Indian Attacks

[Ox]

CNN is reporting at least seven terrorist attacks in the past two hours in Mumbai (Bombay), including at the airport, a hospital, and two hotels frequented by western tourists. Government reports indicate at least 78 dead already, and at least 15 people have been taken hostage at the two hotels.

Thoughts and prayers with the people of Mumbai and the hostages.

[Disgustipated]

Ugh, nevermind. Can't find the smiley. Lame Thanksgiving thoughts for everyone.

[Ghostbear]

My thoughts go out to the people affected by this, it is a terrible thing.

[Ancalagon]

Holy crap dude. Thats terrible!

Terrorism = scum of the earth. No matter which side you are on.

[Serapth]

Holy crap dude. Thats terrible!

Terrorism = scum of the earth. No matter which side you are on.

Damn that Boston tea party!

Be careful how quickly you paint the world in black and white.


As to these attacks, I hope India gets everything under control. These truly do look like the scum of the earth.

[Generation ABXY]

The scale of the attacks (so many locations, the number injured, etc.) just blew my mind. Such a gloomy note to begin a holiday on, and I have no doubt that this developing story will occupy my mind something fierce.

While there are rumblings that this is al Qaeda, I've also heard that another, entirely different group has claimed responsibility. I wonder what their motivation was...

[Serapth]

The scale of the attacks (so many locations, the number injured, etc.) just blew my mind. Such a gloomy note to begin a holiday on, and I have no doubt that this developing story will occupy my mind something fierce.

While there are rumblings that this is al Qaeda, I've also heard that another, entirely different group has claimed responsibility. I wonder what their motivation was...

If this is Al Qaeda, I will eat my hat. Hell, I would be shocked if Al Qaeda really even exists anymore as an effective fighting force. They do make for convenient propaganda though. I swear, it almost sounded like CNN was pissing themselves to blame this on Al Qaeda, just as they did in Spain and England before this. The need for an identifiable enemy is a strong, blinding emotion.

[Fubl]

India has alot of their own homegrown "non conventional fighters" as someone already said its not always black and white. People saying al quaeda is a result of the US news churning them up at even the first throught of terrorism. There are alot of factors in india that people are rebeling against so who knows .....

[Generation ABXY]

If this is Al Qaeda, I will eat my hat. Hell, I would be shocked if Al Qaeda really even exists anymore as an effective fighting force. They do make for convenient propaganda though. I swear, it almost sounded like CNN was pissing themselves to blame this on Al Qaeda, just as they did in Spain and England before this. The need for an identifiable enemy is a strong, blinding emotion.

I don't know enough about this attack (or al Qaeda) to say one way or another, but I do agree that they are a popular scapegoat (if that's the right term). From what I've seen, the group that is claiming responsibility is called Deccan Mujahideen; apparently they weren't very well known before, so they do have reason to either pull off a big attack or simply lie about it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[Spectre-7]

I don't know enough about this attack (or al Qaeda) to say one way or another, but I do agree that they are a popular scapegoat (if that's the right term). From what I've seen, the group that is claiming responsibility is called Deccan Mujahideen; apparently they weren't very well known before, so they do have reason to either pull off a big attack or simply lie about it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Scapegoat does the trick, but I think red herring might work better.

[Serapth]

They are talking about this like it would take a fucking mastermind to arrange everything.

Jesus fucking christ guys, from what I have seen so far, this attack would require less logistics then the average group of twelve year olds arranging a trip to the mall while coordinating their outfits and makeup. CNN is really trying to make it look like some uber epic plot run by some Bond-esque villain.

[Ravenlock]

If this is Al Qaeda, I will eat my hat. Hell, I would be shocked if Al Qaeda really even exists anymore as an effective fighting force. They do make for convenient propaganda though. I swear, it almost sounded like CNN was pissing themselves to blame this on Al Qaeda, just as they did in Spain and England before this. The need for an identifiable enemy is a strong, blinding emotion.

This really bothered me as well. Obviously, it might turn out to have some operational connection to Al Qaeda (though like you, I doubt it), but you're right, CNN was falling over themselves to try to connect it as quickly as possible, and when people on the other end were saying "well, we have no evidence of that right now" the rejoinder was along the lines of "okay, so it might be connected to Al Qaeda, we don't know for sure at this point." ...Somebody somewhere did a bad thing, it's gotta be Bin Laden, right? Right? It's gotta be Emmanuel Goldstein, right?

It's a little depressing to see 1984's Two Minute Hate played out so transparently and so willingly in front of us. I don't believe there's a justifiable excuse for attacking civilians in pretty much any circumstance, and I fervently hope that the people responsible for this are apprehended so that they can be tried, convicted, and punished. But it was so plain to see how hard CNN was trying to instantly link the whole thing to Al Qaeda, almost as though if it wasn't Al Qaeda responsible, they'd have nothing to talk about and their viewers would immediately lose interest.

Which, sadly, might be completely true. :(

[Inspector Fowler]

Damn that Boston tea party!

Be careful how quickly you paint the world in black and white.


When we discover that, as part of the Boston Tea Party, the colonists also killed a couple hundred unarmed civilians and held hundreds more as terrified captives, I might get a little closer to your point of view.

While I agree that the definition of "patriot" and "rebel scum" will always vary depending on your side, there are tactics that can never, ever be acceptable. America has done some shitty things in its time but the Boston Tea Party was not one of them.

[Ravenlock]

Jesus fucking christ guys, from what I have seen so far, this attack would require less logistics then the average group of twelve year olds arranging a trip to the mall while coordinating their outfits and makeup. CNN is really trying to make it look like some uber epic plot run by some Bond-esque villain.

I remember after 9/11 seeing CNN bring experts on to talk about how Al Qaeda had literal underground fortresses beneath the caves of Afghanistan. I mean, seriously, Bond-style concrete lairs complete with hidden access tunnels, massive weapons storage facilities, and, presumably, shark-filled tanks and torture chambers.

It strained all credulity to even entertain the thought, but they spent forever going back and forth about how widespread and well funded these (literal) underground networks were, whether bunker buster bombs would be effective against them, how we might flush them out, etc.

Of course it all turned out to be utter nonsense, but that's how easily paranoia and a little misled imagination can become news. Which, sadly, more or less completely validates the concept of terrorism. With only small (compared to a war), horrific conflict, they inflict maximum fear. We build them up into the sort of opponent we envision as being able to do this to us, when in fact it takes far less than we presume.

[Serapth]

When we discover that, as part of the Boston Tea Party, the colonists also killed a couple hundred unarmed civilians and held hundreds more as terrified captives, I might get a little closer to your point of view.

While I agree that the definition of "patriot" and "rebel scum" will always vary depending on your side, there are tactics that can never, ever be acceptable. America has done some shitty things in its time but the Boston Tea Party was not one of them.

We are going way off the topic, but... well, you started it.

The definition of terrorist can definatly be defined by it's generation. The revolutionary war was terrorism on the simple fact that they didn't respect the rules of war. The "terrorists", refused to behave in a civilized manner and form in uniform lines dressed in bright uniforms. Instead they hid in forests and employed snipers... terrorist acts of the day.

And no, I am not kidding.

[ClannerDelta]

We are going way off the topic, but... well, you started it.

The definition of terrorist can definatly be defined by it's generation. The revolutionary war was terrorism on the simple fact that they didn't respect the rules of war. The "terrorists", refused to behave in a civilized manner and form in uniform lines dressed in bright uniforms. Instead they hid in forests and employed snipers... terrorist acts of the day.

And no, I am not kidding.
Yeah, but that really has no bearing on this specific event in the slightest. You're not only playing semantics, you're playing temporal semantics. It's like a terrible Star Trek TNG filler episode with Data as the main character. ;)

[Loki]

Terrorism is just a method of war. It has been used in the past and the blanket term 'WAR ON TERROR!!!" is an aggregious use of the word.

Terror's only true definition is a violent attack on non-combative targets to motivate a larger group (i.e. the government) to do something that they believe is in their interest, usually involving much public attention to the act. Hiding in forests and employing snipers isn't terrorism, it is guerilla warfare, which is quite different than terrorism although they maintain the similarity of being 'dishonorable'. This is assuming that their targets were combatants. Boston Tea party could loosely be defined as terrorism, although it would be more in line with destruction of property as it was not violent and did not deliberately target non-combatants.

Given this definition, the nuclear bombings of Tokyo could be interpreted as an act of terror, although it gains legitimacy since it was backed by a government.

[ClannerDelta]

I do not know of a prominent example of actual terrorism that was conducted by America (past or present), but I may just be uninformed.

Wiki link to My Lai Massacre... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre) I'd classify this as out and out terrorism. Warning: There is a pretty terrible image right at the load in.

[Loki]

Wiki link to My Lai Massacre... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Lai_massacre) I'd classify this as out and out terrorism. Warning: There is a pretty terrible image right at the load in.

I edited it with one that is more in line with the description. The Mai Lai massacre wasn't an act of terror, at least I don't see it as such, due to it being condcuted not to influence the larger group to do something. They tried to keep it secret, not espouse it from the roof tops.

[Serapth]

As I started the whole America as a bunch of terrorist tangent, I want to be the one to stop it. I didn't mean to say the Americans are ( or aren't ) a bunch of terrorists, I simply meant to illustrate that things are not so simply black and white, and what is or isn't terrorism is generally determined by the pages of history, not by you or I.

[J Arcane]

We are going way off the topic, but... well, you started it.

The definition of terrorist can definatly be defined by it's generation. The revolutionary war was terrorism on the simple fact that they didn't respect the rules of war. The "terrorists", refused to behave in a civilized manner and form in uniform lines dressed in bright uniforms. Instead they hid in forests and employed snipers... terrorist acts of the day.

And no, I am not kidding.
That's an old bogus myth perpetrated by propogandist history books.

The truth of the matter is we did plenty of straight up warfare ourselves in that war.

We also only really won because Britain stopped caring. If they'd held out another year we'd've remained a British colonie, which would've been just fine with a good 2/3 of the population at the time.

[Ancalagon]

We are going way off the topic, but... well, you started it.

The definition of terrorist can definatly be defined by it's generation. The revolutionary war was terrorism on the simple fact that they didn't respect the rules of war. The "terrorists", refused to behave in a civilized manner and form in uniform lines dressed in bright uniforms. Instead they hid in forests and employed snipers... terrorist acts of the day.

And no, I am not kidding.

They didnt snipe civilians though. Same kinda thing happened during the Boer War - the Boer snipers picked off the British officers wearing the shiny buttons, so the British adopted a scorched earth policy, destroying all arable land and putting women and children into concentration camps with harsh conditions.

[Narradisall]

Pretty terrible thing. Seems they were targetting Americans and Britons.

But then they did just open up with AK47's and grenades on pretty much everyone.

One day it will be nice not to be the target of all this crap.

[TrackZero]

...Somebody somewhere did a bad thing, it's gotta be Bin Laden, right? Right? It's gotta be Emmanuel Goldstein, right?


http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9866/fryseewhatyoudidtherefr8.jpg

[TrackZero]

We are going way off the topic, but... well, you started it.

The definition of terrorist can definatly be defined by it's generation. The revolutionary war was terrorism on the simple fact that they didn't respect the rules of war. The "terrorists", refused to behave in a civilized manner and form in uniform lines dressed in bright uniforms. Instead they hid in forests and employed snipers... terrorist acts of the day.

And no, I am not kidding.

Comparing the act of killing combatants to non-combatants...no, that wasn't terrorism.

[MagGnome]

Are you guys really arguing semantics in the midst of this tragedy? :confused:

[opsin]

Are you guys really arguing semantics in the midst of this tragedy? :confused:

I had been thinking something along the lines of 'this is why fora ought avoid politics'.

There's really nothing to say but that this is terrible. Anything else and it just seems glib, or stupid.

I had sort of forgotten about this having heard reports on the radio last night, but explains why I have been so angry all day. I'm just stupified trying to comprehend (ever) how these people can justify their violence. And well, I know how they do, being fundamentalists and all, but it just makes it more bizarrely inexplicable.

[EternalGamer]

My partner is in India right now and I have no way to contact him. His phone doesn't work over there and I am visiting family for Thanksgiving and don't have his itenerary with hotel phone numbers with me. I know they were staying in this hotel for at least a couple of nights. But I haven't heard of any American casualties yet and he is there for a month so the odds of him being at this hotel at this precise moment are probably pretty slim. At least that is what I keep telling myself for the moment.

[opsin]

At least that is what I keep telling myself for the moment.

My fingers are firmly crossed. Does seem unlikely given timings, but horrible that you have no way to get in touch. Hopefully he finds a way to contact you there.

[Schnoogs]

Damn that Boston tea party!.

Dumping tea != shooting and bombing hotels

LOGIC FAIL

[MagGnome]

I hope that everything turns out for the best EG. I'll definitely keep you and your partner in my thoughts. Hopefully he is able to contact you soon. I'm sure that communication there is chaotic right now.

[Serapth]

Dumping tea != shooting and bombing hotels

LOGIC FAIL

Hey, AIDS is worse then gonorrhea. Doesn't mean I want either to happen to me.

[EternalGamer]

My fingers are firmly crossed. Does seem unlikely given timings, but horrible that you have no way to get in touch. Hopefully he finds a way to contact you there.

I hope that everything turns out for the best EG. I'll definitely keep you and your partner in my thoughts. Hopefully he is able to contact you soon. I'm sure that communication there is chaotic right now.

Thanks for the well wishes. I probably won't know anything until the weekend when I'm able to get back into town. However, as I said, I am not letting myself get too concerned over it since the chances are extrmely low. It's like hearing of a random killing in the city and automatically assuming it is someone you know. India is uh... very big. That said, I'm glad he'll be back next week.

[Serapth]

Thanks for the well wishes. I probably won't know anything until the weekend when I'm able to get back into town. However, as I said, I am not letting myself get too concerned over it since the chances are extrmely low. It's like hearing of a random killing in the city and automatically assuming it is someone you know. India is uh... very big. That said, I'm glad he'll be back next week.

Take solace in the mathematics of probability. 1.2 billion residents + however many visitors. Frankly, with numbers like that, you are in greater risk then he is!

Best wishes all the same though.