The Wasted Herbs Episode

[fishbang]

Wednesday’s episode is completely in your way at this link (http://ingamechat.net/audio/IGC20090128.mp3) and won’t move, even if you tell it to.

Any release window with a title-density equal to that of the next six weeks is going to contain some real trash, either as a portion of one game’s content, or as a whole game unto itself. We haven’t had to pick through anything terribly noxious just yet, but our ridiculous enthusiasm is humbled all the same.

The first of the speed-bumps is the confirmation of quick and shallow gameplay in the Fallout 3 Anchorage campaign - quicker and shallower than was expected, and we were prepared ahead of time to be underwhelmed. This will be a minor gripe in hindsight, but no sort of gripe is welcome at the moment.

The second, which I consider more of a speed-Himalaya to my personal enthusiasm, is the content and quality of the Resident Evil 5 demo. I should have maintained my belief that all games in the RE series are worthy of suspicion until they prove themselves worthy of devotion, as it was clearly a mistake for me to get so far out in front of the facts.

[Chris_D]

Hey guys, I just picked up your show again after taking a break. I was wondering if you considered introducing some structure to your show. I think it would improve by leaps and bounds if you had some regular segments. I find the rants/discussions interesting sometimes but I'd like them shuffled into a regular slot. It's pretty conventional but something like the following schedule could work well I think:

- What we've been playing (~20-30 mins)
- This weeks discussion e.g. "Why we miss dedicated servers" (~10-20 mins)
- Some hand picked "hot topic" news - but no more than 3-5 minutes on each (~10-20 mins)
- This week on CoG (~5-10 mins - I'm just thinking as the official CoG podcast, something like "thread of the week" or "a funny thing we read" or "this crazy ass CoG member" could be a good way to tie the podcast back. It could also include emails from listeners).

I like bits of the shows but it just seems just all over the place at times, and some discussions could benefit from a more structured debate, while others drag on too long. Anyway, I think you all definitely have the talent and experience to make a great podcast!

[Psykoboy2]

I don't know that we're very good at a structure or a show plan. I think we've tried and the conversation, for us, felt very stiff and uncomfortable.

[Ravenlock]

For whatever it's worth, I derive great enjoyment out of simply "sitting in" on the conversation you guys have every few days, whether formatted or not. It feels very similar to the talks I have with my own friends about games, when distance and busy lives don't prevent us from doing so.

I think a little bit has arguably been lost from the lack of listener participation (though honestly it's not like I've been emailing you guys with stuff so maybe it's our fault too) ;), but mostly that's me just wishing I could be in the room chatting with you. Which is pretty much what you seem to be aiming for, so I say well done.

[Hawggy]

Itineraries tend to be a bit constraining. As Raven says, it kind of is geared towards making the listener feel he's eavesdropping on a round table discussion. Attempting to structure it (which has taken place more than once) tends to errode the "freestyle" presentation. I just think the IGC guys are too jeans & t-shirt to be regimented, and boy have they (we) tried before, I tell ya.

[Chris_D]

I hear yas. I guess it doesn't work so well for me because much of the discussion just gets tiring and I feel like the participants are sometimes left searching for something clever to say when perhaps the discussion needed to be ended or moved on sometime before. I think having a more proactive host like a Certis (GWJ) or a John Davidson (1UP - OK he's not the host, but he often takes responsibility for moving Garnet and Shane past an overly belabored point) to guide things along would be good.

Apart from the above, having a community segment would probably cater a bit more to the site. Pretty much as suggested above - anything related to the site or forums, or listener emails. I'm not fussed at all about taking listener calls (not that it's probably possible) as they're usually more misses than hits for shows that do them.

Btw, I appreciate you taking the time to read my feedback.

[Hawggy]

Sure thing man. Allow me to thank you for your critque of the show on the hosts' behalf, it has definetly been noted.

[opsin]

I vote for no more structure. I've found a lot of the conversations you guys have been having more and more interesting in the last few weeks than even pre-christmas.
I think it's probably the case that I used to look for the more structured discussions (focusing on NPD, or particularly news) from 1up, before they went down. But I don't think it's changed what I look for from this podcast.

My two cents anyway.

[Chris_D]

I think Cheap Ass Gamer shows you can have structure without being overly focused on news, and also have room for chit chat and rambling type discussions. Not that I'm the biggest fan mind you, just that they're another way to structure a video game podcast.

Btw, I don't even care about the news necessarily being part of it, GWJ shows you can have an outstanding podcast without any news coverage (in the traditional sense that is).

[Raen]

I vote for no more structure. I've found a lot of the conversations you guys have been having more and more interesting in the last few weeks than even pre-christmas.
I think it's probably the case that I used to look for the more structured discussions (focusing on NPD, or particularly news) from 1up, before they went down. But I don't think it's changed what I look for from this podcast.

My two cents anyway.

No structure is good. In fact I love Scott's 'ninja' start to the show, it works really well and makes you feel a lot more involved in the show as was pointed out by James (I think, it may have been Scott) although I assume he was being sarcastic. It really does make you feel like you're involved in a conversation rather than being talked at.

[TrackZero]

I don't know that we're very good at a structure or a show plan. I think we've tried and the conversation, for us, felt very stiff and uncomfortable.

Yeah, for my 2 cents, I know I didn't enjoy the show as much when it was stuck on a "format". It works for some shows, but not for IGC. The "gold" comes through the casual conversations which get into real deep discussions of games, how they affect the player, etc.

[Shrinn]

I'm going to have to echo the fact that I love the eavesdropping on a conversation style more than a structure.

I always love it when you guys throw in "hey, did you see the thread where ----". It makes me feel more involved and just plain care more about what's being said. Plus it's always neat if I took part in the discussion of that thread.

[fishbang]

I hear yas. I guess it doesn't work so well for me because much of the discussion just gets tiring and I feel like the participants are sometimes left searching for something clever to say when perhaps the discussion needed to be ended or moved on sometime before.



We've always tried to capture the essence of conversations we have together off the air, and we've had a bit more success with that since we got all sloppy and dropped the format. However, what you've said here is absolutely true, and we're often painfully aware of it. At least I am. I'm a bit of a boor sometimes in the studio and I step all over the other host's efforts to keep things in line. Like, I'm totally convinced that if I say just one more thing I'll get my point across, and that's not always a good idea.

I honestly wouldn't mind a touch more structure - like what we had when we were running the mailbag segment, and I think you're right about drawing more direct attention to CoG (though I also like the idea of doing it subtly). I should also try to be less of a train wreck sometimes and just let the conversation move on.

And now that you've got me thinking about it, I'm starting to wonder if a heavier hand at editing wouldn't do us a load of good. Excising a lot of those moments when we're reaching or searching or have simply run out of steam. There's always room for improvement.

Btw, I appreciate you taking the time to read my feedback.


Hey, we're the one's who appreciate your time. Thanks to everyone here and elsewhere, actually, who takes the time to let us know what's up. It means more to us than you know.

[Psykoboy2]

As usual, James has said better what I would have said, but it's essentially all there. And we take in ALL the feedback, both those who want structure and those who like the show as is.

We hope to do better in giving you the best of both worlds...a bit like Nazi's and Zombies.

[Suave Peanut]

Ahh, wonderful. Now downloading through my BlackBerry, because UNA's wireless network is slooooow. Also: convenient listening on the go!

Additionally:
How do you guys feel about having guests on the show? I pass through the Montgomery area from time-to-time and thought it would be fun to check out your studio and/or meet the other Alabama colonists. Just an idea.

[Ravenlock]

Glad to hear you enjoyed Boom Blox and de Blob, Scott. :) Did you get a chance to snag Williams Pinball yet?

[Psykoboy2]

Glad to hear you enjoyed Boom Blox and de Blob, Scott. :) Did you get a chance to snag Williams Pinball yet?

Not yet, but I will soon. More likely to buy that one though.

[Straximus]

How do you guys feel about having guests on the show? I pass through the Montgomery area from time-to-time and thought it would be fun to check out your studio and/or meet the other Alabama colonists. Just an idea.

Let us know when you're planning on passing through. If nothing else, maybe we can grab some food and shoot the shit.

[Chris_D]

Thanks again for responding, looking forward to how the show develops in the future. Good luck :).

[Chris_D]

I enjoyed the RE5 discussion in this ep. Wow, what a turn around from the earlier buzz! I never got round to trying the Japanese demo out. I tried when it came out but I had let my gold subscription lapse so no go. Might have to give it a shot.

Btw, on Listen Up (the new 1UP podcast) they had similar thoughts.

[MDPaul]

I prefer the unstructured format of the show, as Ravenlock said, for the feeling of sitting in on a conversation. The casual, relaxed conversation is easy to listen to, and i love the tangents that these can lead to. It does remind me of my own conversations with my gamer friends, and i guess that's why i enjoy it so much, i can relate.

Also, i think Scott does a good job of being 'host', with a well placed sentence here and then, I can tell you're just easing the conversation along and changing the subject when it needs to. Whether you do this on purpose, or i'm just imagining is another thing :P

Anyway, always love the show, just thought i'd throw my opinion in. My first post too! Australia says hi! :P

[Chris_D]

I don't want to continue down the same arguments. But one thing you may want to keep in mind is how the show seems to new comers, especially if they haven't come over from CoG (maybe found on iTunes or something). By not doing a proper intro until the 5 minute mark or so must leave them wondering what the hell they downloaded. I know I've canned new podcasts in less than 5 minutes. Also, associating a voice with a name is important too. So regardless of what point it happens, the host should introduce each member by name and that member should say something (again I'm thinking of the GWJ style here).

Of course, neither the slow intro or knowing who is who is a problem for me now but it might be off putting for some new listeners.

Apart from that, something I was thinking about... how about inserting some breaks. Even if you guys don't necessarily need to take a break, it feels comfortable to me having a short moment where you guys go and then come back. Kind of gives me a natural stopping point. Especially as I wouldn't normally listen to a 90 minute podcast in one sitting.

[Psykoboy2]

Also, i think Scott does a good job of being 'host', with a well placed sentence here and then, I can tell you're just easing the conversation along and changing the subject when it needs to. Whether you do this on purpose, or i'm just imagining is another thing :P

Anyway, always love the show, just thought i'd throw my opinion in. My first post too! Australia says hi! :P

Well, thank you. I'm not sure I actually do it conscientiously or not, but if it's working for you that way, then...Yes! I totally plan for it to happen and everything is coordinated to perfection. :)

And hey, welcome to CoG and thanks for a great first post commending us. Near the beginning of the most recent episode we mention Australia. We seem to have quite the following down that way.

By not doing a proper intro until the 5 minute mark or so must leave them wondering what the hell they downloaded. I know I've canned new podcasts in less than 5 minutes. Also, associating a voice with a name is important too. So regardless of what point it happens, the host should introduce each member by name and that member should say something (again I'm thinking of the GWJ style here).

Apart from that, something I was thinking about... how about inserting some breaks. Even if you guys don't necessarily need to take a break, it feels comfortable to me having a short moment where you guys go and then come back. Kind of gives me a natural stopping point. Especially as I wouldn't normally listen to a 90 minute podcast in one sitting.

That's a great point you bring up there about name to voice association and something we'll work on when we do our recording tonight. Very good point.

As for breaks, we know we've done 90 minute shows in the past but we don't try for that every time we record. In fact, we hope to avoid it. The meat of the show is usually only an hour with the beginning and end filler stretching that out. I'm not sure we could take breaks during the broadcast because if we feel like taking a break, well...that says to us that we're done recording.

We did breaks back when we were actually on the radio and we didn't always like that. It was a great freedom when we weren't watching the clocks and making sure we hit marks in order for us to go to commercials about some "Recycle Guy!" or whatever.

[Ravenlock]

I don't want to continue down the same arguments. But one thing you may want to keep in mind is how the show seems to new comers, especially if they haven't come over from CoG (maybe found on iTunes or something). By not doing a proper intro until the 5 minute mark or so must leave them wondering what the hell they downloaded. I know I've canned new podcasts in less than 5 minutes.

I'm not trying to be the show's stalwart defender here or anything (though who am I kidding, I totally would be), but this is in fact exactly how I found the show back when they were the thing they were before they were In Game Chat. (Of course, In Game Chat is the thing they were back before they were the thing they were before they were In Game Chat. So yeah.) I had no connection to that forum, but got tipped off somewhere that this was a good conversational podcast chatting about games and other nerd culture that I would enjoy, and that's just what I got. Scott & crew brought me to the community, not the other way around.

As for the first 5 minutes thing... yeah, sure, I've done that too, but it's not like the "stealth intros" are substantially different from the content of the rest of the show - in fact, it seems pretty clear that the whole point of them is to immediately immerse you in the sort of informal chat that's going to fill the rest of the episode. Frankly, I would say if a listener is turned off by that sort of thing, well then maybe it's good for them to know that right away, because they're likely to stay turned off for the whole hour. The show doesn't have to appeal to everyone. ;)

I will say that I think the musical intros and outros have always been a highlight of the show in the past, though, so working those in around / with the "stealth intros" somehow might also be a goal to keep in mind.

[Doogie2K]

Might as well chime in here.

I do think you could maybe do something with Scott's ninja intros. Let the tape run until they notice that they should intro, then music and intro. On the whole, though, I'm enjoying the rambling non-structure of it. I get enough structure from 1UP Yours/Listen UP, Giant Bombcast, Rebel FM, etc. that I'm perfectly content with a less-structured, more conversational tone, more fitting with IGC's place as my everyman gaming podcast of record.

Besides, I've always seen the show as being keyed by fishbang's rants. You can't really do it like that with too much structure, I don't think.