Handheld Legitimacy

[bean]

So I borrowed back the Nintendo DS I gave to my sister last year because I wanted to try "The World Ends with You" and this game proves the handheld's right to exist (legitimacy). It's stylish, fun, and innovative. I'm adoring it and I don't want to return my sister's DS.

What, if any, other games on the DS and PSP are so good that they prove that these handhelds are legitimate?

For the DS, I've played everything decent up until December 2007, so please list only games from this year. For the PSP, I only owned it for about six months and thus had only played Lumines and that awful Metal Gear Acid before I sold it. Thus any games that prove the PSP's legitimacy are welcome.

[pomeroy]

I would say God of War is pretty damn wonderful. Crisis Core is great as well. Crush does things in a puzzle game I've never done before.

I really love my PSP.

[Iron Past]

Patapon is exatly what I look for in handheld. Fun as hell, charming, and easy to pick up and play for a little bit then put away. I get the feeling it's lengthy enough to last a bit, too.

[astranoir]

Patapon is exatly what I look for in handheld. Fun as hell, charming, and easy to pick up and play for a little bit then put away. I get the feeling it's lengthy enough to last a bit, too.

I would have to agree that Patapon is fantastic :) Echochrome is also amazing and innovative, if you don't already have it for the PS3.

[Gorvi]

They already are legitimate, they're in need no "proving" legitimacy. You can look to many other threads on this very forum if you're interested in what people think are the top games for each platform.

[Superman's Dead]

I was considering trading in my DS until I heard about the Chrono Trigger release.

[Hemalin]

Why can't there be more threads (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=3833) asking (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=4166) for recommendations (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2889) on games (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2899)? It is so tedious scrolling down the front page.

[Philonious]

Jeanne D'Arc if you haven't played it and enjoy SRPGs... Love that game.

[BLeeP]

There are quite a few games worth owning a PSP for. Both of the Metal Gear AC!D games are amazing, as is Portable Ops. As mentioned, LocoRoco and Patapon are tons of fun. Ultimate Ghouls n' Ghost, as well as any Capcom release for the PSP for that matter (they might as well have made the console themselves if you were an early adopter). WipEout is fun, even if you don't like racing games. I always really enjoyed Exit, too. Just lots of good stuff out there.

[Ravenlock]

Games I can remember in '08 that rocked my DS (either through purchase or rental):

Ninja Gaiden Dragon Sword
Professor Layton and the Curious Village
Bangai-O Spirits
Dragon Quest IV, Final Fantasy IV remakes
Civilization: Revolutions
Advance Wars: Days of Ruin
Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Ring of Fates
Space Invaders Extreme
Spider-Man: Web of Shadows (totally different from the console versions and shockingly awesome)
Metal Slug 7
Chrono Trigger

That list oughta' keep anybody busy. I've also heard good things about Call of Duty: World at War DS (I liked CoD4 DS alright), Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood, Tecmo Bowl, Age of Empires Mythologies, and Robocalypse.

[bean]

They already are legitimate, they're in need no "proving" legitimacy.
This is a term (or the use of a term) you aren't familiar with but which is often used in communication and persuasive speaking. Just take it for granted that no one is making fun of you or any of the things you like. . . or look it up.

[bean]

Both of the Metal Gear AC!D games are amazing,
What? Okay, obviously I need to choose whichever games you don't recommend.

[bean]

Why can't there be more threads (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=3833) asking (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=4166) for recommendations (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2889) on games (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2899)? It is so tedious scrolling down the front page.
This isn't a game recommendation thread. This is supposed to be about games that prove the legitimacy of the handhelds. I'd explain this more, but I don't want to make it easy for Gorvi. ;)

[pomeroy]

This is a term (or the use of a term) you aren't familiar with but which is often used in communication and persuasive speaking. Just take it for granted that no one is making fun of you or any of the things you like. . . or look it up.
What? Okay, obviously I need to choose whichever games you don't recommend.
This isn't a game recommendation thread. This is supposed to be about games that prove the legitimacy of the handhelds. I'd explain this more, but I don't want to make it easy for Gorvi. ;)

You really are an ass, aren't you? Just working to make sure you get those dick points.

[Ravenlock]

I too would be curious to hear what you consider required for "legitimacy", because I don't suspect that whatever criteria you're using are in any way going to be objective or agreed upon.

That said, of the list of DS games I posted, I think Ninja Gaiden DS and Professor Layton, like The World Ends With You, are fine examples of games that actually need the DS's unique capabilities to be as enjoyable and worthwhile as they are. The other games on the list are very good, but could have been done on any system.

[BLeeP]

What? Okay, obviously I need to choose whichever games you don't recommend.

This isn't a game recommendation thread. This is supposed to be about games that prove the legitimacy of the handhelds. I'd explain this more, but I don't want to make it easy for Gorvi. ;)

Obviously you are having an identity crisis, thread.

Also, handhelds have been legitimate since Game & Watch, if not earlier.

I kind of have to agree with Pomeroy (despite him making me cry in another thread :() on this. This thread reeks of flame bait.

[Hemalin]

Oh Mr. Bean, you were so much more interesting with your slapstick humor and child-like mannerisms. I'd be really curious to hear what you think makes any of the other consoles "legitimate".
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i264/Hemalin/mr-bean.jpg

[J Arcane]

I'd say the fact that the handhelds have been giving TV consoles a run for their money in sales for some time now is more than enough to earn them "legitimacy".

[BlackPete]

They're portable. That alone proves their legitamacy.

[Gorvi]

Bleh, it was late when I posted that, that sentence makes no sense now.

Regardless of the gibberish I posted before, portables justify their existence just fine with a number of excellent games that many of us have mentioned in threads previously where people were asking for recommendations. I'm not going to get into the portables debate with you again, bean, because it was a circular argument, but if you'd like to find more games that legitimize portables in your eyes, checking those threads would be a good jumping off point.

Side note: The first Metal Gear Ac!d is horribly explained, so unless you take a good chunk of time to fully understand it the game seems awful. The second MGA, however, is excellent in that it's very clear what you're doing (the mechanics of it all) and once you get that down, it's a shitload of fun.

EDIT: And just to make this post a bit more constructive, bean, if you're looking for a portable game, try Tales of the World: Radient Mythology (PSP). You seem to be a Tales fan from what you've said of the 360 game, and even though I don't like the series, I know I've heard good things from people who do enjoy Tales games.

[bean]

They're portable. That alone proves their legitamacy.
True as entertainment devices. How about as a delivery method for art (a medium)?

[National Kato]

Can someone please explain the rules for this thread? I don't want to upset bean by posting my thoughts.

[Rock Bandit]

This isn't a game recommendation thread. This is supposed to be about games that prove the legitimacy of the handhelds. I'd explain this more, but I don't want to make it easy for Gorvi. ;)

Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening for the Gameboy solidified the legitimacy of handhelds as serious gaming devices (and not just Tetris players) way back in '93. It's taken you a while to get to the party, but better late than never.

To bring the topic up to the present day, if you're going to be spending some quality time with the DS you need to pick up Hotel Dusk: Room 215 or I'll slice your fucking eyeball with a razor.

[Doctor Setebos]

What, if any, other games on the DS and PSP are so good that they prove that these handhelds are legitimate?But what could be considered "good"? It's so subjective. In this very thread, you derided Katslover's praise of Metal Gear Solid AC!D, thereby proving the inherent subjectivity and personal taste involved in assessing a game's quality. So, essentially, there is no way to substantially "prove" a handheld's legitimacy. It is up to every person to prove it unto themselves. With their hearts.

http://setebos.fathomthat.org/images/random/The_More_You_Know.jpg

[Gorvi]

Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening for the Gameboy solidified the legitimacy of handhelds as serious gaming devices (and not just Tetris players) way back in '93. It's taken you a while to get to the party, but better late than never.
That game was excellent, I must have played through it at least 3 times. I never did get around the GBC DX version with the extra stuff. I wouldn't say it was the first game that solidified it, but it was great.
To bring the topic up to the present day, if you're going to be spending some quality time with the DS you need to pick up Hotel Dusk: Room 215 or I'll slice your fucking eyeball with a razor.
Also another fantastic game. Good stuff.

[National Kato]

To bring the topic up to the present day, if you're going to be spending some quality time with the DS you need to pick up Hotel Dusk: Room 215 or I'll slice your fucking eyeball with a razor.

*holds one hand over right eye*

I'm playing through this now for the first time. I'm enjoying it as an interactive pulp novel, but I'm hoping some major revelations are coming soon (I'm on the 10-11 pm chapter) as some of it is a bit slow.

[Rock Bandit]

*holds one hand over right eye*

I'm playing through this now for the first time. I'm enjoying it as an interactive pulp novel, but I'm hoping some major revelations are coming soon (I'm on the 10-11 pm chapter) as some of it is a bit slow.

Ever seen Un Chien Andalou?

Don't worry things start snowballing and all these seemingly unrelated threads start twisting together in one devious little ball of yarn.

[National Kato]

Ever seen Un Chien Andalou?


I wanna grow...up to be...be a debaser.

:D

[Disgustipated]

This is an excellent troll thread. Good troll, bean.

Anyways, if you want to prove the 'legitimacy' (what the fuck is that even supposed to bean, oops, mean?) of the DS, try out Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword.

Anyhow, I reported this thread for being a piece of shit vehicle for bean to take out his retard-angst against handhelds on the rest of us. I suggest you guys do the same.

[bean]

But what could be considered "good"? It's so subjective. . . It is up to every person to prove it unto themselves. With their hearts.
This is both a true and interesting statement. I'm not asking that people agree on one objective truth, but that they support their subjective view. The first couple of responses (and several others throughout the thread) are good examples of this.

Which games for these handhelds prove their legitimacy to you? If you are uninterested in the question or simply insist that they are merely entertainment devices and thus the bar for legitimacy is so low as to make the question pointless, then that is also a position, and not one that I'll argue against directly. Unlike me, you may have found "The World Ends with You" to be completely artless and to have not brought anything new to gaming or art.

[Gorvi]

I don't think most of us even look at the games on the handhelds like that anymore. The PSP and DS were "legitimate" to me at least before they were even purchased based on what I knew of the libraries before hand.

What makes any platform legitimate other than good games that are only available on that platform? That's why I (and others) pointed you in the direction of the game recommendation threads. A console is only as legitimate as it's library and that's where you'll find what many of us think are the best games in their respective libraries. Or are you looking for a thinned down "best of the best" kind of breakdown?

[bean]

Can someone please explain the rules for this thread? I don't want to upset bean by posting my thoughts.
lol. You're right, I am being a bit of a intelligentsia ass about not explaining it. Read my last post and you'll get the idea. Legitimacy is usually talked about when people are considering what works of art are "classics" and/or should be studied. It is a quality that is subjective and is usually defined as a part of someone's answer to the question, but it contemplates things like:
Is it worthwhile?
Is it in some way new?
Does it inspire emotion or growth?

It also asks the question that most readers seem to be focused on: Is it effective? It is an important question (the most important in my opinion as I like popular art and think popularity is a sign of success). However, it is just one of several questions.

To bring the topic up to the present day, if you're going to be spending some quality time with the DS you need to pick up Hotel Dusk: Room 215 or I'll slice your fucking eyeball with a razor.
I've put it in my Gamefly list along with Professor Layton. Can you tell me why you feel it is effective, worthwhile, new, and whether or not it inspires emotion?

[National Kato]

lol. You're right, I am being a bit of a intelligentsia ass about not explaining it.

Well, I understood the question. I just wasn't sure what you wanted to hear.

Honestly, I don't see this question being any different from the 'are games art?' line of thinking. Of course a handheld game can be worthwhile and inspire emotion and growth. They play games. And most of us have long ago understood that videogames can do all these things.

The hardware doesn't matter; the software does.

[bean]

What makes any platform legitimate other than good games that are only available on that platform? A console is only as legitimate as it's library and that's where you'll find what many of us think are the best games in their respective libraries.
I don't know that I completely agree with this statement. It is the games on a piece of hardware that create legitimacy, but the hardware's special features are often what make the experience "new". For instance, TWEWY is innovative because of the touch-screen controls, and the action taking place in both screens. This could not be done on the PSP or the Gameboy. Likewise, the PS2, Xbox, and Wii would not be capable of displaying the number of enemies in Dead Rising and the large number of enemies is what gives Dead Rising it's charm. . . it feels like a zombie movie in which you are being completely overwhelmed by the undead. Likewise, games that bring up technical achievements like the water effects in Bioschock and Uncharted are limited to hardware capable of achieving technical advancements (PS3 and 360). I expect the main bone of contention in people arguing the legitimacy of the Wii would be around whether or not the motion controllers have caused a net gain or loss. . . or if the concept of net gain is ridiculous as any gain of something new is still a gain and should not be averaged against the failures of the device.

So I'd agree that legitimacy is shown in games, but I do not agree that it is divorced from the hardware.

[Gorvi]

Now that's another subject entirely, one I wish I could really devote some time to.

[bean]

Honestly, I don't see this question being any different from the 'are games art?' line of thinking. Of course a handheld game can be worthwhile and inspire emotion and growth. They play games. And most of us have long ago understood that videogames can do all these things.

The hardware doesn't matter; the software does.
Okay, so what you are saying is that since we both agree that video games CAN be art, then any video game medium CAN be a medium for art. Are you telling me that it is silly to ask whether or not a whole artistic medium is legitimate when the question should be only asked in regards to specific works?

As if I'm asking whether or not canvas is a legitimate medium for art, and you are saying that it is a stupid question. . . it depends on the painting.

If this is what you are saying, then it is certainly a good attack on my premise, but here's the thing. Video games are forced to be different based on the console on which they are made in much the same way that a painting made with oils will be different from one made with water colors. Therefore, each console and handheld may or may not be legitimate.

Or perhaps you are just very liberal in applying legitimacy. Would you consider macaroni art legitimate? Btw, if you do, that is a respectable position. Many people take a position that anything can be worthwhile and I've seen some pretty impressive macaroni art.

[Rock Bandit]

I've put it in my Gamefly list along with Professor Layton. Can you tell me why you feel it is effective, worthwhile, new, and whether or not it inspires emotion?

It's a great little pulp detective story in the spirit of a Chandler novel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Chandler) complete with a MacGuffin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mcguffin) (the "wish" room). You play through unraveling small, seemingly unrelated mysteries that soon start to weave through each other in a web that soon entangles the main characters own haunted past. The gameplay mechanics make great use of the DS' features including the mic and actually having to close then open the DS at one point. The art style is a fantastic sketch style (think A-Ha video).

The biggest drawback would be the classic adventure story hang ups of "Ok, what do I do now? I know it involves this doohicky but how does the game want me to use it?"

[JayVe]

Oh lord.

Look. If you don't like handhelds, then you don't like them. But this thread is nothing more than a means to spout some bullshit rationalization about WHY. It is a narcissistic and completely misguided.

Handhelds and their games are legitimate gaming experiences. How that fits into Bean's narrow definition is completely aside the point.

There are a ton of portable game suggestion threads that do NOT smack of self-centered arrogance. Someone is too scared of getting off their high horse.

I'm with Disgustipated. Starting a thread about 'legitimate (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291US304&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:legitimate&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title)' portable games, then acting like a complete asshat (like pomery pointed out (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showpost.php?p=134777&postcount=16)) when the idiocy is called out is poor form for the whole community.

[National Kato]

Or perhaps you are just very liberal in applying legitimacy. Would you consider macaroni art legitimate? Btw, if you do, that is a respectable position. Many people take a position that anything can be worthwhile and I've seen some pretty impressive macaroni art.

This. I've always been of the mind that art is subjective. The question, "what is art?" has been debated for generations by people much more educated in the medium than I. It's not something you're likely to answer, unless the only answer you need is the one for yourself.

I believe videogames can be art. Not all titles are, naturally. While the console hardware defines, to an extent, how that art is presented, I don't believe it qualifies or disqualifies a title by what it can or cannot do. That is, I believe the simplicity of a game like Professor Layton or echochrome (which some might even call derivative) is as 'artful' as the complexities of Bioshock or Crysis (from a technological standpoint). What places these diverse titles into the same category as 'Art?' Ultimately, the experience and how that experience affects the audience.

[JayVe]

Would you consider macaroni art legitimate? Btw, if you do, that is a respectable position. Many people take a position that anything can be worthwhile and I've seen some pretty impressive macaroni art.
Yes. Macaroni art is legitimate. It does not matter WHAT you are using to make art. Art is the result of creativity, and not materials. People make Art out of everything. Art is the result of the human creative process, which knows no bounds. Etch-A-Sketch can be an instrument of art as much as paint and brush.

[bean]

This. I've always been of the mind that art is subjective. The question, "what is art?" has been debated for generations by people much more educated in the medium than I. It's not something you're likely to answer, unless the only answer you need is the one for yourself.
It's a discussion I like to have about games, and one that I have firm opinions about on the PC and the consoles, but that I am not certain about with handhelds as I've played them very much less than consoles and PC games.

I believe videogames can be art. Not all titles are, naturally. While the console hardware defines, to an extent, how that art is presented, I don't believe it qualifies or disqualifies a title by what it can or cannot do.
I think I can agree with this. A medium and/or console creates limitations and boundaries by it's very nature, but great artists find ways to create things that are new, important, and emotional within those limitations and/or enhance them through the limitations.

[National Kato]

I think I can agree with this. A medium and/or console creates limitations and boundaries by it's very nature, but great artists find ways to create things that are new, important, and emotional within those limitations and/or enhance them through the limitations.

Of course. What's more artful? A haiku or a sonnet? Satie's Gymnopedies or Beethoven's Ninth? Limits typically help an artist, in my opinion. By that argument, a handheld title should bring out the best in a developer. But I'm not ready to ride that horse yet.

[J Arcane]

As someone who played countless games on his Palm long before getting a DS, there's nothing bloody "innovative" about using a touch screen for games.

[JayVe]

As someone who played countless games on his Palm long before getting a DS, there's nothing bloody "innovative" about using a touch screen for games.

I agree, and I disagree. I've been a Palm user since the Palm Professional. Yes, there have been touch-screen games, but nothing as innovative as the Nintendo DS' software.

The innovation of the DS comes into the whole package. Touch-screen by itself isn't very innovative. But build a Game System that is the first to include a touch-screen, and you are getting somewhere. Then add in all of the other game system innovations, such as a microphone, WiFi and 2 screens, and the Nintendo DS ia a VERY innovative Game System.

The individual technologies aren't innovative. The union and application of them is QUOTE innovative. Atop that, the game designers can innovate new control schemes and interactions in games, adding even more innovation to the system through new software.

[bean]

As someone who played countless games on his Palm long before getting a DS, there's nothing bloody "innovative" about using a touch screen for games.
So you agree that games prove legitimacy and that the console or handheld limitations and strengths are merely aspects of the medium?

[Mike Kelehan]

There are only a few DS games, like Elite Beat Agents, that I'd rather play on the DS than on a TV. I'd love to play Order of Ecclesia on a big screen, or Professor Layton, or Phoenix Wright.

[JayVe]

So you agree that games prove legitimacy and that the console or handheld limitations and strengths are merely aspects of the medium?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

What definition of legitimate (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1C1GGLS_enUS291US304&pwst=1&defl=en&q=define:legitimate&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title) are you using?

of marriages and offspring; recognized as lawful
legalize: make legal; "Marijuana should be legalized"
based on known statements or events or conditions; "rain was a logical expectation, given the time of year"
show or affirm to be just and legitimate
in accordance with recognized or accepted standards or principles; "legitimate advertising practices"
make (an illegitimate child) legitimate; declare the legitimacy of (someone); "They legitimized their natural child"
lawful: authorized, sanctioned by, or in accordance with law; "a legitimate government"
Are you trying to say handheld games aren't legal? Or that they aren't created by real game developers and are illegitimate? That handheld games don't conform to standards or principles?

How on Earth can a game be not legitimate?
What game on this planet is illegitimate?

[JayVe]

There are only a few DS games, like Elite Beat Agents, that I'd rather play on the DS than on a TV. I'd love to play Order of Ecclesia on a big screen, or Professor Layton, or Phoenix Wright.

I have no problem with this and understand the sentiments completely. There are some portable games I'd prefer to play on the big screen as well. Does that somehow make the portable renditions 'illegitimate' games?

[bean]

There are only a few DS games, like Elite Beat Agents, that I'd rather play on the DS than on a TV. I'd love to play Order of Ecclesia on a big screen, or Professor Layton, or Phoenix Wright.
So are you saying that Elite Beat Agents legitimizes the DS, but that these other games are good but are rendered less good by the limitations of the medium. Remember, the main strength of the medium is portability.

[J Arcane]

So you agree that games prove legitimacy and that the console or handheld limitations and strengths are merely aspects of the medium?
I guess if you want to put it that way. I don't see the touchscreen as anything more than another input peripheral, no different from the games I played on my Palm, or a mouse on a PC. I've yet to see a game do anything I haven't seen either of those do before.

I will say that input method is probably still the one thing that will have the most effect on a game's gameplay. FPS on console struggled for many years simply because the available control methods simply weren't precise enough. It was the N64 that really managed to make it shine, and it was mainly because of what is still the most accurate analog control stick ever put in a gamepad. RTS and MMOs both still pretty much don't exist on consoles because a gamepad just can't keep up with the flexibility of a mouse and keyboard. Conversely, platformer games on the PC don't tend to do as well, because the motion of a keyboard just isn't fluid enough for that kind of rapid action, and most PC gamers don't own gamepads.

[JayVe]

What the hell is an illegit game system?

[bean]

How on Earth can a game be not legitimate?
Legitimacy has a specific usage in relationship to art criticism that has been explained throughout the thread. You are either not reading the thread or are feigning ignorance specifically to flame and derail the thread into personal attacks. You've done this twice now without a successful derail, and I won't reply to subsequent attempts. You've also had a few posts that added to the discussion, and if you continue with those I will definitely read and consider them.

[JayVe]

I guess if you want to put it that way. I don't see the touchscreen as anything more than another input peripheral, no different from the games I played on my Palm, or a mouse on a PC. I've yet to see a game do anything I haven't seen either of those do before.

I will say that input method is probably still the one thing that will have the most effect on a game's gameplay. FPS on console struggled for many years simply because the available control methods simply weren't precise enough. It was the N64 that really managed to make it shine, and it was mainly because of what is still the most accurate analog control stick ever put in a gamepad. RTS and MMOs both still pretty much don't exist on consoles because a gamepad just can't keep up with the flexibility of a mouse and keyboard. Conversely, platformer games on the PC don't tend to do as well, because the motion of a keyboard just isn't fluid enough for that kind of rapid action, and most PC gamers don't own gamepads.
You mentioned PCs, Palm devices, and just about every console ever made.

If certain genre work better with certain input methods, then every system has some form of limitations. PCs don't do platformers well, consoles don't do RTS well. Taking these limitations into account, are any of the platforms you discussed above considered "illegitimate"?

[JayVe]

Legitimacy has a specific usage in relationship to art criticism that has been explained throughout the thread. You are either not reading the thread or are feigning ignorance specifically to flame and derail the thread into personal attacks.

No.

You are not using the word "Legitimacy" in any real way.

Name me an illegitimate game or system.

[bean]

I will say that input method is probably still the one thing that will have the most effect on a game's gameplay. FPS on console struggled for many years simply because the available control methods simply weren't precise enough. It was the N64 that really managed to make it shine, and it was mainly because of what is still the most accurate analog control stick ever put in a gamepad. RTS and MMOs both still pretty much don't exist on consoles because a gamepad just can't keep up with the flexibility of a mouse and keyboard. Conversely, platformer games on the PC don't tend to do as well, because the motion of a keyboard just isn't fluid enough for that kind of rapid action, and most PC gamers don't own gamepads.

Alright, I tend to agree, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here as I think this is interesting.

So you think that the input device is a more important aspect of a video game medium than the technical aspects (aspects = limitations and strengths)? While TWEWY is impossible on the Xbox 360 without adding a mouse, Dead Rising (and pretty much all PS3 and Xbox 360 games) are impossible on the Wii due to technical problems. An approximation is being made, but it has so few enemies on screen and such a poor overall presentation that the feeling of being overwhelmed by zombies that is a key to the game's charm will be absent.

[J Arcane]

Alright, I tend to agree, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here as I think this is interesting.

So you think that the input device is a more important aspect of a video game medium than the technical aspects (aspects = limitations and strengths)? While TWEWY is impossible on the Xbox 360 without adding a mouse, Dead Rising (and pretty much all PS3 and Xbox 360 games) are impossible on the Wii due to technical problems. An approximation is being made, but it has so few enemies on screen and such a poor overall presentation that the feeling of being overwhelmed by zombies that is a key to the game's charm will be absent.
I'm not much of a graphics whore, it comes from spending almost your entire gaming life being behind whatever hardware curve is present, whether it's console generation or PC hardware specs.

I think you can make a hell of a game regardless of what the available CPU and GPU power is, if you're clever enough to put in the effort. Gameplay is largely independent of technical specifications, and on the rare occasion that technical limitations rear their head, a clever programmer can figure out how to make it work anyway.

I can't think of any recent games that couldn't exist without the right powered system. Crysis would still be the same gameplay if the game had been done on the old FarCry engine, it just wouldn't be as pretty. I find, in fact, that games that lean on visual fidelity to harshly are often using it as a crutch for poor gameplay. Crysis is a great example here.

Definitely, strong visuals can add to the immersiveness of an experience, but I'd put that down as much to quality of art direction as I would to actual technical skill, as plenty of games get released for the same hardware and the same specs, but look wildly different in actual visual punch. Assassin's Creed and Gears of War both run on the same systems, but I think Assassin's Creed is absolutely gorgeous, while GoW is dull shit, and the art direction is really the culprit here. I've seen the concept art for both, and I think even outside the gaming medium, AC had the better artists working on it.

Another example I'm fond of using is WoW vs. EQ2. Both were contemporary to each other in terms of release time, both had very different approaches. WoW focused on art direction and gameplay, EQ2 spent most of it's focus pushing hardware limits. The end result was that WoW looked plain better, despite being technologically inferior, but it was the massive improvements to MMO gameplay that made it take over the genre.

This very thread also serves as a further example of the importance of gameplay over graphics, because saleswise, as I've noted, the handhelds have been taking over the market. The Wii is also technically inferior to the other two consoles, and yet it's bowling them both over in sales because people are more interested in the games it has to offer.

Input device has a direct effect on how one interacts with a game, but a good game would still be a good game "demaked" down to lower graphics requirements.

[bean]

Nice reply J Arcane, and I'll come up with a good response to it later (if no one else does). I enjoyed reading it.

[RandoM51]

I think it might be the other way around, you're not legitimate enough for handheld gaming.

[Vyzov]

Wasn't the DS for awhile outselling ever other system combined? I haven't followed the monthly numbers for awhile so I don't know how it's doing now, but I'm pretty sure if the DS doesn't have a right to exist, no other console does either.

[Mike Kelehan]

So are you saying that Elite Beat Agents legitimizes the DS, but that these other games are good but are rendered less good by the limitations of the medium. Remember, the main strength of the medium is portability.

I'm saying that I, personally, would rather play EBA on the DS than anywhere else, and would rather play Mega Man ZX, Dragon Quest, Theresia, and any other game that doesn't involve the touchscreen on my TV. As for whether it's a "legitimate" system or not, well, I guess I don't really follow the question.

[iHap]

http://i40.tinypic.com/10z0pp2.jpg

This thread is now about Crazy French Knights!

[cp#]

LET'S HAVE A BALL!

z8NcE6BmGlo

[JayVe]

As for whether it's a "legitimate" system or not, well, I guess I don't really follow the question.
That is because the original question does not make any sense.

There is no such thing as an illegitimate console, therefore; any question asking to help validate the legitimacy of any console is null.

People can dislike portable systems for many reasons. People may prefer some games on some systems more, or prefer input methods more than others. Some games lend themselves better to portables than home systems and vice-versa. Atop everything, is personal preference, which can not be denied. Yet none of that has any bearing whatsoever on portable systems being legitimate or not.

[Rock Bandit]

Name me an illegitimate game or system.

Cd-i. No one wants to claim parentage of that bastard child.

[biosc1]

All I know is that I am seeing more and more PSP's and DS's in the hands of people commuting into work these days...and they range from the young to the old.

Perhaps it's not a question of "legitimacy", but a question of acceptance.

Cd-i. No one wants to claim parentage of that bastard child.

Come on...Zelda was great ;)

[RandoM51]

Sega 32x.
Virtual Boy.

[JayVe]

Cd-i. No one wants to claim parentage of that bastard child.
Good one! :D

Now, is the Nintendo DS or the PSP anywhere near the level of CDi simply because they are portable? Both handhelds have a thriving library, a developer community, strong official retail channels, and more of an installed base than the current generation of home consoles.

To discount portables as legitimate systems is completely preposterous.

[iHap]

http://i40.tinypic.com/10mspsj.jpg

bbbbfffffffftttttt!

[JayVe]

Perhaps it's not a question of "legitimacy", but a question of acceptance.Bingo!

You hit the nail on the head. This 'legitimacy' issue is an issue inside someone, and not a truth. Handheld consoles are completely a legitimate form of gaming. It is about time people start accepting the facts.

[Rock Bandit]

One handheld I'm sad never took off was the Sega Nomad. Play your Genesis carts on the go! Thankfully the 300 Genesis collections Sega puts out yearly have remedied that.

[Hemalin]

You mentioned PCs, Palm devices, and just about every console ever made.

If certain genre work better with certain input methods, then every system has some form of limitations. PCs don't do platformers well, consoles don't do RTS well. Taking these limitations into account, are any of the platforms you discussed above considered "illegitimate"?
Plug a controller in and platformers work perfectly. And the PC once again proves it is the only "legitimate" gaming system.

Those bastard consoles shall continue not knowing the answer to the question posed on us by one of our greatest philosophers: "Who is your daddy and what does he do?"

[crazyD]

One handheld I'm sad never took off was the Sega Nomad. Play your Genesis carts on the go! Thankfully the 300 Genesis collections Sega puts out yearly have remedied that.

Good reasons behind it failing though. It weighed 50 pounds, and burned through 12 AAs in 15 minutes.

[JayVe]

Plug a controller in and platformers work perfectly. And the PC once again proves it is the only "legitimate" gaming system.

Those bastard consoles shall continue not knowing the answer to the question posed on us by one of our greatest philosophers: "Who is your daddy and what does he do?"

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/PCvsConsole.jpg

[Rock Bandit]

Good reasons behind it failing though. It weighed 50 pounds, and burned through 12 AAs in 15 minutes.

That kind of experience is good for a young gamer, builds character. Damn kids today with their rechargable batteries and touch screens and baggy pants and the listening to The Coldplays and their pierced I don't know whats....

[JayVe]

That kind of experience is good for a young gamer, builds character. Damn kids today with their rechargable batteries and touch screens and baggy pants and the listening to The Coldplays and their pierced I don't know whats....

Jeebus! This post had me rolling. Got that 'crotchety-old-man' down pat, don't ya. :D

Back when I played handhelds, they weighed 50 lbs!

[Gorvi]

That kind of experience is good for a young gamer, builds character. Damn kids today with their rechargable batteries and touch screens and baggy pants and the listening to The Coldplays and their pierced I don't know whats....
They should all be made to play a Lynx as punishment!

[Rock Bandit]

They should all be made to play a Lynx as punishment!

http://www.pugo.org/media/collection/console/atari_lynx.jpg

Agh, flashback!

[Gorvi]

http://www.pugo.org/media/collection/console/atari_lynx.jpg

Agh, flashback!
Man, those things were ugly. They took 6 batteries too, didn't they? I think the Lynx also doubled as a boat anchor.

[Mike Kelehan]

Man, those things were ugly.

Yes.

They took 6 batteries too, didn't they?

Yes.

I think the Lynx also doubled as a boat anchor.

Yes.

[Bone]

There is no such thing as an illegitimate console, therefore; any question asking to help validate the legitimacy of any console is null.I mostly agree with you, but the Nokia N-Gage was illegitimate to me. I honestly believe that they did not truly understand gaming, but merely saw gaming as a gimmick to be added to their phone.

Combined with the fact that it was a terrible, sidetalkin' phone, it tried to play two roles and failed at both of them.

[Doctor Setebos]

This thread just spiralled out of control.

Thought it was kind of simple at first, now, not so much.And that's how you know you're on Colony of Gamers. ;)

[Zero]

That kind of experience is good for a young gamer, builds character. Damn kids today with their rechargable batteries and touch screens and baggy pants and the listening to The Coldplays and their pierced I don't know whats....

Pfft, lol nub. I have an official Sega rechargeable battery for my Nomad. It doesn't last any longer than standard batteries though. :(

EDIT: And yes, the OP reeks of flame-bait wanking.

[zarathstra]

They should all be made to play a Lynx as punishment!

My aunt had a Lynx and it wasn't TERRIBLE. Sure, it was kinda big, but the screen was amazing for its time.

[Restlessavenger]

I still have my Lynx and a number of games for it. I took it out a couple weeks ago though and found that the glass screen cover had actually cracked. I'm going to have to find someplace online that I can purchase a replacement screen.

[total]

Sega 32x.
Virtual Boy.

The best thing about the 32x was Mortal Kombat 2. It was the closest you could get to the arcade without atrocious loading times.

I loved my Virtual Boy though. I honestly did enjoy that system. It is completely understandable why it flopped, but I still had some fun times with it. Of course I got the system and half the games for it for like $50 at KB Toys when Nintendo killed it. I never got any of the headaches that people always talked about with it either. Fucking Telero boxer ftw.

[Urizen]

I see where bean is trying to go with this thread and applaud him for that, but the truth is that his debate hinges on the hardware limitations of portable devices. If we accept the DS to be more powerful than a SNES and a PSP to be on par with a PS1, and we can say those grandfather systems had the ability to create deep and meaningful play experiences, it's a moot point to raise the issue of legitimacy in and of itself on the portable systems.

[iHap]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2vdmccy.jpg

[Widgetcraft]

I see where bean is trying to go with this thread and applaud him for that, but the truth is that his debate hinges on the hardware limitations of portable devices. If we accept the DS to be more powerful than a SNES and a PSP to be on par with a PS1, and we can say those grandfather systems had the ability to create deep and meaningful play experiences, it's a moot point to raise the issue of legitimacy in and of itself on the portable systems.

Eh, the PSP is pretty much on par with the PS2, not the PS1.

[J Arcane]

I see where bean is trying to go with this thread and applaud him for that, but the truth is that his debate hinges on the hardware limitations of portable devices. If we accept the DS to be more powerful than a SNES and a PSP to be on par with a PS1, and we can say those grandfather systems had the ability to create deep and meaningful play experiences, it's a moot point to raise the issue of legitimacy in and of itself on the portable systems.
The PSP is far closer to the PS2 in terms of capability, which is why it can run PS1 games in emulation. It's mainly held back by a lack of RAM. Many of the better PSP games don't really look that different than the console versions.

So if the point is hardware, well, the PSP is pretty well in line with the machine that is still the best selling and most used console in history, so I'd say it holds up quite well there.

The DS is closer to the N64, which puts it as a bit dated, and does wind up limiting a lot of the 3d ability, though I was actually fairly impressed with Metroid, and the screens for the Call of Duty games look pretty good from the screens I've seen so long as you factor in how much getting blown up to PC screen size harms the image.

[Sl1pstream]

Super Mario Land
Tetris

[bean]

I see where bean is trying to go with this thread and applaud him for that, but the truth is that his debate hinges on the hardware limitations of portable devices. If we accept the DS to be more powerful than a SNES and a PSP to be on par with a PS1, and we can say those grandfather systems had the ability to create deep and meaningful play experiences, it's a moot point to raise the issue of legitimacy in and of itself on the portable systems.
Limitations (and strengths) are just a byproduct of the discussion. It is supposed to be a discussion of what games on the handhelds are important.

[BlackPete]

Limitations (and strengths) are just a byproduct of the discussion. It is supposed to be a discussion of what games on the handhelds are important.

Yeesh, this thread is still going on?

What games are important... ugh. Are you serious?

Rather than going into a list of awesome games to play, I'll use a simple example: Disgaea.

That game is an uber powerlevelling game where you can level to 9999. This involves an obscene number of hours. Because of this, I far far far FAR prefer the handheld version as opposed to the console version because I don't want to spend all those hours on the living room sofa. I can play this game while commuting instead. Or while in the bathroom. Or while sitting on the the top of a mountain getting some sun. Try doing that with a console.

The DS is also perfect for Sudoku, Puzzle Quest, and other short and "quick" games. Sure, they also exist in XBLA, but the experience is different.

[Hemalin]

Limitations (and strengths) are just a byproduct of the discussion. It is supposed to be a discussion of what games on the handhelds are important.
They're video games. None of them are important.

[Urizen]

They're video games. None of them are important.

I disagree vehemently. They are important precisely because they are games.

[JayVe]

http://i39.tinypic.com/2vdmccy.jpg

This has been delicious. Thanks for the side-meme. :D

[Variable Gear]

Handhelds don't need to be legitimized. They provide a small screen to play smaller games.

End of story.

[Ancalagon]

You know, I must say, I think the DS is an awesome piece of work.

Yeah, its graphics arent as good as an XBox 360. Its 3D capabilities arent quite up to an n64 or PS1 (well..... sort of). But, compared to a SNES, or a Genesis, its way better. And it fits in my hand. And its batteries last forever. And it has some really cool games, like 2d platformers, that arent made for other platforms anymore.

[Purple Santa]

What the hell is an illegit game system?
Well if a PSP and a DS ran off together one night, I guess that would produce something illegitimate :)
Cd-i. No one wants to claim parentage of that bastard child.
Hey I think I had one of those ;)
They should all be made to play a Lynx as punishment!
I was punished. Someone bought me one for xmas one year...

[Disgustipated]

I see where bean is trying to go with this thread and applaud him for that, but the truth is that his debate hinges on the hardware limitations of portable devices. If we accept the DS to be more powerful than a SNES and a PSP to be on par with a PS1, and we can say those grandfather systems had the ability to create deep and meaningful play experiences, it's a moot point to raise the issue of legitimacy in and of itself on the portable systems.

Except the DS is more powerful than the N64, and the PSP is closer to a PS2 in power than a PS1. Which just makes them that much more legit, yo.

[Spectre-7]

More importantly, I'd like to know which handheld systems are in fact too legit to quit. I'd very much like to own a portable which meets this criterion.

And now, I believe we can all agree that it's motherfuckin' Hammer time:
Cdk1gwWH-Cg

[mister slim]

Clearly bean's using 'legitimate' in the same sense as 'legitimate theater'. Using that standard the DS is legitimate, if it is being used to play Picross, with the sound off.