Oh fuck you, Microsoft. You too, Bethesda.

[Slack3r78]

I'm not buying retarded fucking Microsoft Points just to get the Fallout 3 DLC for the PC. That's got to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I had credit card in hand ready to purchase until I ran into that idiocy.

Sucks, was looking forward to this one, but I'll be doing without until these idiots unfuck themselves.

[pomeroy]

Sucks, was looking forward to this one, but I'll be doing without until these idiots unfuck themselves.

So you'll be doing without, then.

[total]

You can get 400 points from zune.net for $5. Pretty easy to do it through there.

[Slack3r78]

So you'll be doing without, then.
Pretty much. I'd rather wait for a fucking GotY version to come out later on, but that, and then give away my vanilla copy than support this bullshit.

I can somewhat understand the point system on the 360, though I found it annoying, but on the PC? Where every other service takes credit cards directly and the Live marketplace is essentially a barren wasteland anyway? Fuck that.

[Fenced]

Forcing customers to buy in 500 point increments, when they sell DLC in 400 point increments is pretty ridiculous. I think they sell 800 point cards at retail now, so try looking for one of those.

[Slack3r78]

Forcing customers to buy in 500 point increments, when they sell DLC in 400 point increments is pretty ridiculous. I think they sell 800 point cards at retail now, so try looking for one of those.
They do it so you'll have left over and be tempted to buy other things on the marketplace with the leftovers. Problem is, the ONLY thing to buy on the fucking PC marketplace is the Fallout DLC, and they've taken their sweet fucking time getting that much up there.

[total]

Are you both drunk?

400 points, $5, zune.net.

[alienmastermind]

I have long ago acceded to the fact that Microsoft, and therefore any company releasing DLC on the 360 will be using this arcane math to fuck me out of 1.00 each time I buy shit from them.

Also, I still have this mysterious 40 points. I don't know what the hell cost me 60 points, or hundreds-and 60 points, but there you are. 40 useless goddamned points, that just sit there and mock me with their worthlessness.

But, I understand this is the world we live in, oh oh oh, and these are the hands we're given. And, sadly, this means I have to buy fucking points. For shit. *sigh* I oughtta write a comic about it, but it just depresses me.

AM

[Stoke]

I have long ago acceded to the fact that Microsoft, and therefore any company releasing DLC on the 360 will be using this arcane math to fuck me out of 1.00 each time I buy shit from them.

Also, I still have this mysterious 40 points. I don't know what the hell cost me 60 points, or hundreds-and 60 points, but there you are. 40 useless goddamned points, that just sit there and mock me with their worthlessness.

But, I understand this is the world we live in, oh oh oh, and these are the hands we're given. And, sadly, this means I have to buy fucking points. For shit. *sigh* I oughtta write a comic about it, but it just depresses me.

AM

I'm not sure if the PC system uses the same account as the 360 but some Rock Band songs are 160 points.

[total]

....English motherfuckers...do you speak it?

http://i40.tinypic.com/34ox9qe.png

[SpeedRazor]

If only there were a way to get points in 400 point increments. Then no one would be able to complain...

Edit: Oh wait, total only told you guys three times in this thread how to do it. If only there was a way that everyone could read. Then no one would be able to complain...

[Slack3r78]

....English motherfuckers...do you speak it?

Which is linked nowhere on the GFWL marketplace (which just gives you the usual worthless 500 point increments), isn't really obvious on the zune.net page, and would apparently require me to create a Zune account that I neither need nor want. That's a MS Passport, Live account, and a Zune account I'd all need because Microsoft doesn't know how to manage identities.

I guess if I enjoyed being fucked around, I'd go to the trouble, but I really can't be bothered at this point.

[alienmastermind]

I'm not sure if the PC system uses the same account as the 360 but some Rock Band songs are 160 points.

Solved like that. But I don't own Rock Band...I do however have GH 2 and 3.

But the forty points are still annoying.

[total]

Which is linked nowhere on the GFWL marketplace (which just gives you the usual worthless 500 point increments), isn't really obvious on the zune.net page, and would apparently require me to create a Zune account that I neither need nor want. That's a MS Passport, Live account, and a Zune account I'd all need because Microsoft doesn't know how to manage identities.

I guess if I enjoyed being fucked around, I'd go to the trouble, but I really can't be bothered at this point.

Your live account and passport account will work on zune.net. I use my live account. :)

[Slack3r78]

Your live account and passport account will work on zune.net. I use my live account. :)
I tried signing in with my Passport, which is the same as my Live account, and it bounced me to a registration page for a Zune account. Fuck that, not worth the bother.

[Nameless]

What do you buy for your Zune, anyway?

[total]

I tried signing in with my Passport, which is the same as my Live account, and it bounced me to a registration page for a Zune account. Fuck that, not worth the bother.

Seriously man? It was like 3 clicks for me and I was off and running. I guess the Fallout DLC isn't worth the 2 minutes of your time?

What do you buy for your Zune, anyway?

I don't even own a Zune. I like getting my 400 points off the site.

[Aggort]

Are 360 gamertags linked with Windows Live accounts? If so, couldn't I use my points from there on my PC?

[MalReynolds]

b/c Ipod sucks

[Stoke]

Solved like that. But I don't own Rock Band...I do however have GH 2 and 3.

But the forty points are still annoying.

Buy 1200 more points and then buy 7 more $2 songs. Problem solved. :D

Edit: wait what? math ain't happening right now

What do you buy for your Zune, anyway?

I'm guessing music.

[Slack3r78]

Seriously man? It was like 3 clicks for me and I was off and running. I guess the Fallout DLC isn't worth the 2 minutes of your time?
I am trying to give them my money. They have made this difficult for me, and that rather pisses me off. No, I'm not willing to jump through hoops to give them fucking money. They should be making the process as easy for me as possible.

I mean, christ, this is a fucking entertainment product. If I'm having to work to get it and use it, they've failed miserably at the customer experience level.

[fitbabits]

Are 360 gamertags linked with Windows Live accounts? If so, couldn't I use my points from there on my PC?
Yes, they are.

Yes, you could.

Where one person sees a mountain, another sees an opportunity.

[jpublic]

Don't you guys have 360's too? My XBL account is tied to my GFWL account. Same point pool. I had 800 points sitting there left over from my wife's last Rock Band DLC run.

[Slack3r78]

Yes, they are.

Yes, you could.

Where one person sees a mountain, another sees an opportunity.
An opportunity to use Microsoft points with the 360 or Zune I don't own? Brilliant.

[jpublic]

An opportunity to use Microsoft points with the 360 or Zune I don't own? Brilliant.

What the *fuck* Slack3r78? Account for yourself not having a 360.

[fitbabits]

An opportunity to use Microsoft points with the 360 or Zune I don't own? Brilliant.
Do you have a Windows Live account?

Do you have a Games for Windows Live account?

Both are free to sign up for, and both will allow you to purchase points in order to get the DLC you want(ed).

[Slack3r78]

For the record, I was one of what seemed like the few people who had been enjoying and largely defending Games for Windows Live up to this point. I'd actually considered purchasing a few titles specifically because of GFWL integration to pick up some achievements. When they finally got a clue and dropped the gold/silver nonsense on GFWL to come inline with the rest of the market, I could see it as being a decent service.

This point nonsense is just that when there isn't a single other major digital distribution network on the PC that pulls this garbage. Hopefully Microsoft eventually gets hit over the head with a clue stick and comes in line with the rest of the market on this one too.

[Slack3r78]

Do you have a Windows Live account?

Do you have a Games for Windows Live account?

Both are free to sign up for, and both will allow you to purchase points in order to get the DLC you want(ed).
I have both. GFWL gives me the option of buying points in 500 point increments for content that costs 800 points. Which is the ONLY content on the marketplace. Meaning I get to have left over points sitting around that I couldn't even use if I wanted to because there is nothing else on the marketplace for me to buy.

Apparently if I was willing to jump through some more hoops and sign up for a Zune account, I could have bought in 400 point increments that way, but I'm not going to go out of my way to lend support a bullshit system.

What the *fuck* Slack3r78? Account for yourself not having a 360.
Mine was stolen about a year ago. I've had little compelling reason to buy another one since I rebuilt my gaming PC and have generally found Steam to be a solid experience. Complete with a simple, no bullshit method of purchasing content.

[Voodoo]

The review's of the Fallout 3 DLC haven't been very good. I was going to get it but then decided to put the $5 into the Dawn of War 2 fund. :)

Also, if there's this much trouble with what is, more or less, the first PC based live title to get DLC from GFWL I don't look forward to how Dawn of War 2 will be handled... :|

[jpublic]

Yeah, I was about one click from picking up the F3 DLC and passed. I'm savingup for FEAR2.

[Slack3r78]

Also, if there's this much trouble with what is, more or less, the first PC based live title to get DLC from GFWL I don't look forward to how Dawn of War 2 will be handled... :|
Rumblings I've heard is that Relic intends to do quite a bit of free DLC for DoW2....

[Voodoo]

Rumblings I've heard is that Relic intends to do quite a bit of free DLC for DoW2....
Oh I know that and one has to wonder if one of the reasons is due to the terrible process you must go through to buy DLC through GFWL. I don't doubt that right now Relic is watching what is going on with Fallout 3's DLC with very stern eyes.

[Jackel]

Do you have a Windows Live account?

Do you have a Games for Windows Live account?

Both are free to sign up for, and both will allow you to purchase points in order to get the DLC you want(ed).

While I would really love to pick up this DLC, the payment methods are retarded. I don't want to buy extra points through the store, and I shouldn't have to goto the Zune store to buy the exact amount of points.

Hopefully this bothers enough people so MS realizes that what might be ok on a closed system where people have no other choice (console), just doesn't fly with PC users who have other options.

[Slack3r78]

While I would really love to pick up this DLC, the payment methods are retarded. I don't want to buy extra points through the store, and I shouldn't have to goto the Zune store to buy the exact amount of points.

Hopefully this bothers enough people so MS realizes that what might be ok on a closed system where people have no other choice (console), just doesn't fly with PC users who have other options.
This is basically what I've been getting at, in a much less belligerent manner. :)

[total]

For the record, I was one of what seemed like the few people who had been enjoying and largely defending Games for Windows Live up to this point. I'd actually considered purchasing a few titles specifically because of GFWL integration to pick up some achievements.

There is another thread recently started where I state that I actually enjoy GFWL. I didn't start using it until up about two weeks ago though. I only use it for F3 and Shadowrun though so my experience is limited. As to the zune.net issue. It seems easy enough to me really. A few clicks and you are good to go. Like I said, I don't even own a Zune but it is easy to get 400 points off there. I guess if you see it to be too big of a hassle, then it is. I simply don't see it as that hard. I'll sure as hell take it over to going to the store.

[Slack3r78]

There is another thread recently started where I state that I actually enjoy GFWL. I didn't start using it until up about two weeks ago though. I only use it for F3 and Shadowrun though so my experience is limited. As to the zune.net issue. It seems easy enough to me really. A few clicks and you are good to go. Like I said, I don't even own a Zune but it is easy to get 400 points off there. I guess if you see it to be to big of a hassle, then it is. I simply don't see it as that hard. I'll sure as hell take it over to going to the store.
A. There is no way to know that it's possible to buy from the Zune store in 400 point increments if your only interaction with Microsoft Points is through GFWL or XBL. The fact that points are only sold in 'odd' increments through those outlets is basically being abusive of your customers, IMO.

B. Having to go to another site is a pain. Requiring a third account to do anything there is ridiculous. Yes, it's probably just a couple of form fields, a checkbox or three, and agreeing to yet another EULA. When all I want to do is, again, give them my money that is failing at the user experience.

C. Firing up Steam, clicking buy, and punching in my credit card info doesn't require me to go to the store, either, and is a far less annoying experience.

[Voodoo]

C. Firing up Steam, clicking buy, and punching in my credit card info doesn't require me to go to the store, either, and is a far less annoying experience.
What is concerning is that there are those, like myself, that purchased Fallout 3 through Steam. This means, to me at least, that it was a very deliberate decision NOT to use Steam as the DLC method. It sure seems to be a very particular reasoning that fails to make any sense to me.

[Jackel]

What is concerning is that there are those, like myself, that purchased Fallout 3 through Steam. This means, to me at least, that it was a very deliberate decision NOT to use Steam as the DLC method. It sure seems to be a very particular reasoning that fails to make any sense to me.

It really is disappointing, however I've gotten my money's worth so far and I'll make due with mods if it isn't released in a more suitable manner. The only thing we can do is vote with our wallet and hope companies like Relic learn from Bethesda's mistakes regarding the dlc.

[total]

A. There is no way to know that it's possible to buy from the Zune store in 400 point increments if your only interaction with Microsoft Points is through GFWL or XBL. The fact that points are only sold in 'odd' increments through those outlets is basically being abusive of your customers, IMO.

I agree, but it is what it is. You are going the right way by voting with your wallet. I more than likely won't, as there is an option that I find acceptable enough.

B. Having to go to another site is a pain. Requiring a third account to do anything there is ridiculous. Yes, it's probably just a couple of form fields, a checkbox or three, and agreeing to yet another EULA. When all I want to do is, again, give them my money that is failing at the user experience.

My Zune account is linked to my live account. There really isn't another account, just an added feature to the account I already have. Again, I just don't see it as a big issue.

C. Firing up Steam, clicking buy, and punching in my credit card info doesn't require me to go to the store, either, and is a far less annoying experience.

I would also agree with you, but as far as I know the DLC isn't being offered through Steam. So you know, wish in one hand...

[AbeLincoln]

Especially when you consider how easy piracy is for the PC, it makes no sense to make it harder for people to give you money. The less scrupulous will again just say "fuck it" and torrent it.

[Kelegacy]

It IS stupid you have to buy fake money with real money and then use the fake money to buy the DLC. Especially on the PC. I can't believe they don't allow you just to...you know...BUY it like a normal person with a credit card. It's just another hoop you have to jump through to purchase the content.

[TrackZero]

A. There is no way to know that it's possible to buy from the Zune store in 400 point increments if your only interaction with Microsoft Points is through GFWL or XBL. The fact that points are only sold in 'odd' increments through those outlets is basically being abusive of your customers, IMO.

B. Having to go to another site is a pain. Requiring a third account to do anything there is ridiculous. Yes, it's probably just a couple of form fields, a checkbox or three, and agreeing to yet another EULA. When all I want to do is, again, give them my money that is failing at the user experience.

C. Firing up Steam, clicking buy, and punching in my credit card info doesn't require me to go to the store, either, and is a far less annoying experience.

Slack, you've gone above and beyond at this point. It's obvious you just want to rag on Microsoft and have no interest in actually buying the content or not. Want me to rename the thread for you? Whaaaambulance is still available.

[Goronmon]

Slack, you've gone above and beyond at this point. It's obvious you just want to rag on Microsoft and have no interest in actually buying the content or not. Want me to rename the thread for you?I think his complaints are valid. Having to scour the internet for a mechanism to purchase content at its actual price is a bit ridiculous.

[TrackZero]

I think his complaints are valid. Having to scour the internet for a mechanism to purchase content at its actual price is a bit ridiculous.

Whining over a few bucks also is.

[DarkDay]

Its not too difficult but it still reeks of major BS.

[Goronmon]

Whining over a few bucks also is.If you don't mind throwing away money, send some my way.

[itchyeyes]

I tried signing in with my Passport, which is the same as my Live account, and it bounced me to a registration page for a Zune account. Fuck that, not worth the bother.
I'm with Slack3r78 here. On the 360, where there's essentially zero competing models they can get away with this stuff. On the PC, where there are literally dozens of more consumer-friendly models out there this is just stupid. It doesn't matter if there are workarounds. There shouldn't have to be. I don't have to go to a different site to buy something for STEAM (or Impulse, or Greenhouse, or GOG, or iTunes, etc, etc, etc...), why am I going to waste my time doing that with Microsoft when there's so much more content out there that's easier to get to? The act of making it more difficult than your competitors for your customers to buy your product is just plain bad business.

[itchyeyes]

Whining over a few bucks also is.
I think it's more the principle of the thing that he's complaining about.

[Slack3r78]

Slack, you've gone above and beyond at this point. It's obvious you just want to rag on Microsoft and have no interest in actually buying the content or not. Want me to rename the thread for you? Whaaaambulance is still available.
Oh, so the answer is to lovingly grovel at the feet of the ever benevolent content providers no matter what they do?

Yes, I'd liked to have bought the expansion.

No, I'm not going to buy it so long as I'm forced to do so through a system that requires me to jump through needless hoops and give Microsoft money to sit on for nothing.

But clearly, I was just going out of my way to find something to 'rag on' Microsoft about last night when I was trying to purchase this content. I have such a long history of baseless Microsoft bashing, what, with my promotion of the 360 in general as the premier console experience this generation, or the way I've consistently defended Vista against all the moaning and whining about it.

It couldn't possibly be because I'm interested in what is beneficial for me as a consumer. It couldn't possibly be that I'm upset that Microsoft is doing something which is totally out of line with the rest of the industry which has a direct negative impact on me. That can't be it at all.

Get bent.

[Slack3r78]

I think it's more the principle of the thing that he's complaining about.
Principles don't count when it's only a few bucks.

[Voodoo]

Rumblings I've heard is that Relic intends to do quite a bit of free DLC for DoW2....
Aww crap...
Dawn of War II Producer Mark Noseworthy also described their post-launch plans for the game: "We are extremely interested in working with Microsoft to offer several types of free and premium downloadable content through their Games for Windows - LIVE Marketplace. In fact, there may even be some DLC available during the first few weeks after the game’s released if everything goes to plan."

[CES]

C. Firing up Steam, clicking buy, and punching in my credit card info doesn't require me to go to the store, either, and is a far less annoying experience.

For what it's worth, Steam doesn't even require that much effort. "Purchase using Paypal" on Steam is just perfect simplicity. Now, if only D2D did the same (you want to talk about clunky purchase methods, D2D is one of the worst next to Impulse.)

As an aside, I despise CC-only purchase methods in general because I don't plan to own a CC. If MS didn't do the points cards, i'd probably would skip over most Live stuff.

[Mot Wakorb]

As an aside, I despise CC-only purchase methods in general because I don't plan to own a CC. If MS didn't do the points cards, i'd probably would skip over most Live stuff.

You could always grab one of those rechargeable Visa/Mastercard cards from a store and use that to make your purchases as another option.

[Deadend]

Whats all this about Steam? I didn't realize Steam had the capability of doing DLC style things. Someone show me some DLC ON Steam.

[Slack3r78]

Whats all this about Steam? I didn't realize Steam had the capability of doing DLC style things. Someone show me some DLC ON Steam.
For example:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/3990/

Civilization IV®: Warlords requires the Steam version of Sid Meier's Civilization IV to buy.Hey, sounds like DLC to me. There are plenty of other expansion packs, etc, available on Steam, as well.

[TrackZero]

Oh, so the answer is to lovingly grovel at the feet of the ever benevolent content providers no matter what they do?

Yes, I'd liked to have bought the expansion.

No, I'm not going to buy it so long as I'm forced to do so through a system that requires me to jump through needless hoops and give Microsoft money to sit on for nothing.

But clearly, I was just going out of my way to find something to 'rag on' Microsoft about last night when I was trying to purchase this content. I have such a long history of baseless Microsoft bashing, what, with my promotion of the 360 in general as the premier console experience this generation, or the way I've consistently defended Vista against all the moaning and whining about it.

It couldn't possibly be because I'm interested in what is beneficial for me as a consumer. It couldn't possibly be that I'm upset that Microsoft is doing something which is totally out of line with the rest of the industry which has a direct negative impact on me. That can't be it at all.

Get bent.

And here I was ready for a proper reply, until I read the last two paragraphs.

Fact is, you're overreacting out of principle, repeatedly, which is whining. The issue isn't big enough it'll ever change. So you may as well be yelling at a wall. (Also PSN and WiiWare are just as guilty, so it's really misdirected.)

Edit: And if you want a real complaint, it's with Steam. Why the fuck do I have to go re-enter all my credit card information every time I go to make a purchase? I'm more than happy to have $3 sitting in the "steam" account that'll have to wait to be used in the future than wasting a few minutes getting all my info re-entered every time I make a purchase. Not to mention that half the time I buy something on the weekend, Valve seems to have some CC auth problems and I have to wait until later and try again for it to work.

[Harv]

The IGN review of the content indicates it's a bit short for $10, but still fun.

Not sure I will get it right now.

[Slack3r78]

And here I was ready for a proper reply, until I read the last two paragraphs.

Fact is, you're overreacting out of principle, repeatedly, which is whining. The issue isn't big enough it'll ever change. So you may as well be yelling at a wall. (Also PSN and WiiWare are just as guilty, so it's really misdirected.)
Yes, because you started off so maturely with that nonsense about the whambulance. That made responding in a proper manner absolutely compelling.

So fatalism is my best solution? Because Microsoft has never changed anything in response to customer complaints? Open your eyes. Microsoft actually does a very good job of listening to its customers for a company of its size. The chance of this changing in the near term may be slim, but sitting down and STFUing guarantees that things won't change.

Yes, WiiWare does the same thing, and I don't participate in that system in turn. And PSN?

Unlike Microsoft's Xbox Live Marketplace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_Live_Marketplace) and Nintendo's Wii Shop Channel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wii_Shop_Channel), which each use their own specific currencies (Microsoft Points and Wii Points, respectively), all purchases (with the exception of alternatives in some countries; see following sections) are made using the actual real-world currency of the users' home country (for example in the United States, purchases are made using USD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_dollar)).


Further, these are closed console systems. I'm talking specifically about the PC gaming market where nobody else pulls this crap and where there are other options. The pressure is on Microsoft to either make the experience easy or to come in line with the rest of the market.


But pointing this out and being a little upset that they are failing on this point makes me a whiner. I guess I'll get my head on straight, shut the fuck up, and just accept that I am completely powerless as a consumer. Thanks for the sterling advice.

[boratika]

Let's take a look at all those great things I can put thoses 200 points (no zune points outside NA) towards:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f66/boratika/gfwlmarketplace.png

Oh wait, I just purchased everything in the marketplace. (Hypothetically, I mean.)

So before today...the "market place" didn't actually have a single item for sale?...

And the fact that to get a GFWL account you are taken to the Xbox Live page really didn't impress upon me an impression of active interest in PC gamers from MS.

[Slack3r78]

Let's take a look at all those great things I can put thoses 200 points (no zune points outside NA) towards:

Oh wait, I just purchased everything in the marketplace. (Hypothetically, I mean.)

So before today...the "market place" didn't actually have a single item for sale?...

And the fact that to get a GFWL account you are taken to the Xbox Live page really didn't impress upon me an impression of active interest in PC gamers from MS.
It's only a few bucks. I don't see what you're on about.

[Kelegacy]

Aww crap...

Welcome your gaming middlemen overlords...Microsoft.

[Harv]

The problem really is that with the 360 they have an installed base of customers that have accepted this point system and there is a crossover between PC gamers and 360 gamers to the point where you aren't going to have a lot of people complaining about them linking the two systems of payment together.

If you have a 360 then you probably don't mind this method of payment, because you are already locked into it on the 360.

If you don't have a 360 then you will probably find this payment method onerous and the extra points worthless since you can't really buy much else on the PC. Then again, I found it a bit stupid as well on the 360 until I started using the extra points with other purchases. Obviously I fell for their trap.

Not sure how much traction you will get on changing this situation overall. If there were no 360 users then I can see it working out better.

I sympathize even if I'm not really going to make a stink about it since I will just end up using extra points for interesting stuff on my 360.

[TrackZero]

So fatalism is my best solution? Because Microsoft has never changed anything in response to customer complaints? Open your eyes. Microsoft actually does a very good job of listening to its customers for a company of its size. The chance of this changing in the near term may be slim, but sitting down and STFUing guarantees that things won't change.

There's not enough people like you for this to change. Let's put it that way.

Yes, WiiWare does the same thing, and I don't participate in that system in turn. And PSN?

PSN still makes you "buy" currency in batches. The fact that you don't have to do more math doesn't change how it operates.


Further, these are closed console systems. I'm talking specifically about the PC gaming market where nobody else pulls this crap and where there are other options. The pressure is on Microsoft to either make the experience easy or to come in line with the rest of the market.

The experience is easy. That's not in question. I hit "buy points" bam, it's done. You're complaining about it's lack of exact change. If you hit "buy this" and it just charged you for the exact amount of points you need for the item, you'd have nothing to discuss. So the problem that you've brought up in the last 10 posts is that you don't like having change in your virtual pocket on their servers. Fine, we get that. Hell, I agree with you, it'd be great if they didn't do that. But not enough people care to the degree you do, so it's all moot. There's frankly far more important things in this world to get worked up about then $3 sitting in a virtual account.

But pointing this out and being a little upset that they are failing on this point makes me a whiner. I guess I'll get my head on straight, shut the fuck up, and just accept that I am completely powerless as a consumer. Thanks for the sterling advice.

You're more than welcome to bring it up. However replying to everyone else on every 3rd post about it without adding much to your argument, yeah, comes across as just whining. If you don't like that, *shrug*. Don't take it personally, it doesn't say anything about you as a person. I'm just pointing out that on this particular issue, you're overdoing it.

[Kelegacy]

Why didn't Bethesda just release the DLC without having to enlist Microsoft? I haven't been a PC gamer in a few years, so I don't know how the Games For Windows platform works, or why companies even elect to use it. I'm guessing it's a money hat or something from Microsoft? Because if developers aren't being compensated, they must be paying Microsoft to use the service...you don't buy Microsoft points and then buy content without Microsoft getting a portion of that.

I just don't understand. But this is another example of why I have always been wary of Microsoft in the gaming sector, at least since they've arrived full force on the home consoles. With the 360 we saw game prices jump suddenly, DLC rip-offs, outrageously priced "locked" peripherals that have no third party alternatives (HDDs).

I love my 360, but still am skeptical of Microsoft as a company with their hands elbow -deep in my hobby, present and future.

[Voodoo]

Not sure how much traction you will get on changing this situation overall. If there were no 360 users then I can see it working out better.

I sympathize even if I'm not really going to make a stink about it since I will just end up using extra points for interesting stuff on my 360.
I would just like Bethesda to explain the purpose of this...

http://store.steampowered.com/app/22300/

...and since it is present why isn't the DLC available through the same channel.

[Harv]

I would just like Bethesda to explain the purpose of this...

http://store.steampowered.com/app/22300/

...and since it is present why isn't the DLC available through the same channel.

My guess is that they will later release the content for PS3 and Steam and what not, but that for now they are doing an exclusive through the Microsoft delivery systems because they made some sort of deal with Microsoft to that effect.

Though on the IGN review it says that there will not be a PS3 release, which doesn't really make sense to me overall why they would screw the PS3 users.

As for why it can be purchased through Steam, but the content isn't available through Steam I think it's probably the same reason you can buy the game from multiple different vendors. Steam doesn't lock the developer into releasing all content for a game through them.

[Telefrog]

For example:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/3990/

Hey, sounds like DLC to me. There are plenty of other expansion packs, etc, available on Steam, as well.

Actually, I wouldn't call a full expansion pack with a separate serial number if bought at retail, a good example of DLC. A better example on Steam would be... Oh, nothing. Impulse has the Entrenchment "mini-expansion" DLC, but that's about it.


Though on the IGN review it says that there will not be a PS3 release, which doesn't really make sense to me overall why they would screw the PS3 users.


Did Bethesda ever release all the Oblivion DLC on PSN? Nope.

[Voodoo]

As for why it can be purchased through Steam, but the content isn't available through Steam I think it's probably the same reason you can buy the game from multiple different vendors. Steam doesn't lock the developer into releasing all content for a game through them.
At long last, I found the answer...
Bethesda's Pete Hines shared his thoughts on this new partnership (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Microsoft-Plans-To-Rival-Steam-Offers-Fallout-3-DLC-97890.shtml).

"Games for Windows LIVE helps us expand the Fallout 3 universe and bring the full experience directly to gamers. Through the Marketplace we now have a no-nonsense way to deliver updates and great downloadable content. It's really a complete package, and a great fit for Fallout 3."
Thumbs up for no-nonsense.

[Ten19]

"Games for Windows LIVE helps us expand the Fallout 3 universe and bring the full experience directly to gamers. Through the Marketplace we now have a no-nonsense way to deliver updates and great downloadable content. It's really a complete package, and a great fit for Fallout 3."

I'm pretty sure this is what Steam is, without the bullshit.

Sounds like someone in Rockville, Maryland got a check from Redmond.

[Bad Buddha]

Meh. $5 for a quest? Sounds like horse armor to me.

I look at this situation, and then I look at The Witcher Enhanced Edition...

If you buy it, you're just supporting that business model.

[Telefrog]

Meh. $5 for a quest? Sounds like horse armor to me.

Try $10. ;)

[Bad Buddha]

Try $10. ;)
Well! You've convinced me! :D

[Harv]

Did Bethesda ever release all the Oblivion DLC on PSN? Nope.

Didn't they release a GOTY edition that had all the content though?

[CES]

You could always grab one of those rechargeable Visa/Mastercard cards from a store and use that to make your purchases as another option.

First I've heard of that. Wonder if it even exists over here in the UK.

[Jackel]

There's not enough people like you for this to change. Let's put it that way.



PSN still makes you "buy" currency in batches. The fact that you don't have to do more math doesn't change how it operates.




The experience is easy. That's not in question. I hit "buy points" bam, it's done. You're complaining about it's lack of exact change. If you hit "buy this" and it just charged you for the exact amount of points you need for the item, you'd have nothing to discuss. So the problem that you've brought up in the last 10 posts is that you don't like having change in your virtual pocket on their servers. Fine, we get that. Hell, I agree with you, it'd be great if they didn't do that. But not enough people care to the degree you do, so it's all moot. There's frankly far more important things in this world to get worked up about then $3 sitting in a virtual account.



You're more than welcome to bring it up. However replying to everyone else on every 3rd post about it without adding much to your argument, yeah, comes across as just whining. If you don't like that, *shrug*. Don't take it personally, it doesn't say anything about you as a person. I'm just pointing out that on this particular issue, you're overdoing it.

Apparently for some people it's not so easy to get the DLC working on the PC (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?p=163161#post163161)

For you, the money is nothing because you'll easily be able to spend that money on your 360. However for other PC Gamers who don't own a MS console, that money is going to sit there until the next time they release something that I'll buy, which is god knows when. Would you really be ok with receiving virtual change (regardless of the amount) on a store with one purchasable item? From a company that has shown time and time again that its commitment to PC gaming is almost non-existent, and that aside from DirectX would just move all gaming to Consoles? (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?p=162858#post162858) or that the head of such store has just recently been fired (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=5001)

MS sure has proven that they are going to be dedicated to improving GFWL haven't they???

I think that even you would be cautious of receiving that "virtual change" if you didn't have your 360 to fallback on.

As for your Steam comment, I think it would be great to be able to establish a virtual change jar with them. Valve has proven that they intend to expand their category of games. The fact that it's not there isn't a huge deal to me though. I'd much rather they continue to spend their R&D on Steam Community.

[Slack3r78]

There's not enough people like you for this to change. Let's put it that way.
Yeah, because PC gamers voting with their wallets has never made Microsoft reconsider (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/22/microsoft-makes-games-for-windows-live-free-for-all/) their GFWL strategy before.

PSN still makes you "buy" currency in batches. The fact that you don't have to do more math doesn't change how it operates.
Then it's equally annoying, but you still have to take into account that there is no other alternative but to play ball with a console system. Microsoft is the only player in the PC market attempting this, and, frankly, they deserve to fail until they come into line with the market. It happened with them trying to charge for GFWL matchmaking, and there's no reason it can't happen again with this points garbage.


The experience is easy. That's not in question. I hit "buy points" bam, it's done. You're complaining about it's lack of exact change. If you hit "buy this" and it just charged you for the exact amount of points you need for the item, you'd have nothing to discuss. So the problem that you've brought up in the last 10 posts is that you don't like having change in your virtual pocket on their servers. Fine, we get that. Hell, I agree with you, it'd be great if they didn't do that. But not enough people care to the degree you do, so it's all moot. There's frankly far more important things in this world to get worked up about then $3 sitting in a virtual account.
Fine, let's play semantics. Getting an ideal customer experience out of this system isn't easy. I don't like being overcharged for thing, even if it's "only" $3.

And God forbid you ever have something menial upset you.

You're more than welcome to bring it up. However replying to everyone else on every 3rd post about it without adding much to your argument, yeah, comes across as just whining. If you don't like that, *shrug*.
I'm sorry. I seem to have misunderstood the purpose of an internet forum. I'll be sure to abstain from participating in conversations about subjects which interest me in the future.

Don't take it personally, it doesn't say anything about you as a person. I'm just pointing out that on this particular issue, you're overdoing it.
When you enter a thread by taking a shit on it whilst hurling childish insults, the tendency is to take it personally.

[Slack3r78]

Actually, I wouldn't call a full expansion pack with a separate serial number if bought at retail, a good example of DLC. A better example on Steam would be... Oh, nothing. Impulse has the Entrenchment "mini-expansion" DLC, but that's about it.
Well, if we're talking about microtransactions based around trying to milk your customers for all they're worth, then, no, that's not available on Steam. There's nothing stopping a developer from releasing smaller content packs via Steam, however.

[Heretic Machine]

For example:

http://store.steampowered.com/app/3990/

Hey, sounds like DLC to me. There are plenty of other expansion packs, etc, available on Steam, as well.

Huh, that is odd... Beyond the Sword didn't require the Steam version, a retail version works just as well (I know, because I have retail Civ IV, and Steam BtS).

Dawn of War II Producer Mark Noseworthy also described their post-launch plans for the game: "We are extremely interested in working with Microsoft to offer several types of free and premium downloadable content through their Games for Windows - LIVE Marketplace. In fact, there may even be some DLC available during the first few weeks after the game’s released if everything goes to plan."

Thanks for the heads up, I was considering buying that game.

[TrackZero]

Apparently for some people it's not so easy to get the DLC working on the PC (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?p=163161#post163161)

Sure... what does that have to do with what we're talking about? We're discussing the GFWL "points" system.

For you, the money is nothing because you'll easily be able to spend that money on your 360. However for other PC Gamers who don't own a MS console, that money is going to sit there until the next time they release something that I'll buy, which is god knows when. Would you really be ok with receiving virtual change (regardless of the amount) on a store with one purchasable item?

And I agreed with that, so thanks for not reading Jackel. Don't turn me into some MS pariah. My point is, it's not that big a deal for the amount Slack was going on about it and it won't be changing anytime soon because there isn't enough people who give a damn. I never denied it isn't a problem. I argued the scale of it.

From a company that has shown time and time again that its commitment to PC gaming is almost non-existent, and that aside from DirectX would just move all gaming to Consoles? (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?p=162858#post162858) or that the head of such store has just recently been fired (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=5001)

Alright, you're going on my "time out" list for assuming things, not reading our discussion and just jumping in. If you want someone to be your MS defender, look elsewhere.

MS sure has proven that they are going to be dedicated to improving GFWL haven't they???

Exactly my point. This will not change, hence it's a waste of time to continue to go on about it. Argh, I should just stop now, but I can't stand seeing you go on and on as if I'm thinking GFWL is a good thing. It's a horribly broken system that's been given no development love and should not be used as a platform (GFW however, is a seperate story) by game developers.

I think that even you would be cautious of receiving that "virtual change" if you didn't have your 360 to fallback on.

Really? You don't say. *facepalm*

As for your Steam comment, I think it would be great to be able to establish a virtual change jar with them. Valve has proven that they intend to expand their category of games. The fact that it's not there isn't a huge deal to me though. I'd much rather they continue to spend their R&D on Steam Community.

There we go, at least you had the stones to reply to the Steam comment. I'm kind of interested in that it's all right for one company to have a change jar and not another in your view though Jackel. Seems a little hypocritical. But, like I said, I personally don't have an issue with "change jar" services, so long as the convenience is there.

Hell, if we want a real online service to be pissed at, it's the EA Downloader. Nothing quite like shelling out $50 for Spore (game quality aside) and then only being able to re-download it for a little while before it's gone forever. Kind of makes "change jars" seem well, like chump change.

[TheKeck]

So, what you guys are telling me is that I can't just buy this content with money? :(

[Telefrog]

Didn't they release a GOTY edition that had all the content though?

As far as I know, the PS3 GotY edition didn't include some of the DLC (http://www.psu.com/The-Elder-Scrolls-IV--Oblivion-GOTY-Edition-Review--a0001651-p0.php) like the Wizard's Tower, Horse Armor (snicker), or some of the other stuff.

With the original game of Oblivion topping out at about 250 hours, you can expect The Knights of the Nine and Shivering Isles expansions another playable 50-70 hours. Yet, still not included is the very expensive downloadable plug-ins, such as the infamous horse armour or Wizard's Tower. However don't fret, downloadable content will arrive to enrich the world of Elder Scrolls soon, for free through the PSN.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That's precious.

[Tron]

I love threads like this...get over it man...you'll live longer.

[Jackel]

Sure... what does that have to do with what we're talking about? We're discussing the GFWL "points" system.

Yeah...and the 1 Item that those points can buy you is? wait for it...wait for it: Fallout 3. So if you're going to make someone buy points for your store...then you should damn well at least get it right.

Exactly my point. This will not change, hence it's a waste of time to continue to go on about it. Argh, I should just stop now, but I can't stand seeing you go on and on as if I'm thinking GFWL is a good thing. It's a horribly broken system that's been given no development love and should not be used as a platform (GFW however, is a seperate story) by game developers.

Like Slacker said, was GFWL matchmaking always free? No....Customer responses to their "pay" system forced them to make it free. So tell me again that it'll never change.

There we go, at least you had the stones to reply to the Steam comment. I'm kind of interested in that it's all right for one company to have a change jar and not another in your view though Jackel. Seems a little hypocritical. But, like I said, I personally don't have an issue with "change jar" services, so long as the convenience is there.

Hell, if we want a real online service to be pissed at, it's the EA Downloader. Nothing quite like shelling out $50 for Spore (game quality aside) and then only being able to re-download it for a little while before it's gone forever. Kind of makes "change jars" seem well, like chump change.

I don't think it's hypocritical. One company offers significant opportunities to spend that change jar, one doesn't.

Look at what happened to EA's Downloader. Did people sit back and take it b/c it seemed like it was the only option? No...people complained because it was a crappy mess. And Look what happened. (http://store.steampowered.com/publisher/Electronic%20Arts/)

I still don't get how you can completely overlook the fact that MS is essentially overcharging its customers to use a broken system. You admit its a horribly broken system. So regardless of the scale. If you weren't able to spend the points on your 360 or your Zune (neither of which I have) would you risk establishing a virtual change jar with a "Broken marketplace". Or would you speak with your wallet and hope that the developers realize that GFWL is a piece of crap and avoid it.

While the money may not be much for us individually. If 500k Fallout PC Owners (numbers are not real, I'm just giving you the idea) buy the dlc and use that virtual change jar. (Not sure on how much those extra points are worth) but lets say 2$ so that comes out to what...1M waiting in MS's bank accounts. Then we see that the next schedule dlc release is 1 month away (feb - Fallout 3)...thats one month worth of interest MS gains by us leaving our money in a store with only 1 item to purchase.

[TrackZero]

Yeah, because PC gamers voting with their wallets has never made Microsoft reconsider (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/22/microsoft-makes-games-for-windows-live-free-for-all/) their GFWL strategy before.

One issue != another. Moot point.

Then it's equally annoying, but you still have to take into account that there is no other alternative but to play ball with a console system. Microsoft is the only player in the PC market attempting this, and, frankly, they deserve to fail until they come into line with the market. It happened with them trying to charge for GFWL matchmaking, and there's no reason it can't happen again with this points garbage.

Well, good luck with that.

Fine, let's play semantics. Getting an ideal customer experience out of this system isn't easy. I don't like being overcharged for thing, even if it's "only" $3.

I can't imagine how many hours of your life have been pissed away speaking to your cell phone company then.

And God forbid you ever have something menial upset you.

Menial is fine, just not ad nauseam. It's like me opening a thread to complain about my shoe company making bad laces and then replying over and over again. I'd expect someone to tell me they're calling the Whaaaambulance.

I'm sorry. I seem to have misunderstood the purpose of an internet forum. I'll be sure to abstain from participating in conversations about subjects which interest me in the future.

I don't know, you're doing a fine job playing the victim, you were born to post on forums. ;)

When you enter a thread by taking a shit on it whilst hurling childish insults, the tendency is to take it personally.

Childish insults? No, whining about something is just that, an action. Having it pointed out to you is not an insult. It's me pointing out a fact. If you can't handle having your actions pointed out to you and consider it an insult, I'm sorry.

Example: Jimmy fucks pigs in his spare time. Someone points out that makes him a pig fucker. Jimmy shouldn't be insulted, he IS being a pig fucker.

[roboninja]

I love threads like this...get over it man...you'll live longer.

As long as "getting over it" means not giving this shitty service your money, I agree.

[Slack3r78]

One issue != another. Moot point
"You're a whiner because this isn't a big deal and will never change, and the fact that Microsoft has changed their position on other aspects of this same service due to customer complaints and lack of patronage in the past is completely irrelevant."

[TrackZero]

Like Slacker said, was GFWL matchmaking always free? No....Customer responses to their "pay" system forced them to make it free. So tell me again that it'll never change.

IT. WILL. NEVER. CHANGE. It's faulty logic to assume that one issue being resolved will automatically make another issue resolve. They're two completely different problems, with different attitudes from the community involved.

I don't think it's hypocritical. One company offers significant opportunities to spend that change jar, one doesn't.

One has been around longer, one hasn't. I could go on with the Sony argument of "potential". But again, I never disagreed that it wasn't broken. Just that no one should give this much of a fuck.

Look at what happened to EA's Downloader. Did people sit back and take it b/c it seemed like it was the only option? No...people complained because it was a crappy mess. And Look what happened. (http://store.steampowered.com/publisher/Electronic%20Arts/)

Yes, because as I said, it was a REAL FUCKING ISSUE. I guess I'm talking to a wall now. "Change Jar" is a minor complaint at best. I'm done debating it.


I still don't get how you can completely overlook the fact that MS is essentially overcharging its customers to use a broken system. You admit its a horribly broken system. So regardless of the scale. If you weren't able to spend the points on your 360 or your Zune (neither of which I have) would you risk establishing a virtual change jar with a "Broken marketplace". Or would you speak with your wallet and hope that the developers realize that GFWL is a piece of crap and avoid it.

I admit GFWL itself is horribly broken. I said that "change jar" is a minor one and it'd be nice if it didn't work that way. You can speak with your wallet all you want, you can oppose this. That's not a problem.

Just be aware I'll consider you a whiner for it, meh.

While the money may not be much for us individually. If 500k Fallout PC Owners (numbers are not real, I'm just giving you the idea) buy the dlc and use that virtual change jar. (Not sure on how much those extra points are worth) but lets say 2$ so that comes out to what...1M waiting in MS's bank accounts. Then we see that the next schedule dlc release is 1 month away (feb - Fallout 3)...thats one month worth of interest MS gains by us leaving our money in a store with only 1 item to purchase.

God forbid MS has some extra money kicking around eh? I didn't realize we were worried about that as an issue. Guess I should be pissed at Blizzard for all the monthly renewals that go through when people aren't playing just because it's a pain to turn off your account. They shouldn't have that money either. *shrug* But I'm not, because I've got better things to do.

[Goronmon]

I love threads like this...get over it man...you'll live longer.Yeah, I agree. People talk too much on CoG. Everyone should just quit posting so damn much. We come here for news, not discussions.

[TrackZero]

"You're a whiner because this isn't a big deal and will never change, and the fact that Microsoft has changed their position on other aspects of this same service due to customer complaints and lack of patronage in the past is completely irrelevant."

When you learn how to read Slack, maybe you can understand this conversation.

The issue is, that this is such a minor issue, not enough people will ever "get behind it" to cause a change, so quit wasting everyones time and drop it.

[Goronmon]

The issue is, that this is such a minor issue, not enough people will ever "get behind it" to cause a change, so quit wasting everyones time and drop it.So, what topics are we allowed to complain about on CoG?

[TrackZero]

Yeah, I agree. People talk too much on CoG. Everyone should just quit posting so damn much. We come here for news, not discussions.

There's discussions about real issues, and discussions about

lkajsdf;lkasdfkljqklj243jkl21l3kj4234

Fuck you guys, all of you, seriously. This thread is trollbait shit. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm done posting for awhile, I've got better stuff to do.

[Slack3r78]

There's discussions about real issues, and discussions about

lkajsdf;lkasdfkljqklj243jkl21l3kj4234

Fuck you guys, all of you, seriously. This thread is trollbait shit. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm done posting for awhile, I've got better stuff to do.
Yeah, good call. Because people disagree with how you prioritize things, act like a three year old and storm out while calling everyone poopyheads. Good job.

The fact that you don't think this is an issue doesn't mean you get carte blanche to shit on the idea that there are people who do.

[TrackZero]

Actually, my IRC rant to Jackel about this pretty much sums everything here up nicely.

(12:39:02 PM) TrackZero: And if you're an "I only play PC" guy, who won't use those $3 worth of points elsewhere. Something tells me you'll get by, you'll make it in this world. Your soul won't be crushed. Your DLC won't become unavailable for download a few months after you bought it, or you won't spend 3 minutes every time you do purchase something by having to re-enter all your CC info. No, you'll be out 3 fucking dollars and won't give a fuck, unless MS has pissed in your goddamn cornflakes.
(12:39:11 PM) TrackZero: Then you'll go on a board and whine like a little fucking bitch about it.
(12:39:17 PM) TrackZero: And troll anyone who dares oppose you.
(12:39:22 PM) TrackZero: OH WHAT A FUCKING WEB YOU WEAVE

Enjoy kids. Time for you all to chime in and try to tear me down, hope your egos are stroked over it. You win.

[fitbabits]

Thread closed. Like old times, sadly.