I guess, but the device itself? You can play porn blu-ray on a PS3 but can't show a penis in a game?

In this sense games are more wholesome than anything else I guess. It actually get's screened before it's even allowed out there, and way more strict. I get why, but in this sense it will always remain a toy, and linked to kids.

[DoctorFinger]

I still think this is a very strange practice. I get the stores not stocking it but no other media device bans something because it has certain content, and library's won't stock certain books (also strange, free speech yadayada). Sure there are internet watchdogs for some gruesome stuff. But I find this an anomaly in the whole media landscape.

In this sense games are more wholesome than anything else.Three reasons.

1) There's still a perception amongst a huge chunk of the world that video games are 'for kids', all evidence to the contrary be damned. The console makers don't want to court that controversy until the numbers even out a bit more.

2) They control every bit of content on their machines. Anyone can put out a DVD, or a book, or a CD or an MP3. You can't put out a console game w/o approval from the maker. So it wouldn't just be Company X making an AO game, it would be MS/Nintendo/Sony approving it.

3) You couldn't sell it in 95% of the retail markets. None of the big box stores sell 'X' rated movies, and they wouldn't sell 'AO' games (most won't even sell NC-17 films). You can't make money on a game that would only sell via small online outlets. Simply, there's no money in an AO game, and there likely won't be for a very long time.

[Sl1pstream]

While waiting for common sense to overcome social "norms", consider why many films and games are banned in Europe for violence when their bar soap TV ads show full frontal female nudity... At least in America the games are still allowed to be marketed, and the worst that happens is a portion of the population (black hats, beards, and all) speak up.

Newsflash: Germany lost WWII and Europe didn't turn into Super-Germania. Stop generalizing.

Also, in reality "many games and films" means a rather small list of them and you don't get executed for driving to another country (which is easy to do for every German citizen since they took that darn Berlin wall down a while ago), picking it up there and playing it anyway.

Thanks for trying though. :)

[MagGnome]

I watched the scene online a day or two ago. I'm hoping that it was just a low-quality video, because I was surprised at how poor everything looked, including the penis in question.

The whole scene seemed like something that belonged in Austin Powers. They kept almost showing the guy's dick, and then at the end they finally did, SHOCKER! The whole thing felt gratuitous and just plain pointless. I'm sure it will stir up a lot of controversy. It's obvious that's exactly what Rockstar wants.

[bapenguin]

Who knew a penis could insight riots.

[Psykoboy2]

Who knew a penis could insight riots.

Janet's boob did worse.

[Bone]

That was one nasty titty, to be honest.

[Spectre-7]

That was one nasty titty, to be honest.

That's Janet... Ms. Jackson if it's nasty.

[Kelegacy]

Who knew a penis could insight riots.

You obviously haven't seen mine. LA went batshit back in the 90s because of it.

[Rock Bandit]

8===D o.

[Primus]

Who cares? Just don't let the kids see.

[opsin]

Hah! Few things will get me ready for blue, glowing penises on the IMAX.

I am wondering if they are doing a 3d version of it. I mean, Mark Kemode keeps complaining about how all 3d in cinemas can do is pointy...

(Note, I still don't give a fuck whether Rockstar chose to show someobodies cock or not... What with it really not affecting the world and all.)

[JayVe]

I have started to develop a gut, so I don't get to see mine everyday anymore. :(

Maybe that's the problem with America. As a population, guys with guts forgot what a penis looks like, and get offended when they have to see other people's but can't view their own. ;)

Maybe people should be more disgusted with belly fat than with genitals.

[txshurricane]

Before you start waving the Stars and Stripes too proudly, keep in mind any game rated AO on a console is effectively banned from sale. MS/Sony/Nintendo won't allow it to be released on their systems and most stores won't stock it.

"Many" films and games aren't banned in Europe. Even the most restrictive censor, the German USK, allows material refused a rating to be sold. It just can't be advertised or displayed, so it often wouldn't be worthwhile for a publisher to release there. If the British BBFC refuses to rate something while it can't be legally sold in the UK, its still perfectly legal to own and in their entire history they have banned two games: Carmaggedon, which had the ban overturned and Manhunt 2, where a cut version was later rated and released.
Well, I'm not going to shed a tear for developers just because privately owned retailers decide not to sell AO-rated games. Wal-Mart doesn't sell live beef, either, but that doesn't mean you can't buy livestock.

At least developers have the option to sell AO-rated games directly from their websites...

You typed all that crap throughout the thread and you hadn't even watched the video?
You must not have read all that crap. I don't care what's in the video. Never did. Read it again.

[Morangie]

Well, I'm not going to shed a tear for developers just because privately owned retailers decide not to sell AO-rated games. Wal-Mart doesn't sell live beef, either, but that doesn't mean you can't buy livestock.

At least developers have the option to sell AO-rated games directly from their websites...

Directly from their websites, on to consoles they can't release on. Corporate censorship is still censorship. I was actually replying to the ill-informed "many games & films banned in Europe" stuff, rather than trying to bring up the problems in the US rating system.

You must not have read all that crap. I don't care what's in the video. Never did. Read it again.

Really? Because that point was somewhat lost after you started comparing a naked penis to the mutilated bodies left after a car crash.

[txshurricane]

Directly from their websites, on to consoles they can't release on. Corporate censorship is still censorship. I was actually replying to the ill-informed "many games & films banned in Europe" stuff, rather than trying to bring up the problems in the US rating system.

Really? Because that point was somewhat lost after you started comparing a naked penis to the mutilated bodies left after a car crash.
Well, don't buy game consoles from the big bad muzzling corporations, then.

And my point gets lost very easily. Especially here. Blame what you like, poke fun all you want. You're still putting words in my mouth.

And I'd much rather have cake.

[Psykoboy2]

And I'd much rather have cake.

Here you go:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/32/45618835_d70b332438.jpg




Okay. I know. I'm being a douche now. Seriously, it was a great joke and I couldn't pass it up. Sorry.

[violent]

A dick on screen can have no greater ill-effect than the blatant public murder to take place in the same game. Way I see it, if there is a problem, it's with the whole game, not the dick. You either have a problem with GTA4 or not. There is no dick problem.

[txshurricane]

Here you go:

Okay. I know. I'm being a douche now. Seriously, it was a great joke and I couldn't pass it up. Sorry.
Oh, snap. I just got icing on my forehead. Nice one.

[Ghostbear]

A dick on screen can have no greater ill-effect than the blatant public murder to take place in the same game. Way I see it, if there is a problem, it's with the whole game, not the dick. You either have a problem with GTA4 or not. There is no dick problem.

Well said violent. Trust me there are plenty of games without murder or penises. Txshurricane, I hear you can safely play Animal Crossing.

[violent]

Well said violent. Trust me there are plenty of games without murder or penises. Txshurricane, I hear you can safely play Animal Crossing.

I'm in no way leading the way in the "free the penises" movement but nudity needs to become understood where violence needs to be curbed. It saddens me when I see people that still thing nudity is the greater of the two evils.

[txshurricane]

I'm in no way leading the way in the "free the penises" movement but nudity needs to become understood where violence needs to be curbed. It saddens me when I see people that still thing nudity is the greater of the two evils.
At one time, they were both considered equally evil. I wonder what the taboo will be in 15 more years...

[CptTripps]

No Burt I haven't seen your slippers.

[violent]

At one time, they were both considered equally evil. I wonder what the taboo will be in 15 more years...

Well in Europe the body isn't nearly as taboo as it is here. That only complicates things as it isn't a matter of humanity anymore but rather one of cultural choice. I can only hope that our current boundaries are knocked down within the next 15 years only to be replaced by some currently unknown taboo. We need boundaries as a civilization but the human body should not be one of those. Eating dead babies should.

[txshurricane]

Well in Europe the body isn't nearly as taboo as it is here. That only complicates things as it isn't a matter of humanity anymore but rather one of cultural choice. I can only hope that our current boundaries are knocked down within the next 15 years only to be replaced by some currently unknown taboo. We need boundaries as a civilization but the human body should not be one of those. Eating dead babies should.
In some cultures, eating dead babies happens all the time. So does self mutilation and gross violations of human rights.

Just for curiosity's sake: where is the line drawn and who draws it? With the internet access people have these days, almost nothing is too heinous, as long as it's watched and not acted upon.
People sit at their keyboards and call my "car wreck victim" comment out of place, but then again, there are people on all continents that like to watch snuff films and such...

[violent]

In some cultures, eating dead babies happens all the time. So does self mutilation and gross violations of human rights.

Just for curiosity's sake: where is the line drawn and who draws it? With the internet access people have these days, almost nothing is too heinous, as long as it's watched and not acted upon.
People sit at their keyboards and call my "car wreck victim" comment out of place, but then again, there are people on all continents that like to watch snuff films and such...

The line is drawn collectively. No one person could control where it belongs so basically it is our methods of living that decides where it lays. Thing is though that nudity isn't some sort of cultural ritual, it is one of the few things that every single person in this planet has in common. Neglecting human nudity would be like neglecting the sky. One thing is deciding what is right and wrong, another thing is completely refusing to accept the existence of something real. Nudity isn't a choice, it's a part of humanity and the sooner people realize that nudity does not have to equate to lewdness or sexuality, the faster we can start arguing about stuff that doesn't matter.

We need to reach a point where people respect the human body. Only then can we look at something like this GTA4 thing and call it tasteful or tasteless. To be able to critique it on it's delivery, not merely due to it's inclusion of a particular body part.

[txshurricane]

The line is drawn collectively. No one person could control where it belongs so basically it is our methods of living that decides where it lays. Thing is though that nudity isn't some sort of cultural ritual, it is one of the few things that every single person in this planet has in common. Neglecting human nudity would be like neglecting the sky. One thing is deciding what is right and wrong, another thing is completely refusing to accept the existence of something real. Nudity isn't a choice, it's a part of humanity and the sooner people realize that nudity does not have to equate to lewdness or sexuality, the faster we can start arguing about stuff that doesn't matter.

We need to reach a point where people respect the human body. Only then can we look at something like this GTA4 thing and call it tasteful or tasteless. To be able to critique it on it's delivery, not merely due to it's inclusion of a particular body part.
Nice post. Very, very insightful, that last part. In fact, I'm going to leave it at that. Well spoken (typed?)!

[JayVe]

Thing is though that nudity isn't some sort of cultural ritual, it is one of the few things that every single person in this planet has in common. Neglecting human nudity would be like neglecting the sky. One thing is deciding what is right and wrong, another thing is completely refusing to accept the existence of something real. Nudity isn't a choice, it's a part of humanity and the sooner people realize that nudity does not have to equate to lewdness or sexuality, the faster we can start arguing about stuff that doesn't matter.

We need to reach a point where people respect the human body. Only then can we look at something like this GTA4 thing and call it tasteful or tasteless. To be able to critique it on it's delivery, not merely due to it's inclusion of a particular body part.

Excellent post. I agree wholeheartedly. I didn't find the GTA video tasteless at all. There's nothing sexual about a nude person. Even if there was, what is wrong with sex?

http://www.garden-fountains.com/famous-statues/david.jpg

Every single one of us is completely nude, and about half the population of the Earth have a penis.

[DarkDay]

The line is drawn collectively. No one person could control where it belongs so basically it is our methods of living that decides where it lays. Thing is though that nudity isn't some sort of cultural ritual, it is one of the few things that every single person in this planet has in common. Neglecting human nudity would be like neglecting the sky. One thing is deciding what is right and wrong, another thing is completely refusing to accept the existence of something real. Nudity isn't a choice, it's a part of humanity and the sooner people realize that nudity does not have to equate to lewdness or sexuality, the faster we can start arguing about stuff that doesn't matter.

We need to reach a point where people respect the human body. Only then can we look at something like this GTA4 thing and call it tasteful or tasteless. To be able to critique it on it's delivery, not merely due to it's inclusion of a particular body part.

Great post Violent. I just think its unfortunate that conversations like this only come up when the most natural of things is happening all the while in the same game/games mass murder and horrific acts are rewarded.

Not that I am complaining, both are fine with me its just sad that one is considered offensive while the other is not. Ah society.

[Johan]

...about half the population of the Earth have a penis.

But much more than half the world's population are dicks.

Just my opinion! I'm an eternal optimist! :)

[DarkDay]

But much more than half the world's population are dicks.

Just my opinion! I'm an eternal optimist! :)

Its here where someone would probably come in quote you with something like to know one is to be one, or you can't see under someone else's bed without being under your own.

I wouldn't post something like that, but I am sure its coming.. just not from me.

[violent]

Great post Violent. I just think its unfortunate that conversations like this only come up when the most natural of things is happening all the while in the same game/games mass murder and horrific acts are rewarded.

This is why it's extremely important for people to try and be responsible with their methods of communication. Differences of opinions can be met with a middle ground (and frankly, I think that's effective enough) and that allows at least some form of understanding. If you try and force a person into believing something, you may potentially turn them off the idea purely based on your delivery.

I look at it like this, it's not the person that doesn't know what 1+1 that is stupid, it's the one that tells you it's 3. If people can level themselves with each other and realize just how little we all really know, then I think we'd be a much more productive race. But that is an entirely different story.

[JayVe]

Its here where someone would probably come in quote you with something like to know one is to be one, or you can't see under someone else's bed without being under your own.

I wouldn't post something like that, but I am sure its coming.. just not from me.

Maybe it is coming, from a dick.

;)

[DarkDay]

Maybe it is coming, from a dick.

;)


wait..what? ok..what?

[Johan]

8===D ~~~~~

It's coming.

[TheFlyingOrc]

8===D ~~~~~

It's coming.

Mailing this post to your children.

[Kelegacy]

We need to reach a point where people respect the human body.
Agreed completely. We have the same parts as the naked man or woman on screen, in print, etc. To hate, fear or be repulsed by other genitilia is akin to hating our own.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Agreed completely. We have the same parts as the naked man or woman on screen, in print, etc. To hate, fear or be repulsed by other genitilia is akin to hating our own.

I don't hate, but I'm a proponent of keeping sexuality as part of the sacred. I really like that being completely open and intimate is a unique experience I share with my wife and only my wife.

Can't really say that I should be able to force other people to do the same, though.

[Spectre-7]

Agreed completely. We have the same parts as the naked man or woman on screen, in print, etc. To hate, fear or be repulsed by other genitilia is akin to hating our own.

The penis is evil. The penis shoots seeds and makes new life to poison the earth with a plague of men, as once it was. But the gun shoots death and purifies the earth of the filth of brutals. Go forth and kill! Zardoz has spoken.

[JayVe]

I don't hate, but I'm a proponent of keeping sexuality as part of the sacred. I really like that being completely open and intimate is a unique experience I share with my wife and only my wife.

Sexuality is not the same thing as nudity.

[Kelegacy]

I don't hate, but I'm a proponent of keeping sexuality as part of the sacred. I really like that being completely open and intimate is a unique experience I share with my wife and only my wife.

Can't really say that I should be able to force other people to do the same, though.

Sex or sexual context, I can agree with. But just a naked woman or man standing there, hot or not, isn't inherently sexual. As an adult, I can look at a naked woman and not cat call. I remember being in Human Sexuality, the biggest and most popular elective on campus in college (University of Maine, GO BLACK BEARS!) and we had to watch videos of different kinds of vaginas, the look, shape, etc. I did not feel turned on because they weren't presented in a sexual manner. I wish we could watch television with naked bodies and not fear for our children or be ourselves disgusted.

We also watched a movie of a man and also a video of a woman, masturbating to climax. You could tell it was from the 70s or early 80s because she had to actually PLUG-IN her vibrator. It was weird, but I didn't turn away. This is in a lecture hall of 400 students or so, packed to the gills. And I believe most of us behaved as adults. Because we were.

But that last paragraph has little to do with the topic on hand. I just used the class I took as an opening to talk about that. I don't expect people to be fine with watching others masturbate, but the fact that no one laughed or acted out was pretty interesting.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Sexuality is not the same thing as nudity.

It's a big part of it, and it is still something my wife and I only share with each other.

Again, I'm not for censorship, but in situations like this I don't care to see it.

[violent]

It's a big part of it, and it is still something my wife and I only share with each other.

Again, I'm not for censorship, but in situations like this I don't care to see it.

I can respect your views on nudity in that context. I have to ask though, do you think showing the nudity at all is a problem or can you coexist with open nudity given that it's not thrust upon you?

[Johan]

Mailing this post to your children.

I think I'm creeped out that you're writing my kids.

But hey...at least they're writing! :D

8===D

It stopped coming. :D I'm so immature...

[JayVe]

It's a big part of it, and it is still something my wife and I only share with each other.

Again, I'm not for censorship, but in situations like this I don't care to see it.

I understand what you are saying, and can respect that, but strictly speaking nudity has nothing to do with sexuality. Our society blurs the distinction between the two, but that is a learned behavior, not instinctual. In many ways this association is VERY unhealthy. It reinforces feelings of shame, and embarrassment in people for being the way they are. It breeds ignorance as to what healthy, normal people should look like.

My wife grew up in Europe, where they are much more open about nudity. Yet we still find each other very exciting when the clothes come off. The person INSIDE the body is what counts, not the flesh and bones.

[txshurricane]

I can respect your views on nudity in that context. I have to ask though, do you think showing the nudity at all is a problem or can you coexist with open nudity given that it's not thrust upon you?
Don't we already do that?

[violent]

Don't we already do that?

I'm talking in the context of a society that is not afraid to show nudity, as we currently are.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I can respect your views on nudity in that context. I have to ask though, do you think showing the nudity at all is a problem or can you coexist with open nudity given that it's not thrust upon you?

Hmm...interesting question.

I feel the appropriate response, from me, is similar to how I treat those around me who are doing a lousy job of raising their children - obviously, I have an opinion on what they should do, but I'm not going to tell them unless I've established a relationship with them. Simply because I think they're doing it wrong doesn't give me a right to tell strangers so.

I think for the betterment of society and for the betterment of each individual we should keep some areas of our bodies sacred (I've said many times that if boobs were never covered, seeing boobs wouldn't be anywhere near as hot/meaningful), but I think attempts on my part to suppress their ability to do so would be inappropriate and highly presumptuous.

[TheFlyingOrc]

My wife grew up in Europe, where they are much more open about nudity. Yet we still find each other very exciting when the clothes come off. The person INSIDE the body is what counts, not the flesh and bones.
This is obviously misinformed because I cannot bone her hard in the personality.

[txshurricane]

I understand what you are saying, and can respect that, but strictly speaking nudity has nothing to do with sexuality. Our society blurs the distinction between the two, but that is a learned behavior, not instinctual. In many ways this association is VERY unhealthy. It reinforces feelings of shame, and embarrassment in people for being the way they are. It breeds ignorance as to what healthy, normal people should look like.

My wife grew up in Europe, where they are much more open about nudity. Yet we still find each other very exciting when the clothes come off. The person INSIDE the body is what counts, not the flesh and bones.
Association is inevitable. Someone gets killed by a crack dealer with a 9mm Uzi, and suddenly responsibly people with automatic weapons are killers.

Not sure about everyone else here, but I'm not as desensitized to nudity as some people appear to be. If I see a naked woman, I'm apt to have a sudden bulge in my pants. If I see a naked guy, I'm apt to stop eating my sandwich and turn away. (For those of you hellbent on raking my values and opinion over the coals, you can now commence to lighting the fire, for this is my official t-shirt and armband.)

How does that make me more shallow than the person who supports House bill HR 45 (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-45)?

[violent]

I think for the betterment of society and for the betterment of each individual we should keep some areas of our bodies sacred (I've said many times that if boobs were never covered, seeing boobs wouldn't be anywhere near as hot/meaningful), but I think attempts on my part to suppress their ability to do so would be inappropriate and highly presumptuous.

I can certainly see the possibility of everyday nudity taking away a little of that magic in the bedroom but is it possible that maybe society as a whole could use a little restraint in their sexual desire? Personally, I think pornography is more damaging to the aforementioned sacredness than to see topless woman sitting on her porch.

Association is inevitable.

I could sit with a naked woman for hours and not have any kind of sexual desire conjured up because of it. It's not a question of my personal drive but rather one of being grounded to what the realities of life are.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Personally, I think pornography is more damaging to the aforementioned sacredness than to see topless woman sitting on her porch.
Most certainly! I have an article on hand talking about how pornography has made us enjoy sex far less:

The Porn Myth (http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/index1.html) It's an excellent read if you want to take the time.

I actually can see the damage pornography has had on my ability to relate sexually to my wife - sex with her takes effort, her body is not perfect, and she does not exist to please me with no regard for her own desires.

I'm going to guess that "full frontal" nudity will never really gain mainstream acceptance - penises and vaginas are still pretty hidden even in Africa, where it's really too hot to wear pants. However, I think if America as a nation started being totally OK with going topless, many of the advocates of the practice would notice that it really didn't have an effect on anything.

[JayVe]

Not sure about everyone else here, but I'm not as desensitized to nudity as some people appear to be. If I see a naked woman, I'm apt to have a sudden bulge in my pants. If I see a naked guy, I'm apt to stop eating my sandwich and turn away. (For those of you hellbent on raking my values and opinion over the coals, you can now commence to lighting the fire, for this is my official t-shirt and armband.)

Hey, most of us are exactly the same way. That's a natural reaction based on the upbringing we've had. Rarely do any of us get an eyefull of nudity unless we go looking for it. Yet, I can guarantee you that people in other cultures are much more comfortable with nudity. The only reason anyone thinks nudity is wrong, is because they were told it is wrong.

At one point in American history, people would be offended if a black person walked in the wrong door. Cultural upbringing reinforced the belief that some people were better than others based on the color of their skin. People growing up today are much more 'colorblind' than they were in the past. We've started to dissociate the notion of superiority and skin color. Personally, I think we're better off now than before.

As Violent points out, sexuality is already overdone. If we were more open about our nudity, and learn to disassociate nudity from sexuality, we'd probably be a little better off.

[Bone]

I actually can see the damage pornography has had on my ability to relate sexually to my wife - sex with her takes effort, her body is not perfect, and she does not exist to please me with no regard for her own desires.I think that's a personal, anecdotal thing and hardly a universal truth. I consumed tons of porn and I find sex with my wife effortless, joyous, and just plain awesome. And we can enjoy porn together without comparing our bodies to the hired models on screen.

If indeed you have based your standards on porn so that no normal woman can meet them, then yes, it can damage you.

I think, in fact, we've disassociated ourselves so much from the naked body that many people allow simple pictorial nudity (Playboy) to be called porn- when it's really not.