View Full Version : Valve Talks Episodic Content
DoctorFinger
10-03-2008, 07:04 AM
http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=160
Valve's decision to forgo a traditional sequel for Half-Life 2 and instead release three lower priced 'episodes' was not without controversy. And even Valve honcho Doug Lombardi admits that the choice of the word episode may not have been the right one.The notion of the word 'episode' conjures up this idea of television where you get something new every week. And people say 'we thought that episodic meant we were going to get something new every six months or every yearBut overall Valve stands by their decision to go, for wont of a better word, episodic. Games like Half-Life 2 cost so much to develop - in both time and money - that you have to earn the value back somewhere. Episodic follow-ups use the same engine, many of the same assets and feed off of the main story, so they're a bit cheaper to develop. And at least in Valve's case the savings are passed off to the consumer. But Lombardi also notes that some companies are not so consumer-minded.
And some [other companies] have started making games about the same length as Episode II, but they haven't changed what they call it, and they haven't change the price.Ouch. Although I'm sure we can all come up with some games that fall into that category.
Source - CVG (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=198534).
Shadowstorm
10-03-2008, 07:26 AM
I like the idea of episodic content. It is financially better for some developers to go down that path than rather a full game every two, three, four years. If you're going to choose that, though, I sure as hell don't want to pay full price for a glorified expansion pack.
Hotcod
10-03-2008, 07:29 AM
Episodic is very much the wrong word but even with out it they need to some what speed up there production cycle. I don't mind waiting a while between each new part but the wait for ep3 is killing me.
If they go down the same root with half life 3 i think they should call them parts, each maybe with a subtitle so you have halflife 3: freeman loses his glasses... and so on and build in the idea of parts more fully...
Still valve can do no wrong
Craigtheplague
10-03-2008, 07:34 AM
I don't see anything wrong with the word "episode". The story continues right where the previous episode left off and the same engine is used. I just don't understand why the first expansion is called episode 1. At first, I thought episode 1 took place before the original half-life 2 story.
Uniqueusername
10-03-2008, 07:37 AM
I always thought they should have been named Half Life 3: Episode 1, 2 and 3.
The 3 episodes form a story that happens after Half Life 2. Makes more sense.
Craigtheplague
10-03-2008, 07:58 AM
I always thought they should have been named Half Life 3: Episode 1, 2 and 3.
The 3 episodes form a story that happens after Half Life 2. Makes more sense.
I disagree. A Half Life title with a 3 would have to take place in a completely different place (and possibly a different time). Half Life took place at Black Mesa in the Arizona(?) desert. Half-Life 2 took place in some eastern European country. I have no idea how the transition took place nor how much time elapsed. Anybody know? I hope they don't release a game based on that transition and call it something cheesy life Half Life 1.5.
Deadend
10-03-2008, 07:59 AM
Oooohh Doug Lombardi hates Gears of War 2.
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 08:01 AM
I don't necessarily think that the term "episode" isn't correct for the content updates for HL2, mainly because I can't think of a better term to describe them. I mean, they are planned continuations of the storyline in the original title broken up into smaller pieces. Sure sounds like episodes to me.
I think the problem was that when they used the term "episode" at the beginning there really were not any examples within the game industry for people to base their expectations on.
Craigtheplague
10-03-2008, 08:11 AM
I think the problem was that when they used the term "episode" at the beginning there really were not any examples within the game industry for people to base their expectations on.
No kidding. Gamers have no patience. Does Valve have to justify or excuse their use of the word episode because we threw the dictionary at them? Half Life 3 is taking longer than usual. So what? It's not like their hands are their asses. I have very little doubt it will be great.
President Fred
10-03-2008, 08:12 AM
I think the timing in between episodes has been fine. Do I want a constant stream of HL stuff? Yes, but I recognise that the quality of the episodes is reflected in the time that it took. I don't see how anyone could have expected six months in-between episodes and yet get a solid expansion. I don't see why people are getting hung up on the word episode, there are a few years between Star Wars episodes etc.
SPBTooL
10-03-2008, 08:15 AM
I agree that the word "episode" brings to mind weekly or monthly content. For content that is not going to be continuously or contiguously released on a regular schedule why not use "Chapters" or "Issues". I bet part of it is so that there is one overlying word used to describe any story based DLC. No mater the time frame.
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 08:18 AM
For content that is not going to be continuously or contiguously released on a regular schedule why not use "Chapters" or "Issues".Meh, those are just synonyms for the same thing for different types of media. Episodes for TV/Movies, Chapters for Books and Issues for Magazines/Comics. I'd say gaming is much closer to TV/Movies than any of the others.
People just need to adjust their expectations.
I have no idea how the transition took place nor how much time elapsed. Anybody know?
http://members.shaw.ca/halflifestory/
The clues are in the game on newspapers clippings and other in-game events, but these guys have compiled the timeline. Neat stuff.
No kidding. Gamers have no patience. Does Valve have to justify or excuse their use of the word episode because we threw the dictionary at them?
Well it was a pretty poor choice of wording. I don't see what's overly wrong with simply calling it 'Half-Life 2: Insert Title Here' and giving each one a unique name. Episodic content to me is more like Sam and Max or PAAOtRSPoD, where the episodes are pretty close. I mean Sam & Max were roughly a month apart (if you exclude the gap between episode 1 and 2 in both Seasons). That's far more episodic to me especially considering what Goronmon said about TV.
Meh, those are just synonyms for the same thing for different types of media. Episodes for TV/Movies, Chapters for Books and Issues for Magazines/Comics. I'd say gaming is much closer to TV/Movies than any of the others.
I agree with the TV metaphor. But that to me signifies something that is relatively equally spaced, and you know pretty soon when the next one is coming. Sam & Max did that perfectly. PAA is kind of doing it, but we'll have to see how the spacing comes from 2 onwards.
jpublic
10-03-2008, 08:54 AM
I have to take some exception with a lot of you taking Valve's side here, as I'm sensing a bit of revisionist history happening here. When Valve started pushing the idea of the HL2 Episodes, wasn't part of the *press* they put out that you'd get Episodes way faster than a full game, in time frames measured in a few months?
Or am I remembering things wrong?
I have to take some exception with a lot of you taking Valve's side here, as I'm sensing a bit of revisionist history happening here. When Valve started pushing the idea of the HL2 Episodes, wasn't part of the *press* they put out that you'd get Episodes way faster than a full game, in time frames measured in a few months?
Or am I remembering things wrong?We do get episodes way faster than a full game. Do you remember how long HL1 and HL2 took? I think 5 years apiece.
Meh, those are just synonyms for the same thing for different types of media. Episodes for TV/Movies, Chapters for Books and Issues for Magazines/Comics. I'd say gaming is much closer to TV/Movies than any of the others.
People just need to adjust their expectations.
I agree with this. Call it what you will, the games are shorter and smaller in scope, but at the same time very focused and very much a full experience. Episode works fine for me.
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 09:06 AM
When Valve started pushing the idea of the HL2 Episodes, wasn't part of the *press* they put out that you'd get Episodes way faster than a full game, in time frames measured in a few months?I don't think Valve actually expected a few months between episodes, that would be just impossible from a development/testing standpoint. I do think they hoped to be moving a bit quicker though.
Then again, it was 6 years between HL1 and HL2. It's been less than 2 years between episodes, so I guess things are moving much faster relatively.
I agree with the TV metaphor. But that to me signifies something that is relatively equally spaced, and you know pretty soon when the next one is coming.But as someone mentioned earlier, the Star Wars movies are broken up into "episodes" and those certainly weren't released in a short time frame.
But as someone mentioned earlier, the Star Wars movies are broken up into "episodes" and those certainly weren't released in a short time frame.
That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of. Perhaps we're just being overly picky about the term, and expecting way more than is feasible. I mean I haven't played any of the HL2 eps (I know, I'm a bad person), so I can't comment on the length compare to Sam & Max or PAA. I think it was on In-Game Chat under the EvAv Radio banner a while back when the guys were talking about this and said that you could consider stuff like sports franchise games as episodic. It's usually the same engine, with minor tweaks. Those are a year apart, and a hell of a lot more expensive than the Episodes are. Sure they're more content rich, but if you look at the gaps between Episodes 1 and 2 (18 monthsish) and the price difference I think the time scale isn't bad. Then again looks like Episode 3 won't meet that 18 month threshold.
TheKeck
10-03-2008, 09:21 AM
I like the Half-life Episodes for what they are, but as other have mentioned, the whole semantics of the word "episode" kind of gives you a bad idea of what to expect.
TheFlyingOrc
10-03-2008, 09:24 AM
I like 'em, but they're still coming out too infrequently.
They could have done Episodes 1, 2, and 3 as "Half-Life 3", but it would have "looked old" by the time they released it, and we wouldn't have gotten the amazing deal we got with Orange Box. Plus, I don't think Episode 3 is going to wrap it all up for us. We know a lot about what is going on now, but there are tons of unanswered questions still, and while they answer questions, they are also adding new ones.
I love how they are doing it, though I do wish they could come out with new episodes more quickly. The content is so great. . . honestly, I'd pay more than they ask, but I wouldn't love their company. I'd feel cheated instead of pampered. There is probably a happy medium somewhere in there, but it would only be a few bucks more, and it might turn off customers who aren't huge fans like me.
Oooohh Doug Lombardi hates Gears of War 2.
Actually, they've said they are making the story a lot longer in GoW 2, but I get your point. They are reusing assets, and additional weapons, execution animations, vehicles, enemies, online features, and a new narrative doesn't mean the game is completely new.
I honestly can't think of that many sequels that are only 5-6 hours long and that use old game assets. Heavenly Sword is only 5-6 hours long, and Resident Evil games have been that short (or shorter). . . but with multiple characters, multiple endings, and multiple paths for each character and playthrough, so they aren't REALLY that short. F.E.A.R. was that short, but it isn't episodic. . . and Max Payne is only a little longer than that. I wonder who he is talking about?
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 09:40 AM
...you could consider stuff like sports franchise games as episodic. It's usually the same engine, with minor tweaks. Those are a year apart, and a hell of a lot more expensive than the Episodes are.I think one of the key meanings behind the term episode is that it conveys a continuing storyline. Which is definitely not something you find in sports games.
Jackel
10-03-2008, 09:44 AM
I don't have any problems with the term Episode, as I don't feel that it implies that the next one must be out within a certain time frame. An episode is just the next chapter in the series, whether its out the next week or the next year.
TheKeck
10-03-2008, 09:52 AM
I will also add that as much as I agonize over having to wait for Valve content, I MUCH prefer it to releasing things before they are ready (and might I add... glorious?)
Hotcod
10-03-2008, 10:38 AM
I have to take some exception with a lot of you taking Valve's side here, as I'm sensing a bit of revisionist history happening here. When Valve started pushing the idea of the HL2 Episodes, wasn't part of the *press* they put out that you'd get Episodes way faster than a full game, in time frames measured in a few months?
Or am I remembering things wrong?
not really, there plan when they first came up with the idea was to make it much faster, they quickly realised that it was the wrong way to do it half way though making ep1 and changed there minds but kept the episode names. It's quite well known 'fact' if you will
Widgetcraft
10-03-2008, 10:56 AM
I've enjoyed their Half-life 2 offerings; they're well worth the money I spend on them, and I anticipate every release.
Telefrog
10-03-2008, 10:58 AM
not really, there plan when they first came up with the idea was to make it much faster, they quickly realised that it was the wrong way to do it half way though making ep1 and changed there minds but kept the episode names. It's quite well known 'fact' if you will
Yeah, I remember this as well. They did have to backpedal from their original assertion that the "episodes" were going to come a lot faster. That said, as long as other games come in the interim, I think I'm cool with their schedule.
TheFlyingOrc
10-03-2008, 10:59 AM
Yeah, I remember this as well. They did have to backpedal from their original assertion that the "episodes" were going to come a lot faster. That said, as long as other games come in the interim, I think I'm cool with their schedule.
I still don't quite get why it takes them some two years to make a game 1/3rd as long with a huge amount of the same assets.
Well it was always the content itself that took a lot of time, plus they have added assets and some features to the engine as they go. So two years to me reflects the story and world-building (as far as I remember, you didn't visit the same locations).
agentgray
10-03-2008, 12:06 PM
Let's look at it this way:
Half-Life 2:
Full game
$50
Half-Life episodes:
1/3 game, maybe smaller
$20
Do some simple math and they come out ahead doing "episodic" stuff. However, that does not take into account that some of us bought the Orange Box which was essentially buying the same game twice. They made even more money (I still have some gifts for HL2 and HL2:EP1)
I would not be surprised it we have another type of compilation and we end up buying the game a third time.
Forget the episode stuff, just give me more things in the vein of Portal.
Don't tell me I bought the same game twice when I got an episode plus portal plus TF2. In that respect, they delivered cake and the extra HL2 was just icing.
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 12:50 PM
Don't tell me I bought the same game twice when I got an episode plus portal plus TF2. In that respect, they delivered cake and the extra HL2 was just icing.It was more like they delivered the cake and included some free cookies to go with it. Even if you've had those cookies before, what are you going to say? "Stop offering me free cookies!"?
Food Nipple
10-03-2008, 12:56 PM
I still don't quite get why it takes them some two years to make a game 1/3rd as long with a huge amount of the same assets.
Well, considering there was a 6 year gap between HL1 and HL2, it sounds like they're marching along at the same pace they always have. Plus, they're not a very big studio and everyone works on everything, so part of the reason it takes so long is that they're also working on TF2, Portal, L4D, as well as Steam.
agentgray
10-03-2008, 12:58 PM
Don't tell me I bought the same game twice when I got an episode plus portal plus TF2. In that respect, they delivered cake and the extra HL2 was just icing.
How about not include the original game and sell it cheaper, or maybe sell them individually?
I'm not complaining about buying it twice. I did. :D
It's just the way I look at it.
Yeah, but in this case the bits didn't cost extra to throw in (unless you pay per MB of download of course).
agentgray
10-03-2008, 01:25 PM
Interesting. Then why do it? (Of course this was all talked about years ago when The Orange Box was released. It's probably moot now.)
Why not? I like the idea of gifting a free copy of HL2 to your friends, that's awesome to get someone to check out Valve.
Of course trying to give away our free copy of HL2 on EvAv was like trying to hand out ice to Inuits.
TheFlyingOrc
10-03-2008, 01:36 PM
Well, considering there was a 6 year gap between HL1 and HL2, it sounds like they're marching along at the same pace they always have. Plus, they're not a very big studio and everyone works on everything, so part of the reason it takes so long is that they're also working on TF2, Portal, L4D, as well as Steam.
I just don't see it, especially considering how few new gameplay concepts came in Episode 2. With the base they've already built, it seems like Ep. 2 should have taken 9 months at the most.
Goronmon
10-03-2008, 01:37 PM
Of course trying to give away our free copy of HL2 on EvAv was like trying to hand out ice to Inuits.I know I still have mine.
crazyD
10-03-2008, 01:52 PM
It was more like they delivered the cake and included some free cookies to go with it. Even if you've had those cookies before, what are you going to say? "Stop offering me free cookies!"?
It's more like giving cookies bundled in with my purchase of cake when I already have an unlimited amount of cookies, and all my friends who like cookies also have unlimited cookies. I still don't see it as free, and I would have loved a credit towards another game, or a discount since I already own a portion of their bundle. This really annoyed me when Orange Box hit, and almost prevented me from buying it.
I just don't see it, especially considering how few new gameplay concepts came in Episode 2. With the base they've already built, it seems like Ep. 2 should have taken 9 months at the most.
9 months is equivalent to developing for handheld systems in some cases. Creating content on the scale of a PC game does take longer.
Also I imagine they spend more time polishing the episodes to make sure that even if it's short, the pacing is consistent and tight. In fact I think I heard that from listening to the in-game commentary and some Valve interviews.
I know I still have mine.
Yeah. Anyone need a free HL2? ;)
It's more like giving cookies bundled in with my purchase of cake when I already have an unlimited amount of cookies, and all my friends who like cookies also have unlimited cookies. I still don't see it as free, and I would have loved a credit towards another game, or a discount since I already own a portion of their bundle. This really annoyed me when Orange Box hit, and almost prevented me from buying it.
You know, you definitely put the crazy in crazyD!
My point is that the price was already right for the three NEW games you got. I really can't wrap my head around complaints of a fourth, free game, even if you already have it. If you bought the physical box, throw away the free CD or make a pretty coaster. Actually CDs look really cool when you microwave them. I do recommend it.
crazyD
10-03-2008, 04:54 PM
My point is that the price was already right for the three NEW games you got. I really can't wrap my head around complaints of a fourth, free game, even if you already have it. If you bought the physical box, throw away the free CD or make a pretty coaster. Actually CDs look really cool when you microwave them. I do recommend it.
Because I don't see it as free. I see it as them charging me for 2 extra games in a forced bundle. As much as I love Portal and TF2, they are not exactly games I would have paid full price for. Portal was about 4 hours long, and TF2 only shipped with 6 maps. While I definitely have gotten my money's worth in the long haul, I still think a $30 to $35 launch point without HL2 and Ep. 1 would have been ideal.
Also, I bought it off of Steam, so I don't even get a CD to break.
Oh yeah, I forgot about Episode 1 being in there too... more free cookies. I guess we agree to disagree on this one, I still think the price was more than fair even if you pulled out HL2 and Ep1.
Jackel
10-03-2008, 04:59 PM
Interesting. Then why do it? (Of course this was all talked about years ago when The Orange Box was released. It's probably moot now.)
I'm guessing because people would have the free gifts to give away to there friends (which would most likely result in more sales of the orange box as people get hooked on the story / game).
Whether the value of TOB w/ (Ep2 + Portal + Tf2) was worth it to you is another matter...just like any other decision you make on purchasing a game.
For me I got enough enjoyment out of tf2 alone to justify the price...others maybe not..but that's a subjective opinion.
KingGorilla
10-03-2008, 08:12 PM
What's done is done. And the semantics of what "episodic" means aside, Valve has made three great shooters branded Half-Life 2. They have crafted a great story and universe.
And it takes balls to not pull the wool over your fans' eyes. What separates half-Life and Tom Clancy is that Tom Clancy titles have the same work for a much higher price. Or Madden, most years you pay 60 bucks for a roster update.
Wasson_
10-04-2008, 03:19 AM
This reminds me...that I need to replay Episode 2 again, I've only really went through it once.
Also yeah...while they packaging their episodes with stuff like Portal and fucking TF2 no less...yeah they can do what they like.
Hotcod
10-04-2008, 04:52 AM
You guys do know they where all but bullied in to dropping the black box by there publishers of the console orange boxes... so they dropped the price of what the orange box was going to cost on steam and called hl2 and ep1 free extras. You may have paid a bit more than you would have other wise but it was the publishers fault not valves and you are paying so very little extra for the 'free' stuff that it hardly matters given the amount of new content you got anyway
crazyD
10-04-2008, 08:56 AM
You guys do know they where all but bullied in to dropping the black box by there publishers of the console orange boxes... so they dropped the price of what the orange box was going to cost on steam and called hl2 and ep1 free extras. You may have paid a bit more than you would have other wise but it was the publishers fault not valves and you are paying so very little extra for the 'free' stuff that it hardly matters given the amount of new content you got anyway
I don't really care who's fault it was. Valve has internet publishing rights, they should have released Black Box on Steam.
It's more like giving cookies bundled in with my purchase of cake when I already have an unlimited amount of cookies, and all my friends who like cookies also have unlimited cookies. I still don't see it as free, and I would have loved a credit towards another game, or a discount since I already own a portion of their bundle. This really annoyed me when Orange Box hit, and almost prevented me from buying it.
Really? I thought Portal, Episode 2, and TF 2 were a great bargain at $50. Getting to give away HL2 and Episode 1 was a bonus I didn't need, and haven't found a use for (everyone I know who has a gaming PC already owns them).
Crowe
10-04-2008, 09:58 AM
Orange Box was a solid deal, I couldn't feel cheated if I tried. In Valve I trust.
Vyzov
10-04-2008, 10:06 AM
Considering I probably would of paid 50$ for TF2 alone, I think Orange Box was one of the best deals ever.
KingGorilla
10-04-2008, 09:55 PM
I don't really care who's fault it was. Valve has internet publishing rights, they should have released Black Box on Steam.
Their mistake was alluding to any sort of Black Box early on and then, wisely, going with one main sales skew. So Valve kept the 50 dollar price tag, and went with one skew. I do not think anyone figured the Black Box would have been less than that.
And as it stands now, a year later, you can get the Orange Box for 40.
OrangePulp
10-05-2008, 01:14 PM
Because I don't see it as free. I see it as them charging me for 2 extra games in a forced bundle. As much as I love Portal and TF2, they are not exactly games I would have paid full price for. Portal was about 4 hours long, and TF2 only shipped with 6 maps. While I definitely have gotten my money's worth in the long haul, I still think a $30 to $35 launch point without HL2 and Ep. 1 would have been ideal.
Also, I bought it off of Steam, so I don't even get a CD to break.
I still don't see how people can hold this point of view. Consider this: the cost for buying each game individually would have come to $80 (TF2 and Ep2 were 30, portal 20). You got it for $50, which is almost 40% off. Did you really expect them to go any cheaper for it?
I think Orange Box was one of the best deals offered in gaming, ever.
Hotcod
10-05-2008, 01:33 PM
I don't really care who's fault it was. Valve has internet publishing rights, they should have released Black Box on Steam.
Yes, an i can also point a gun at my face and pull the trigger beacuse it my finger... i'm still not stupid enough to do it. They are in a very tricky place, they could at this point drop PC retail with out a problem but they can NOT do the same for consoles and as such they can not piss off publishers, stores and other such people.
As it is the damned black box would have likely cost almost as much (they in fact dropped the price of the orange box on steam as much as they felt they could get away with) so you may have paid a few extra dollars for 2 games you already own but i bet you spend more than that with out thinking and given you can just gift the things away to a friend (i've still got mine if any one wants them) it's really not such a big deal.
As for the publishing cycle time span... valve could get this stuff out the door a lot quickly but there design processes is just not geared to speed... there way of dragging lots of different people in to talk about ideas or problems and so on just isn't a set up for making things quickly. It can make things awesome... i do think they could speed up a little bit at this point but ah well
National Kato
10-05-2008, 02:01 PM
I really don't have a problem with the time it is taking Valve to get the next 'episode' out. But why is it that everytime I read anything about Doug Lombardi, he's complaining?
crazyD
10-05-2008, 07:31 PM
I still don't see how people can hold this point of view. Consider this: the cost for buying each game individually would have come to $80 (TF2 and Ep2 were 30, portal 20). You got it for $50, which is almost 40% off. Did you really expect them to go any cheaper for it?
I think Orange Box was one of the best deals offered in gaming, ever.
I thought the single releases were way overpriced as well, obviously.
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