Tell me about some DS games.

[J Arcane]

I am seriously considering finally caving and purchasing a DS, as I have again found myself at a point where having a handheld is once again useful, and well, the things are just plain cheaper, and I'm on a tight budget, partly because I have to save up for the very same thing that will lead me to needing a new handheld: travel.

However, the library is much like the Wii, littered with a lot of casual crap that I have zero interest in. If I can't find enough DS games to justify it, I may as well save even more money and just get another SP like I used to have. This would actually be good for me in part because it still supports GBC/GB games, and I have a few favorites for those old systems I'd love to play again.

So basically, I want to know if some of the games I'm looking at getting for one are worth it, and worth the potential loss of old school GB compatibility. I am interested in hearing honest opinions about the games listed, so please don't sugarcoat this shit just to try and sell me a DS, I know there's a lot of DS fanboys on this site, and I'm not interested in the sales pitch. As far as I'm concerned the thing itself is inferior in every way but the price to the PSP, but if there's enough games that'll satiate, I'm willing to get one anyway.

So some games I'm thinking about:

DQM: Joker - I'm a big Dragon Quest fan. I've also been playing Dragon Warrior Monsters 2 on the GBC lately. I enjoy DWM2, though in some ways I'm disappointed with the monster hunting aspect as compared to the original Pokemon, because it seems like you get a lot of special boss monsters as part of the story that just totally overshadow anything you can capture. What's the new one like?

Advance Wars - AW2 is one of my absolute all time favorite strategy games. I mastered that game so utterly that it reached the point I couldn't play anymore because the only way the AI could challenge me was by cheating or loading the scenario in it's favor, and none of my real friends would play me in MP. How is Dual Strike? Does the second screen actually create interesting strategy, or is it just a lame gimmick? Is the AI improved over the previous game? Also, is the gameplay of Days of Ruin as bad as the raging emoness of the graphical and story changes?

Civ:Rev - I had zero interest in the console versions of these because they were little more than stripped down Civ4, and I already have it and every expansion for the PC. But Civ for a handheld is potentially a whole different ball of wax in some ways, especially a Civ4 based one, as the only previous one was a CivII port for the NGage. but is it as oversimplified as the console versions looked? Is the gameplay of Civ4 relatively in tact, or has it been dumbed down for a casual audience?

Metroid: Hunters - I had a lot of fun with the demo of this, and it's the only 3d game I've seen for the DS that doesn't look like total ass. but how good is the full game really? I've heard it's rather MP focused, which doesn't do anything for me.

Roguelikes - These are always an appealing category to me, and the DS seems to be home to a remarkably large number of Japanese style roguelikes. Shiren the Wanderer is already an immediate purchase to me, but there's also that Izuna game that I know nothing about, and I think there's a newer Pokemon Mystery Dungeon game too. The previous PMD game for GBA was tardbaby shallow like you wouldn't believe, but maybe they've expanded it a bit more? Most of the Japanese roguelikes tend to be pretty simplistic, which is one of the reasons I like Shiren the Wnaderer so much because it's deeper. I'm not talking ultracomplicated stuff like NetHack or anything, I'm just talking about msot of them not even holding a candle to the original Rogue.

Also, are there any other good Western-style RPGs or strategy game for the platform? I know there's some ports of a few PC names like Age of Empires and Anno1701, what are those like?

EDIT: Also, random thought, do any of those subscription game rental services deal with DS games? That would make getting new games less of a risk and ease my mind somewhat.

[nnanji]

I really enjoy DQM: Jokers. The monster collecting and breeding was very fulfilling. Creating a party of 3 monsters that covered each others types and weaknesses was a fun balancing act, and training up their skills as they leveled up to unlock more powerful skills was rewarding, much better than just "learned Flamethrower." There is a story based monster character that is very powerful and can dominate your party, but you will find it rewarding to pull him out of the group and level up some other creatures.

Some of your criticisms are still valid though. Specifically, most of the monsters you capture are weak, and there are a few very rare "mid-boss" types that are very strong. With the right breeding though, even D-class monsters can rock. Travel around the islands could also get a little tedious, especially when there isn't a direct route from one island to another and you have to cross over two or more islands to geet where you want to be.

Now I want to play it again.

edit: Just want to say that I never played the GBC version, so I don't know how similar they are mechanically.

[Variable Gear]

Avoid Metroid Prime Hunters. The single-player mode is spooktacular and the multiplayer was filled with cheaters.

Advance Wars: Days of Ruin is great. I'd recommend Days of Ruin more than Dual Strike, even though the former lacks a great deal of fringe content. I'd be happy to play some online matches with you if you end up picking up a copy.

Siren the Wanderer is a great Roguelike, but like all Roguelikes, only masochists need apply.

Civ Rev on the DS is supposed to be very fun. I've never played it, but I hear it has games of the week just like the 360 version. And, just so you're aware, the DS version of Civ Rev is a port of the console mechanics to a handheld. It isn't a game trying to create a feel similar to Civ 4. If you go in thinking that, you'll be unnecessarily disappointed.

[Ravenlock]

Civ: Rev is a pretty great handheld version of Civ, as long as you don't go into it expecting Civ IV, because it isn't that. They've taken some things from Civ IV (cultural borders being the most obvious), but other things have been streamlined to feel more like an older entry in the series. And some things - like micromanaging workers - are just gone entirely. I wouldn't call it "dumbed down", though, there's still plenty of Civ in there. As a pocketable Civ experience, I think it's great, though. Multiplayer, unfortunately, does not work so well (primarily because you can't save a multi game, one of the worst design decisions ever), so if that's what you want out of your Civ game I'd say pass.

Age of Empires DS is really good, but feels nothing like Age of Empires on the PC. Or rather, it feels like an Age of Empires-themed Civ lite. You build buildings and units, research upgrades, etc, but everything is turn-based and combat is handled in Advance Wars-like panel battles. I haven't tried the new Age of Mythology one yet, but I assume it's similar.

Shiren the Wanderer is one of the best console roguelikes I've ever tried, so feel good about getting that one. Izuna 1 and 2 are respectable roguelikes, or at least the first one is. I never played 2, but everything I read leads me to believe it's just more of what was in #1. PMD I can't speak on at all.

If you're a Dragon Quest fan and want to play through it again, the Dragon Quest IV remake that just hit DS is very good. And Dragon Quest Heroes: Rocket Slime is a great action-adventure game. As far as Western RPG's go, I don't really know of any, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Contact is maybe the quirkiest RPG on it, but Western isn't the right term to describe it. Orcs and Elves is on it, I guess. :p For other strategy games, Final Fantasy Tactics Advance 2 is good, Disgaea is supposed to be good, and a new Fire Emblem game is coming. All of those are more in the strategy RPG camp than Advance Wars, but grid-based combat is grid-based combat to some extent.

There's plenty of other games I could suggest, I love the system, but since you don't want to be "sold" I'll wait to be asked. ;) Yes, Gamefly does rent DS games.

[J Arcane]

Age of Empires DS is really good, but feels nothing like Age of Empires on the PC. Or rather, it feels like an Age of Empires-themed Civ lite. You build buildings and units, research upgrades, etc, but everything is turn-based and combat is handled in Advance Wars-like panel battles. I haven't tried the new Age of Mythology one yet, but I assume it's similar..

ACtually, it's that "Civ-lite" angle that had me appealed. NEver cared for the RTS games on PC, but what I'd seen of the DS version intrigued me. I think I tried it in an emulator once, but I never could get past the menu screens because it was so damn dog slow. DS emulation really isn't there yet, unlike the GBA.

There's another one I remembered, in the strategy vein, didn't they do a Prince of Persia Tactics game or somesuch like that? I know they did one, but I can't recall what system it was on.

And how is Opera DS anyway? I'd imagine with the screens being what they are it's little better than a cell phone browser, but I'd heard it was especially slow.

And is there much in the way of an homebrew emulator scene? I never bodded the PSP because the concept of firmware hacking scares the crap out of me, but this R4 business could be pretty cool if there's support for some good systems, since it sounds pretty plug and play. The DS actually has the controls to handle a full SNES controller, which is pretty much what you want there.

[Ravenlock]

There's another one I remembered, in the strategy vein, didn't they do a Prince of Persia Tactics game or somesuch like that? I know they did one, but I can't recall what system it was on.

Yup, "Battles of Prince of Persia" was the name of it. I had it for awhile, ended up selling it. It wasn't bad, but it also wasn't tremendously good IMO. Grid-based TBS with some interesting rules for movement and combat, and "cards" you could earn between missions from which you had to draw the orders you could give your units, if I remember correctly. Worth a Gamefly rental to check out, probably, to see if you like it.

And how is Opera DS anyway? I'd imagine with the screens being what they are it's little better than a cell phone browser, but I'd heard it was especially slow.

It is both better than a cell phone browser and especially slow. Tolerable if you switch it to the "mobile-esque" interface where it doesn't try to do a full graphical layout, really slow (though very nice looking) if you do full graphics. Also, obviously, can't handle plugins and whatnot. Strictly for basic browsing and email checking.

And is there much in the way of an homebrew emulator scene? I never bodded the PSP because the concept of firmware hacking scares the crap out of me, but this R4 business could be pretty cool if there's support for some good systems, since it sounds pretty plug and play. The DS actually has the controls to handle a full SNES controller, which is pretty much what you want there.

The homebrew scene is pretty active in every respect, with some really solid homebrew games (including several roguelikes like Nethack and Dungeon Crawl), and some great homebrew apps like ColorsDS (a surprisingly sophisticated paint program that people use to make stuff like this (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/)). Emulation is a little less active, since the DS is less powerful than the PSP. There are very solid NES, Gameboy / Gameboy Color, and Genesis emulators, I'm pretty sure, and there are also a couple of SNES emulators that I think work decently well, though probably none at full speed yet. SNES is a tricky thing to do just right, it turns out.

Getting into DS homebrew is exceptionally easy, though I'd recommend a Cyclo DS over an R4 as the firmware updates are much more frequent (R4 may in fact be defunct). Be aware that as of now, no homebrew carts at all will run on the DSi, so if you're thinking of holding out for that version of the hardware, homebrew may not be an option.

[J Arcane]

GBC emulation is good to hear specifically as it nullifies one of the concerns I had about back compatibility.

Which is also why I don't care about the DSi at all, because I want that GBA port far more than I want a cell phone camera and some lame downloadable games. THe Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green remakes and Advance Wars 2 were probably going to be some of my first purchases.

Speaking of which, I'm guessing the Pokemon wireless dongle doesn't work with the DS, but is there at least link cable compatibility?

[Ravenlock]

GBC emulation is good to hear specifically as it nullifies one of the concerns I had about back compatibility.

I haven't used GBC emulation much, but evidence of its existence and supposedly good quality is easy to find (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzOzA1li3Wk). :)

Speaking of which, I'm guessing the Pokemon wireless dongle doesn't work with the DS, but is there at least link cable compatibility?

Tragically, no, and here we come to my one true regret about the DS: it effectively killed Zelda: Four Swords for the Gamecube. That game fucking rules, but it requires four GBA's and four link cables to play it right. If the link cables were DS-compatible, it'd be fine because everybody has DS's now and I could play some Four Swords with my pals. But no, it came out right when the DS did, and everybody bought DS's and got rid of their GBA's, and you can't use the link cable, and so Four Swords is useless.

One of my greatest wishes for the Wii is a Four Swords re-release with wireless connectivity for 4 DS systems.

[J Arcane]

Hmm. That could be a bit of a pain, as a friend of mine and I were actually talking about getting back into the old Pokemon, but without link cable support it kinda kills things a bit.

I know there's Pokemon for the DS I think, but frankly, I found the later Pokemon games rather dismal. The key part of a game like that is the critters you collect, and while the originals were quite clever, the ones in the latter games were spectacularly lame.

I'll probably still get Fire Red anyway, it's bound to be cheap by now, but it's sort of a bummer I won't get to do any of the multiplayer stuff with it. :(

[Purple Santa]

I know Gamefly rents DS games. I can't speak for the other rental subs. online, but I can't imagine they don't.

[nnanji]

Hmm. That could be a bit of a pain, as a friend of mine and I were actually talking about getting back into the old Pokemon, but without link cable support it kinda kills things a bit.

I know there's Pokemon for the DS I think, but frankly, I found the later Pokemon games rather dismal. The key part of a game like that is the critters you collect, and while the originals were quite clever, the ones in the latter games were spectacularly lame.

I'll probably still get Fire Red anyway, it's bound to be cheap by now, but it's sort of a bummer I won't get to do any of the multiplayer stuff with it. :(

I do believe that the newer Pokemon games let you import the critters from your older games (at least the GBA versions), so that you can indeed "collect them all." If your friend also upgraded to a DS, you could then battle wirelessly from anywhere, not just at the end of two feet of cable.

[Variable Gear]

Hmm. That could be a bit of a pain, as a friend of mine and I were actually talking about getting back into the old Pokemon, but without link cable support it kinda kills things a bit.

I know there's Pokemon for the DS I think, but frankly, I found the later Pokemon games rather dismal. The key part of a game like that is the critters you collect, and while the originals were quite clever, the ones in the latter games were spectacularly lame.

I'll probably still get Fire Red anyway, it's bound to be cheap by now, but it's sort of a bummer I won't get to do any of the multiplayer stuff with it. :(
The rares in Diamond and Pearl are rather uninteresting, but I'd argue that the commons and uncommons are designed well. Game Freak also went back and added in the functionality that was previously exclusive to Gold, Silver, and Crystal such as an in-game clock and events tied to specific days of the week. The Poketch (Poke Watch) is a failed experiment, and the HM system is showing its age (you better make an HM slave), but the gym leaders are still pretty entertaining and the music has always been great.

I understand not liking Ruby and Sapphire, as I also skipped that generation, but don't let that impact how you feel about generation four. If you want to play multiplayer Pokemon battles Diamond and Pearl are the way to go. If you want to trade Diamond and Pearl are the way to go. If you really want to get Fire Red (and, like nnanji said, you can import your creatures from it to D/P, but only after you beat the Elite Four and the Champion), then I'd recommend doing that. I'd also recommend getting Platinum after you're done with Fire Red.

Again, I'd be available to battle/trade.

[J Arcane]

I has three more questions about DS stuff, as the time approaches for my purchase:

1) Advance Wars 2's greatest bloody feature was it's level editor. Do the new ones still have them? Do they give you more space than the AW2? Is there any 3rd party software for trading and storing maps and such? Also, do either of them have any online features at all, multiplayer especially?

2) FPS Games. It's been suggested that Metroid Hunters is rather underwhelming, which is unfortunate because the control scheme was actually quite brilliant, the first time since the N64 I felt as natural playing FPS on a console as a PC. Are there any others out there that are remotely worth wasting my time with? Most of the rest I've seen looked like crap licensed shit, and then there's the "3d tends to look like crap in DS games" thing . . .

3) Which hombebrew/emulator/flashcart thingy? From my research, it seems like the three main options are the R4, Supercard, and Cyclo. Who has used what, and can they share any relative information as to which one to go with? Which one is supported by the most homebrew software, which one has the best firmware, which is most reliable, and advice on how to find one from a dealer that doesn't seem likely to scam me, that sort of thing.

[Ravenlock]

I has three more questions about DS stuff, as the time approaches for my purchase:

1) Advance Wars 2's greatest bloody feature was it's level editor. Do the new ones still have them? Do they give you more space than the AW2? Is there any 3rd party software for trading and storing maps and such? Also, do either of them have any online features at all, multiplayer especially?

2) FPS Games. It's been suggested that Metroid Hunters is rather underwhelming, which is unfortunate because the control scheme was actually quite brilliant, the first time since the N64 I felt as natural playing FPS on a console as a PC. Are there any others out there that are remotely worth wasting my time with? Most of the rest I've seen looked like crap licensed shit, and then there's the "3d tends to look like crap in DS games" thing . . .

3) Which hombebrew/emulator/flashcart thingy? From my research, it seems like the three main options are the R4, Supercard, and Cyclo. Who has used what, and can they share any relative information as to which one to go with? Which one is supported by the most homebrew software, which one has the best firmware, which is most reliable, and advice on how to find one from a dealer that doesn't seem likely to scam me, that sort of thing.

I cannot help you with question #1. However...

(2) I rather enjoyed Metroid Prime: Hunters, but it is true that the single-player campaign is underwhelming, and the multiplayer online quickly devolved into a hell of cheating and game-dropping. If you have any friends willing to play it with you, the local multi can be a blast. There's lots of gametypes and some good maps. If not, it's probably not worth it.

The control scheme is also used, however, in Call of Duty 4 DS and Call of Duty: World at War, and happily both of those have much more solid single-player content. They both push the envelope of the system graphically, and WaW also has online multi (which I haven't tried). I enjoyed beating CoD 4 and expect I will also probably enjoy WaW all the way through. CoD 4 did a particularly good job of replicating the "special" missions of the larger-console games, like turret missions and the night-time bombing run.

Starfox: Command, while not a FPS, also uses the stylus-as-aiming control scheme, and I like it a lot in that game as well. The online multi in that is a little odd, but enjoyable.

(3) I think in the flashcard department the CycloDS is the pretty clear frontrunner at the moment. R4 is all but dead, in terms of support - the last firmware update for it was back in April of this year, and another does not seem to be forthcoming. Also, it doesn't support SDHC cards, so your space will be limited.

Cyclo, on the other hand, is still getting regular firmware upgrades (last one in late November), supports SDHC, and has some great extraneous features (in-game text reader for pulling up a guide, real-time saving, GBA compatibility if you have a 3-in-1, other stuff I can't remember right now).

Supercard, I don't know anything about, but I can't imagine its featureset trumps Cyclo's. I had an R4 which died on me, and I replaced it with a Cyclo because of the SDHC support. I've been very happy with the Cyclo. I bought mine from RealHotStuff (http://www.realhotstuff.com/-c-61_90.html), though they seem to only sell it as a bundle now, which seems a waste. I've purchased other things like my 3-in-1 from DealExtreme, but they don't seem to stock the Cyclo.

There's some awesome homebrew out there - make sure you check out water-painting-esque Colors (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/) and Pocket Physics (http://www.dsfanboy.com/2007/12/24/pocket-physics-brings-a-taste-of-crayon-physics-to-the-ds/), among many others. (I think I remember you like roguelikes? Nethack and Crawl have good ports available, and there are at least a couple custom DS ones as well, Powder being most well known. List here (http://roguebasin.roguelikedevelopment.org/index.php?title=List_of_handheld_roguelikes#Ninten do_DS).)

I think that's all I know to tell you. Enjoy! Merry Christmas. :D

[J Arcane]

What's a 3-in-1? I'm not familiar with that term, not really familiar with much of this homebrew stuff at all really. THe PSP was all firmware upgrades, no external hardware required.

Oh, and do the lites still come with one of those thumbstrap thingies?

[Mastergeo7]

3) Which hombebrew/emulator/flashcart thingy? From my research, it seems like the three main options are the R4, Supercard, and Cyclo. Who has used what, and can they share any relative information as to which one to go with? Which one is supported by the most homebrew software, which one has the best firmware, which is most reliable, and advice on how to find one from a dealer that doesn't seem likely to scam me, that sort of thing.

We have an Old Supercard here and everything works perfectly, you just have to patch things a little bit, but it's nothing really complicated. There are some really cool pieces of software, like a SCUMMVM port, drawing software, a lot of tools for music creation and even a Quake port!

[Ravenlock]

What's a 3-in-1? I'm not familiar with that term, not really familiar with much of this homebrew stuff at all really. THe PSP was all firmware upgrades, no external hardware required.

Oh, and do the lites still come with one of those thumbstrap thingies?

3-in-1 is a Slot-2 (the GBA slot) flashcard that does - as per the name - 3 things. It functions as a rumblepack, it functions as an extra RAM pack (for the Opera browser, and for any homebrew that uses it like the Quake 2 port), and it holds GBA programs (homebrew or the other thing) in its temporary memory to allow you to play them as though they were plugged into the GBA slot. Typically, for the third function, you use it in conjunction with a Slot-1 card like the Cyclo, storing the GBA program on the Cyclo and then copying it into the 3-in-1's temporary memory to use it. The 3-in-1 can also keep 1 GBA program resident in memory at a time, to be used without the Cyclo/R4/etc.

I got mine here (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2967), if that stuff sounds interesting to you.

EDIT: No idea about the thumbstrap thingy, sorry.

[Stmfuller]

Adavance Wars:DoR is pretty awesome! Challenging from start to finish with decent replayability.

Civ:Rev is also a lot of fun...I've played it for hours at a time (up until I sold my DS).

[Disgustipated]

Supercard DS One is a lot cheaper than the Cyclo, and almost as good.