Elika vs The Dog

[SonofSeth]

I don't know about that dog from Fable 2, but I'm half way trough Prince of Persia and I'm having a mini crush on Elika :o

So, my question would be to those who played both, PoP and Fable 2, who or what gave you a bigger emotional impact, Elika or the dog?

Please no spoilers until I finish the game.

[Grifter]

Elika is most definitely a much better character than the dog in Fable 2. As amusing as the dog was I had very little emotional attachment to it where as Elika I liked and PoP is a better game because of her the dog on the other hand could have been removed and Fable 2 would not have felt that different. I also think PoP was a better game than Fable 2.

Remember to talk to her at the beginning of all the levels, not only are the conversations funny but most of the story is told within those dialogues I loved PoP and can't wait for the sequel.

[Stoke]

I'd have to go with the dog. Right from the start I was more attached to the dog than I was Elika the whole time I played. Every time a baddie kicked my dog he went to the top of my shit list. Elika, on the other hand, could have gotten run over and I would have had to debate over whether I cared enough to pursue the driver.

[Banacek]

I spent 4 hours in Fable 2 learning new ways to smile. My vote goes for Elika.

[menage]

A bit of topic, but I was thinking about the dog yesterday. I think Fable 2 without the dog would have been a whole lot worse. I'd even put him on the same pedestal as Argo from Shadow of the Colossus.

I love how digging for treasure actually has a solid meaning now (It negates the whole "hey, let's dig here because the game tells me to" idea), he definitely grows along with your personality (mine has red eyes already), and now I'm playing this evil bitch from hell (in the game mind you) he's becoming sort of the only thing I got who cares for my character unquestionably. Also the fact that you can just leave him to rot actually makes him real, and it defines your character as well.

The way I saw Elika is like in Ico. It adds story depth and gameplay mechanics. But it seemed more like a tool to add those mechanics than actually fleshing out a part of the gameworld. Mind you, I haven't seen much of the game.

[Narradisall]

The dog!

Somehow some of the lines in PoP were so cliche it made me cringed.

Plus I kept falling over edges so often if I see her bloody hand ONE MORE TIME I may chop the thing off.

[Jeffool]

A bit of topic, but I was thinking about the dog yesterday. I think Fable 2 without the dog would have been a whole lot worse. I'd even put him on the same pedestal as Argo from Shadow of the Colossus. Wow. I thought the dog was so bland that this almost hurt my feelings.

While I agree that the dog was better than 'blinking icon' for something like digging treasure, he didn't do anything else for me. In fact, for me he didn't do anything other than bark at treasure, and sometimes get hit by bad guys. Maybe if the rest of the world even knew he was there... That seriously bugged me. Why does it matter if I name my dog Steve McQueen if no one even notices him? *sigh* He may as well have been an icon, as far as I'm concerned.

Though, as corny as all of the Prince/Elrika dialogue was, there were a few times I chuckled, so, she wins.

[Narradisall]

Wow. I thought the dog was so bland that this almost hurt my feelings.

While I agree that the dog was better than 'blinking icon' for something like digging treasure, he didn't do anything else for me. In fact, for me he didn't do anything other than bark at treasure, and sometimes get hit by bad guys. Maybe if the rest of the world even knew he was there... That seriously bugged me. Why does it matter if I name my dog Steve McQueen if no one even notices him? *sigh* He may as well have been an icon, as far as I'm concerned.

Though, as corny as all of the Prince/Elrika dialogue was, there were a few times I chuckled, so, she wins.

Define rest of the world?

Do you mean game world?

Cause in my playthrough, other NPC's interacted with the dog, he finished off the occasional knocked down enemy (not as combat handy as I would have liked).

All Elika did was cancel out the need for a save/reload screen, get knocked on her arse in boss fights and have to get saved. Her saving grace was the optional backstory and some hilarious cut scenes, but even some of them were a tiny bit annoying.

I considered the dog interacted with the game world a whole lot more than Elika, although she didn't have much besides the baddies and prince to interact with.

[Disgustipated]

They're both bitches. Just getting that outta the way.

[Jeffool]

I didn't notice the world noticing my dog at all, except when he growled at them or he pissed on them. *shrug*

That said, yeah, there wasn't much for Elika to interact with. Though, I do agree with what you said earlier that the hand being old after the first few times. You'd think they could change it up a bit, or just do it without the cutscene.

[SonofSeth]

That said, yeah, there wasn't much for Elika to interact with. Though, I do agree with what you said earlier that the hand being old after the first few times. You'd think they could change it up a bit, or just do it without the cutscene.

Or maybe, you know, not fall so much? :p

[menage]

Wow. I thought the dog was so bland that this almost hurt my feelings.

While I agree that the dog was better than 'blinking icon' for something like digging treasure, he didn't do anything else for me. In fact, for me he didn't do anything other than bark at treasure, and sometimes get hit by bad guys. Maybe if the rest of the world even knew he was there... That seriously bugged me. Why does it matter if I name my dog Steve McQueen if no one even notices him? *sigh* He may as well have been an icon, as far as I'm concerned.

Though, as corny as all of the Prince/Elrika dialogue was, there were a few times I chuckled, so, she wins.

But the rest of the world did notice him. Yesterday a woman in Bowerstone actually slapped my dog in the face and said that dogs should be on a leesh or something (can't remember the exact words she said), I know cause I got angry and started insulting the woman. Then after that some random guy suddenly started petting him. Hammer notices him a lot during her part of the game. Etc.

[Deadend]

I found the dog to give me more emotional attachment, as the dog is not needed for the Fable 2 to work. Elika on the other hand is the Y button, aside from when she gets hit due to bad timing on the Y hits, she doesn't really... do anything in the world.

The dog also wags his tail, barks, and you can play fetch with him. I also like that the dog runs ahead of me most of the time, tail wagging and looking back over his shoulder at me, barking me on. Possibly the Fable 2 dog is the best virtual pet I have seen, so yeah, I dig him.

[KingGorilla]

I don't know about the dog in Fable, but that broad is annoying as hell. And I really have yet to grasp what the purpose was in that character being in there.

[Deadend]

I don't know about the dog in Fable, but that broad is annoying as hell. And I really have yet to grasp what the purpose was in that character being in there.

To try and recapture the banter of the Prince and Farrah from Sands of Time.

[Orca]

The dog. It was there to help out and didn't want to talk constantly.

[TrackZero]

I don't know about that dog from Fable 2, but I'm half way trough Prince of Persia and I'm having a mini crush on Elika :o

So, my question would be to those who played both, PoP and Fable 2, who or what gave you a bigger emotional impact, Elika or the dog?

Please no spoilers until I finish the game.

Not really a fair judgement. Since when you lose the dog, it can be permanent (for a game that keeps going). Losing Elika is too short a time span (where you realize how fucking hard it is without her there). Honestly, if we were talking about a direct comparison, I miss Elika more. At least she talked. My dog I only really missed for the purposes of digging shit up. Though I think a comparison between the two is completely faulty in it's logic. FO3 and Fable 2's dogs are a far better comparison.

[SonofSeth]

Not really a fair judgement. Since when you lose the dog, it can be permanent (for a game that keeps going). Losing Elika is too short a time span (where you realize how fucking hard it is without her there). Honestly, if we were talking about a direct comparison, I miss Elika more. At least she talked. My dog I only really missed for the purposes of digging shit up. Though I think a comparison between the two is completely faulty in it's logic. FO3 and Fable 2's dogs are a far better comparison.

I guess that's true. The reason I brought it up is because I really like how Elika works in the game and feel kinda bad on some level when she gets hit or when she's sad and I remembered watching Peter Molyneux talking about the dog in a way that he was there to trigger an emotional response, not as a useful tool, but an emotion trigger.

I haven't played Fable, so I wanted to see what people who played both have to say. It's hard to quantify emotions as it is, let alone when comparing two so different examples.

[KingGorilla]

To try and recapture the banter of the Prince and Farrah from Sands of Time.

I mean more game wise, why am I carrying around this sack of potatoes that can shoot pretty lights out. Maybe that is my issue, bitch is as useless as Jubilee. The recent PoP's games are design and writing issues with me. Why bother prompting me to press the conversation button when only ten percent of those are pertinent to plot or character development? Why limit the range on those to immediate proximity. Why have that coupled with traditional cutscenes? And the dialog is somewhere between hokey and schlocky, with a dash of sophomoric in its conception.

But I will say this much, Alyx Vance sets a pretty high bar when it comes to companion characters.

[Banacek]

But I will say this much, Alyx Vance sets a pretty high bar when it comes to companion characters.

Valve sets the bar high with everything they do :)

[Grifter]

I mean more game wise, why am I carrying around this sack of potatoes that can shoot pretty lights out. Maybe that is my issue, bitch is as useless as Jubilee.

You've either never played the game or you have the memory of a gold fish.

[KingGorilla]

No, pretty useless. When platforming, a sack of potatoes...Oh she may tap you in the ass for a double jump(really special and earth shattering feature there). In fights she is a set of pretty lights in case you get bored with the sword and claw.

[Grifter]

No, pretty useless. When platforming, a sack of potatoes...Oh she may tap you in the ass for a double jump(really special and earth shattering feature there). In fights she is a set of pretty lights in case you get bored with the sword and claw.

Considering you couldn't pass a single level much yet the entire game without her I say she is pretty damn important but hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your whining.

[Narradisall]

Considering you couldn't pass a single level much yet the entire game without her I say she is pretty damn important but hey, let's not let facts get in the way of your whining.

Thats a bit flawed reasoning when they built the game round her being there.

I think he means from what she actually provides in the game is a double jump (other games have done this before without a supporting character), a third attack type, some dialoge, etc.

The dog is purely a different way of working the whole UI map and marker type stuff. More along the lines of the way Dead Space's UI is built into the suit.

The whole Elika/Dog comparison is flawed as they aren't really comparible.

As a supporting character I found Elika pretty poor. I felt nothing for her, found her lines cheesy and at points cringeworthy. In a comparison to the dog in making you actually feel something for the character she failed for me personally. I was much more upset for my dog taking a shot for me than when Elika died, hell, I wanted to leave her dead and call it a day, but had to save her..... .

[Grifter]

Thats a bit flawed reasoning when they built the game round her being there.

That can be said about any support character, item or ability in a game. It's not like the dog escaped from some digital animal shelter and ended up in the game by accident. Other games allowed you to dig without having to depend on a dog. Elika also acts as a guide taking on some of the ability normally seen in the map UI. The only difference between Elika and the dog when it comes to functionality is that Elika is mandatory for PoP to work the way it does and outside of treasure hunting the dog is not for Fable 2.

I'm not trying to change your mind because this topic is purely opinion based but the argument that Elika is useless is false no matter how you look at it yet if some one played through Fable 2 without getting any treasure then for them the dog would have been useless rather they liked him or not would be beside the point.

[Narradisall]

True,

I still had more emotional attachment to a bag of potatoes than Elika though.

[SonofSeth]

True,

I still had more emotional attachment to a bag of potatoes than Elika though.

Well, from what you wrote about Elika it seems you dislike her much more than you like the dog, so in a way her emotional impact on you was greater than the dogs.

[Orca]

The only difference between Elika and the dog when it comes to functionality is that Elika is mandatory for PoP to work the way it does and outside of treasure hunting the dog is not for Fable 2.

I'm not trying to change your mind because this topic is purely opinion based but the argument that Elika is useless is false no matter how you look at it yet if some one played through Fable 2 without getting any treasure then for them the dog would have been useless rather they liked him or not would be beside the point.

Elika is mandatory because they MADE her mandatory, not because players choose for her to be. That doesn't mean they can't find her to be useless baggage forced upon them.

[Grifter]

Elika is mandatory because they MADE her mandatory, not because players choose for her to be. That doesn't mean they can't find her to be useless baggage forced upon them.

Every mandatory thing in a game is "MADE" that way that doesn't make those things any less useful and considering she does not hinder your movements but extends and or magnifies them I don't see how she can be considered baggage either. Not once during the entire game did I have to stop what I was doing to wait for Elika nor did she ever cause me to fall so you may not like her but like I said earlier that has nothing to do with her functionality or usefulness.

I think it's time for some of you to find another argument.

[KingGorilla]

It's not an argument, that implies two standings of logically opposed viewpoints often including counter-points and examples all you seem to be doing is plugging your ears and screaming NUH-UH!. These are different experiences and opinions. Bully for you if you seem to "get" what the character's point in the game, even in the story is. I am still grappling with carrying her around like Master-Blaster.

Not to mention that you just cannot seem to grasp that you can like something for no reason. Sometimes things just strike a chord for no apparent reason. You don't have to evangelize.

[Grifter]

It's not an argument, that implies two standings of logically opposed viewpoints often including counter-points and examples all you seem to be doing is plugging your ears and screaming NUH-UH!. These are different experiences and opinions. Bully for you if you seem to "get" what the character's point in the game, even in the story is. I am still grappling with carrying her around like Master-Blaster.

Not to mention that you just cannot seem to grasp that you can like something for no reason. Sometimes things just strike a chord for no apparent reason. You don't have to evangelize.

What you don't seem to understand (which seems to be par for the course for you) is that I am not arguing if she is likable or not nor did I ever say you had to like her. As a matter of fact I said multiple times that her usefulness has nothing to do with liking her or not the fact is, and this is a fact, she is not useless nor does she ever slow you down. It's really not complicated. Your different "experiences" may have led you to dislike her addition to the game but they do not change the nature of the game in any way. Your Prince has all the same moves that my Prince had and your Elika has all the same powers my Elika had so the argument of her usefulness is not based on opinion but fact.

I will repeat my self one more time just for you gorilla seeing as this is very confusing for you. Some ones like or dislike of Elika both as a character and a tool has nothing to do with her usefulness in the game and being as you could not pass even a single level without her makes her pretty much the exact opposite of useless (which would be useful, see where I'm getting at here gorilla?). The term baggage in the context that you were using it implies that she in some ways slows you down and or hampers your movements. This is also false and anyone who has played the game would understand this, at no point do you ever have to stop and wait for her. Could they have just mapped all her abilities to a few buttons? Sure, but they didn't hence her usefulness.

One last time, just because some one does or does not like her (I could give a shit either way) does automatically change the nature of the game making her useless.

[Narradisall]

Well, from what you wrote about Elika it seems you dislike her much more than you like the dog, so in a way her emotional impact on you was greater than the dogs.

Fool! Love is a greater power than hate! Didn't the movies teach you anything? :)

[Shrinn]

Elika gets annoying. I think I'd much rather have her show up for some cutscenes to explain the story. It really breaks the flow of motion when I leap on to a vine and I have to wait for her to jump on my back.

The dog in Fable 2 was neat, but I didn't feel like he added much. But then again, I didn't much like Fable 2 as a "life sim" so that biases that decision.

Now, Dogmeat. That was a companion that I felt a real emotional connection to. In this wasteland of emptiness where people are concerned with themselves before anyone else, Dogmeat followed me around and unconditionally loved me! I actually felt like I wasn't alone in the world with him at my side.

[Grifter]

Now, Dogmeat. That was a companion that I felt a real emotional connection to. In this wasteland of emptiness where people are concerned with themselves before anyone else, Dogmeat followed me around and unconditionally loved me! I actually felt like I wasn't alone in the world with him at my side.

If you're talking Fallout 3 I can't take that damn dog anywhere without having to worry about him running off and getting himself killed so he just kicks it in my apartment. I really wish they had more AI commands for him.

[OUX]

It sounds to me like the prince should have gotten a pair of magic double jumping boots and the potato lass should have been left on an editor's desk.

[JayVe]

I choose the dog in Fable II.

I thought I could live without the dog, so I chose the ending that saved everyone, making me the good guy, but leaving me without my canine companion. The instant I was returned control, and I didn't have my dog, I was filled with a deep regret. I didn't realize how much of an emotional attachment I had made with my 4-legged friend.

Elika is nice, but she's capable on her own. In fact, my whole time in Prince of Persia has felt strangely disconnected. I feel like the game practically plays itself. While beautiful, I don't feel a sense of 'belonging' from the game at all. Little emotional connection to the game gives me the sense that I'm barely there, pressing buttons to mildly suggest what the character should be doing.

[KingGorilla]

Dogmeat, all the companions in Fallout should have been better. A more tangible benefit than mule and month fo you had to worry about going all Kamikaze. Maybe just better controls like a stay behind me command. Is the Diablo 2 or Guild Wars model that hard to emulate?

[Narradisall]

Dogmeat would have been good if they hadn't loaded 'Shit crazy rabid dog AI'.

Lone raider coming at you - ATTACK!
Wounded mole rat escaping - ATTACK!
8 Supermutants armed to the teeth in cover with grenades and heavy weapons - ATTACK!

I had to leave him outside Vault 101 to keep him safe...... from himself....

[Ink Asylum]

I had to leave Dogmeat in my apartment because of his suicidal tendencies. It would have been great to give him a "heel" command that would tether him to me by a few meters distance, or the option of pointing out which enemies he would attack. Instead, I'd enter a building and he would run off into the maze of halls while I desperately tried to find him before he got himself killed.

[Banacek]

I had to leave Dogmeat in my apartment because of his suicidal tendencies. It would have been great to give him a "heel" command that would tether him to me by a few meters distance, or the option of pointing out which enemies he would attack. Instead, I'd enter a building and he would run off into the maze of halls while I desperately tried to find him before he got himself killed.

My dream command for Dogmeat would be a 'subdue' type of command, where he runs up and grabs the enemy by the appendage and holds them still, exposing their weakspot. Then I'd take care of them. Instead he just runs right in between five enemies and gets killed.

[SonofSeth]

I plan to play Fallout some day soon, can I choose not even to get the damn mutt? I'm more of a cat person anyway.

[Ink Asylum]

You find Dogmeat in a scrapyard and I think you have the option to ditch him right then and there. No cats in game, though.

[SonofSeth]

What about a cougar, with radioactive glow in the dark claws?

[Hotcod]

I find all the Elika hate in this thread rather surprising...

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/01/column_diamond_in_the_rough.php

Major spoilers towards the end of that. Now let me make it clear i'm not as much of a raving fan boy as this guy is but he dose a good job detailing and explaining what Elika was meant to do, and for some people like him and to a lesser extent my self, what she did.

I honestly get the feeling that the game would have been far better revised if it was not called PoP. There would be far less complaints about the style of voice acting and save system and people would not be unset that it's not a return to sands of time. The game is easy for the most part but i don't get why that is such a bad thing. Given that tomb raider was annoying and frustrating from start to finish while this game was a joy to play i don't understand what the problem is.

Anyway on to Elika rather than general comments about the game. I've not been engaged as much by a companion character in a good while. Alyx and kotor1/2 are the only games that have really made me feel a connection to the other characters in the story. Sure a lot of the dialogue is chessy but it's not bad which is a hell of a lot better than most games i can think of. On top of that there is a wonderful feeling of them getting to know each other and growing to care in a way that seems plausible in context. Rather than the typical love interest that is falling all over you as soon as they lay eyes on you.

I think it's sad that, it seems, some people hate the fact they have to rely on her. It's them playing the game, they are the hero and they should be in full control gods dammit. Or at lest that's the impression i get. Yet the point of doing that is to put the player in her debt. As a player you come to rely on her and that is an important emotional hook that only a few other games have tried to the same extent. I saw some one complaining about seeing her hand or having her fall down in combat and that just seems a silly reason to dislike her. If you are seeing her hand a lot it's beacuse YOU messed up, not her, if she's falling down in combat it's beacuse YOU made a mistake not her. It's amusing that some people seem to take the frustration of there own mistakes and hang it on Elika. With out her you'd just except them as your fault as move on with her being there your able to shift the blame about your bad gameplay and attach it to her.

So in that respect having the player rely on her when they make a mistake dose not always work as well as indented. In stead of feeling grateful and building up a warm feeling of owing her something some players attach the negative feelings of there own failure to her beacuse she is always there when they fail.

But anyway it seems people fall in to 3 camps. You either really like her and the game, didn't get connected to her, or hate her for helping them. If your not in the first camp you've missed out on one of the most fun aspects of a really enjoyable if short and easy game.

[JayVe]

I think it's sad that, it seems, some people hate the fact they have to rely on her. It's them playing the game, they are the hero and they should be in full control gods dammit. Or at lest that's the impression i get. Yet the point of doing that is to put the player in her debt. As a player you come to rely on her and that is an important emotional hook that only a few other games have tried to the same extent. I saw some one complaining about seeing her hand or having her fall down in combat and that just seems a silly reason to dislike her. If you are seeing her hand a lot it's beacuse YOU messed up, not her, if she's falling down in combat it's beacuse YOU made a mistake not her. It's amusing that some people seem to take the frustration of there own mistakes and hang it on Elika. With out her you'd just except them as your fault as move on with her being there your able to shift the blame about your bad gameplay and attach it to her.

I don't have any love or dislike for Elika, and agree with your sentiments that this Prince of Persia would have been received if titled something other than Prince of Persia. Your quoted paragraph REALLY gets me thinking though. I'd never even considered that some people may resent her by associating her presence with their own failure.

It isn't unlike when people take out their own internal frustrations on others who point out mistakes. It is easier to get upset at a message bearer than to stop and analyze our own actions.

Thanks for the insightful post!

[Xerxes]

They ain't Cole Train, that's for sure.

[KingGorilla]

I may have pegged it. Elika reminds me too much of Navi and other Zelda fairies. Just there because some designer thought there needed to be some picture on screen to signify something that could have been done more elegantly by on screen cues(Navi's "hint system) or is just a gilding to something already established through other means(lock on targeting).

Because the overworld is so poorly designed Elika's homing beacon becomes necessary for you to find the proper temples to go to initially. That system is trying to cover up a major flaw in the initial design of the game.

[Hyperglide]

Been playing Fable II a lot lately and the dog can get pretty annoying with all the alerts but is thankfully not as annoying as all the cell calls you'd get in GTA4. Having to praise him or play fetch with him to shut him up from whining can get repetitive. Still I would have to give Fable II developers props for making a realistic dog, and you do grow attached to it. The motion capture is great too love all the litte tricks. Now if only they put more time into the simplistic combat than then did into the dog.

[bean]

I despised the dialog so much in PoP that I couldn't come to like Elika. Thus the dog wins hands-down.

[Narradisall]

Oh I forgot about this thread.

Having just played through PoP a second time. HANDS DOWN THE DOG.

I lost count the amount of times my jumps and the whole rythm of the game was brought to a grinding halt by Elika leaping on my back, or me having to grab her arm etc etc thus cancelling out anything I just ordered him to do and then leaving my following button to send him into a 1,000ft plung of death.

At least the dog didn't get in the way of the gameplay.