Overrated / Underrated Developers

[fitbabits]

At the risk of opening a can of worms, let's list our top five overrated and underrated developers. I'll go first:

Overrated

Free Radical
Kojima Productions
Team Ninja
Guerrilla
Square Enix

Underrated

Insomniac
Starbreeze
Bethesda
Codemasters (replacing Stardock)
EA Redwood Shores

Have at it!

[Tron]

Although I don't have an opinion either way I'm fascinated as to what others will say.

(eagerly awaits the opinions of others)

[TheFlyingOrc]

I think Bethesda is pretty well liked, actually. I'd almost call them over rather than other, fits.

Overrated:

Rockstar. They stumbled onto GTA, and other companies could do it better and with better senses of humor.

Bioware: Not that I think they're a bad company, but the fact that they cram in a lot of story doesn't entirely make up for their repetitive gameplay.

Team Ico: Don't get me wrong, I love SotC, but the way some people love them you would think that they were a company devoted to giving players free bottled love with each free blowjob.

Treasure: Will you retards shut up nobody likes shmups no nobody not even you shutup shutup shutup

Bungie: Again they're good but holy crap people Halo still isn't as fun as it was in the first one

edit: I am really cynical because my list just keeps growing

And post some WHYs, people. Dozens of people's lists aren't actually that fun to read.

[itchyeyes]

Overrated:

Stardock (they've produced several great games, but developed is a different matter entirely)

Underrated:

Ironclad (It's gotta suck seeing Stardock get all the credit for your game)

[Tron]

Oh what the heck...

Overrated:

Bungie
Nintendo

Underrated:

Valve

[TheFlyingOrc]

Underrated:

Valve

Who, exactly, does NOT have their mouth fully wrapped around Valve's genitals? I can't see how Valve could possibly be underrated.

[Tron]

Who, exactly, does NOT have their mouth fully wrapped around Valve's genitals? I can't see how Valve could possibly be underrated.

The fact that we don't have Valve Day as a national holiday means they are still underrated! ;)

[violent]

I think almost everyone is overrated these days. Hundreds of games and only a handful of decent ones. I'll go with 1 of each I suppose:

Overrated: Valve
Underrated: NIS

[Gorvi]

I'm curious why Kojima Productions made it on there, fits. Between the MGS games, the ZoE games, and the Boktai/Lunar Knights games, they've had a pretty great track record.

[fitbabits]

I'm curious why Kojima Productions made it on there, fits. Between the MGS games, the ZoE games, and the Boktai/Lunar Knights games, they've had a pretty great track record.
Mostly because of MGS, actually. The original MGS on PlayStation is still, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the series. Kojima and his team have been coasting since then. Sure, there are moments of greatness in each of the MGS games, but nothing compares in totality to the first.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I'm curious why Kojima Productions made it on there, fits. Between the MGS games, the ZoE games, and the Boktai/Lunar Knights games, they've had a pretty great track record.

Nobody plays ZoE (although I hear they're pretty good), and MGS drives by gameplay while flipping it off in exchange for making ridiculous cutscenes, which, while humorous, have the emotional/intellectual depth of a dead walrus.

[violent]

Mostly because of MGS, actually. The original MGS on PlayStation is still, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the series. Kojima and his team have been coasting since then. Sure, there are moments of greatness in each of the MGS games, but nothing compares in totality to the first.

Out of curiosity, why Guerrilla Games? They have like 3 games out and only one is good.

[KingGorilla]

You are only as good as your last game. More to the point, few companies have the solvency to make that a reality. Insomniac shoveled out some tripe to keep the rent paid. Relic took some THQ payola for The Outfit. Blizzard built its foundation from Gamesworkshop not having a savvy legal team.

Starbreze made Riddic cool(lead into gold), but they also made a monster closet shooter, with a horrible plot and worse pathing.

Media Molecule has a host of small, horrible, physics gimmik games to their name.

Telltale makes great adventure games, but also CSI tie in shovelware.

[fitbabits]

Out of curiosity, why Guerrilla Games? They have like 3 games out and only one is good.
One word, one number - Killzone 2.

How they got the reputation they have now (of being a AAA developer) is simply beyond me. Hence why I added them to the overrated list.

[violent]

One word, one number - Killzone 2.

How they got the reputation they have now (of being a AAA developer) is simply beyond me. Hence why I added them to the overrated list.
I suppose if anyone has raised them to the ranks of a AAA developer because of a game that isn't out it's their intelligence that may be overrated. But I suppose if such people are out there it would make that choice valid.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I suppose if anyone has raised them to the ranks of a AAA developer because of a game that isn't out it's their intelligence that may be overrated. But I suppose if such people are out there it would make that choice valid.
You don't think there's people out there who are already hailing them as fantastic?

[DangerousDaze]

I would have reversed Kojima and Bethesda in your list. Kojima's team produced a superbly written game whereas Bethesda's offering is littered with bugs, and they started with an off-the-shelf engine.

[scythe]

Nobody plays ZoE (although I hear they're pretty good), and MGS drives by gameplay while flipping it off in exchange for making ridiculous cutscenes, which, while humorous, have the emotional/intellectual depth of a dead walrus.

I'd argue that the reason some people don't like MGS' long cutscenes is because they have too much emotional/intellectual depth. To the point of being boring sometimes.

And I say "some people" because I personally love the cutscenes and long, complex narratives.

[violent]

You don't think there's people out there who are already hailing them as fantastic?

I'm sure there are but it's lost on me why they would say so at this juncture.

[Gorvi]

Mostly because of MGS, actually. The original MGS on PlayStation is still, in my opinion, the pinnacle of the series. Kojima and his team have been coasting since then. Sure, there are moments of greatness in each of the MGS games, but nothing compares in totality to the first.
Odd opinion, there. I played through all of them again leading up to 4 earlier this year, and while 2 was a bit of a low point, 3 was the high point in the series for me. MGS3 is to this day probably one of my top 5 games of all time.
Nobody plays ZoE (although I hear they're pretty good), and MGS drives by gameplay while flipping it off in exchange for making ridiculous cutscenes, which, while humorous, have the emotional/intellectual depth of a dead walrus.
You're entitled to your opinion, but just because not many people have played the ZoE games doesn't make them any less amazing. ZoE 1 may have been "that game with the MGS2 demo", but ZoE 2 is a fantastic game, one that more people should play.

As far as MGS, I've learned to just smile and nod when someone hasn't really played the series decides to try to have an opinion on them. ;)

[fitbabits]

I suppose if anyone has raised them to the ranks of a AAA developer because of a game that isn't out it's their intelligence that may be overrated. But I suppose if such people are out there it would make that choice valid.
Whomever is responsible is neither here nor there - the fact is they are looked upon with the kind of reverence usually reserved for the likes of Epic, Bungie, id Software, etc.

[Blue]

I don't really see either Bethesda or Insomniac as underrated in any way. I mean, a good chunk of the bigger titles for each system comes out of those two camps which doesn't quite strike me as underrated.

Not sure I have a list, but I'd say Nintendo is the most overrated. You want to talk about coasting, that's all Nintendo really does.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I'd argue that the reason some people don't like MGS' long cutscenes is because they have too much emotional/intellectual depth. To the point of being boring sometimes.

And I say "some people" because I personally love the cutscenes and long, complex narratives.

Oh, I usually enjoy them, but on a very ironic level. The main thing I don't like about the cutscenes is that he uses far too many words to get across not-all-that-complex concepts, constantly restates the obvious, etc.

They certainly don't have real depth to them. If Kojima isn't being ironic, I pity the man for his childlike understanding of the world.

[fitbabits]

Odd opinion, there. I played through all of them again leading up to 4 earlier this year, and while 2 was a bit of a low point, 3 was the high point in the series for me. MGS3 is to this day probably one of my top 5 games of all time.
I'm known for my odd opinions, it seems. :)

I remember playing through the original PS version in one sitting (I actually imported the US version as I was living in Scotland at the time), then starting it again immediately afterward. Since then it's been the same formula dressed in shinier garb.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Not sure I have a list, but I'd say Nintendo is the most overrated. You want to talk about coasting, that's all Nintendo really does.
Absolute nonsense. While they do tend to repeat franchises, they change the game more than any other company. Zelda's gotten a bit long in the tooth, but they are the only company I see who invents genres.

[Gorvi]

Since then it's been the same formula dressed in shinier garb.
It's been largely the same formula, yes, but what game series isn't to some extent? They've added to the gameplay more than enough in subsequent games to keep things fresh, IMO, but I guess what's "enough" is different for everyone.

[Blue]

Absolute nonsense. While they do tend to repeat franchises, they change the game more than any other company. Zelda's gotten a bit long in the tooth, but they are the only company I see who invents genres.

That's such a crock. All they do is slap new graphics on a game and call it a day. Zelda hasn't changed in the slightest, Metroid is still the exact same experience in a FPS format (and it's worsened), Mario added a water pack in Sunshine and... what? The core gameplay is tweaked just slightly with the end result and the meat being the exact same.

Nintendo hasn't invented a genre in years. All they've done recently is make flailing around in front of a screen now less suspect.

[violent]

Whomever is responsible is neither here nor there - the fact is they are looked upon with the kind of reverence usually reserved for the likes of Epic, Bungie, id Software, etc.

I'm not trying to discredit your opinions here, I think they are valid. I'm simply prying.

See, Bungie I think is overrated because they have made games that are highly touted yet I fail to see anything magical about them. Something that could be just as valid with Kojima(though I personally feel differently), I just think that Guerrilla should be gauged on their released work not things down the pipe. Those that claim greatness of a developer that has yet to release the determining works are just silly. Not that you are part of these but rather I think they are the ones your distaste is actually directed to (and rightfully so I might add).

[fitbabits]

That's such a crock. All they do is slap new graphics on a game and call it a day. Zelda hasn't changed in the slightest, Metroid is still the exact same experience in a FPS format (and it's worsened), Mario added a water pack in Sunshine and... what? The core gameplay is tweaked just slightly with the end result and the meat being the exact same.

Nintendo hasn't invented a genre in years. All they've done recently is make flailing around in front of a screen now less suspect.
Cue someone busting out screens of Zelda and Metroid on NES and comparing them with current iterations. ;)

[TheFlyingOrc]

As far as MGS, I've learned to just smile and nod when someone hasn't really played the series decides to try to have an opinion on them. ;)
I've played one and a half of them.

I enjoy them, but they're stupid. VERY stupid. Retard whacking himself in the face in a shovel while soiling himself stupid.

[fitbabits]

I'm not trying to discredit your opinions here, I think they are valid. I'm simply prying.

See, Bungie I think is overrated because they have made games that are highly touted yet I fail to see anything magical about them. Something that could be just as valid with Kojima(though I personally feel differently), I just think that Guerrilla should be gauged on their released work not things down the pipe. Those that claim greatness of a developer that has yet to release the determining works are just silly. Not that you are part of these but rather I think they are the ones your distaste is actually directed to (and rightfully so I might add).
That's the thing, though - Guerrilla are still considered a AAA developer despite the mediocre quality of their portfolio to date. The hype surrounding Killzone 2 is way out of proportion when one considers the original Killzone and Shellshock - 'Nam '67. See what I'm getting at?

[violent]

I've played one and a half of them.

I enjoy them, but they're stupid. VERY stupid. Retard whacking himself in the face in a shovel while soiling himself stupid.

To be fair, I could say the same about 90% of Wii games.

[TheFlyingOrc]

That's such a crock. All they do is slap new graphics on a game and call it a day. Zelda hasn't changed in the slightest, Metroid is still the exact same experience in a FPS format (and it's worsened), Mario added a water pack in Sunshine and... what? The core gameplay is tweaked just slightly with the end result and the meat being the exact same.

Nintendo hasn't invented a genre in years. All they've done recently is make flailing around in front of a screen now less suspect.

Oh sweet I guess Nintendo doesn't release any other games -

Animal Crossing and Pikmin. Wii Sports. Wii Fit. 4 new genre games right freaking there. Disaster: Day of Crisis, though I haven't played it.

Metroid Prime is very different from Metroid, and you're dumb in the face for saying so.

[Blue]

Cue someone busting out screens of Zelda and Metroid on NES and comparing them with current iterations. ;)

I covered that in the "slap on graphics" bit :).

[itchyeyes]

It's been largely the same formula, yes, but what game series isn't to some extent? They've added to the gameplay more than enough in subsequent games to keep things fresh, IMO, but I guess what's "enough" is different for everyone.
The problem isn't what they should have added, but what they should have cut but didn't. You could cut about 2 hours of cinematics off of every MGS game without sacrificing any of the plot and they would be better for it. The fact that after 4 games Kojima studios has not figured out how to do this is just sad.

[Gorvi]

That's the thing, though - Guerrilla are still considered a AAA developer despite the mediocre quality of their portfolio to date. The hype surrounding Killzone 2 is way out of proportion when one considers the original Killzone and Shellshock - 'Nam '67. See what I'm getting at?
Killzone Liberation was the shit, though. But yeah, with the PS2 game and Nam.... yeah, KZ2 is getting too much hype.

[violent]

That's the thing, though - Guerrilla are still considered a AAA developer despite the mediocre quality of their portfolio to date. The hype surrounding Killzone 2 is way out of proportion when one considers the original Killzone and Shellshock - 'Nam '67. See what I'm getting at?

I certainly do. I just think it's silly for anyone to consider them a AAA developer. It's amazing what some people could fool themselves to believe.

[Gorvi]

The problem isn't what they should have added, but what they should have cut but didn't. You could cut about 2 hours of cinematics off of every MGS game without sacrificing any of the plot and they would be better for it. The fact that after 4 games Kojima studios has not figured out how to do this is just sad.
It's not sad, the fans enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't play the games.

[TheFlyingOrc]

To be fair, I could say the same about 90% of Wii games.

I would agree with you. It's the false-high-mindedness of MGS that annoys me. They're not deep. They're simply not. If taken ironically they're delightful, though. Oh good! A bisexual vampire! A robot ninja! This is truly a work of ART.

[bapenguin]

Overrated:
Nintendo - they recycle the same games over and over and over
Kojima Productions - see above
Team Ninja - see above
Gas Powered Games - Last good game was Dungeon Siege and even then...

Underrated
Pandemic
Relic
Kaos Studios
Codemasters

[itchyeyes]

It's not sad, the fans enjoy it. If you don't like it, don't play the games.
You missed my point entirely. You can cut hours of cutscenes off of every MGS game without sacrificing what the fans enjoy. Explaining 6 times in a single cutscene who the Patriots are is not good storytelling. It's adds nothing and nobody, not even the most hardcore fans, would miss the extra 5 explanations if they cut them. You don't need a 5 minute scene to show soldiers taking position on a bridge. A good director could convey the exact same experience in a fraction of the time without sacrificing anything. I'm not talking about cutting plot details, or crucial dialogue, or anything even remotely important. There are hours of completely worthless footage and dialogue in every game that could have been cut and not only would nobody miss them, the games would be better for it.

[violent]

I would agree with you. It's the false-high-mindedness of MGS that annoys me. They're not deep. They're simply not. If taken ironically they're delightful, though. Oh good! A bisexual vampire! A robot ninja! This is truly a work of ART.

Precisely. I'll be the first to admit that sometimes I enjoy things that aren't good. It's when someone tells me that the bisexual vampire is the next evolution in character design that I begin to have a problem.

[Blue]

Oh sweet I guess Nintendo doesn't release any other games -

Animal Crossing and Pikmin. Wii Sports. Wii Fit. 4 new genre games right freaking there. Disaster: Day of Crisis, though I haven't played it.

Metroid Prime is very different from Metroid, and you're dumb in the face for saying so.

Animal Crossing is new? Huh. Because I've played the exact same game three different times for three separate systems. Could've sworn I saw the same genre in the Sims how many years ago? And Sports are new? That's not inventing a genre. They made it so you can swing a stick and call it bowing. While it's neat for a bit, I think saying that it's a whole new genre is a lengthy stretch. I'd also argue that Wii Fit simply took a new approach on making exercising more approachable in a video game format but, again, that's not really a whole new genre. I'll give you Pikmin only because I never got around to playing it (though I'd still like to).

And Metroid Prime is not very different from Metroid. It's from a new perspective which you're apparently so ready to label a new game altogether. Your mom is dumb in the face for having raised you wrong.

[TheFlyingOrc]

You missed my point entirely. You can cut hours of cutscenes off of every MGS game without sacrificing what the fans enjoy. Explaining 6 times in a single cutscene who the Patriots are is not good storytelling. It's adds nothing and nobody, not even the most hardcore fans, would miss the extra 5 explanations if they cut them. You don't need a 5 minute scene to show soldiers taking position on a bridge. A good director could convey the exact same experience in a fraction of the time without sacrificing anything. I'm not talking about cutting plot details, or crucial dialogue, or anything even remotely important. There are hours of completely worthless footage and dialogue in every game that could have been cut and not only would nobody miss them, the games would be better for it.

I agree with this. One of my biggest complaints is long cutscenes that only reveal one or two pieces of information, plus characters having to say out loud what I just saw in cutscene. The cutscenes could be much, MUCH tighter and compressed.

[violent]

I think the problem with long cutscenes is the subject material. It's obvious that not everyone is going to enjoy your game and the long cutscenes for those people must be torturous. Though it can be an entirely different experience if you actually enjoy it. My examples are MGS and Xenosaga. Loved one, hated the other.

[Gorvi]

You missed my point entirely. You can cut hours of cutscenes off of every MGS game without sacrificing what the fans enjoy. Explaining 6 times in a single cutscene who the Patriots are is not good storytelling. It's adds nothing and nobody, not even the most hardcore fans, would miss the extra 5 explanations if they cut them. You don't need a 5 minute scene to show soldiers taking position on a bridge. A good director could convey the exact same experience in a fraction of the time without sacrificing anything. I'm not talking about cutting plot details, or crucial dialogue, or anything even remotely important. There are hours of completely worthless footage and dialogue in every game that could have been cut and not only would nobody miss them, the games would be better for it.
Now that's blowing things quite a bit out of proportion. The soldiers gathering on a bridge, I agree, a full 50 seconds of that was far too much, but my point was that dialogue you call "worthless" is something many fans actually enjoy. I know I do. The games would be better without it for you, but for a lot of people, that dialogue that's not necassary, but still interesting, is one part of what we enjoy about the games.

[Gorvi]

I think the problem with long cutscenes is the subject material. It's obvious that not everyone is going to enjoy your game and the long cutscenes for those people must be torturous. Though it can be an entirely different experience if you actually enjoy it. My examples are MGS and Xenosaga. Loved one, hated the other.
I must just be a sucker for games with long cutscenes, I loved the Xenosaga games (well, 1 and 3 anyway). ;)

[TheFlyingOrc]

Animal Crossing is new? Huh. Because I've played the exact same game three different times for three separate systems. Could've sworn I saw the same genre in the Sims how many years ago? And Sports are new? That's not inventing a genre. They made it so you can swing a stick and call it bowing. While it's neat for a bit, I think saying that it's a whole new genre is a lengthy stretch. I'd also argue that Wii Fit simply took a new approach on making exercising more approachable in a video game format but, again, that's not really a whole new genre. I'll give you Pikmin only because I never got around to playing it (though I'd still like to).

Who said I was talking about this year? Animal crossing was very different when it came out.

Just because they don't take off like wildfire and inspire dozens upon dozens of successors doesn't make them not a new genre(although if motion based minigames and Wii Fit stuff aren't creating a huge genre, I don't know what is). And you sidestepped Pikmin because I was right.


And Metroid Prime is not very different from Metroid. It's from a new perspective which you're apparently so ready to label a new game altogether. Your mom is dumb in the face for having raised you wrong.
So first person shooters and 2D shooters are the same thing, huh? I should put Contra and Team Fortress 2 in the same genre?

[itchyeyes]

Now that's blowing things quite a bit out of proportion. The soldiers gathering on a bridge, I agree, a full 50 seconds of that was far too much, but my point was that dialogue you call "worthless" is something many fans actually enjoy. I know I do. The games would be better without it for you, but for a lot of people, that dialogue that's not necassary, but still interesting, is one part of what we enjoy about the games.
So you're telling me, that what people actually enjoy about the MGS games is having information repeated back to them multiple times? Like fans enjoy hearing the same information more than once? It seems to me that if you can still cut out the duplicate explanations by removing the multiple explanations, and still retain the same details and plot. By which I mean you can cut the second part out and still have the same details and story. The actual story loses nothing. Which is to say that the story stays intact. I really don't see how all the repetition adds anything. How does explaining things twice add anything? Please explain that to me. I don't understand please elaborate.

[TheFlyingOrc]

The games would be better without it for you, but for a lot of people, that dialogue that's not necassary, but still interesting, is one part of what we enjoy about the games.

It's simply not true. What he's talking about removing isn't what people love. We're not talking about pointless backstory(like Otacon telling me what anime is in MGS1), we're talking about repeating information, and treating the player like he's retarded. IT IS BAD WRITING. Not stylized, it's BAD. It doesn't add anything to walk me step by step through everything:

Snake: so there's this guy
Colonel: A guy? Let me check my files on guy.
Snake: You have files on guy?
Colonel: We have files on guy and his brother.

Colonel: It seems guy was involved with group x in war y
Snake: Group X? Just like girl? As we have specifically said in 4 previous cutscenes?

Colonel: The same. Our files say he was in that group.
Snake: Group X...I can't believe it...just like girl...
Colonel: Yes. Guy and girl were in group X.

Otacon: Snake, you won't believe how many pictures of us having sex I found on Deviant Art!
Snake: Having What?
Otacon: Sex, snake. It's when two people pleasure each other's genitalia.
Snake: Sex, huh? Sounds like fun.
Otacon: Snake......
Snake: I'll have to try this "deviantart"
Otacon: ...
Snake: ...

edit: The sad thing is that I was trying to be over-the-top but what I posted is pretty accurate.

[violent]

I must just be a sucker for games with long cutscenes, I loved the Xenosaga games (well, 1 and 3 anyway). ;)

There is nothing wrong with cutscenes in my opinion. It is a huge nuisance to those who don't enjoy that particular game but for those that do, more is better (within reason of course).

[fitbabits]

I must just be a sucker for games with long cutscenes, I loved the Xenosaga games (well, 1 and 3 anyway). ;)
This is ever so slightly off topic, but if ever there was a reason for skipping cut scenes... :)

[Blue]

Who said I was talking about this year? Animal crossing was very different when it came out.

Just because they don't take off like wildfire and inspire dozens upon dozens of successors doesn't make them not a new genre(although if motion based minigames and Wii Fit stuff aren't creating a huge genre, I don't know what is). And you sidestepped Pikmin because I was right.


So first person shooters and 2D shooters are the same thing, huh? I should put Contra and Team Fortress 2 in the same genre?

I didn't sidestep Pikmin. I don't know if it's different or not as I haven't played it. Reading 101. Oh, so when you were saying they invent genres you meant they tweak genres. They sample, like Kanye. Gotcha. Animal Crossing may have been different when it first came out but, again, I played the game first when it was called The Sims. And still, that doesn't detract from my point of them slapping new paint and calling it a day (though they didn't even bother doing that with AC). Motion based is, again, neat, but none of the games you mentioned is a new genre which is what you were driving so hard at.

And you cannot be that willfully ignorant to think that the core gameplay of Metroid and Metroid Prime being so close compares to Contra and TF2. Those two games play drastically different where, again, Metroid and Prime do not despite a new perspective. At least think before trying to link random games together with a paper straw.

[Food Nipple]

Overrated:
Rockstar - Really ten different studios, nine of which get by on the coattails of Rockstar North, which has lost any shred of identity since the Houser brothers made them change their name and shit out GTA sequels.

Pandemic - The Star Wars: Battlefront games sucked, Mercs 2 sucked. Latching on to Bioware was the best move they ever made.

Bungie - Played it too safe with the Halo sequels. After three tries they still couldn't get the single player campaign right, and the multiplayer is still primarily a 4v4 experience, despite the fact that big matches are the series' strength.

Underrated

IO: Kane & Lynch might have been rushed, but the Hitman series just keeps getting better. Blood Money has one of the best endings ever, and succeeded years before Assassin's Creed failed at "social stealth".

Starbreeze: The Darkness doesn't get the credit it deserves, and Riddick was a sleeper too.

Nintendo: Still putting out some of the most original software out there. Most of the recycled games are developed by outside studios. If you're tired of Mario Party and Mario Golf, take it up with Hudson and Camelot.

[Gorvi]

So you're telling me, that what people actually enjoy about the MGS games is having information repeated back to them multiple times? Like fans enjoy hearing the same information more than once? It seems to me that if you can still cut out the duplicate explanations by removing the multiple explanations, and still retain the same details and plot. By which I mean you can cut the second part out and still have the same details and story. The actual story loses nothing. Which is to say that the story stays intact. I really don't see how all the repetition adds anything. How does explaining things twice add anything? Please explain that to me. I don't understand please elaborate.
In what cases is information constantly repeated by the same characters? You may have different characters go over the same subject, but you don't have the same things repeated back to you over and over again. I just played through essentially the entire series earlier this year as a refresher leading up to 4 and I don't recall that being an issue at all.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Motion based is, again, neat, but none of the games you mentioned is a new genre which is what you were driving so hard at.

How in any way is Wii sports not a new genre of game?

edit: I do hope you get that over-the-top narcissism in arguments is part of my schtick.

[Gorvi]

Nintendo isn't overrated or underrated, to comment on a different subject. While they do put out some recycled garbage, they also do a lot of new things as well. It's almost like there's 2 Nintendos out there: one who constantly innovates and puts out interesting, new titles (some good, some bad) and one who is always rehashing old franchises to a fault (some good, some bad).

[Blue]

How in any way is Wii sports not a new genre of game?

It's a sports game? The sports genre has been around for a bit now. And if you're going for the argument that waving a stick to simulate bowling is new, I'll give you the stick bit but I've been playing motion controlled games at Arcades long before the Wii came out.

Edit: And yeah, I do. S'why I like you.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Nintendo isn't overrated or underrated, to comment on a different subject. While they do put out some recycled garbage, they also do a lot of new things as well. It's almost like there's 2 Nintendos out there: one who constantly innovates and puts out interesting, new titles (some good, some bad) and one who is always rehashing old franchises to a fault (some good, some bad).

That's because being entirely innovative would be suicide financially. They do the smart thing - keep using what they've got while expanding. It's like having an R&D department at most businesses. You keep making your widgets, but you better believes you're working on gizmos, too.

[TheFlyingOrc]

It's a sports game? The sports genre has been around for a bit now. And if you're going for the argument that waving a stick to simulate bowling is new, I'll give you the stick bit but I've been playing motion controlled games at Arcades long before the Wii came out.

Edit: And yeah, I do. S'why I like you.
Good, you worthless pile of human refuse. Watch as TFO exposes you for the fool you are.

Sports genre? The style of play of a "sports" game Wii sports could not be more different - it would be like calling Mario 64 and Mario Party the same thing. Seriously, play Wii baseball and madden and show me a single aspect they have in common.

Also, arcades don't count because your mother is a whore and loves dicks more than I love calling her a whore who loves dicks.

[Superman's Dead]

At the risk of opening a can of worms

Well played, fitbabits. Well played.

[Tron]

I like how the two of them think going back and forth will somehow change the other person's mind.

[Blue]

Good, you worthless pile of human refuse. Watch as TFO exposes you for the fool you are.

Sports genre? The style of play of a "sports" game Wii sports could not be more different - it would be like calling Mario 64 and Mario Party the same thing. Seriously, play Wii baseball and madden and show me a single aspect they have in common.

Also, arcades don't count because your mother is a whore and loves dicks more than I love calling her a whore who loves dicks.

Wii baseball and Madden both have grass. And a stadium. I win.

My mom has a shirt that says "I love cocks." Though my dad was a cop which makes me think the shirt was a misprint but she's a frugal woman (whore) so she kept it anyway.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I like how the two of them think going back and forth will somehow change the other person's mind.

At this point we MIGHT be just having fun.

[Tron]

At this point we MIGHT be just having fun.

Your love of Nintendo makes sense now ;)

[TheFlyingOrc]

Your love of Nintendo makes sense now ;)

I do love Nintendo, but this year we've had a bit of a falling out. We're certainly not as close as we used to be.

[Kelegacy]

Bioware - as a console-centric gamer, I still wish they'd go back to their PC days of glory. Man have I lost interest in their games. I couldn't stay interested in Mass Effect.

Bungie - I had fun with the first Halo, a decent time with the second, and the third was just alright, but Bungie shouldn't be placed on a pedestal. I find them average at best, and they can't seem to understand how to make a game without implementing either annoying features gamers hated from previous games or without recycling assets to make terribly designed SP levels. And backtracking. Blah.

Nintendo - I used to love 'em, but now I expect more out of them. Too many games with Mario and gang, the same Zelda and other franchises recycled each generation...I want some more diversity and new franchises....and not that Wii Casual non-game stuff.

Red Octane and Harmonix. Just because.

Underrated...I have no idea.

[Hemalin]

Insomniac and Bethesda underrated? Insomniac maybe, but Bethesda has gotten plenty of praise for Oblivion and Fallout 3.(Whether deserving or not)

[DarkDay]

To be fair, I could say the same about 90% of Wii games.

And you would be right.

[KingGorilla]

Bungie - I had fun with the first Halo, a decent time with the second, and the third was just alright, but Bungie shouldn't be placed on a pedestal. I find them average at best, and they can't seem to understand how to make a game without implementing either annoying features gamers hated from previous games or without recycling assets to make terribly designed SP levels. And backtracking. Blah.
After Halo 2, arguably after the first Halo. Bungie's creative team got pretty sick of Halo. It is the stagnation of repetition. They have wanted to make a RTS for a long time, close to ten years now, but just kept having to crank out more Halo.

Same could be said for EALA just having to crank out Command and Conquer.

[DarkDay]

Huh.. I loved Halo3, all games have issues but it was a blast and so packed with features I didn't always know where to start.

Halo 2. now that was a different matter.

[Blue]

Huh.. I loved Halo3, all games have issues but it was a blast and so packed with features I didn't always know where to start.

Halo 2. now that was a different matter.

I agree. I have a really good time with all of the Halo games and have always found them to be very enjoyable. Halo 3 is still better than a good many FPS titles that came out when it did. Not all, but it's certainly not the clunker of a game many hold it out to be. Maybe that's why Bungie is overrated: people expect their games (traditionally) to be infallible which isn't going to happen.

There are times I almost wish the first Halo wasn't so groundbreaking to some people. If not, I honestly think Halo 2 and 3 may have been better received. But, it doesn't really matter overall I suppose as I enjoyed it.

[tombofsoldier]

I think almost everyone is overrated these days. Hundreds of games and only a handful of decent ones. I'll go with 1 of each I suppose:

Overrated: Valve
Underrated: NIS

I knew someone would post this just to because they could :p

Every last game being incredibly highly rated by critics and players, innovative, funny, free updates, great post release support, and they even go so far as to personally answer random fans e-mails. BUT THEY DON'T GIVE ME FREE MONEY!!! Obviously overrated :cool:

Blizzard built its foundation from Gamesworkshop not having a savvy legal team.
I disagree with you on almost everything, maybe because you seem so negative and I'm a positive person. I think they might have made a mistake merging, but any mention of their record is almost untouchable. Every last game since Warcraft 2 rated an A by critics, every game a huge profit turner, every game loved by fans, every last game on the top 100 games of all time list, and you still have to mention them? C'mon, that's like saying Awesome Man! saving small children isn't all that awesome because people have saved small children before.

[Adam Blue]

Same could be said for EALA just having to crank out Command and Conquer.

Nah, I'm sure most of the guys there are big into RTS's. They decided to go the Tiberium route over RA3, which showed me dedication personally.

Although I'm sure Bungie is wanting to tell a story with Halo, no matter the genre.

[violent]

I knew someone would post this just to because they could :p

Every last game being incredibly highly rated by critics and players, innovative, funny, free updates, great post release support, and they even go so far as to personally answer random fans e-mails. BUT THEY DON'T GIVE ME FREE MONEY!!! Obviously overrated :cool:


You care to know why I think so or have you already got me figured out?

[Disgustipated]

It's simply not true. What he's talking about removing isn't what people love. We're not talking about pointless backstory(like Otacon telling me what anime is in MGS1), we're talking about repeating information, and treating the player like he's retarded. IT IS BAD WRITING. Not stylized, it's BAD. It doesn't add anything to walk me step by step through everything:

Snake: so there's this guy
Colonel: A guy? Let me check my files on guy.
Snake: You have files on guy?
Colonel: We have files on guy and his brother.

Colonel: It seems guy was involved with group x in war y
Snake: Group X? Just like girl? As we have specifically said in 4 previous cutscenes?

Colonel: The same. Our files say he was in that group.
Snake: Group X...I can't believe it...just like girl...
Colonel: Yes. Guy and girl were in group X.

Otacon: Snake, you won't believe how many pictures of us having sex I found on Deviant Art!
Snake: Having What?
Otacon: Sex, snake. It's when two people pleasure each other's genitalia.
Snake: Sex, huh? Sounds like fun.
Otacon: Snake......
Snake: I'll have to try this "deviantart"
Otacon: ...
Snake: ...

edit: The sad thing is that I was trying to be over-the-top but what I posted is pretty accurate.

Holy shit, I ROFL'd. Your parody is spot-on. "Group X... I can't believe it... girl was in group X" specifically is right on the money.

I <3 the MGS series, but still... awesome.

[Talon]

One word, one number - Killzone 2.

How they got the reputation they have now (of being a AAA developer) is simply beyond me. Hence why I added them to the overrated list.

Since when do they have that reputation? I think it's clear that they were in over their heads with Killzone 1 being labeled a "Halo killer," and they produced a decent game in Killzone Liberation. In terms of Killzone 2, I would characterize the gaming press' anticipation as "Cautious Enthusiasm" based on the demo and, well, the tech.

I understand the rehash argument with Nintendo, but it doesn't bother me too much because of the quality of their games when they get around to releasing them. Super Mario Galaxy was utterly fantastic as a platformer and was about a joyful as a product I've played in years. Twilight Princess deservedly gets a lot of hate, but it was by no means nothing worse than a very good game. Sometimes you don't have to redefine your genre in order to make a great game. Now, in terms of Zelda, yes they need to change up that formula, and the next one is planned to be quite different...or so Miyamoto says.

I came in here to state that Bungie is overrated, but I'm not so sure that they are. Yeah, the level design in the Halo games tend to deteriorate as you get further in the games once the you-know-what shows up, but the series has provided so many of the best FPS moments on consoles. The Silent Cartographer is probably the best level in the series, and The Covenant was an absolute blast. They do a quality job with the set pieces, and the dozen or so weapons are actually all worth using. Not to mention that the multiplayer experience for 3 is of such higher quality (netcode, interface, parties, etc.) than the competition's (namely Gears and COD).

I still think that Bungie needs to move away from the FPS genre, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't looking forward to ODST and anything else they produce.

[tombofsoldier]

You care to know why I think so or have you already got me figured out?

Ok, they are overrated because.... ? You didn't give any reason, it's not like Valve has any super hype. The most I've seen is "I don't usually pre-order games, but Valve is making this one so I guess I will".

If there's something I've not covered then ok, but I can't think of anything.

[pomeroy]

Overrated: Team Ico. Shadow was awesome, but I just don't get the love for Ico.

Underrated: Sega in general. I think they get shit on because they've just let Sonic get away from them, but they do put out some quality releases.

[menage]

Overrated: Team Ico. Shadow was awesome, but I just don't get the love for Ico.

Underrated: Sega in general. I think they get shit on because they've just let Sonic get away from them, but they do put out some quality releases.

Man, I loved Ico, that game actually made me buy a PS2, I even got MGS2 in the pack but didn't play it before I made my way through it. Just fantastic.

Sega, I kinda agree that they put out some good stuff as well (mainly as a publisher, Total War and such, and they publish platinum games which is good). But for every good thing there's also a Golden Axe.

Insomniac

Insomniac has been going down the drain imo. I used to love them but the Ratchet games have grown stale (as in no freaking progress whatsoever, Ratchet 2 and 3 were the highlights) and Resistance just doesn't interest me with it's generic universe. If it would have been any other setting I would have tried it, now I just don't care.

[crazyD]

I agree. I have a really good time with all of the Halo games and have always found them to be very enjoyable. Halo 3 is still better than a good many FPS titles that came out when it did. Not all, but it's certainly not the clunker of a game many hold it out to be. Maybe that's why Bungie is overrated: people expect their games (traditionally) to be infallible which isn't going to happen.

There are times I almost wish the first Halo wasn't so groundbreaking to some people. If not, I honestly think Halo 2 and 3 may have been better received. But, it doesn't really matter overall I suppose as I enjoyed it.

Being better then a good many FPSs isn't that much of an accomplishment, as a good many FPSs are below average. I consider Bungie to be overrated because their games are mediocre, and a ton of people seem to think they are something special.

Overrated: Team Ico. Shadow was awesome, but I just don't get the love for Ico.

I loved Ico as it was an interesting and beautiful merge of adventure games and platforming.

[Shieldmaiden]

For overrated, I'd have to say all of Rockstar bar Rockstar North, but only because the plebs don't know the difference.

A couple of years ago I'd have said Nintendo too, but fanboy extremism seems to have cooled recently.

[MagGnome]

Overrated:

Epic Games - Big men with big guns and big gore. They've done this over and over - BORING!
Rare LTD - not as overrated as they were earlier this decade, but still
Factor 5 - Not anymore! (sorry, too soon?)
Bioware - I haven't been excited about a Bioware game since Baldur's Gate 2.
Bethesda - Their games may be grand in scope, but they are horribly lacking in polish, and the art department needs to be restaffed, especially the character designers. I played a LOT of Morrowind, and the whole time I wished that it had been developed by a different studio.

Underrated:

Triumph Studios (one of my favorites, made Age of Wonders series and Overlord)


Those are just off the top of my head. I'll try to make a full list of 10 later today or tomorrow, when I have more time to think about it.

[Blue]

Being better then a good many FPSs isn't that much of an accomplishment, as a good many FPSs are below average. I consider Bungie to be overrated because their games are mediocre, and a ton of people seem to think they are something special.

To each their own. I guess my overall point was that I don't personally find them overrated nor hold them on high like many are apt to do, just that I never had a problem with any of the Halo titles. Loved them all and had a great time with them. And, too, I think Oni needs a sequel something fierce.

Bungie hasn't really let me down yet in the fun department.

[itchyeyes]

Rare LTD (not as overrated as they were earlier this decade, but still)
I'd actually argue that Rare's a bit underrated now. Their popularity saw a steep drop after PDZ and Kameo that they've never really recovered from. Yet their last 3 games have been remarkably solid (and competitively priced to boot), and have gone almost completely unnoticed.

[MagGnome]

I'd actually argue that Rare's a bit underrated now. Their popularity saw a steep drop after PDZ and Kameo that they've never really recovered from. Yet their last 3 games have been remarkably solid (and competitively priced to boot), and have gone almost completely unnoticed.

Viva Pinata is great, although releasing the same game twice doesn't improve their image in my eyes. I can't speak for Banja Kazooie.

Still, after re-releasing Conker (instead of a new one), Grabbed by the Ghoulies, PDZ, and Kameo, I'd say they have a pretty big hole to dig themselves out of. Not to mention several mediocre N64 and Gamecube titles, such as Donkey Kong 64 and Starfox Adventures.

[MagGnome]

Overrated:

Stardock (they've produced several great games, but developed is a different matter entirely)

Underrated:

Ironclad (It's gotta suck seeing Stardock get all the credit for your game)

I can somewhat agree with this, in that it is unfair that Stardock gets nearly all of the credit for Sins of a Solar Empire.

Still, Stardock did develop both GalCiv games, which are great.

[Blue]

Still, after re-releasing Conker (instead of a new one), Grabbed by the Ghoulies, PDZ, and Kameo, I'd say they have a pretty big hole to dig themselves out of. Not to mention several mediocre N64 and Gamecube titles, such as Donkey Kong 64 and Starfox Adventures.

I dunno, I loved Ghoulies and Kameo was pretty great too. PDZ certainly could have been better, but I'm still willing to give Rare the benefit of the doubt, though I think I'm one of two people who really dug Ghoulies :).

[TheKeck]

Ok, they are overrated because.... ? You didn't give any reason, it's not like Valve has any super hype. The most I've seen is "I don't usually pre-order games, but Valve is making this one so I guess I will".

If there's something I've not covered then ok, but I can't think of anything.
I think it's funny that you say this. People are freaking crazy about Valve. I know I am. Don't consider them overrated at all. ;)

[crazyD]

To each their own. I guess my overall point was that I don't personally find them overrated nor hold them on high like many are apt to do, just that I never had a problem with any of the Halo titles. Loved them all and had a great time with them. And, too, I think Oni needs a sequel something fierce.

Bungie hasn't really let me down yet in the fun department.

I don't hold them on high either, but consider them overrated because so many others do.

[Tron]

Epic Games - Big men with big guns and big gore. They've done this over and over - BORING!.

If you vastly oversimplify their games then yes. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that they've left id years behind in terms of licensing of their engine. Epic's impact extends far beyond their own games. Their engine is the de facto standard and many of the best games have used it.

Plus their games have universally been a critical and commercial success.

I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm just saying I don't agree with you! ;)

[itchyeyes]

I can somewhat agree with this, in that it is unfair that Stardock gets nearly all of the credit for Sins of a Solar Empire.

Still, Stardock did develop both GalCiv games, which are great.
Don't get me wrong. I love me some Gal Civ, and can't wait to try out Elemental: WoM. What they've done to date has been fantastic, but they really haven't done all that much (development-wise). And they do deserve some credit for Sins, as they worked very closely with Ironclad on that project. It just irks me how everyone praises Stardock for what a great job they did with Sins and pretty much completely ignores Ironclad.

Also, I've got another nomination for underrated:

Introversion

[Blue]

I don't hold them on high either, but consider them overrated because so many others do.

Ah, gotcha. That I could certainly agree with.

[KingGorilla]

Halo stock seems to have fallen. Gears and Call of Duty are the shooters of choice on the Xbox now. CoD 4 being the top played Live game over Halo last year was something amazing. It became a game for Halo Fans very quickly, a seemingly smaller and smaller bunch. But then again the shooter fan is a fickle creature. Most Quake 3 players moved to Ut 2004 rather briskly and then to TF2 and Call of Duty not so long after that.

[violent]

Ok, they are overrated because.... ? You didn't give any reason, it's not like Valve has any super hype. The most I've seen is "I don't usually pre-order games, but Valve is making this one so I guess I will".

If there's something I've not covered then ok, but I can't think of anything.

When I use the term overrated I don't use it as a term to say that Valve's games aren't good but rather the reaction they get from the communities. I personally love Valves games but their treatment goes beyond that of their delivery. My best example at this moment is Left 4 Dead. I won't argue that the game is not absolutely fantastic. It is. My point is though that no other company would have gotten the free pass they did to get away with so little content at retail price. 4 acts for campaign and 2 for multi. While those alone deliver a shit ton of fun, I think anyone else would have still gotten shit considering how long the game was in the works and the price we paid.

So again, me calling them overrated isn't a testament to their work but rather of their reception in the community.

[MagGnome]

Don't get me wrong. I love me some Gal Civ, and can't wait to try out Elemental: WoM. What they've done to date has been fantastic, but they really haven't done all that much (development-wise). And they do deserve some credit for Sins, as they worked very closely with Ironclad on that project. It just irks me how everyone praises Stardock for what a great job they did with Sins and pretty much completely ignores Ironclad.

Also, I've got another nomination for underrated:

Introversion

I totally get what you are saying, and I agree with you. I guess I see that as people being uninformed more than anything. Publishers too often get credit for the work that developers do.

Introversion is a great addition to the underrated list. I might add them to mine when I update it. Those guys don't get nearly enough love outside of a very hardcore group of players.


If you vastly oversimplify their games then yes. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that they've left id years behind in terms of licensing of their engine. Epic's impact extends far beyond their own games. Their engine is the de facto standard and many of the best games have used it.

Plus their games have universally been a critical and commercial success.

I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm just saying I don't agree with you! ;)

Epic's games are boring and generic IMHO. Gears is alright, but the buff space marine thing has been overdone for years now.

I hate Unreal Engine 3. Nearly every game that uses it looks basically the same (a fault of the developers/publishers more than Epic I guess), and the texture pop in in that engine is ludicrous.

[crazyD]

My best example at this moment is Left 4 Dead. I won't argue that the game is not absolutely fantastic. It is. My point is though that no other company would have gotten the free pass they did to get away with so little content at retail price. 4 acts for campaign and 2 for multi. While those alone deliver a shit ton of fun, I think anyone else would have still gotten shit considering how long the game was in the works and the price we paid.

I never really get that argument. They have 4 campaigns with multiple levels. Each campaign takes quite some time to beat, and are very replayable. I have no problem paying $50 for the amount of content provided at launch, and there will be more added along the line.

[Tron]

I hate Unreal Engine 3. Nearly every game that uses it looks basically the same (a fault of the developers/publishers more than Epic I guess), and the texture pop in in that engine is ludicrous.

I have yet to see a game that looks the same. Bioshock vs. Mass Effect vs. Rainbow 6 vs. Gears 2 vs Mirrors Edge. They all look completely different.

You hate the engine? That's a pretty strong opinion towards something that is both highly regarded and benign in nature. :p

The texture pop in was most evident in Mass Effect but that was about it. If that's the criteria by which we should hate game engines then I hate them all.

[violent]

I never really get that argument. They have 4 campaigns with multiple levels. Each campaign takes quite some time to beat, and are very replayable. I have no problem paying $50 for the amount of content provided at launch, and there will be more added along the line.

I'm sure experiences are different for different people but me personally, I saw all of the game in about 4 hours. There would be things to alleviate that fact but as it stands, the game was in works for a long time and it was full retail price.

Again, I still think this game is (as well as most Valve games are) great but I think they get much more lenience than any other developer today.

[Tron]

I'm sure experiences are different for different people but me personally, I saw all of the game in about 4 hours. There would be things to alleviate that fact but as it stands, the game was in works for a long time and it was full retail price..

You can say the same thing about any MP only game. I saw every Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament map in under 4 hours.

[violent]

You can say the same thing about any MP only game. I saw every Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament map in under 4 hours.

Maybe so but they've never been so easily forgiven wouldn't you agree?

[Tron]

Maybe so but they've never been so easily forgiven wouldn't you agree?

What am I forgiving them for?

[violent]

What am I forgiving them for?

You can forgive them for whatever you want. id was overrated at one point and then they delivered a sub-par experience. I can still argue that Epic is overrated. Those are neither here nor there though. I'm talking about Valve. Valve and to a smaller extent, Blizzard have much leeway with consumers. Blizzard already proving that theirs isn't infinite.

[Tron]

Valve has made some of the best games of all time. I can't think of one product that defies that. I don't see them having any leeway because frankly they don't need it.

My humble opinion of course.

[crazyD]

What I believe Tron is asking is, why would we need to forgive Valve for including the standard amount of content for a multiplayer game?

[violent]

Valve has made some of the best games of all time. I can't think of one product that defies that. I don't see them having any leeway because frankly they don't need it.

My humble opinion of course.

I agree and also, this subject is hardly a perfect science. My reason for selecting them was primarily due to consumer reception. Game consumers have become very fickle and are willing to tear pretty much anything a new ass. Anything but Valve it would seem. Sacred Cow and all that. I will say this though, at the risk of sounding the hypocrite, I worship the cow.

[violent]

What I believe Tron is asking is, why would we need to forgive Valve for including the standard amount of content for a multiplayer game?

Remember when Shadowrun did it? I find it very similar to that.

[MagGnome]

Oh sweet I guess Nintendo doesn't release any other games -

Animal Crossing and Pikmin. Wii Sports. Wii Fit. 4 new genre games right freaking there. Disaster: Day of Crisis, though I haven't played it.

Metroid Prime is very different from Metroid, and you're dumb in the face for saying so.

Are you serious?

They've released Animal Crossing FOUR times now. The same damn game, with very slight tweaks/additions, FOUR times. How innovative. :p


Edit - I've seen Codemasters pop up on a few people's underrated lists. Why? I thought that Codemasters was just a publisher. What great games have they developed in house? I'm not trying to put them down; I'm honestly curious.

[crazyD]

Are you serious?

They've released Animal Crossing FOUR times now. The same damn game, with very slight tweaks/additions, FOUR times. How innovative. :p

I thought it was only three? In any case, when first released, Animal Crossing was pretty innovative, and I think that was the point.

[Talon]

Insomniac has been going down the drain imo. I used to love them but the Ratchet games have grown stale (as in no freaking progress whatsoever, Ratchet 2 and 3 were the highlights) and Resistance just doesn't interest me with it's generic universe. If it would have been any other setting I would have tried it, now I just don't care.

Whoa, whoa. What little I've played of Resistance hasn't been too exciting, but I wouldn't call a game set in the 1950's staving off some alien/virus assault generic.

Granted, it's a fusion of the 2 most overused motifs in games (WWII and, well, Aliens), but the combination isn't ho-hum.

[MagGnome]

I have yet to see a game that looks the same. Bioshock vs. Mass Effect vs. Rainbow 6 vs. Gears 2 vs Mirrors Edge. They all look completely different.

You hate the engine? That's a pretty strong opinion towards something that is both highly regarded and benign in nature. :p

The texture pop in was most evident in Mass Effect but that was about it. If that's the criteria by which we should hate game engines then I hate them all.

To be honest I didn't want to discuss the game engine at all, and it wasn't what was on my mind when I said that Epic Games is highly overrated. You brought up Unreal Engine 3, so I figured I'd follow along. :p

I really don't want to argue about this back and forth, so I'll just say that I think that Gears of War is a very overrated series full of big guns and big muscles with little brainpower, that somehow manages to sell millions and millions while far better games tank. It's depressing, and to top it off the bigwigs at Epic seem to be a bunch of dicks.

I get really annoyed when they continue to cry about their falling PC sales despite having not released a good PC title in over four years.

There, I feel better now. :o

[Tron]

To be honest I didn't want to discuss the game engine at all, and it wasn't what was on my mind when I said that Epic Games is highly overrated. You brought up Unreal Engine 3, so I figured I'd follow along. :p

I brought up their engine because that's a huge part of what they do. It adds to the perception of them as a company.

[MagGnome]

I thought it was only three? In any case, when first released, Animal Crossing was pretty innovative, and I think that was the point.

The game originally came out on the Nintendo 64 in Japan. It's still using the SAME engine. N64, Gamecube, DS, and Wii. The same game with a few small additions. When it came out it was pretty cool, although basically Sims on a console, but still fun. They've beaten it into the ground though, which is something that Nintendo excels at.

[MagGnome]

Whoa, whoa. What little I've played of Resistance hasn't been too exciting, but I wouldn't call a game set in the 1950's staving off some alien/virus assault generic.

Granted, it's a fusion of the 2 most overused motifs in games (WWII and, well, Aliens), but the combination isn't ho-hum.

I haven't played Resistance, but your summary sounds pretty generic to me. There are dozens, even hundreds, of movies and games with that exact premise.


I brought up their engine because that's a huge part of what they do. It adds to the perception of them as a company.

I know why you brought it up, but I was referring to their games when I said they are overrated. The engine is a different matter, although it's encouraged the glut of shooters we've had this gen.

[Talon]

I haven't played Resistance, but your summary sounds pretty generic to me. There are dozens, even hundreds, of movies and games with that exact premise.

I'm really struggling to think of any games with that premise, unless it's a handful of random Microprose games from the 90's.

It's been done before, but it's by no means generic.

[Tron]

I'm really struggling to think of any games with that premise, unless it's a handful of random Microprose games from the 90's.

It's been done before, but it's by no means generic.

I think the guy simply hates shooters period. No point in trying to change his mind.

[Church42]

Underrated: 3D Realms

I kid!

[Gorvi]

I haven't played Resistance, but your summary sounds pretty generic to me. There are dozens, even hundreds, of movies and games with that exact premise.
The main difference with Resistance is that the humans are getting their asses kicked. Badly. There's also this whole odd thing in that the bases that the Chimera are in are being excavated, as in they were already here before. It's not the best story, and I want to punch someone at Insomniac for the way R2 ended, but it's still a relatively compelling world they've built.

[H.Bogard]

Overrated:
Rockstar (The GTA Team)
Bethesda
Epic
Bioware

Underrated:
2D Boy
EA Los Angeles
Pandemic (With regards to Mercs 2, which I believe is an excellent game)
Crystal Dynamics
GSC Game World

[Tron]

Underrated:
GSC Game World

Amen to this

[MagGnome]

I think the guy simply hates shooters period. No point in trying to change his mind.

Maybe "the guy" doesn't like to be pigeonholed. :p


I haven't played Resistance, but I actually don't think it deserves the hate/lack of interest that it gets.

[menage]

Whoa, whoa. What little I've played of Resistance hasn't been too exciting, but I wouldn't call a game set in the 1950's staving off some alien/virus assault generic.

Granted, it's a fusion of the 2 most overused motifs in games (WWII and, well, Aliens), but the combination isn't ho-hum.

Maybe it's creative in it's genre. The alien/insect shooter in a torn down world. I just see aliens again, that's fine. but I can only play one a year of those. And for me Gears got there first this gen, and Half Life (2) did it way better a long time ago.

I think Insomniac are capable of much more than that. Their weapon ideas and some of the stuff in earlier Ratchet games really is quality. They just don't break boundaries anymore, they rehash. I've already played those games, and better at this time in gaming as well.

[Talon]

Maybe it's creative in it's genre. The alien/insect shooter in a torn down world. I just see aliens again, that's fine. but I can only play one a year of those. And for me Gears got there first this gen, and Half Life (2) did it way better a long time ago.

I think Insomniac are capable of much more than that. Their weapon ideas and some of the stuff in earlier Ratchet games really is quality. They just don't break boundaries anymore, they rehash. I've already played those games, and better at this time in gaming as well.

Well, they opened a new branch in North Carolina, so hopefully that means we'll see more new IPs from Insomniac. I'm actually glad they picked up the torch from Jet Force Gemini in a way to create the Ratchet games. They just seem to have overdone it already, but they're quality games from what I hear.

[KingGorilla]

Maybe "the guy" doesn't like to be pigeonholed. :p


I haven't played Resistance, but I actually don't think it deserves the hate/lack of interest that it gets.

Resistance is the Halo of the PS3, meaning people who really have not played many better shooters may really like it. It is a perfectly average shooter that a lot of people seem to like out of console loyalty, in other words. Whether it is the schizophrenic nature where it toes the line between Call of Duty and Quake, or the flat out cribbing of Doom and Quake, I cannot tell you. The phrases "Limp Dick" and "Cookie Cutter" come to mind each time I have had Resistance in front of me.

[Blue]

Resistance is the Halo of the PS3, meaning people who really have not played many better shooters may really like it. It is a perfectly average shooter that a lot of people seem to like out of console loyalty, in other words. Whether it is the schizophrenic nature where it toes the line between Call of Duty and Quake, or the flat out cribbing of Doom and Quake, I cannot tell you. The phrases "Limp Dick" and "Cookie Cutter" come to mind each time I have had Resistance in front of me.

As someone who doesn't play anything on the PC, what FPS titles have come out recently that aren't Limp Dick? I'm genuinely curious as I'd like to see if there are some serious contenders or if you're just blowing the PC fanboy whistle.

[Tron]

Maybe "the guy" doesn't like to be pigeonholed. :p.

I'm just going off what you said in this thread! :cool:

[KingGorilla]

As someone who doesn't play anything on the PC, what FPS titles have come out recently that aren't Limp Dick? I'm genuinely curious as I'd like to see if there are some serious contenders or if you're just blowing the PC fanboy whistle.

Fair point, I found the Rainbow Six 3 series of titles and Ghost Recon one and Two to be fine balances between strategy and combat. Call of Duty 2 was a master stroke for IW. Not to mention Episodes 1 and 2 of Half-life, Bioshock ushering in a brand new standard for setting, theme, and story for the genre.

[BlackPete]

For me:

Overrated:

Bungie. I still don't get why people say that Halo was so groundbreaking... there have been other FPS games before Halo existed.

Nintendo. I never thought I'd say this. But lately I find that I haven't looked forward to a Nintendo game since Twilight Princess, and even that was a bit of a disappointment. The Wii is a huge money maker, but to be honest... I haven't turned on my Wii in months.

Rockstar. GTA needs a serious reinvention for me to consider buying the next one. GTA4 definitely doesn't deserve the crazy review ratings it got.

Underrated:

Clover Studios. Yup they're dead now.. but still they died because they were so underrated, dammit!

Bethesda. If only because I'm seeing people here calling them overrated -- however I feel most people don't realize how truly INSANE it is to make a game like Fallout 3.

[muddi900]

The fact that we don't have Valve Day as a national holiday means they are still underrated! ;)

Trudat, y'all!

[The Iron Weasel]

Overrated:
Bungie: I will precede my explanation with this: I LOVE Halo. Though the games are not without fault at all like some people make them out to be. The games did get stale at times, and this could be a fault of being tired of the franchise, but still if your going to do something, do it right.

Valve: I will also precede this explanation with this: I LOVE Half-Life. They really are a great company, but there is a feverish level of love for this company around. I feel the story in HL is a bit shallow for the amount of praise people lavish on it. I don't really like the feel of the firefights in HL as much as other FPS.

Underrated:
Monolith: I LOVE this companies games, yet they never get the love I feel they deserve. F.E.A.R. still has the best firefights in any FPS ever. Yes I said it. NOLF and NOLF2 are still shining examples of how to pull off a great game with a great sense of humor, I'd KILL to see another one. Condemned 1 & 2 are both pretty fantastic (Despite some sloppy storytelling).

[Tron]

I feel the story in HL is a bit shallow for the amount of praise people lavish on it.

People aren't praising it for it's story though :confused:

[rinichanraar]

Overrated:
Valve: I will also precede this explanation with this: I LOVE Half-Life. They really are a great company, but there is a feverish level of love for this company around.

I'd have to agree with you there. While I can easily see why everyone wants to suck Valve's dick (okay, sorry for the weird imagery there), I feel like there is a very big group of fans who are a little overzealous.

[H.Bogard]

I'd have to agree with you there. While I can easily see why everyone wants to suck Valve's dick (okay, sorry for the weird imagery there), I feel like there is a very big group of fans who are a little overzealous.

I think its got to do with their flawless record. They've never made a game that wasn't acclaimed by gamers and critics alike. Portal is the pinnacle.

Personally, I'm an Akira Yamaoka fanboy. :D

[rinichanraar]

I think its got to do with their flawless record. They've never made a game that wasn't acclaimed by gamers and critics alike. Portal is the pinnacle.

Personally, I'm an Akira Yamaoka fanboy. :D

Oh, yeah, I don't blame anyone for being a huge Valve fan. It's totally justified. I just think there are several out there who are a little too eager to kiss Valve's ass.

Also: Akira Yamaoka is great! :)

[menage]

I think its got to do with their flawless record. They've never made a game that wasn't acclaimed by gamers and critics alike. Portal is the pinnacle.

My problem with that is, is that they really haven't made that many games. Half Life 1 & 2 and the episodes and a zillion pack versions of that. Team Fortess, Portal, L4D. That's it right? Most of their rep is based on HL.

Now those are all great. And it's better to do some good stuff than a load of crap. But is not a huge library, And some stuff like Ep 1 quite frankly was stretching it.

[Ondo]

They've beaten it into the ground though, which is something that Nintendo excels at.
Excel at it? Come now. Nintendo occasionally does a decent job of beating a game into the ground, like Animal Crossing, but they'll never excel at it until they learn to up the frequency of their releases. A franchise that only gets one game per console will never be able to compete with something like Mega Man.

[H.Bogard]

My problem with that is, is that they really haven't made that many games. Half Life 1 & 2 and the episodes and a zillion pack versions of that. Team Fortess, Portal, L4D. That's it right? Most of their rep is based on HL.

Now those are all great. And it's better to do some good stuff than a load of crap. But is not a huge library, And some stuff like Ep 1 quite frankly was stretching it.

Name another developer with that many games that have had millions in sales along with 80-100% scores.

[Blue]

Fair point, I found the Rainbow Six 3 series of titles and Ghost Recon one and Two to be fine balances between strategy and combat. Call of Duty 2 was a master stroke for IW. Not to mention Episodes 1 and 2 of Half-life, Bioshock ushering in a brand new standard for setting, theme, and story for the genre.

I will say I agree with all of these (outside of Rainbow/Ghost though that's only because they're not my bag, but that doesn't detract from them as great games) only I experienced them on a console. I'm sure for some that's sacrilege, but for whatever reason, a keyboard and mouse just never gelled with me. I'm much more fluid when using a controller for FPS games. Not sure why.

[KingGorilla]

It is not a control thing with Resistance, I would say it occupies the same space as Far Cry 2 or the FEAR sequels. Thematically and execution wise it cribs from better shooters, and does so poorly. If I did not play so many of them, I would not notice. Hence my premise that, like Halo on the Xbox, if you are not very familiar with the genre it will strike a completely different chord. I see what it took from Wolfenstein, Quake, Unreal, and find it lacking.

[Blue]

It is not a control thing with Resistance, I would say it occupies the same space as Far Cry 2 or the FEAR sequels. Thematically and execution wise it cribs from better shooters, and does so poorly. If I did not play so many of them, I would not notice. Hence my premise that, like Halo on the Xbox, if you are not very familiar with the genre it will strike a completely different chord. I see what it took from Wolfenstein, Quake, Unreal, and find it lacking.

That I suppose I can't disagree with, though one could toss out the "no original ideas" argument with just about anything. If I looked hard enough I could see what many of those games yanked from film, book, etc. I won't argue that some of the games you listed did gameplay better in certain aspects but I would argue that just because some elements were borrowed doesn't immediately discount it either. I suppose my point is, I've played survival horror games many times over and loved the Thing, Alien, and Event Horizon, but Dead Space still delivers despite having experienced all of those and simply having seen it before in a different coat doesn't take away from what's actually there.

[KingGorilla]

I still need to grab Dead Space, hopefully I can drive from my mind it was originally designed as System Shock 3. Is it on Steam yet?

[Blue]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/17470/

That's oddly how I approached Bioshock in a way. I know that they pulled from other titles for inspiration but the overall presentation is such that it's still an amazing experience. I'm finding the same to be true for Dead Space although it did take me a few chapters to get settled into enjoying myself.

[TheFlyingOrc]

They've released Animal Crossing FOUR times now. The same damn game, with very slight tweaks/additions, FOUR times. How innovative. :p

When it came out, it was a new idea. I was arguing that it was a genre Nintendo created.

Viva Pinata is the same type of game, whatever you want to call the genre.

[TheFlyingOrc]

The main difference with Resistance is that the humans are getting their asses kicked. Badly. There's also this whole odd thing in that the bases that the Chimera are in are being excavated, as in they were already here before. It's not the best story, and I want to punch someone at Insomniac for the way R2 ended, but it's still a relatively compelling world they've built.
Dude, that sounds exactly like Gears.

[Gorvi]

Dude, that sounds exactly like Gears.
Seriously? That's an odd coincidence.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Excel at it? Come now. Nintendo occasionally does a decent job of beating a game into the ground, like Animal Crossing, but they'll never excel at it until they learn to up the frequency of their releases. A franchise that only gets one game per console will never be able to compete with something like Mega Man.

The difference is being in the spotlight and their big games getting so much light. They certainly reuse the Mario motif, but there's been 4 mainline mario games since 1996, counting handhelds.

And only 11 of them ever, counting Yoshi's Island(which you shouldn't).

[menage]

Name another developer with that many games that have had millions in sales along with 80-100% scores.

Ehm, Blizzard? They have more, but if you see how long they exist I would put them in the same group.

[KingGorilla]

What do sales have to do with quality? EA sold a fuck load of Sims 2 Ikea packs. Or is it just that great fanboy logic of, it sells a lot so you are wrong for not thinling it is the finest artistic achievement since the Blue Period?

[TheFlyingOrc]

Seriously? That's an odd coincidence.

Gears has the humans on the losing side of a war versus creatures that attacked from below the surface of the planet. I won't say they ripped them off because of how closely they came out, but still, every "Humans vs. Outsiders" plot is pretty similar.

Actually, Halo 3 ended up kinda like that, with the alien ark thingie being on Earth and all.

edit: And don't get me started on how Halo's "Space Marines VS Religious energy-weapon using aliens VS Hive Minded dudes who can take on host bodies is the EXACT SAME RACES as Starcraft.

[Gorvi]

What do sales have to do with quality? EA sold a fuck load of Sims 2 Ikea packs. Or is it just that great fanboy logic of, it sells a lot so you are wrong for not thinling it is the finest artistic achievement since the Blue Period?
Sales have absolutely nothing to do with quality, I wish more people would actually see that. Higher sales ≠ a better game.

[menage]

Yeah,

poor Okami. sniff.

[Gorvi]

Gears has the humans on the losing side of a war versus creatures that attacked from below the surface of the planet. I won't say they ripped them off because of how closely they came out, but still, every "Humans vs. Outsiders" plot is pretty similar.

Actually, Halo 3 ended up kinda like that, with the alien ark thingie being on Earth and all.
That's kinda interesting. I like plots like that I guess if only because you don't see them too often. At least not in games, anyway. When I finally re-up with LIVE I'll have to pick up the GoW games and bribe someone into some co-op with me.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Sales have absolutely nothing to do with quality, I wish more people would actually see that. Higher sales ≠ a better game.

It would seem that it would if your opinion of what is purchasable goes along with the mainstreams. The only thing you can say definitively is that higher sales don't equal a better game to Gorvi. :)

[SilentScreams]

I don't think Nintendo is under or overrated. I think people see them for exactly what they are. They pump out casual shovelware occasionally supplemented by a big title that's actually not bad, and in doing so they become richer than God.

Underrated for me is Starbreeze.
The Darkness is one of the best shooters I've played. The Riddick games are great, and Knights of the Temple was pretty damn good too.

Overrated is Bungie.
They put out the same generic shooter 3 times and made craploads of money on each.

[Gorvi]

It would seem that it would if your opinion of what is purchasable goes along with the mainstreams. The only thing you can say definitively is that higher sales don't equal a better game to Gorvi. :)
Well, that's normally not the case. ;) If I like it, chances are it's a game that won't sell. :(

[TheFlyingOrc]

Well, that's normally not the case. ;) If I like it, chances are it's a game that won't sell. :(

Well, your only option is to change what you like.

Want me to rent Meet the Spartans on DVD and come on over to your place?

[Gorvi]

Well, your only option is to change what you like.

Want me to rent Meet the Spartans on DVD and come on over to your place?
I think I'd prefer ritual suicide. ;)

Man, of all the lines from movies, why is it that one that popped into my head....?

[H.Bogard]

Ehm, Blizzard? They have more, but if you see how long they exist I would put them in the same group.

There you go. Any developer of this kind will have people who appreciate their quality of work unquestionably.

[tombofsoldier]

Overrated is Bungie.
They put out the same generic shooter 3 times and made craploads of money on each.

Be fair now, there are plenty of people like me that had played tons of fps games before and still thought Halo 1 was awesome. Two and three? Now those were generic shooters.

[KingGorilla]

I will say again, Halo was the culmination of almost ten years of work. The subsequent ones were Microsoft cracking the whip on their new Halo studio. Halo 3's reception as the red headed step child to CoD 4 and Gears of War speaks volumes to the effect that had on the "franchise." I don't think anyone would evangelize Microsoft as a publisher, but man do they give kryptonite out to developers. I can think of half a dozen things they touched that withered and died.

[Karak]

Webtangent.
Or whomever is making Fate right now.

Best damn game I ever purchased.

[Karak]

Be fair now, there are plenty of people like me that had played tons of fps games before and still thought Halo 1 was awesome. Two and three? Now those were generic shooters.

Shakes head.
I am in the camp of loving them all and proud of it.

[H.Bogard]

I'd like to mention the Arx Fatalis guys (Arcane Studios, I think they're called). Dark Messiah is a one-of-a-kind PC game that unfortunately no one drew inspiration from.

[Variable Gear]

Overrated: Bethesda, EA, Rockstar, DICE, Neversoft, Ubisoft, Team Ninja, Capcom, Nintendo, Square-Enix, Tri-Ace, Konami, Valve, Bungie, Infinity Ward and Treasure.

Underrated: None that I know of.

[menage]

Overrated: Bethesda, EA, Rockstar, DICE, Neversoft, Ubisoft, Team Ninja, Capcom, Nintendo, Square-Enix, Tri-Ace, Konami, Valve, Bungie, Infinity Ward and Treasure.

Underrated: None that I know of.

Wow,

feeling down today:P?

[Variable Gear]

Wow,

feeling down today:P?
Nope. I just think that the majority of developers are overrated. Is that wrong?

[menage]

Nope. I just think that the majority of developers are overrated. Is that wrong?

No, of course not.

But I really can't imagine how anyone would name Capcom or Treasure for that matter.

[Variable Gear]

No, of course not.

But I really can't imagine how anyone would name Capcom or Treasure for that matter.
Mega Man 9 was great, but Mega Man Battle Network 4 was not. I'm happy I haven't kept up with the series since then. I think that a game that mixed conventional Mega Man platforming and MMBN deck-building strategy could be a huge success, if only Capcom would remove the RPG window dressing from the game entirely (and not make it as terrible as Mega Man Network Transmission), but Capcom seems incapable of considering the validity of that path. Treasure has had their recent flops as well, with Wario World and Sin and Punishment. Sin and Punishment was a good concept, but it's just fucking awkward to play. I look forward to Sin and Punishment 2 as a project that has the potential to smooth out the controls of the original game, but it's not a sure bet for me.

[menage]

Wow, you're on a totally different train of thought than I am then.

I thought we we're talking about developers as a whole. I mean Capcom practically reinvented the fighting game with SF2, created Survival Horror, etc

We wouldn't even be playing Silent Hill, Gears or Dead Space like they are now without them. They were a huge influence on how we play games today and you're complaining about Megaman Battle Network, A game aimed at the Pokemon generation?

[Variable Gear]

We wouldn't even be playing Silent Hill, Gears or Dead Space like they are now without them. They were a huge influence on how we play games today and you're complaining about Megaman Battle Network, A game aimed at the Pokemon generation?
I'm judging developers by what they've done lately, so maybe it is a difference in approach. I'd argue that your approach is ridiculous, because you are allowing years of innovation can make up for an inability to transition into the modern age of gaming. With your train of thought, I can't criticize Nintendo since they created the blueprint for the three-dimensional platformer and the template for the three-dimensional adventure game. That's great, but it doesn't justify the stagnation of the Animal Crossing franchise or the decrease in quality of recent Zelda games.

[menage]

I'm judging developers by what they've done lately, so maybe it is a difference in approach. I'd argue that your approach is ridiculous, because you are allowing years of innovation can make up for an inability to transition into the modern age of gaming. With your train of thought, I can't criticize Nintendo since they created the blueprint for the three-dimensional platformer and the template for the three-dimensional adventure game. That's great, but it doesn't justify the stagnation of the Animal Crossing franchise or the decrease in quality of recent Zelda games.

Oh come on. Nintendo practically reinvented the way most people play games this gen with the DS and Wii Mote alone. And SFIV, Dead Rising, Monster Hunter, Dark Void and Resi 5 hardly seem like an inability to transition into the modern age of gaming.

Maybe you just don't like what they're doing with it, but I would hardly call it inability.

[Variable Gear]

Oh come on. Nintendo practically reinvented the way most people play games this gen with the DS and Wii Mote alone. And SFIV, Dead Rising, Monster Hunter, Dark Void and Resi 5 hardly seem like an inability to transition into the modern age of gaming.

Maybe you just don't like what they're doing with it, but I would hardly call it inability.
Nintendo provided the platform, sure, but I haven't seen a game for the Wii that uses all of its features in an outstanding way. Maybe MadWorld or The Conduit will be that showpiece game, but I won't be sure until they are out. The DS is different, since it has been out for a longer period of time, but the second screen still feels like a gimmick at times.

And, about Capcom, it's great that they are able to sell retouched versions of Street Fighter II Turbo in 2008, but, outside of their focus on digital distribution, they've done little to convince me that they understand what this generation is about. We'll see what else they have planned for 2009, since I'm not excited about anything that they've already announced.

[Deadend]

Overrated:
The Behemoth - Alien Hominid was not that fucking good. Castle Crashers has that weird part about characters being paper thin and requiring you to line up to the exact plane to hit, but we all gave into the hype for the game anyhow.

Blizzard: Possibly the least innovative and original studio out there, their games outside of the original Diablo are the exact image of 'playing it safe'. Their games are great, but they are not unique, they are just iterations on previous games and ideas.

Infinity Ward - CoD 4's level design wasn't THAT great, it had clown cars everywhere, a fairly meh plotline. They do, however deserve props for being the first to put an XP bar like that into a game and those 3 awesome moments in the SP campaign.

Guerrilla Games - Seriously, Killzone 2 is the most overhyped game this generation. The expectation that it will turn out to be anything other than mediocre with good graphics by the PS3 fanboys is going in sharp contrast to the studio's history of mediocre.

Underrated:

5th Cell - Lock's Quest is really fucking awesome, Drawn to Life was about getting user created content into a game... they are building games about fostering creativity and no one notices.

Obsidian: Worst fucking coders of buggy games... that also have some of the best scenarios, writing, quests and classes in RPGs.. if these guys had enough time and coders to put out a AAA game, everyone would forget BioWare.

Treyarch: Their games aren't that great.. but they are not as nearly bad as everyone wants to accuse the studio of.

Volition: Saints Row 2 had some of the best action around in 2008, full co-op, giant open fairly good looking world, car handling that felt great, jets that felt great, silly ass side missions, and Red Faction could turn out good... now if only they could do another Summoner. They deserve credit for out GTA'ing Rockstar North.

Relic: Possibly the only studio (that isn't closed) that has ideas on how RTS games should evolve, makers of the best RTS games of the last 4 years that stand out from everything else out there.

[Tron]

Treyarch: Their games aren't that great.. but they are not as nearly bad as everyone wants to accuse the studio of.

They really are that bad...the fact that they haven't been allowed to go out of business tells me they are HIGHLY OVERRATED. :p

[BlackPete]

I'm torn on Obsidian. I can see where you're coming from, but KOTOR2 kinda left a sour taste in too many gamer mouths.

[Deadend]

I'm torn on Obsidian. I can see where you're coming from, but KOTOR2 kinda left a sour taste in too many gamer mouths.

Did you not play the first chunk of the game? The part where the nature of good and evil is talked about and that doing the nice thing isn't always the good thing? That game was DEEP. It was also done in less than a year. Their Neverwinter squeals have also been done at a fairly short time window and going from a bad start each time. They need to be with a publisher that will give them the time and resources needed to make the games they can make. Well, here is hoping Alpha Protocol turns out to be a better Mass Effect.

[mister slim]

Overrated: Ubisoft Montreal
Underrated: Ubisoft Montreal

Overrated: Radical, Etranges Libellules, whoever is making the next Ice Age game.
Underated: Doublefine, Starbreeze, Swordfish, Massive, High Moon, Terminal Reality, A2M

[SilentScreams]

Blizzard: Possibly the least innovative and original studio out there, their games outside of the original Diablo are the exact image of 'playing it safe'. Their games are great, but they are not unique, they are just iterations on previous games and ideas.

But I think this is exactly why people like Blizzard. They're not highly rated for being innovative. I don't think anybody would claim that they are.
What Blizzard do is take an existing formula, and simply do it better (IMO) than anyone else.