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Wraith
12-15-2008, 05:19 PM
I saw a link in my Google Reader list to a DailyTech (Anandtech) article, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo Prepare for the Dark Side, Scrap Net Neutrality (http://www.dailytech.com/Google+Microsoft+Yahoo+Prepare+for+the+Dark+Side+S crap+Net+Neutrality/article13684.htm) with the content description, "Google's latest antics bring its do-gooder status into question once again." But when I clicked, there's no article, which I'd guess means they had one up, but took it down.

A little searching leads to this: Google Wants Its Own Fast Track on the Web (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122929270127905065.html) (WSJ.com Technology section)

A few pieces from the article:
The celebrated openness of the Internet -- network providers are not supposed to give preferential treatment to any traffic -- is quietly losing powerful defenders.

Google Inc. has approached major cable and phone companies that carry Internet traffic with a proposal to create a fast lane for its own content, according to documents reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. Google has traditionally been one of the loudest advocates of equal network access for all content providers.One major cable operator in talks with Google says it has been reluctant so far to strike a deal because of concern it might violate Federal Communications Commission guidelines on network neutrality.

"If we did this, Washington would be on fire," says one executive at the cable company who is familiar with the talks, referring to the likely reaction of regulators and lawmakers.

Separately, Microsoft Corp. and Yahoo Inc. have withdrawn quietly from a coalition formed two years ago to protect network neutrality. Each company has forged partnerships with the phone and cable companies. In addition, prominent Internet scholars, some of whom have advised President-elect Barack Obama on technology issues, have softened their views on the subject.Google's proposed arrangement with network providers, internally called OpenEdge, would place Google servers directly within the network of the service providers, according to documents reviewed by the Journal. The setup would accelerate Google's service for users. Google has asked the providers it has approached not to talk about the idea, according to people familiar with the plans.

Asked about OpenEdge, Google said only that other companies such as Yahoo and Microsoft could strike similar deals if they desired. But Google's move, if successful, would give it an advantage available to very few.

...

Richard Whitt, Google's head of public affairs, denies the company's proposal would violate network neutrality.

And Google's Response (http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2008/12/net-neutrality-and-benefits-of-caching.html) (thanks Spectre):
Some critics have questioned whether improving Web performance through edge caching -- temporary storage of frequently accessed data on servers that are located close to end users -- violates the concept of network neutrality. As I said last summer, this myth -- which unfortunately underlies a confused story in Monday's Wall Street Journal -- is based on a misunderstanding of the way in which the open Internet works.

Edge caching is a common practice used by ISPs and application and content providers in order to improve the end user experience. Companies like Akamai, Limelight, and Amazon's Cloudfront provide local caching services, and broadband providers typically utilize caching as part of what are known as content distribution networks (CDNs). Google and many other Internet companies also deploy servers of their own around the world.

By bringing YouTube videos and other content physically closer to end users, site operators can improve page load times for videos and Web pages. In addition, these solutions help broadband providers by minimizing the need to send traffic outside of their networks and reducing congestion on the Internet's backbones. In fact, caching represents one type of innovative network practice encouraged by the open Internet.

Google has offered to "colocate" caching servers within broadband providers' own facilities; this reduces the provider's bandwidth costs since the same video wouldn't have to be transmitted multiple times. We've always said that broadband providers can engage in activities like colocation and caching, so long as they do so on a non-discriminatory basis.

All of Google's colocation agreements with ISPs -- which we've done through projects called OpenEdge and Google Global Cache -- are non-exclusive, meaning any other entity could employ similar arrangements. Also, none of them require (or encourage) that Google traffic be treated with higher priority than other traffic. In contrast, if broadband providers were to leverage their unilateral control over consumers' connections and offer colocation or caching services in an anti-competitive fashion, that would threaten the open Internet and the innovation it enables.

civil
12-15-2008, 05:24 PM
I've yet to read the whole article (which I will do), but reading your quoted text does present an interesting situation.

I've never understood the whole "Google is good" thing. They're a company, like anyone else, whose primary concern will always be their shareholders. Somehow they suckered millions with their "Do No Evil" bullshit.

Spectre-7
12-15-2008, 05:28 PM
Some critics have questioned whether improving Web performance through edge caching -- temporary storage of frequently accessed data on servers that are located close to end users -- violates the concept of network neutrality. As I said last summer, this myth -- which unfortunately underlies a confused story in Monday's Wall Street Journal -- is based on a misunderstanding of the way in which the open Internet works.

Richard Whitt's full response is available here. (http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2008/12/net-neutrality-and-benefits-of-caching.html)

Krispy
12-15-2008, 05:28 PM
I got this from a Net Neutrality news aggregation:

This morning, a Wall Street Journal article stirred up false rumors that Internet giant Google and President-elect Obama himself are backing off their support of Net Neutrality.

Fortunately, neither is true, and the article was widely discredited soon after the paper hit the streets. But in the perverse world of Washington politics, some believe that if Google abandons Net Neutrality, we will never see it passed into law.

It was a false spin on caching. If I am understanding it correctly, this is the same thing that Xbox Live does, but would be done with Google content as well.

Wraith
12-15-2008, 05:34 PM
Richard Whitt's full response is available here. (http://googlepublicpolicy.blogspot.com/2008/12/net-neutrality-and-benefits-of-caching.html)While the Edge Caching tech described there is maybe somewhat questionable, with regard to net neutrality, the WSJ piece really doesn't describe what Google is doing accurately. It's not "we pay you more, you give us priority on your tubes."

torrefaction
12-15-2008, 05:47 PM
There is nothing questionable about edge caching. That's just silly.

Wraith
12-15-2008, 05:52 PM
Well I don't really know much about it, beyond what I read in the Google Policy post.

A content provider pays an ISP money to host some servers/content locally with the ISP, which reduces bandwidth costs and improves that site's performance for users at that ISP. While the traffic isn't given any higher priority than that of other websites, it is pay for performance, in a sense, isn't it?

Gormanimal
12-15-2008, 06:56 PM
I think it's all a silly negative spin put on something that doesn't deserve it. Net Neutrality, as I understand it, is typically a concern about the limitation of data travelling the web. Google is simply proposing increasing the speed. Yeah, someone would complain that it's not fair because everyone doesn't benefit from it...but people complain about a lot of things.

Spectre-7
12-15-2008, 07:08 PM
I think it's all a silly negative spin put on something that doesn't deserve it. Net Neutrality, as I understand it, is typically a concern about the limitation of data travelling the web. Google is simply proposing increasing the speed. Yeah, someone would complain that it's not fair because everyone doesn't benefit from it...but people complain about a lot of things.

I believe this is correct. So far as I understand it, the issue about net neutrality is about ISPs artificially lowering performance on a pay-for-play basis. "We're sorry, Mr. Content Provider, but you didn't pay us so we'll be throttling your throughput on our part of the network. If you'd like your bits to flow at the speed they should, you can always cut us a check."

This type of move by Google doesn't adversely affect anyone else. They're essentially paying for localized mirrors, which should lower traffic over all, and theoretically improve everyone's performance (although theirs most of all, of course).

My take on the matter, of course.

Goronmon
12-15-2008, 07:21 PM
Either the WSJ had an agenda when they posted that article, or they were influenced by someone else who does. *cough*telcos*cough*

Wraith
12-15-2008, 07:49 PM
I believe this is correct. So far as I understand it, the issue about net neutrality is about ISPs artificially lowering performance on a pay-for-play basis. "We're sorry, Mr. Content Provider, but you didn't pay us so we'll be throttling your throughput on our part of the network. If you'd like your bits to flow at the speed they should, you can always cut us a check."

This type of move by Google doesn't adversely affect anyone else. They're essentially paying for localized mirrors, which should lower traffic over all, and theoretically improve everyone's performance (although theirs most of all, of course).

My take on the matter, of course.I guess I was thinking about how big companies can probably cut deals like this, but small companies likely can't afford to or don't have the influence to do so. Or ISPs simply wouldn't be able to work out similar deals with hundreds or thousands of different websites, and the privilege will probably only be available to a select few.

I suppose another way to look at it is that Google could simply build their own facilities in close proximity to ISPs and accomplish much the same thing. And nobody would have a legal or ethical argument against that.

Goronmon
12-15-2008, 08:24 PM
I suppose another way to look at it is that Google could simply build their own facilities in close proximity to ISPs and accomplish much the same thing. And nobody would have a legal or ethical argument against that.Essentially this is what they are doing. They just don't technically "own" the facilities and are just footing the bill.

It's hard to argue with this type of approach. I mean, it's not much different than Google being able to spend more on hardware for their servers or spending more for employees to improve the software end.