Bungie: For The Love of God, Don't Install Halo 3!

[DoctorFinger]

Bungie has a warning for it's fans: don't install Halo 3 using the NXE's new quick load feature.

Because of how Halo 3 uses the hard drive - it caches maps to the hard drive if present - not only will you not see any improvement in loading times, the game will actually run drastically slower if installed. In essence your HDD will be trying to perform 2 functions at once; accessing game data while also accessing the cached maps.

Bungie's answer is to simply just not install Halo 3, and avoid the problems altogether.

Sources - Bungie Boards (http://www.bungie.net/News/content.aspx?type=news&cid=16252); Edge-Online (http://www.edge-online.com/news/don%E2%80%99t-install-halo-3-bungie-warns).

[NoName]

Haha, opps?

I wonder if any other games are similarly effected.

[KingGorilla]

I saw this on Shack News. Basically since Halo 3 was already properly coded for using the disc, caching large assets, the game gets confused. A patch would not be possible, so sayeth the overlords.

[Goronmon]

Makes sense, and there are probably other titles that have the same issue.

[Shadowstorm]

The problem with this is that not everyone will obviously hear this news. Basically, Microsoft needs to go in and disable this feature for these "problem titles".

[TrackZero]

Makes no sense. Rock Band and it's sequel access data the same way and run MUCH better installed.

[Goronmon]

Makes no sense. Rock Band and it's sequel access data the same way and run MUCH better installed.I have to imagine that caching a map from Halo 3 leaves a much bigger memory footprint than anything Rock Band is tossing around.

[Carnifex]

That can't be the sole reason. Wouldn't both access time and transfer rate from HDD be better than from disc anyway?

[Press Ninja]

I'm betting its happening to most games pressed around or before Halo 3's launch, but has there been any confirmation of games other than Halo 3?

[Goronmon]

That can't be the sole reason. Wouldn't both access time and transfer rate from HDD be better than from disc anyway?It's actually explained pretty well in the article.

Basically, the way the caching to the HDD worked previously, it always assumed it was reading from a DVD. That means that if the game is installed the HDD drive, the game still tries to cache the maps from the HDD. That means it's copying and writing back to the same device. So the procedure takes the total time between the read and the write together. If it's caching off a disc it can write to the HDD at the same time it's reading off the disc, so it ends up being faster.

[Mdot]

Makes no sense. Rock Band and it's sequel access data the same way and run MUCH better installed.

First thing I installed yesterday.

[Variable Gear]

I am not surprised (http://www.bingegamer.net/2008/so-how-much-time-are-you-saving-xbox-360-nxe-hard-drive-install-chart/).

[Carnifex]

It's actually explained pretty well in the article.
Yikes, I actually missed the links. I must be going blind from some of the threads in the lounge.

Basically, the way the caching to the HDD worked previously, it always assumed it was reading from a DVD. That means that if the game is installed the HDD drive, the game still tries to cache the maps from the HDD. That means it's copying and writing back to the same device. So the procedure takes the total time between the read and the write together. If it's caching off a disc it can write to the HDD at the same time it's reading off the disc, so it ends up being faster.
I realize this, but a typical 2.5" HDD has ~10x better access time than a 12x DVD-ROM and at least 1.5x the transfer rate. It just seems weird.

From the article it seems only the loading screens are affected. A small price to pay for reduced noise in my opinion. The link Variable Gear posted shows almost all games tested so far benefit when running from HDD.

[Cupelix]

I am not surprised (http://www.bingegamer.net/2008/so-how-much-time-are-you-saving-xbox-360-nxe-hard-drive-install-chart/).
Based on the numbers in that chart, I don't see any need to ever install a game to the hard drive. Speed gains are, in the grand scheme of things, minor. Plus, you still have to have the disc in, so it's not going to make switching between games any easier.

[Goronmon]

Speed gains are, in the grand scheme of things, minor. Plus, you still have to have the disc in, so it's not going to make switching between games any easier.Assuming this does remove the need for the disc to be spinning during gameplay, the noise reduction alone is reason enough for me to install a game.

[Bingley Joe]

Assuming this does remove the need for the disc to be spinning during gameplay, the noise reduction alone is reason enough for me to install a game.

Exactly. These people jumping all over themselves timing level loads are completely missing the point here; haven't they noticed that they can now actually hear their stopwatches ;)

Quiet electronics FTW!!!

[biosc1]

Yikes, I actually missed the links. I must be going blind from some of the threads in the lounge.


I realize this, but a typical 2.5" HDD has ~10x better access time than a 12x DVD-ROM and at least 1.5x the transfer rate. It just seems weird.


The idea is that the read/writes from the hard disc can slow things down because it can only every do one of those at a time...so, what's happening is that it's trying to read from 2 spots on the disc at once, instead of reading from a DVD and the disc.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Based on the numbers in that chart, I don't see any need to ever install a game to the hard drive. Speed gains are, in the grand scheme of things, minor. Plus, you still have to have the disc in, so it's not going to make switching between games any easier.

Future games can actually plan for this feature and take advantage of it.

[Variable Gear]

Future games can actually plan for this feature and take advantage of it.
And the noise issue isn't small. It's quite large. And noisy. :p

[roboninja]

I am not surprised (http://www.bingegamer.net/2008/so-how-much-time-are-you-saving-xbox-360-nxe-hard-drive-install-chart/).

Looking at that, the average install size is 4-6 gigs, some much higher...on usually 20 GB HDs. Can we get a golf clap for MS on this feature?

[Epix]

I'm looking forward to this. I think my disk drive is about to break so this will help prolong its life.

[Wolvie]

I bet other games with DLC maps like CoD4 would do the same. A shame really, because I'm sure there are people out there that would love nothing more then to install those games and not have to swap disks.

[Carnifex]

The idea is that the read/writes from the hard disc can slow things down because it can only every do one of those at a time...so, what's happening is that it's trying to read from 2 spots on the disc at once, instead of reading from a DVD and the disc.
My point is that theoretically it shouldn't matter much. The HDD can access both those two spots in much less time than the DVD drive can access a single spot, and can transfer data from the spots faster than the DVD drive can. Of course, severe fragmentation and lots of write operations will have a negative effect.

Theoretically... :)

[BabyJesus]

My point is that theoretically it shouldn't matter much. The HDD can access both those two spots in much less time than the DVD drive can access a single spot, and can transfer data from the spots faster than the DVD drive can. Of course, severe fragmentation and lots of write operations will have a negative effect.

Theoretically... :)

But slapping the head around the hard disk does involve some overhead. You add a 15ms delay(could be slower too, I'm sure the MS hard disks are no speed demons) for the head to find the data 100 times in a few seconds and that can slow the HD down to the read speed of the CD reading one or a couple large files sequentially.

[MagGnome]

It sounds like this couldn't have been prevented, but it's still something of a screw-up. I'm going to be installing most, or even all, of my 360 games when I get my system back, so hopefully we get a list of titles that will actually run worse when installed.

[Xerxes]

Looking at that, the average install size is 4-6 gigs, some much higher...on usually 20 GB HDs. Can we get a golf clap for MS on this feature?

It's well played. Trying to give you more reasons to go buy a bigger HDD for more money.

[TrackZero]

I am not surprised (http://www.bingegamer.net/2008/so-how-much-time-are-you-saving-xbox-360-nxe-hard-drive-install-chart/).

Not...surprised about what? Those stats in your link show excellent improvements across the board.

[TrackZero]

It's well played. Trying to give you more reasons to go buy a bigger HDD for more money.

For something they had zero obligation to include support for, I'm surprised anyone can complain.

[Wolvie]

Shit I need a bigger HDD anyways. This just gives me one more excuse to get one.

[Rock Bandit]

Not...surprised about what? Those stats in your link show excellent improvements across the board.

Read the entry for Halo 3.

[Carnifex]

But slapping the head around the hard disk does involve some overhead. You add a 15ms delay(could be slower too, I'm sure the MS hard disks are no speed demons) for the head to find the data 100 times in a few seconds and that can slow the HD down to the read speed of the CD reading one or a couple large files sequentially.
Yeah, you're right. I was comparing the storage devices directly based on specs, but that line of reasoning assumes the data is stored identically (contiguous files, placed optimally) which is a false assumption.

Since HDD installation now is an official 360 feature, let's hope all developers who are affected negatively by this will consider making a fix.

[Xerxes]

For something they had zero obligation to include support for, I'm surprised anyone can complain.

I'm not complaining. I do feel I'm going along with the plan of buying a bigger HDD because it's a feature I want to use. Actually I'm looking to upgrade boxes altogether. Get me one of those fancy HDMI ports.

[TrackZero]

Read the entry for Halo 3.

Oh, I know. I just assumed he was slamming the entire thing.

[TrackZero]

I'm not complaining. I do feel I'm going along with the plan of buying a bigger HDD because it's a feature I want to use. Actually I'm looking to upgrade boxes altogether. Get me one of those fancy HDMI ports.

I meant the other guy was complaining Xerx. ;)

[biosc1]

Not...surprised about what? Those stats in your link show excellent improvements across the board.

Lost Odyssey looks like it gained a real advantage with the HDD install

Lost Odyssey 23.2GB 2 times faster playing off HDD

[Zanzibar]

By the way, did everyone see the 60gb HDD is available for $99? Not a great price, of course, but better than the $179 they were charging for the 120gb (maybe it's $149 now)

[alienmastermind]

Mass Effect runs ridiculously better now that I've installed it.
*shrug* My HDD is very small.

[roboninja]

I meant the other guy was complaining Xerx. ;)

You talkin' to me, huh? Wanna make something of it? :p

Yeah, I was sort of complaining, even though I do not even have a 360.

[Disgustipated]

Based on the numbers in that chart, I don't see any need to ever install a game to the hard drive. Speed gains are, in the grand scheme of things, minor. Plus, you still have to have the disc in, so it's not going to make switching between games any easier.

There are some games that get huge gains from HDD installs. Fable 2, for example, actually gets performance gains (not as much pop-in) and the menus load a lot faster. The whole game feels smoother. It makes a huge difference for the right games.

[Rock Bandit]

The hard drive install is worth it for the silence alone. I swear, sometimes my 360 sounds like someone's trying to feed a lead pipe through a salami slicer.

[TrackZero]

Yeah, I was sort of complaining, even though I do not even have a 360.

...There's some kind of bizzare failure in your logic there. I can't quite put my finger on it though. ;)

[OldJadedGamer]

By the way, did everyone see the 60gb HDD is available for $99? Not a great price, of course, but better than the $179 they were charging for the 120gb (maybe it's $149 now)

$134 through Amazon (no tax, free shipping) and then when you are done with the transfer cable, you can sell it on eBay for $35-$40 bucks which seems to be the going rate.

So when all is done it's around $99 for a 120gb HDD for it.

[Sirindu]

There are some games that get huge gains from HDD installs. Fable 2, for example, actually gets performance gains (not as much pop-in) and the menus load a lot faster. The whole game feels smoother. It makes a huge difference for the right games.

Yeah I will definitely be using this for Fable 2 since I've been having some real trouble with that game loading properly lately. And it is usually WAY louder than any of my other games.

[KamaItachi]

Yeah I will definitely be using this for Fable 2 since I've been having some real trouble with that game loading properly lately. And it is usually WAY louder than any of my other games.

The load times aren't reduced an awful lot, but still noticeable. The sheer silence that comes from the machine after installation is unnerving and creepy, but well worth it.

[Sirindu]

The load times aren't reduced an awful lot, but still noticeable. The sheer silence that comes from the machine after installation is unnerving and creepy, but well worth it.

Well, perhaps I'm hoping in vain... but when I say I've been having loading trouble I mean that today I couldn't get one section of the map to load, period. :p

[jpc_theoneandonly]

Could someone explain to me what the advantage is to installing games on the hdd? I'm not too smart when it comes to things of that nature. To me that just seems as if it would take up hdd space and force me to buy a bigger one which I am sure is just around the corner.

[mister slim]

I'm looking forward to this. I think my disk drive is about to break so this will help prolong its life.

Same here. Hopefully I can squeeze out enough space for 2 installs.

I bet other games with DLC maps like CoD4 would do the same. A shame really, because I'm sure there are people out there that would love nothing more then to install those games and not have to swap disks.

DLC maps shouldn't be a problem. The game knows where those maps are and doesn't try to copy them to the cache.

[KamaItachi]

Could someone explain to me what the advantage is to installing games on the hdd? I'm not too smart when it comes to things of that nature. To me that just seems as if it would take up hdd space and force me to buy a bigger one which I am sure is just around the corner.

See my above quote for a short answer. Ultimately it isn't that much of a difference in cutting down loading times, but the strain it saves on your disc drive and a quiet machine more than make up for having to do some memory management to fit some of the installs on the HDD.

[rinichanraar]

I am not surprised (http://www.bingegamer.net/2008/so-how-much-time-are-you-saving-xbox-360-nxe-hard-drive-install-chart/).

The only game I've installed so far (Call of Duty: World at War) isn't on that list. I don't really notice long load times anyway, so it's not really a big deal to me. Just thought it was funny that it just happened to be absent.

[MalReynolds]

put it up as a notice on x-box live