BitTorrent About To Split the Internet In Half?

[DoctorFinger]

Our partners over at Immortal Machines (http://www.immortalmachines.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=28&func=view&id=1487&catid=5) direct us to this article over at The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/01/richard_bennett_utorrent_udp/), which in turn sounds the alarm about a change in how the largest BitTorrent client operates, and what that change could mean for applications like VoIP and gaming. Gamers, VoIP and video conference users beware. The leading BitTorrent software authors have declared war on you - and any users wanting to wring high performance out of their networks. A key design change in the P2P application promises to make the headaches faced by ISPs so far look like a party game. So what's happened, and why does it matter?

Upset about Bell Canada’s system for allocating bandwidth fairly among internet users, the developers of the uTorrent P2P application have decided to make the UDP protocol the default transport protocol for file transfers. BitTorrent implementations have long used UDP to exchange tracker information – the addresses of the computers where files could be found – but the new release uses it in preference to TCP for the actual transfer of files. The implications of this change are enormous.
IN short, UDP is a small part of the greater internet backbone. It's designed for applications which don't send a lot of data, but need that data to arrive in (more or less) real-time. Which is exactly what gaming, VoIP, video conferencing and the like need. The bulk of internet traffic travels over TCP, which is good for bulk data that is, as they say, 'delay tolerant'. In essence, because the hardcore torrent crowd - most, but not all of which are also the hardcore pirate crowd - is worried about Comcast throttling their connections, and they're prepared to ruin the internet for everyone else to side step that fate. This would in essence end most online gaming, the log jam on UCP would raise latency so much it would be functionally unplayable.

Sources - The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/01/richard_bennett_utorrent_udp/); Immortal Machines (http://www.immortalmachines.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=28&func=view&id=1487&catid=5).

[biosc1]

What's that saying...

Discipline the dog...expect to be bitten

Or something like that...

[Spectre-7]

BitTorrent: Register report on protocol change is "utter nonsense" (http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/12/01/bittorrent-register-report-protocol-change-utter-nonsense)

Isn't that business as usual at the Register?

And here's a more in depth answer from Simon Morris at Bittorrent Inc. (http://forum.utorrent.com/viewtopic.php?pid=379206#p379206)

[Hotcod]

i use torrents... and i do some times pirate things. It's wrong i know but it happens but this is just really really really really really really really stupid... the IPs are not going to take something like this laying down and it's going to be the majority of us that is going to end up caught in the cross fire. Then again it shouldn't be suppressing that a hardcore community of geeks that is frankly based on stealing stuff isn't bothered by screwing almost every one else over beacuse there downloads will take longer.

edit: posted before i saw the second link... but from the sound of it it's a move that makes life better for them and likely worse for others

[Disgustipated]

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/tobstv/fyouinternet.jpg
http://eightchainedourangoutangs.com/tubes/internettubes.jpg

THE TUBES ARE CLOGGED

[Mike Kelehan]

I don't think I buy this logic. Because of the nature of the internet, UDP is a small percentage because few people are using it. If more people use it via Bittorrent, then more people are using it, and it becomes a higher percentage. It's not like there's a finite amount of UDP juice to go around. It's a protocol.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[jpublic]

UDP File transfer systems are nothing new. Anyone remember TFTP? Heck, there's several private-network file transfer systems that use UDP to basically flood their pipe to 100% capacity.

I also know for a fact that most routing/throttling applications/HW have functions to deal with too much UDP.

AKA this is just FUD.

[Spectre-7]

Here's another interview with Simon Morris (http://www.networkperformancedaily.com/2008/12/bittorrent_over_udp_end_of_the.html) that helps clarify precisely what they're planning with UDP/uTP.

[Bone]

UDP File transfer systems are nothing new. Anyone remember TFTP? Remember TFTP? I use it every day!

I was hoping someone with more knowledge than myself would swoop in and debunk this, and it happened before I even finished reading the OP.

The Internet is dead. Long live the Internet!

[TrackZero]

Awesome, this is what Bell Canada fucking deserves. I'd been trying to raise awareness and get people to take action before this got brought back up the other week. When things got changed into Bells favour though I thought all was lost. Thank you uTorrent!

I'm tired of seeing my torrents run at 10kB/s during the day and then during the magical window from 2am-8am go to 550kB/s, whenever Bell deems me worthy.

[crazyD]

This is a bullshit article that has been debunked. Removal from the front page would be nice.

[TrackZero]

i use torrents... and i do some times pirate things. It's wrong i know but it happens but this is just really really really really really really really stupid... the IPs are not going to take something like this laying down and it's going to be the majority of us that is going to end up caught in the cross fire. Then again it shouldn't be suppressing that a hardcore community of geeks that is frankly based on stealing stuff isn't bothered by screwing almost every one else over beacuse there downloads will take longer.

edit: posted before i saw the second link... but from the sound of it it's a move that makes life better for them and likely worse for others

This doesn't screw anyone else over. Most internet traffic is taken up by youtube and other streaming video sources, not from torrents (I forget the stat, but it's very, very low).

This is content providers (like Bell Canada), who don't like piracy because it cuts into their profit margins (just like MPAA/RIAA). Which of course is why megacorps shouldn't be allowed to dip into so many markets in the first place.

[TrackZero]

This is a bullshit article that has been debunked. Removal from the front page would be nice.

Debunked how? Explain or give some sources.

[crazyD]

Debunked how? Explain or give some sources.

Well, this (http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/12/01/bittorrent-register-report-protocol-change-utter-nonsense) was posted earlier, and this (http://torrentfreak.com/will-utorrent-really-kill-the-internet-081201/) explains as well.

[TrackZero]

Well, this (http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/12/01/bittorrent-register-report-protocol-change-utter-nonsense) was posted earlier, and this (http://torrentfreak.com/will-utorrent-really-kill-the-internet-081201/) explains as well.

That's better info crazy, thanks. I don't know if the article is wrong in it's base, that uTorrent is changing protocols. But the question of whether this would cause any problems for other services utilizing UDP looks quite fishy.

[DiBiddilyBop]

Agreed. This thread should be taken off the front page and closed... filed under FUD.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As far as I understand it, UDP is just TCP that doesn't do any handshaking. The only way this would cause a problem would be in they started throttling the protocol due to the fact that bittorrent used it.

edit: If I'm understanding it and remembering my Networking.

[Roaddawg]

IN short, UDP is a small part of the greater internet backbone. It's designed for applications which don't send a lot of data, but need that data to arrive in (more or less) real-time. Which is exactly what gaming, VoIP, video conferencing and the like need. The bulk of internet traffic travels over TCP, which is good for bulk data that is, as they say, 'delay tolerant'. In essence, because the hardcore torrent crowd - most, but not all of which are also the hardcore pirate crowd - is worried about Comcast throttling their connections, and they're prepared to ruin the internet for everyone else to side step that fate. This would in essence end most online gaming, the log jam on UCP would raise latency so much it would be functionally unplayable.

Sources - The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/01/richard_bennett_utorrent_udp/); Immortal Machines (http://www.immortalmachines.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=28&func=view&id=1487&catid=5).

when i think of the headache this could cause..this clip came to mind..

V13CZnUCOaQ

[bean]

You don't speed up traffic by insisting people stay home from work. You build a bigger highway.

I don't really benefit from torrents. I even download the WoW patches from game sites because that is a lot faster than waiting on the torrent. Still, I think we are going to be sending larger and larger files at faster and faster speeds as the years go on, so efforts should be focused on enlarging access rather than limiting it.

[J Arcane]

Assuming this is true, well, fuck 'em. There's no fucking excuse for the shit that telecoms and cable companies have start pulling with all this bandwidth caps and throttling bullshit.

If I'm paying for a certain fucking connection speed, I expect to get that fucking connection speed, within reason. Deliberately refusing to give me what I'm paying for is flat out theft. It's taking my fucking money, and not giving me what I paid for. It's no different than if I walk into the store and ask for and pay for 4 fruit pies, and the baker only gives me 2 and says he refuses to give me the other two because he's too busy.

Fuck these assholes. And pinning it all on piracy is a bullshit rhetorical ploy and nothing more. THe truth of the matter is that the shit these companies have been pulling affects far more than just torrents, this is just one application's way around the telecoms attempts to circumvent net neutrality.

[Spectre-7]

As far as I understand it, UDP is just TCP that doesn't do any handshaking. The only way this would cause a problem would be in they started throttling the protocol due to the fact that bittorrent used it.

edit: If I'm understanding it and remembering my Networking.

I believe there are a few more differences. For brevity's sake, I'll quote six people at the bus stop.... errrr, I mean the Wikipedia:

Due to network congestion, traffic load balancing, or other unpredictable network behavior, IP packets can be lost or delivered out of order. TCP detects these problems, requests retransmission of lost packets, rearranges out-of-order packets, and even helps minimize network congestion to reduce the occurrence of the other problems. Once the TCP receiver has finally reassembled a perfect copy of the data originally transmitted, it passes that datagram to the application program. Thus, TCP abstracts the application's communication from the underlying networking details.

By contrast, UDP (AFAIK) allows you to just blindly fire off packets with an address attached. If they get there, great. If not, oh well. This is a boon to Bittorrent, which by design doesn't require packets to be delivered in order. In the event of packet loss, the client can re-request data from any of the available seeds, rather than relying on the protocol's error checking to deliver a perfect copy.

Essentially, they're abandoning TCP because of redundancy. The protocol is doing work that the BT client either does itself or doesn't need, and the change to UDP should result in less traffic and server overhead.

That's my take on it at least. I'm certainly not a network engineer, so take my opinion with a grain of salt and all that jazz.

[Disgustipated]

Assuming this is true, well, fuck 'em. There's no fucking excuse for the shit that telecoms and cable companies have start pulling with all this bandwidth caps and throttling bullshit.

If I'm paying for a certain fucking connection speed, I expect to get that fucking connection speed, within reason. Deliberately refusing to give me what I'm paying for is flat out theft. It's taking my fucking money, and not giving me what I paid for. It's no different than if I walk into the store and ask for and pay for 4 fruit pies, and the baker only gives me 2 and says he refuses to give me the other two because he's too busy.

Fuck these assholes. And pinning it all on piracy is a bullshit rhetorical ploy and nothing more. THe truth of the matter is that the shit these companies have been pulling affects far more than just torrents, this is just one application's way around the telecoms attempts to circumvent net neutrality.

Good job. You ranted about shit you don't fully understand and made an ass of yourself. Par for the course.

[DoctorFinger]

I;ve seen enough info to doubt the source, so I've moved this off the front page.

[bean]

Good job. You ranted about shit you don't fully understand and made an ass of yourself. Par for the course.
This is a good example of trolling and I'm going to report it. Instead of insulting people, why don't you propel the discussion by telling us how J Arcane is wrong. I only have a low level of knowledge about this subject, but J Arcane comes off as a person with supported opinions and you just come off as offensive.

[J Arcane]

This is a good example of trolling and I'm going to report it. Instead of insulting people, why don't you propel the discussion by telling us how J Arcane is wrong. I only have a low level of knowledge about this subject, but J Arcane comes off as a person with supported opinions and you just come off as offensive.
bean, meet Disgustipated. Clearly you two aren't familiar with each other.

Just ignore him. Apparently he's decided to commence a return to the same behavior he was so fond of on Evil Avatar, so at this point he's even more useless than usual, and if you prod him further, he'll just start trolling your every post as well.

-J

[Hexxagonal]

I bet this reporter got his information from the telephone and cable companies of the world.

[Bone]

I'm torn. I want to trust the description given by the BitTorrent guy, but this reporter isn't just your garden variety hack. He is actually pretty old-school when it comes to knowledge of networking... here's his site (http://www.bennett.com/) where he describes his contributions to the invention of twisted-pair Ethernet, 1Base5 and other standards.

If it were just some average reporter who didn't know shit about networking, I'd blow it off a bit easier. Now I'm thinking the truth lies somewhere between his alarmism and BitTorrent's soothing platitudes.

[Disgustipated]

This is a good example of trolling and I'm going to report it. Instead of insulting people, why don't you propel the discussion by telling us how J Arcane is wrong. I only have a low level of knowledge about this subject, but J Arcane comes off as a person with supported opinions and you just come off as offensive.

Go fuck yourself and troll the site admins some more with your personal, petty vendetta, just because you don't support their views on how to run their own site. I fully expect you to respond to this with a pretentious wall of text, assuming that anyone REALLY gives a fuck about your "research paper" replies.

You should be reported every time you post for being an introverted douchebag.

[Disgustipated]

bean, meet Disgustipated. Clearly you two aren't familiar with each other.

Just ignore him. Apparently he's decided to commence a return to the same behavior he was so fond of on Evil Avatar, so at this point he's even more useless than usual, and if you prod him further, he'll just start trolling your every post as well.

-J

Being called useless by a guy whose highest aspiration is to work as T-Mobile customer support is laughable.

[Bone]

Go fuck yourself and troll the site admins some more with your personal, petty vendetta, just because you don't support their views on how to run their own site. I fully expect you to respond to this with a pretentious wall of text, assuming that anyone REALLY gives a fuck about your "research paper" replies.

You should be reported every time you post for being an introverted douchebag.Dude, as much as J Arcane has pissed me off on occasion, what just happened is you just showed up and brought your own vendetta to the thread and trolled him. Lead by example, or some such. Anyway, I like you man but I think you are in the wrong here.

[crazyD]

Man, the sexual tension is so thick, I could cut it with a knife.

Seriously guys, it's the Internet. No need to hold grudges.

[Bone]

Back on topic, here's some more of Richard Bennett's (the reporter for the Register) credentials for those who didn't follow my link:

I confess, I'm a net geek. I co-invented the twisted-pair wiring system for Ethernet (and the protocol that makes it work, 1BASE5), an early version of the WiFi MAC protocol, and the distributed reservation system for the new UWB wireless Personal Area Network that will be in your living room in the next few years. I worked with others in these three inventions: a small committee working under the umbrella of the IEEE 802.3 standards group for Ethernet, co-workers at Photonics and our customer IBM for my WiFi protocol, and an organization called MBOA for the UWB MAC. In smaller ways, I've also contributed to standards for QoS over WiFi (802.11e) and the new high-throughput WiFi, 802.11n, as well as various IETF and ISO standards.

I'm not a professional standards guy, however. I make contributions to these committees (and sometimes lead them) and then implement products to the standards that my colleagues and I invent. Hence I worked for 3Com for ten years producing Ethernet products, for Airgo, Trapeze, and Sharp Labs doing WiFi products, and probably will work for a UWB company as that technology reaches maturity.

I've had the good fortune of working for some of the best-managed companies in the computer industry, such as the part of Texas Instruments run by Compaq founder Rod Canion and for Tandem Computers during the Jimmy Treybig era. I've also worked for some of the worst-managed companies, but that list is too long for this web site.

Hardly a tool of the media, in my opinion. He may be an alarmist but his background in the subject seems pretty damn solid to me.

[Disgustipated]

Dude, as much as J Arcane has pissed me off on occasion, what just happened is you just showed up and brought your own vendetta to the thread and trolled him. Lead by example, or some such. Anyway, I like you man but I think you are in the wrong here.

That's a fair statement. But I'm not taking back anything I said against bean, if only because that guy is and has been a whiny bitch for years now.

[Bone]

That's a fair statement. But I'm not taking back anything I said against bean, if only because that guy is and has been a whiny bitch for years now.
Man, again, all I see is your discontent. Bean reported you for a pretty solid reason, and that was you trolling J Arcane.

I hate taking sides, especially when I've had a lot of fun playing CoD4 with you, but I think you should take a step back from the keyboard on this one, take a bong hit or whatever, and remember the serious business that is our Internet.

[Hellbug]

Someone put a muzzle on Dis before he gets himself banned, please.

[Disgustipated]

Man, again, all I see is your discontent. Bean reported you for a pretty solid reason, and that was you trolling J Arcane.

I hate taking sides, especially when I've had a lot of fun playing CoD4 with you, but I think you should take a step back from the keyboard on this one, take a bong hit or whatever, and remember the serious business that is our Internet.

I will take your advice, if only because you are old, wise, and kind.

[Bone]

I will take your advice, if only because you are old, wise, and kind.
Thanks man. Don't forget "old" again. And I can argue the "wise" part, I've gotten in plenty of Internet pissing matches. It's just easier to see the futility in the situation when you're not the one in the stream. Of the Internet piss, that is.

[Goronmon]

I will take your advice, if only because you are old...Quoted for truth.

[Bone]

Fine. I'll put on my Depends if you kids get the hell off my lawn and play some music that doesn't sound like cats fucking.

[Heretic Machine]

Upset about Bell Canada’s system for allocating bandwidth fairly among internet users

Translation: Bittorrent users are pissed that so many ISPs are throttling bittorrent, regardless of what the bandwidth usage is like at the time.

[TrackZero]

I'm torn. I want to trust the description given by the BitTorrent guy, but this reporter isn't just your garden variety hack. He is actually pretty old-school when it comes to knowledge of networking... here's his site (http://www.bennett.com/) where he describes his contributions to the invention of twisted-pair Ethernet, 1Base5 and other standards.


Well, nothing he's worked on really is at the higher layers of the OSI model, so this discussion is outside of the scope of what he mentions there. Technically speaking. ;)

[TrackZero]

Translation: Bittorrent users are pissed that so many ISPs are throttling bittorrent, regardless of what the bandwidth usage is like at the time.

Translation: Having worked at Canadian Telcos, I'm more than aware at the layers and layers of horse shit, scamming and backdoor dealing that Bell Canada does. They have more than enough capacity and are simply trying to get rid of bit torrent, again, as I mentioned because they are a content provider via their satellite services. They view it as competition, and be damned whatever else is using that protocol. And they just received carte blanche from the government to fuck over 3rd party ISPs who have no choice but to route traffic through their network, violating their own contracts in the process. So not only can they fuck over the customer by not giving them what they pay for, now they can fuck over their immediate competition as well. No one can stop them anymore. Welcome to flavour country.

[AniAko]

I swore I read www.colonyofgamers.com in this URL not www.foxnews.com

Fear mongering about the Internet is laughable at best. The internet WILL NOT come to a crawl, online gaming will continue, etc. The only news worthy part is that their embracing the UDP model of data transfer over TCP. I know what that means, and it's perfectly reasonable.

If you buy this crap, I'll sell you another one. How about sprint cutting off cogent? Doom and gloom right? Not so much.

[Alkanos]

First off, I want to say I am not a networking person, and don't really like it. :p But suppose torrents did switch protocols and ISPs started to throttle UDP (dunno if that's possible though). Wouldn't that lead to the slowdown of VOIP and Gaming mentioned in the article? It still wouldn't make it bittorrent's fault though, that blame would be on the ISPs for throttling it.

But like I said, I don't know enough about networking to know if that would happen, or if it was even possible. But it's the first thought that came to my head.

[TheFlyingOrc]

If I'm paying for a certain fucking connection speed, I expect to get that fucking connection speed, within reason. Deliberately refusing to give me what I'm paying for is flat out theft. It's taking my fucking money, and not giving me what I paid for. It's no different than if I walk into the store and ask for and pay for 4 fruit pies, and the baker only gives me 2 and says he refuses to give me the other two because he's too busy.

I promise that you are getting exactly what is in your contract. You might not understand the minutia of the contract, but they're not giving you anything but what you're paying for.

[Jackel]

I swore I read www.colonyofgamers.com in this URL not www.foxnews.com

Fear mongering about the Internet is laughable at best. The internet WILL NOT come to a crawl, online gaming will continue, etc. The only news worthy part is that their embracing the UDP model of data transfer over TCP. I know what that means, and it's perfectly reasonable.

If you buy this crap, I'll sell you another one. How about sprint cutting off cogent? Doom and gloom right? Not so much.

Lies. Bittorrent is the devil. It will mate with the internet and then eat its offspring. Anyone who supports Bittorrent is a supporter of killing the internet.

On a more serious note, I bet that even if ISP's began to throttle UDP, You'd still be able to VOIP, online game, etc. You might see a slight increase in ping, but nothing "end of the internet" worthy.

Unless of course you were trying to run Bittorrent at the same time....

[Voodoo]

Well, this (http://www.thestandard.com/news/2008/12/01/bittorrent-register-report-protocol-change-utter-nonsense) was posted earlier, and this (http://torrentfreak.com/will-utorrent-really-kill-the-internet-081201/) explains as well.

Thank you. I've removed the story from the front of Immortal Machines as well.

[crazyD]

Glad to be of assistance! To quote my sources, I saw both the original article and the rebuttal on Reddit.

[Voodoo]

Glad to be of assistance! To quote my sources, I saw both the original article and the rebuttal on Reddit.

Do me a grand favor though, next time you see one of these on Immortal Machines and know its been debunked could you please send me a PM? I'm often going through so much daily PC Gaming news that sometimes the crap gets into the wash. ;)

[J Arcane]

I promise that you are getting exactly what is in your contract. You might not understand the minutia of the contract, but they're not giving you anything but what you're paying for.
When I still had BendBroadband, I never signed a bloody "contract". I signed the work order for the guy who came out to my house. If they consider signing one document to be certified proof of consent for an entirely different document, I'd like to have a word with their lawyer. Maybe it's easier to get into the legal profession than I thought.

[TheFlyingOrc]

When I still had BendBroadband, I never signed a bloody "contract". I signed the work order for the guy who came out to my house. If they consider signing one document to be certified proof of consent for an entirely different document, I'd like to have a word with their lawyer. Maybe it's easier to get into the legal profession than I thought.

You purchased a service, I promise there's some sort of contractual obligation there. Contracts don't always imply signatures.

[crazyD]

Do me a grand favor though, next time you see one of these on Immortal Machines and know its been debunked could you please send me a PM? I'm often going through so much daily PC Gaming news that sometimes the crap gets into the wash. ;)

You know, I saw it in the RSS feed I have going for IM, and meant to alert you, but just forgot. If I see any issues in the future, I will be sure to let you know.

[Voodoo]

You know, I saw it in the RSS feed I have going for IM, and meant to alert you, but just forgot. If I see any issues in the future, I will be sure to let you know.

It's all good. :) I was doing my afternoon sweep and caught it here.

[KingGorilla]

When I still had BendBroadband, I never signed a bloody "contract". I signed the work order for the guy who came out to my house. If they consider signing one document to be certified proof of consent for an entirely different document, I'd like to have a word with their lawyer. Maybe it's easier to get into the legal profession than I thought.

Laymen can be so cute.

Generally speaking any contractual terms are covered not in the work order but to the Terms of Service, or Terms of Use that come with your cable, DSL, fiber in the box with the modem, the disc, etc. My favroite are still the stickers that say "by breaking this seal you have agreed to the terms enclosed here in(pro tip, open the package somewhere else).

The provisions are not in any way to screw you, but to protect the parent corporation from legal action. Should you conduct criminal activity over their network, or engage in fraud, or copyright violation, etc.

There are few parts actually pertaining to your actual service. Generally speaking they involve what constitutes an outage of service, your recompense. There are also tidbits on exactly what you paid for. Most companies sell you "up to XXX MBps" without any mention of actual or minimum performance. That is how Comcast or AT&T can get away with throttling their customers.

[Spectre-7]

That is how Comcast or AT&T can get away with throttling their customers.

That conjures a really great image. ;)