Damn kids, get off my lawn!

[Joshkdmw]

One thing has happened since the advent of D&D 4th edition:

I finally understand AD&D players.

I read some of the 4th ed. PHB. I knew there were gonna be changes, but holy crap. I learned to play on 3.0, and the transition to 3.5 was a big damn deal. But the new system is new, confusing, and a little scary to me.

And to think, I always wondered why AD&D players preferred to stay in the past with their outdated rules. Now I get it!

So. Anyone else having trouble with the transition? Anyone successfully made the transition, and can offer advice? I want to keep moving forward with the times, so I know I have to shift. But it's rough.

[pomeroy]

I saw the thread title and thought it was another Gran Torino thread.

[Joshkdmw]

I saw the thread title and thought it was another Gran Torino thread.

That was, in fact, an awesome movie. But not what I hoped to discuss.

[Karak]

So. Anyone else having trouble with the transition? Anyone successfully made the transition, and can offer advice? I want to keep moving forward with the times, so I know I have to shift. But it's rough.

I have moved with ease from pretty much every game system under the sun, Fading Suns, Werewolf, Warhammer, DND 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5...CRASHED right into 4. No one liked it in my group of 20 players. We went to the local shops, the kids there didn't like it. It pretty much...well its a sign of the times. Nothing against the guys and gals who made this because in a way they have to change to make the medium keep up in the videogame world.
So...they made it an MMO. They succeeded incredibly well, just like they wanted. In fact from the begining to the end 4th has been a total success as to what they wanted.
However, I have yet to meet a single person not happier with the older rules or switching to something less...MMO and mathmatical. Its sad actually. They always nerfed classes and skills in the revisions but this is as if they went the opposite way and decided fuck it...NOT a single normal dude in the hourse.
That shopkeeper...yep he is a 1st level Dwarvern Warmaster General 3rd Strip Black Belt.
Watch the fuck out.
Sounds cool, plays boring.
I am sure others do not agree. I have not met them nor do I think I will.
Sort of like aliens.

[Ten19]

The most D&D I played was AD&D 2ED. I found the transition to 3 and 3.5 to be tolerable, with some interesting system changes.

I've played a few games of 4ED, mostly in PbP, and I'm really not finding it as enjoyable... I can appreciate that they're trying to make things simpler for a wider audience, but it just feels less like D&D and more a like pencil and paper MMO (which would be fine, if I hadn't played earlier editions).

[Nameless]

I was entirely open-minded when it came to 4E. Then I saw the rules and was disappointed. I feel that by having so many powers available to the players, they reduce the the amount of creativity on the player-side of the game.

For example, in older editions, you could, say, do a backflip off of a table in order to wind up behind an enemy and then backstab him. There were no specific rules to cover situations like these, the DM adjudicated it.

Now, I'm not saying that there's no freedom to do this in 4E (yet), but with several hundred incredibly specific "powers" in the core rules alone (and splatbooks coming out at about the same rate 3.5s did), it won't be long until we start seeing the aforementioned example specified as a power. And then what do you say to a player who wants to try to do that, but hasn't gained the power yet? Level up more?

I'm not saying 3.5 was immune to this, the amount of splatbooks released were ridiculous, but the core rules were very open to this sort of gaming, which is something 4E lacks.

I have tons of other problems with the system, but that's my biggest gripe. Oh, also, for some reason illusions deal damage. What's up with that?

[zarathstra]

I read the 4th ed rules, and I really didn't like them. If I wanted to play WoW, I'd turn on my computer and reactivate my account. They removed all the classes with any subtly, made every single class a book keeping project, and removed almost all of the little things that made you feel like you were creating a person, instead of a unit in a turn-based strategy game (movement in squares instead of feat, removing the roleplaying type skills and feats, etc.)

I guess they were doing what they had to do to stay current, but it just isn't for me Luckily, my 3rd edition books still exist!

[pseudopseudo]

Reading this makes me feel really, um... glad that I hadn't played any D&D before 4ed?

Kind of a "you can't miss it if you never experienced it"-type thing. I don't like actually roleplaying, so I guess 4ed is better for me in that sense. I have a TON of fun with my group. And I don't get the hate as to "everything is/has a specific power" - when we play, we do crazy/off the wall shit that isn't in any of the books all the time. We can do anything - just rolling the appropriate check for whatever it is.

Then again - I'm sure it's a case of me not knowing how things were before, and if they were any easier/more fun.

[Ten19]

I have a TON of fun with my group. And I don't get the hate as to "everything is/has a specific power" - when we play, we do crazy/off the wall shit that isn't in any of the books all the time. We can do anything - just rolling the appropriate check for whatever it is.
For me, I wasn't really referring to skill checks, the flexibility of those really hasn't changed all that much. More so how they've standardized powers (spells, melee flourishes, etc).

But nevertheless, the most important part of D&D is that your group has fun. If you're enjoying yourself with 4ED, than all the more power to you guys :)

[Joshkdmw]

For me, I wasn't really referring to skill checks, the flexibility of those really hasn't changed all that much. More so how they've standardized powers (spells, melee flourishes, etc).

But nevertheless, the most important part of D&D is that your group has fun. If you're enjoying yourself with 4ED, than all the more power to you guys :)

QFT. Having fun is goal one. I won't decry the people who enjoy the system. But I think I'll stick with 3.5, at least until 5.0 hits.

I read something about Will, strength and skill powers? Or something? So D&D's like Fable, now?

[J Arcane]

I followed every last word out of the developer's mouths prior to the release of 4e.

I adore 3.x you see, I think it's hands down one of the finest RPGs ever designed, and this coming from someone who hated the fuck out of the previous D&D editions.

But every preview just seemed to contain more and more pointless bullshit changes. The design team had quite clearly decided they were just going to do whatever the fuck they pleased, slap the D&D logo on it, and then release it on the assumption that it would sell like hotcakes on logo alone. The level of sheer arrogance and disdain towards the existing players was absolutely staggering.

So I basically just said fuck them, if that's the kinda shit they're going to pull, they don't need my business. IT even left me feeling sort of burnt on 3.x even.

So after a glorious period where I actually had an edition of D&D I liked, I'm now back playing the #2 game, which this time around is Dark Heresy so they tell me, and I'm finding the game quite to my liking, I'm just having a little bit of trouble getting everyone together for a game.

[Virtual Machine]

3E had the same problems as 2E for me, only amplified. In 2E, once you hit level 5 or 6 it just became battles of attrition, slowly whittling away at hit points. 3E is similar but different. at lvls 1-4, 3 and 3.5 are BRUTAL for 1st levels. Even fodder like Orcs and Kobolds can make mincemeat out of a party - this, i love! However once you hit 5-6 your characters become whirling death engines. The average creatures at an equal Challenge rating become fodder, and the epic level stuff is obviously too strong. The game becomes dull. I always prefer a level-less system, where you get skills and attributes that can be increased - you actually feel as though you're getting better, instead of just being given higher numbers, and enemies don't automagically become weaksauce.

I created my first 4E character last weekend, it was a most unpleasant experience. There are rules in there for goddamn AGGRO!!?? We'll be playing our first game tonight, I wouldn't even bother if one of the guys i've been playing with since the beginning wasn't running the game (we both started in '86).

Meanwhile - reading through Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, i'm falling in love with that system (though i did have to tweak combat a little for some added brutality).

[Superman's Dead]

I prefer 3.5 because of all of the customization options available to the DM, and freedom to the players. I love coming up with some crazy shit, and the DM just shrugging and working out the modifiers in his head and telling me to roll a d20.

A group of friends of mine play crazy rules. They do their best to make characters that break the system, and the DM does his best to kill them. When both are competent enough, it's a lot of fun to watch.

The powers in 4E make my level 4 character feel like Superman sometimes, but that's okay with me.

[Trogdor]

I think of 4e as a sidegrade from 3.5. Certainly not better, just different. 3.5, on the other hand, I've always considered to be an improvement over 2e, although as Virtual Machine said, some problems just got worse. Our group rarely bothered to do higher level games, and they were usually very short, mainly because of the stuff he mentioned.

Incidentally, that brings me to one thing I actually like about 4e. HP, skills, and attributes were reined in a lot, so that they wouldn't take off to ridiculous levels. They even took out items that add directly to an attribute (gloves of dex, etc), which I applaud, because those items were so good that they were pretty much a given. If I had a fighter it was assumed that I would have a belt or gauntlets giving me a str boost, whereas in 4e there's no telling what I'll have. Between that and all of the powers, people all have a lot of interesting options in and out of combat.

Still, as much as I like all of those options, I really don't like that every class has so much to keep track of now. That stuff used to just be for spellcasters, and now everybody is saddled with having a "spellbook".

[Arphahat]

3E had the same problems as 2E for me, only amplified. In 2E, once you hit level 5 or 6 it just became battles of attrition, slowly whittling away at hit points. 3E is similar but different. at lvls 1-4, 3 and 3.5 are BRUTAL for 1st levels. Even fodder like Orcs and Kobolds can make mincemeat out of a party - this, i love! However once you hit 5-6 your characters become whirling death engines. The average creatures at an equal Challenge rating become fodder, and the epic level stuff is obviously too strong. The game becomes dull. I always prefer a level-less system, where you get skills and attributes that can be increased - you actually feel as though you're getting better, instead of just being given higher numbers, and enemies don't automagically become weaksauce.

This is what tired me about 3.5, as well. I got pretty burnt out on the uber and how Monty Hall the whole thing needed to be to keep the other characters equal to the mages.

4 seems like they are trying to make the combat more interesting, and the super powers reduce the need for everything to be carrying around +5 rings of Uberness. However, playing out the battles takes forever on the grid. It would be much nicer if we could actually just play this game on a computer, which is what it really seems like it is designed for.

And, it still feels like a bunch of random dice rolls affect the adventure too much. Why not just flip a coin at the beginning and decide if the adventurers are going to be efficient killing machines or blundering retards and save me some time?

Add to this that the group I play with all have jobs and cannot devote the time necessary to making a worthwhile story... shit, I think I am just done with human RPGs.

[Joshkdmw]

...shit, I think I am just done with human RPGs.

After all you just said, it sure looks that way. A bit disenfranchised, are we?

[Nameless]

This is what tired me about 3.5, as well. I got pretty burnt out on the uber and how Monty Hall the whole thing needed to be to keep the other characters equal to the mages.

4 seems like they are trying to make the combat more interesting, and the super powers reduce the need for everything to be carrying around +5 rings of Uberness. However, playing out the battles takes forever on the grid. It would be much nicer if we could actually just play this game on a computer, which is what it really seems like it is designed for.

And, it still feels like a bunch of random dice rolls affect the adventure too much. Why not just flip a coin at the beginning and decide if the adventurers are going to be efficient killing machines or blundering retards and save me some time?

Add to this that the group I play with all have jobs and cannot devote the time necessary to making a worthwhile story... shit, I think I am just done with human RPGs.

It sounds like you might get into a more "rules-light" game like Call of Cthulhu (http://www.chaosium.com/), or World of Darkness (http://www.white-wolf.com/). Combat in these kinds of games tends to be more streamlined, less time-consuming, and less dependent on equipment and skills. These systems are generally more about roleplaying.

As for 3.5, Paizo Publishing is currently undertaking a project to try to fix some of the problems inherent in the system and re-release it as the Pathfinder RPG (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG), which is currently in Beta (you can download the rules for free and check them out) and the final version will be released this August.

I don't mean to sound like a shill, but they're one of the only RPG companies I care about after my disillusionment with 4E. :o

[ShivaX]

It would be much nicer if we could actually just play this game on a computer, which is what it really seems like it is designed for.

See the funny part of this is that they'll never make a turn based D&D game. And the rules are actually pretty terrible for a real-time game (since almost everything involves sliding or pushing someone or something around). So the game is fairly meh for tabletop and hopeless for the computer.

I found it an interesting concept and liked some of it, but really... D&D stops being D&D when your magic-user/wizard stops memorizing spells and your fighters are taunting (marking) crap. The best part of it was on the DM end of things. A lot of the creatures were really cool and they did a great job with their abilities and templates. The rules for stuff like Solo creatures and whatnot was really cool.

The problem is that characters feel like templates too. Characters should be characters, not stat blocks and cards. I never actually played, but just reading the rules you go "this is pretty neat." Then you think about actually playing and realize that whatever character you had in your mind now has to fit in a pre-designed box. And you better be a power-gamer because noones going to care about your quirky whatever, they just want you to roll well when you use your daily.

In a lot of ways D&D has come full circle. It started as rules for minitures, became a role-playing game for a few decades and is now basically little more than rules for minitures again.

Wizards seems to be trying to milk D&D like its WoW right now anyway. All these rules magically co-incide with them making glorified map software and charging people MMO monthly rates to use it. Throw insane DLC on top of it to taste. Its so obvious what they're doing, it kind of makes me sick. TSR used to milk me dry with silly sourcebooks, but that was my own choice. I've noticed their price keeps falling on "D&D Insider" ever time I look, but then again they haven't actually produced a product yet either. Must be hard to take all the free stuff people have already done and tack in some spreadsheets and links to your copyrighted material.

[OrangePulp]

See the funny part of this is that they'll never make a turn based D&D game. And the rules are actually pretty terrible for a real-time game (since almost everything involves sliding or pushing someone or something around). So the game is fairly meh for tabletop and hopeless for the computer.

I think WotC is supposed to roll out some kind of online thing... eventually. I assume it'll play out like what my group (thanks mainly to our dm) have accomplished with MapTools, which has all our powers set up in macros, and can make combat pretty quick. An officially developed program could be even faster.

The problem is that characters feel like templates too. Characters should be characters, not stat blocks and cards. I never actually played, but just reading the rules you go "this is pretty neat." Then you think about actually playing and realize that whatever character you had in your mind now has to fit in a pre-designed box. And you better be a power-gamer because noones going to care about your quirky whatever, they just want you to roll well when you use your daily.

This is I think the reason why my group kinda just lost interest in 4th ed. The characters simply don't feel very defined. A good example of this is comparing spells in previous editions of D&D to the power selections in 4th. D&D has a bunch of 1st level spells, so every 1st level mage could be quite different, depending on what spells he picks. 4th ed has, what, 4 or so powers available per section. That is, at wills, 1st level encounters, 5th level dailies, etc. There are a lot of powers in total, but in those individual selections, there are only a few. And while some powers have levels of viability depending on your build, some are just... better, than others. Which leaves with a case of every character within a certain generic type has very similar power selections.

Even playing as a pure fighter, which didn't have many options in 3.5... in 4th, even though you have more options, it feels like you have a lot less freedom.

[J Arcane]

Actually, the online thing is supposed to deliberately be nothing more than a map, some 3d minis, and a die roller. It doesn't handle any game rules at all, because they don't want people to not have to still buy the corebooks. They're also talking about having some kind of microtransaction or retail redemption code system to buy the minis. And all this on top of the monthly fee. I would stick with MapTools if I were you.

Shiva's comparison to WoW is ever so apt, and it's why I'm not the least bit interested in 4e. The mechanics smack of MMO design, and frankly, most MMOs just aren't that good on a game mechanic level. Powers are little more than buttons that do damage to things with the occasional extra effect, they've brought in cooldowns essentially with the per day/per encounter/per round powers, and of course there's that monthly fee for the online content that seems to be taking up the the majority of their dev time since I see precious few books on the shelf for 4e lately.

[Virtual Machine]

We played our first session last night. The characters were pretty awesome, and the adventure was actually kind of cool (Kev is running a published campaign, which is something i typically never do). The system however, is a pain in the ass. Combat was actually pretty brutal (a group of Kobolds did a solid number on us), and I found we were constantly page flipping to check out abilities and what they do, which was endlessly frustrating. Some of the game mechanics are worthless (marking targets, healing surges), and the sheer amount of abilities we each had didn't really add anything positive to the game.

One solution/house rule we did decide to use in relation to healing surges:

- Healing surges can only be used when at rest, and they must be role-played. For example: My Dragonborn fighter, Zur shortfang, would sit back on a tuft of grass or otherwise refreshing land and light his clay pipe for a few puffs whilst chronicling the day's events in his journal.

I LOVE my character though; He's a runt at 5' 4", has no breath weapon thanks to a disfigurement when he was an infant, and is mute. He was tossed by his tribe, his real parents were killed for having given birth to a defect, and he was raised from childhood by a human mother and father. Zur's father was an armchair adventurer and Faerunian historian, which is where he inherited his love of history, reading, and writing. His best friend is a zealot Paladin from the church of Torm who taught him to wield a blade - A greatsword which is actually taller than he is and which he carries around hoisted on one shoulder a-la Toshiro Mifune in Seven Samurai.

Everyone seems pretty fond of their characters actually, which certainly helps us rise above the system and actually have a good time.

We're also NOT using mini's. Using better judgment and common sense to discern our positions on the battlefield.

[Ondo]

All these rules magically co-incide with them making glorified map software and charging people MMO monthly rates to use it.
Except that they haven't made glorified map software yet. They've got a couple of online magazines, and charge people a bit less than magazine rates to read them. I'm not seeing the problem here.

TSR used to milk me dry with silly sourcebooks, but that was my own choice.
:confused: And Wizards is different how?

I've noticed their price keeps falling on "D&D Insider" ever time I look
You must have only looked once, since the prices have been constant since launch.

[Superman's Dead]

My half-elf has a greatsword he carries the same way! =D

I like surges...without them, our party would be all kinds of dead a few times over. I don't know if those encounters are typical for the edition or Clark just hates us, but I think they're just difficult enough to use in combat situations but friendly to multiple battles a-day to work in the system.

[Virtual Machine]

My half-elf has a greatsword he carries the same way! =D

I like surges...without them, our party would be all kinds of dead a few times over. I don't know if those encounters are typical for the edition or Clark just hates us, but I think they're just difficult enough to use in combat situations but friendly to multiple battles a-day to work in the system.

combat is definitely tougher than i expected. It seems like AC's, Attack bonuses and Hit points are considerably higher, while Damage remains standard. It really prolongs a fight more than i'd like. A mob of Kobolds basically brought 2 members of our party to near death, and my character (with 25 HP at lvl 1) was brought to a "bloodied" state. And it was just them slowly "chipping away" at us. The kind of prolonged combat that i always hated running, and hate playing just as much. I prefer combat to be fast and brutal for both players and enemies. It keeps people on their toes, keeps the fear of death in there, and generally keeps things more narrative focused instead of roll-hit-damage-roll-hit-damage-lather-rinse-repeat.

The best systems i've seen for combat/damage management are still Shadowrun (2nd, 3rd, or especially 4th edition) Legend of the Five Rings, and Dream Pod 9's Silhouette system (Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles).

[Superman's Dead]

I haven't played...any of those systems.

I don't know if you've played any higher levels, but the more advanced powers you get (at least by level 4) really help. My warlord has one that deals 3 dice of whatever damage dice he's rolling, plus the bonus, two other powers that deal 2d whatever. Eventually they just give you bigger guns in the forms of bonuses and powers.

[J Arcane]

I prefer combat to be fast and brutal for both players and enemies.
You should really, really, really take a look at Dark Heresy then. The combat system is brilliant, and exactly what you describe. It's a joy to run.

[Virtual Machine]

I haven't played...any of those systems.

I don't know if you've played any higher levels, but the more advanced powers you get (at least by level 4) really help. My warlord has one that deals 3 dice of whatever damage dice he's rolling, plus the bonus, two other powers that deal 2d whatever. Eventually they just give you bigger guns in the forms of bonuses and powers.

Like chaining ability combos in wow? ;)

Which leads me to my other problem with 4E ... but that horse is beaten, dead, buried, and pissed on.

For a joke next week when we sit down to play, i'm gonna have my spare keyboard in front of me with an overlay template labeled with all of my abilities - just to watch veins pop out in my DM's forehead :)

EDIT: Shadowrun is an amazing, amazing game when you have someone who knows what to do with the setting (probably the most unique, imaginative, all encompassing setting i've ever seen.)
On the flipside, it can be boring as shit when people who've never seen Blade Runner try to run it ;)

[Virtual Machine]

You should really, really, really take a look at Dark Heresy then. The combat system is brilliant, and exactly what you describe. It's a joy to run.

sorry for the double post.

It's by Fantasy Flight, yeah? I'm curious as to whether or not the system is similar to Grimm, which was pretty damn cool.

The main reason i haven't tried Dark Heresy is that i haven't been able to get past my initial disappointment that it wasn't actually the 40k answer to Warhammer fantasy. as is typical of FF, the book is beautiful.

[TrackZero]

Finally got around to reading 4th edition. Just, wow. Every iteration since 2nd edition just seems to keep dumbing down the system. They may as well had labeled it "we want to be world of warcraft" and been done with it.

[TrackZero]

-
EDIT: Shadowrun is an amazing, amazing game when you have someone who knows what to do with the setting (probably the most unique, imaginative, all encompassing setting i've ever seen.)

I prefer Rifts myself, but it too has seen better days.

[J Arcane]

sorry for the double post.

It's by Fantasy Flight, yeah? I'm curious as to whether or not the system is similar to Grimm, which was pretty damn cool.

The main reason i haven't tried Dark Heresy is that i haven't been able to get past my initial disappointment that it wasn't actually the 40k answer to Warhammer fantasy. as is typical of FF, the book is beautiful.
It was by Black Industries originally, then GW let their RPG fear overtake them again and they canned the company and sold off the license to FFG.

The system is still more similar to Warhammer Fantasy than anything else. The main change is just the career system has been switched from jumping around to different careers to pick up different skills, to focusing on a more specific career, with a few different possible paths to head down within it.

I would like to get WHFRP2 next, if I bother to get another RPG at any point in the future, which I've resolved won't be until I've at least gotten a few sessions of a campaign out of all the damn DH books I bought.

[Virtual Machine]

I prefer Rifts myself, but it too has seen better days.

Rifts was kinda neat, but i've always hated the Palladium system with intensity bordering on homicidal. Character creation was a page-flipping, obtuse nightmare, the layout and design of their books had no rhyme or reason (and judging by the recently released Robotech: Shadow Chronicles book - still doesn't) and their S.D.C stuff with regards to scale didn't make a whole lot of sense. Still, i have respect for Palladium as a company for being one of the old guard, from the Fasa/West End/Chaosium/old school TSR days, that still soldiers on and manages to release and support product. Kudos to em for that. There aren't a great many companies in this particular industry that weathered the storm (I miss Fasa!)

[rifter]

The best world ever, is the Shadowspawn/shadowbane, from Pallaidum. WONDERFUL horresque system... and I despise horror.

As others have pointed out, D&D insider is not JUST online RPG mapping software. It also has a character generator, that is really simple, and Dragon/Dungeon magazines. Honestly, DDI is cheaper, than my subscriptions to Dungeon and Dragon magazines. I think people that bash it, don't look at the full picture of what you get.

As for 4e, it is different. I don't know why people REALLY don't get it. They (finally) slew the sacred cows. Wizards memorizing spells, and then blowing them with each cast NEVER made sense to me. But, it was a staple. It NEEDED killed. Though, they completely nerfed the venerable magic missile with it. :-(

The new edition does flow from MMORPGs. And quite honestly, calling it WoW is just weird. It is showing its MMORPG pedigree by defining roles. Tank, Healer, DPS, etc. I don't consider that a terrible thing, really. Just different. I will be rolling up the 1st adventure in the WotC series tomorrow. It has been a lot of fun. We already have another GM that will run the next round. Yes, there is a lot of page flipping... because the rules are NEW. 3/3.5 suffered from the same. What 4e does, is engages EVERYONE. You don't have a healbot (err.. .cleric) anymore. You don't have a wizard that blows his load then hides in the back, completely useless... In my eyes, that is a GREAT thing. Everyone gets a part.

Another thing that 4e is supposed to have fixed, was the sweet spot, from 3/3.5. The sweet spot went from about lvl 5 to about lvl 12. (+/- a couple of levels depending on builds).

Another thing I love, is that monsters ROCK. The "lowly" kobold party drops a PC party... THAT is awesome!!! They have added cannon fodder, which is a LOT of fun. It really makes those classes that are NOT melee masters helpful, for clearing out the chafe while the damage dealers go after the meat.

4e is just a different system. I agree, that it REALLY deviates from previous versions of the rules. Though, basing a system in 2008 on a system originated in the 1970s... seems retarded. I am glad that modern games are duplicating exactly the look and feel of games I played on my 2600. Though, I have met people that say classic game is always better than modern gaming, because it is all about the play, not the eye-candy... I, personally, disagree. It is all part of the package.

[Smoof]

My friend and I like 4e, save one of them. We still play it like we played 3.5 and just use the rules as a general way to guide us. I really like the changes to spellcasting, etc and the overall simplification of everything.

I can't really get a coherent thought out right now...too early.

Anyway, I find 4e fun. But, I think my friends and I are switching over to (well, at least one of my groups) the Everquest PnP RPG, which seems to be a lot of fun. We've only played a few times so far, but it's been a lot of fun, because we all know the world very well; which isn't the case for us with D&D. Though we switch off DM duties and I think I need to get my friends out of the MMO style quest mentality, which I plan to do with my sweet ass quest...

[Virtual Machine]

I picked up the EQ D20 hardcover for less than 10 bones. I really dug what they did with the magic system, and Everquest is definitely a pretty cool setting - overall it's one of the prettier books i've seen, but we just never got around to trying it.

[J Arcane]

EQ looked kinda neat, but in some ways it seemed to emulate the MMO a little too well, right down to classes with piles of dead levels, and an actual system for MMO-style quest rewards.

[Borthcollective]

It was by Black Industries originally, then GW let their RPG fear overtake them again and they canned the company and sold off the license to FFG.



Actually it was written by Green Ronin and Published by Black Industries.

The career system in Dark Heresy is way better than the career system in WFRP.

As for 4th edition, we are having fun playing the game. I for one, as the Wizard, feel like I actually get to do stuff in a fight. I have played TMNT. Deadlands (Real and D20), Shadowrun, Mechwarrior 3rd, AD&D 2-4 Paranoia, and a couple others. I don't have problems with the system at all. I do feel it's very much like an MMO, but that doesn't bother me, because unlike a MMO, I can limit my playing of this to only 1 day a week.

[J Arcane]

Actually it was written by Green Ronin and Published by Black Industries.

Nope. Dark Heresy was actually written in house, with a little consulting from GR, mostly in the form of borrowing stuff from WFRP. Most of the writing is actually done by Black Library regular authors, I think even Dan Abnett got some stuff in there. It was WFRP that was written largely by GR.

Still, it's moot now, because now neither company is attached to it anymore, though I hope that FFG can at least keep some contributions coming from the Black Library guys. Dark Heresy's writing was really fantastic.

[TrackZero]

The new edition does flow from MMORPGs. And quite honestly, calling it WoW is just weird. It is showing its MMORPG pedigree by defining roles. Tank, Healer, DPS, etc. I don't consider that a terrible thing, really. Just different. I will be rolling up the 1st adventure in the WotC series tomorrow. It has been a lot of fun. We already have another GM that will run the next round. Yes, there is a lot of page flipping... because the rules are NEW. 3/3.5 suffered from the same. What 4e does, is engages EVERYONE. You don't have a healbot (err.. .cleric) anymore. You don't have a wizard that blows his load then hides in the back, completely useless... In my eyes, that is a GREAT thing. Everyone gets a part.


My issue with assigning roles is the game becomes more based around combat and statistics/tactics than about role-playing characters (who all don't have to be based around their abilities/powers). That's why I was a big fan of Beyond the Supernatural. Great horror game, just with lots of normal people with very basic skills trying to get through fucked up situations.

[Borthcollective]

It's weird for me I guess. Combat has never been about Roleplaying. That's what all the other parts are for.

[rifter]

My issue with assigning roles is the game becomes more based around combat and statistics/tactics than about role-playing characters (who all don't have to be based around their abilities/powers). That's why I was a big fan of Beyond the Supernatural. Great horror game, just with lots of normal people with very basic skills trying to get through fucked up situations.

The Role-playing, in D&D is a lot more freeform. Most of the rules deal with combat, and touch lightly on the actual role playing. That leaves that end of the spectrum WIDE open. I guess that is another part that I don't get... You don't need a rule for everything... and can make things up on the fly, for D&D... And you get people that complain about too many rules in D&D, yet, when there are not any, we get complaints that there are not rules written FOR doing that action. Social RPG type stuff, really needs a GM to adjudicate it. That is really what sets it apart from just roll playing.

As for BTSN, I still like Nightspawn/Nightbane better... but Beyond rules actually dove tail in QUITE nicely, and they are VERY similar in feel.

[TrackZero]

The Role-playing, in D&D is a lot more freeform. Most of the rules deal with combat, and touch lightly on the actual role playing. That leaves that end of the spectrum WIDE open. I guess that is another part that I don't get... You don't need a rule for everything... and can make things up on the fly, for D&D... And you get people that complain about too many rules in D&D, yet, when there are not any, we get complaints that there are not rules written FOR doing that action. Social RPG type stuff, really needs a GM to adjudicate it. That is really what sets it apart from just roll playing.

As for BTSN, I still like Nightspawn/Nightbane better... but Beyond rules actually dove tail in QUITE nicely, and they are VERY similar in feel.

I didn't say you needed rules for Roleyplaying. Simply that D&D4e is structured around combat (with respective roles) for the bulk of the game. You can interpret that differently if you want, but it's how I see it.

(And it's just BTS, heh.)

[Scull]

I didn't say you needed rules for Roleyplaying. Simply that D&D4e is structured around combat (with respective roles) for the bulk of the game. You can interpret that differently if you want, but it's how I see it.

(And it's just BTS, heh.)
Of course the rules are combat focused. That's really the only part of the game where you need some sort of mechanical adjudication. D&D (and really most other role playing games) is cops and robbers with rules for what happens when you say "bang bang". I have to say that the more I play 4E the more I dig where they are going with the system. The combat feels better, generally speaking, than other versions of D&D. It flows faster and has more of an entertainment value.

The RP aspects outside of combat (and stupid skill challenges) hasn't changed at all. We still get up to the same antics as always, and when combat arises, every one gets to be more involved and more visceral in their actions. Yes, the combat has been turned into a miniatures/MMO/board game quite a lot, but there is still plenty to venture out and do outside the written rules. If you can't play out side the rules on the page, then I don't think pen and paper RPGs are quite the right fit for you. 4E tries to cover the major bases and give you plenty of options, but it is hardly the entirety of what you can do.