Wrath of the Lich King. All bosses down.

[Squidbot]

From Eurogamer: (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=307355)

A European World of Warcraft raiding guild has announced that it has killed all of the raid bosses in new expansion Wrath of the Lich King in just under three days.

The guild is a raiding super-group formed from a merger between Nihilum and SK Gaming. It doesn't have an official name yet, going under the temporary moniker TwentyFifthNovember - which is when we'll find out what it's really called.

Nihilum and SK Gaming are the two foremost guilds on the semi-professional WOW raiding scene, with an unbroken string of world-first boss kills between them that goes back two-and-a-half years. While there are no official raiding competitions, leading guilds can expect to earn money from sponsorship deals and promotions.

According to MMO Champion, the guild killed Kel'thuzad of the Naxxramas dungeon, Sartharion of the Obsidian Sanctum, and Malygos of the Eye of Eternity within a few hours of each other on Saturday afternoon.

With Wrath of the Lich King servers opening late on Wednesday night, it only took the guild 68 hours and 30 minutes to get to a stage where it could defeat the hardest boss.

A message from the guild on the TwentyFifthNovember site was critical of how easy it had found the 25-player raids to be.

"This is both a moment of triumph and a cause for concern," said the statement.

"This is both a moment of triumph and a cause for concern," said the statement.

"Did Blizzard miscalculate in the tuning of these encounters? Or is this Blizzard folding under the weight of a large casual player base that demands to be on equal footing with end-game raiders?"

The mystery guild will now have to wait until the Ulduar raid is released in the next content update before it can attempt to claim another first.

10/10 for effort, minus several billion for having a life.

[Bad Buddha]

Nihilum and SK Gaming are the two foremost guilds on the semi-professional WOW raiding scene, with an unbroken string of world-first boss kills between them that goes back two-and-a-half years.

Damn! If I had that on my resume, I bet I could get a raise!

[Abednigo]

Did Blizzard miscalculate in the tuning of these encounters to those with no life?

Fixed.

I think this was posted over the weekend, but still, it's lame. I take my time and enjoy the game. I don't see the point of doing something like this unless you just get off being able to say you can beat an expansion in 3 days. And what does "semi-professional" mean when it comes to gaming? Do they make money off doing this? Or just get another "15 minutes"?

Say hello to every member of TwentyFifthNovember.

http://loot-ninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/1008_jenkins.jpg

[Goronmon]

I have always found it amusing when people on a gaming forum make fun of others for playing video games too much.

[Abednigo]

I have always found it amusing when people on a gaming forum make fun of others for playing video games too much.

We make fun of them for having less of a life than we do. ;)

[Ink Asylum]

So now what do they do for the next two years?

"Did Blizzard miscalculate in the tuning of these encounters? Or is this Blizzard folding under the weight of a large casual player base that demands to be on equal footing with end-game raiders?"

QQ

I wonder what the breakdown of that 10+million is between casuals and end-gamers? They all pay the same $16 a month, why shouldn't Blizz cater their content to the vast majority?

I have always found it amusing when people on a gaming forum make fun of others for playing video games too much.

Why does this always get trotted out? The internet, and forums in particular, long ago ceased to be the sole dominion of shut-ins. Does someone have to express an opinion lounging in a hot tub full of strippers for it not to be seen as ironic?

Yeah, we're all posting about games. They're our hobbies, not our second unpaid jobs. If these guys really do earn money from being top raiders somehow then it becomes a bit less pointless, but somehow I doubt they're making all that much.

[Deadend]

Meh, if the uber epeeners want to go be godlike, they should play a less casual MMO.

[digitalErich]

QQ

I wonder what the breakdown of that 10+million is between casuals and end-gamers? They all pay the same $16 a month, why shouldn't Blizz cater their content to the vast majority?
You're making too much sense, there Ink :) Didn't you know, since the Hardcore put more time in to the game, they are entitled to priority when it comes to content :p

If people want a game that's a second job, there are plenty of other MMOs out there. Speaking for myself, I love WoW more with every expansion. Yes, there is a lower barrier to entry for more of the content now, but to complain about that just boggles my mind to the point where I really cannot understand the underlying thought processes of these people.

People that seriously get upset that more people get to see the same content, get the same gear as them really need to take a look at themselves...they are sad, sad people.

[digitalErich]

Meh, if the uber epeeners want to go be godlike, they should play a less casual MMO.
You make fun of the "epeeners" while subtly stroking your own by belittling their accomplishment as casual...interesting.

Unless you stopped buying new games at the SNES generation, gaming in general is more casual than it was a decade ago. Sure, there are exceptions but as a whole, gaming is more approachable than ever. It was tough to beat an NES game, these days beating a game is expected. No shooter since has been as deep or had the learning curve of Tribes (IMO) but I don't look down my nose at every new shooter because it's 'easier.' TF2 is a simpler game than TF and you know what? It's a better game for it.

Games today are more fun and I get to play more of them and see more of the ones I play. Anyone that laments that is just bitter for some reason I can't understand.

[Ink Asylum]

People that seriously get upset that more people get to see the same content, get the same gear as them really need to take a look at themselves...they are sad, sad people.

Yeah. It happens every time they remove attunement requirements to some high level dungeon and players wig out. I just don't get that mentality.

[Goronmon]

Why does this always get trotted out? The internet, and forums in particular, long ago ceased to be the sole dominion of shut-ins. Does someone have to express an opinion lounging in a hot tub full of strippers for it not to be seen as ironic?No, like I said, I find it amusing. It's a matter of perspective. People here think taking raiding seriously is ridiculous and should be worthy of ridicule. On the other hand, there are people who game but think talking about it on forums is ridiculous and worthy of ridicule. Just like there are people who think that video games in general are ridiculous and worthy of ridicule.

So, these guys like to play WoW a lot? Not sure why that automatically makes them losers with no life. I guess I just figure that people who spend free time discussing and arguing over gaming would be a bit more understanding as to why these guys get so into it.

[QueQueg]

LOL YEAH F'ING NERDS!

Seriously though, how many folks are required for these boss-fights? I guess WoW's end-game has gotten away from 40-man content, so what are these? 20? 10-man raids?

Either way, that means that 10-20 folks power-leveled their d00ds to 80 in a matter of a few days?

I have to agree, they're playing the wrong game. They should be playing FFXI, Lineage 2, or some other super-grind-fest Japanese/Korean jobby.

[Smoof]

http://www.kraproom.com/pacman/aod/gallery/d/3429-1/Gamers.jpg

I hate pulling this out, because I think it's a poor argument, but I'll be damned if it isn't true.

I think the idea that people find this absurd is the fact that there's no real gain. You have an experience to share with friends, but those are largely "internet friends". Ten years down the road, it's likely you wont be talking to these people anymore, because they were strictly over the internet. Not only that, but what have you accomplished ten years from now when they wipe and shut down the servers?

This is just sad, no matter how much you want to defend these people.

[Lon Lon Rabbit]

http://loot-ninja.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/1008_jenkins.jpg

Haha, I've seen that picture and that episode so many times, but this is the first time I've noticed he has an Okama Gamesphere in the background.

[Bad Buddha]

So, these guys like to play WoW a lot? Not sure why that automatically makes them losers with no life. I guess I just figure that people who spend free time discussing and arguing over gaming would be a bit more understanding as to why these guys get so into it.

I think we're talking about extremes here.

I might have a couple of drinks during the course of the week, but that won't stop me from telling a friend that drinks a liter of vodka a day that he's making some screwed-up decisions in his life.

[Shrinn]

Yeah. It happens every time they remove attunement requirements to some high level dungeon and players wig out. I just don't get that mentality.

That's because some people feel that if they accomplish something, everyone else should have to accomplish the same thing.

Ex) You paid 5000 gold for your epic flying mount training after hours and hours of training. The next week they cut the price to 500 gold. You'd be at least a little bothered.

[Ink Asylum]

That's because some people feel that if they accomplish something, everyone else should have to accomplish the same thing.

Ex) You paid 5000 gold for your epic flying mount training after hours and hours of training. The next week they cut the price to 500 gold. You'd be at least a little bothered.

Not if it's happening in a VIDEO GAME. If it happened in real life with my real money, I'd be a bit miffed, but getting upset because somebody gets to do something easier than I did in a game is absurd. If it happens then it shouldn't bother you as long as you enjoyed the time you spent getting that virtual money/gear/attunement/etc. If you didn't enjoy the time you spent getting whatever it is someone now is getting easier then that's the problem.

[Dark Acre Jack]

We make fun of them for having less of a life than we do. ;)

Haha.

Yeah. But.

They're done with the game now. :D

[Ink Asylum]

Like they're going to stop playing. They gotta keep in practice! Can't get rusty!

[Shrinn]

If it happens then it shouldn't bother you as long as you enjoyed the time you spent getting that virtual money/gear/attunement/etc. If you didn't enjoy the time you spent getting whatever it is someone now is getting easier then that's the problem.

Some people don't find enjoyment in the task, only in the reward.
Push button, receive bacon.
Pushing the button sucks, but the bacon is delicious.

[Cyrillus]

I have always found it amusing when people on a gaming forum make fun of others for playing video games too much.

This. Vehemently this. I love how people make fun of others (who may or may not play the same game) for being "more hardcore" into a game than others. My friends and I play Magic: The Gathering, and a couple of them always make fun of the guys that go play at regional tournaments as being more nerdy/geeky than us, even though my group of friends meets once a week to play, and even plays in local tournaments.

I'm not a "hardcore raider", but I don't understand why people say, "wow no life, they finished the content soo fast". These same people say "I take my time and enjoy the scenery." Is it not feasible that the "hardcore raiders" enjoy rushing to the end-game content and completing it?

A bit of a rant, yes, but I've just never understood this mentality.

[Hotcod]

people like to feel better than other people... the raid guilds like to feel better than the none raid guilds but doing this kind of stuff, people here seem to like to feel better to the raid guild by attacking them just like i'm sure there's a lot of people who like to feel better by making fun of the kind of person that posts on this forum.

Funny thing is no one is better than any one else, your all equally pathetic for trying to establish your own sense of self worth by looking down on other people.... and i'm probably just as bad for posting this rant but at lest i know it.

[Wedge]

I actually agree with these guys. As one of those rare gamers who enjoys a challenge, dying and having to restart, this sounds a bit sad. Some of the "old" bosses in WoW took a long time to beat, and it therefore became more of an event when it first happened. I enjoyed walking around knowing there were bosses I would never be a part of beating. It adds spice. It is a part of the "there is always something you can do"-feel. Even if you know you are never going to do it.

Sure, WoW is a more casual MMO, but there is little reason for an MMO not to cater to both the very casual and very hardcore.

[Squidbot]

So, apparently speed levelling a guild to 80 and defeating every boss in the expansion in less than three days is healthy behaviour, and I'm a bad person for believing otherwise. Screw sleeping patterns, fresh air, social interaction. Staying glued to your new game for three days is fine!

[Hotcod]

So, apparently speed levelling a guild to 80 and defeating every boss in the expansion in less than three days is healthy behaviour, and I'm a bad person for believing otherwise. Screw sleeping patterns, fresh air, social interaction. Staying glued to your new game for three days is fine!

What the fuck dose it matter to you what these people do for fun? If they are enjoying them self what right do you have to say that it's wrong? and i bet if i looked over your life i could find thing to criticise in exactly the same way but that you would defend beacuse you did them. I also bet everything you do is for the best and perfectly healthy and good for you in ever damn possible way.

I don't care that it's not something that you would want to do beacuse it's not something i would want to do but you have no right to sit there feeling smug when there's more than likely a 99% chance that your being a giant hypocrite.

[Squidbot]

Would you like to be a little more hostile? I'm entitled to my opinion, you're entitled to yours, the only difference being you seem to feel the need to be overly defensive and outright rude about putting yours across.

[Hotcod]

Would you like to be a little more hostile? I'm entitled to my opinion, you're entitled to yours, the only difference being you seem to feel the need to be overly defensive and outright rude about putting yours across.

Yes i would and frankly i felt i rather restrained my self given if i said what i honestly thought of people who act like you i'd likely get banned. Just beacuse it's an opinion dose not mean it can't be wrong and is not a get out of jail free card for being a damned hypocrite.

Talking of being hypocritical YOU want to talk about rude? frankly if you can't see what's wrong with that then no wonder you are scrambling to call me defensive because you clearly are unable to understand what yours and other peoples posts in this tread are doing that has gotten me so worked up.

[Abednigo]

The grammar police would have a field day here. ;)

[Squidbot]

Yes i would and frankly i felt i rather restrained my self given if i said what i honestly thought of people who act like you i'd likely get banned. Just beacuse it's an opinion dose not mean it can't be wrong and is not a get out of jail free card for being a damned hypocrite.

Well, you see, that’s the thing about opinions, people’s differ, that’s the point. Playing the “You are entitled to your opinion but it is wrong” card is a weak argument.
You seem to be keen on marking me as hypocritical regarding the accomplishment of Nihilum, so allow me to make my point perfectly clear, which I did not do earlier in the thread:
I play WoW, I raid, I enjoy it a lot. I think it’s remarkable that the content has been cleared so swiftly, and I agree that it is worrying that the content is so easy.
What I do not agree with is the behaviour of a group of people playing three days straight in order to “finish” the game. I find this to be unhealthy behaviour, regardless of the game. And again, this is just my opinion. Play any game however you like, whenever you like, but as with all things in life it should be accompanied by self moderation. People have died playing MMO’s because they don’t know when to stop, and this trend of marathon grinding in order to obtain a world first concerns me, as it encourages people to game like this, and whichever way you spin it that is not healthy behaviour.

Talking of being hypocritical YOU want to talk about rude? frankly if you can't see what's wrong with that then no wonder you are scrambling to call me defensive because you clearly are unable to understand what yours and other peoples posts in this tread are doing that has gotten me so worked up.

Ironically, it appears you cannot perceive the difference between what you see as rude in my posts and your behaviour. I apologise for having caused you so much anger, but you are right; I cannot see what it is that has caused your outrage, but as you seem unwilling to have a civilized debate without such belligerence then I’ll just leave you to your indignance. You seem to have a problem with me, I wonder if that is caused by this thread alone, but I shan't let it worry me.
Again, I apologise for the distress this thread has clearly caused you, but I stand by my opinion that it indicates an unhealthy obsession.

[Ancalagon]

Some people don't find enjoyment in the task, only in the reward.
Push button, receive bacon.
Pushing the button sucks, but the bacon is delicious.

Thats the reason I stopped playing WoW. The tasks were never cool enough for me to feel motivated to get more bling, sorry I mean loot. Anyone who plays this game solely for the loot is a loser, sorry. If you play it because you enjoy killing monsters with friends, fine.

[Hotcod]

Well, you see, that’s the thing about opinions, people’s differ, that’s the point. Playing the “You are entitled to your opinion but it is wrong” card is a weak argument.
You seem to be keen on marking me as hypocritical regarding the accomplishment of Nihilum, so allow me to make my point perfectly clear, which I did not do earlier in the thread:
I play WoW, I raid, I enjoy it a lot. I think it’s remarkable that the content has been cleared so swiftly, and I agree that it is worrying that the content is so easy.
What I do not agree with is the behaviour of a group of people playing three days straight in order to “finish” the game. I find this to be unhealthy behaviour, regardless of the game. And again, this is just my opinion. Play any game however you like, whenever you like, but as with all things in life it should be accompanied by self moderation. People have died playing MMO’s because they don’t know when to stop, and this trend of marathon grinding in order to obtain a world first concerns me, as it encourages people to game like this, and whichever way you spin it that is not healthy behaviour.

I never claimed it was healthy, in fact my point is based on the idea that it isn't. Because if it isn't then you saying they shouldn't do beacuse of that is simply hypercritical beacuse you WILL and DO do things that are not healthy beacuse you enjoy them. They must enjoy what they did and given that they are not hurting any one else with there behaviour i don't understand at all your need to comment on it... even more so given the underlying hypocrisy of the statement.


Ironically, it appears you cannot perceive the difference between what you see as rude in my posts and your behaviour. I apologise for having caused you so much anger, but you are right; I cannot see what it is that has caused your outrage, but as you seem unwilling to have a civilized debate without such belligerence then I’ll just leave you to your indignance. You seem to have a problem with me, I wonder if that is caused by this thread alone, but I shan't let it worry me.
Again, I apologise for the distress this thread has clearly caused you, but I stand by my opinion that it indicates an unhealthy obsession.

You show a profound lack of respect for the choices other people make. You use the same logic that people use to propagate homophobia and leads to things like prop 8 passing. You make presumptions about me and other people and come in this thread implying that these people are stupid and they should be more like you beacuse in your view what they choice to do for fun is unhealthy? and you're surprised that i can get angry over it? you're surprised that i don't feel the need to be polite with you? There is no way to have a civil debate, there is no way to have a debate AT ALL, with some one who dose not realise that there being hypercritical.

Oh and nice to see you still scrambling for that angle to try and dismiss me and my points as overtly reactionary beacuse you've hit some kind of nerve... but while i'm hear let me ask what unhealthy obsession would you be referring to?


I don't care that it's not something that you would want to do beacuse it's not something i would want to do

Ii've not played WoW in maybe a year, my highest character was 69 and i was never an active raider... if i could remember i could probably count the big raids i've done on one had. The only other mmos i've played since have been a bit of eve and a bit of WAR. I do spend a lot of my free time play games but the only thing that has caused me to stay up 3 days in a row is trying to get uni work finished for a deadline... well that.. and being on a small "tour" with my old band and meeting an insane but amamzing girl... i can tell you those few days where by far far far more unhealthy for me than anything those wow players did but i'm oddly sure you'd approve beacuse it's an activity you will no doubt think was "worth it"...

So you clearly have no idea what the hell is going on here. Your arguing based on your assumption that i must be obsessed with WoW to find your comments distasteful. Which again shows a lack of understanding and a utter lack of respect for me my view point or any one who disagrees with you.

The grammar police would have a field day here. ;)

dear good god i really do have to put "i'm dyslexic" in my sig :P

[Squidbot]

As well as entirely ignoring many of the things I stated in my response to you, including my reasoning as to why I have concerns regarding the behaviour, you have taken my words and twisted them to suit your own agenda. I clearly pointed out why I feel that this approach to gaming is detrimental, and yet this now has me in the same category as homophobes? That is an interesting leap of logic, to say the least.
Nowhere in the thread have I implied that anyone is stupid, neither have I implied that anyone should be more like me. You seem to be very keen to put words into my mouth. By ranting in the fashion that you are, and by attaching views to me that I have never made you are painting yourself in the way you seem determined to view me.

ya, thanks for reading my post.
I read your post, I think you need to read mine again, where did I say that you have an unhealthy obsession? Where did I even mention you playing WoW for that matter?


I’ve stated my point on this, you chose to twist it however you like, I’m done discussing it with you, but thanks for accepting my apology so graciously.

[Ink Asylum]

Guys! They're tearing us apart! This is just what the WoW-obsessed, socially inept, raid-grinding losers want!

[Squidbot]

Wow, nice ninja edit, Hotcod.

[roboninja]

While yes, these guys can do whatever the fuck they want, the sheer arrogance of them calling out Blizzard for not catering to their whims reeks of megalomania.

And HotCod, calm the fuck down and stop accusing people of being homophobic just because they laugh at someone that plays an MMO for 3-4 days straight.

[Mr. Murphy]

dear good god i really do have to put "i'm dyslexic" in my sig :P

Dyslexia prevents you from using the shift key?

You're acting like he attacked you, which he never did. Chill out, we're all friends here.

It's funny, most of us talk to our friends the way the South Park kids do, calling each other names and making fun of the funny, sometimes stupid things we do. But when you put those same conversations into text, without the tone of voice and body language to soften it, it's easy to get offended.

Just pretend you're sitting on your living room couch having a conversation about games. Nobody is attacking you, buddy.

Also, bringing out the homophobia and whatnot is about as classy as a Godwin.

[Ancalagon]

Boy collapses after playing WoW for 24 hours straight (http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article5173755.ece)

Now, I dont care whether he masturbated for 24 hours straight, or played D&D for 24 hours straight, or worked out at the gym for 24 hours straight, or whatever. Point is, doing something obsessively like that is unhealthy. WoW just happens to be more addiction inspiring than any other game, something I cant understand.

But anyway, even if someone played a game I actually enjoy, like Fallout 3, for 24 hours straight, I'd still say hes a moron. Heck, when I played Baldurs Gate 2 to the exclusion of all else (multiple times), I felt like a moron. I dont want to do that! I want to do other things, to not be obsessed.

[QueQueg]

Some people just love to fight. Fight fight fight. Every conversation has to be a flame-war.

Chill out Hotcod, Squid wasn't attacking you, just stating an opinion that you disagree with.

[Hotcod]

Wow, nice ninja edit, Hotcod.

how can i ninja edit given all my edits took place before you made your post simply to make my point more clear beacuse i realised i was rambling?

As well as entirely ignoring many of the things I stated in my response to you, including my reasoning as to why I have concerns regarding the behaviour, you have taken my words and twisted them to suit your own agenda. I clearly pointed out why I feel that this approach to gaming is detrimental, and yet this now has me in the same category as homophobes? That is an interesting leap of logic, to say the least.
Nowhere in the thread have I implied that anyone is stupid, neither have I implied that anyone should be more like me. You seem to be very keen to put words into my mouth. By ranting in the fashion that you are, and by attaching views to me that I have never made you are painting yourself in the way you seem determined to view me.

And this is why it's pointless to debate with some who can't see there being hypercritical. You've still not addressed the point I'm trying to make. Simple fact is that i'm not twisting your words i'm just trying to get you very hard to see that you and every one else in this thread will and dose do things that are amazingly unhealthy for them beacuse they enjoy them. Yet you insist on using this idea that it's unhealthy to say that doing it in your view is wrong. You are being selective in your application of your logic to imply that what these people do isn't worth the unhealthy aspects that come with it. When clearly it's up to them.


I read your post, I think you need to read mine again, where did I say that you have an unhealthy obsession? Where did I even mention you playing WoW for that matter?

That was my mistake actually, i apologise i read one of your points as implying that me reaction to your post must indicate an unhealthy obsession.


I’ve stated my point on this, you chose to twist it however you like, I’m done discussing it with you, but thanks for accepting my apology so graciously.

No your refusing to see the hypocritical view you have... the main reason i didn't brother trying to engage you in a real debat in the first place is beacuse i knew that it would be this pointless.

Dyslexia prevents you from using the shift key?

No, but if you think forgetting to use the shift key some times is the biggest grammatical problem in my posts then you may be in as much trouble as me.


You're acting like he attacked you, which he never did. Chill out, we're all friends here.

It's funny, most of us talk to our friends the way the South Park kids do, calling each other names and making fun of the funny, sometimes stupid things we do. But when you put those same conversations into text, without the tone of voice and body language to soften it, it's easy to get offended.

Just pretend you're sitting on your living room couch having a conversation about games. Nobody is attacking you, buddy.

Also, bringing out the homophobia and whatnot is about as classy as a Godwin.

While yes, these guys can do whatever the fuck they want, the sheer arrogance of them calling out Blizzard for not catering to their whims reeks of megalomania.

And HotCod, calm the fuck down and stop accusing people of being homophobic just because they laugh at someone that plays an MMO for 3-4 days straight.

it's honestly sad that people seem unwilling to accept that some one can get truly indigent based purely on a point of printable. If you'll go back i look i made a post attack every one who made points like he and he replies to it with a logic and attitude that really deeply gets on my nerves simply for being the purely hypercritical self justification crap that it clearly is.

yes, i talk about homophobia not because i think his homophobic or think his distaste for those kind of WoW players is on the same level but beacuse he uses the same false logic to justify his views.

huge rambling post i know and i'm probably as done with this thread as any one else... i just hope that you can all look at your life's and see things that you felt where enjoyable enough to do despite the risks involved or how unhealthy they may have bee and that no matter how much you may not be able to understand some one else's choice in that regard that they have as much right to there choice as you do to yours.

I know some one who dose free climbing rather a lot. She knows that there are huge risks involved and i think we can all agree that she's far more likely to end up very very very hurt or even dead than some one playing wow for 3 days... in fact she's broken a few bones doing this and other things... so will you all sit there and tell her that she's obsessive and unhealthy? given that she will freely admit to being rather addicted to the adrenalin rush and you would find it very hard to stop her going away for a weekend of climbing every month or so... or is that it's a sport and outside make it more acceptable?

[Hotcod]

Some people just love to fight. Fight fight fight. Every conversation has to be a flame-war.

Chill out Hotcod, Squid wasn't attacking you, just stating an opinion that you disagree with.

i forgot to add this to my post... but editing might get squid mad. I want to make it clear i never took it as him attacking me or in fact any one i know... i just have a honest to god hatred of that kind of hypercritical logic... he just happened to be the first one to post it in resonance to the all out attack i'd made against the majority of posters in this thread.

I'm not trying to hide the fact that i've been angry and attacked people in a rather flamethrower like fashion... i just happen to think the way some people have reacted to the subject and arguments involved warrant it.

edit: in fact squid is probably one of the reasonable people in the thread, his posts uses a logic that really really dose get to me but he wasn't showing the outright hatred of some of the people in this thread... who i really should have be directing most of my venom at. So in that respect i'm sorry for just how hostile i was with him even if i do stand by my points

[Ancalagon]

I know some one who dose free climbing rather a lot. She knows that there are huge risks involved and i think we can all agree that she's far more likely to end up very very very hurt or even dead than some one playing wow for 3 days... in fact she's broken a few bones doing this and other things... so will you all sit there and tell her that she's obsessive and unhealthy? given that she will freely admit to being rather addicted to the adrenalin rush and you would find it very hard to stop her going away for a weekend of climbing every month or so... or is that it's a sport and outside make it more acceptable?

She goes climbing like once a month? Does she climb for 24 hours straight, or does she climb for like a few hours and then rest and eat, and maybe sleep, and then climb again?

Thats the difference - its not what you do, its how much time you do it.

heck, did you miss when Squidbot said he plays WoW and does raids himself? Unless I misunderstood, he doesnt have a problem with WoW, he has a problem with spending vast amounts of time playing it.

[Xydarc]

So, apparently speed levelling a guild to 80 and defeating every boss in the expansion in less than three days is healthy behaviour, and I'm a bad person for believing otherwise. Screw sleeping patterns, fresh air, social interaction. Staying glued to your new game for three days is fine!
How many of us here on CoG took an extra day off for [insert game here]'s release? How many of us here on CoG look forward to vacations and holidays that will allow us to spend extra time with [insert game here]? How is that any different?

[ShortRound]

I know some one who dose free climbing rather a lot. She knows that there are huge risks involved and i think we can all agree that she's far more likely to end up very very very hurt or even dead than some one playing wow for 3 days... in fact she's broken a few bones doing this and other things... so will you all sit there and tell her that she's obsessive and unhealthy? given that she will freely admit to being rather addicted to the adrenalin rush and you would find it very hard to stop her going away for a weekend of climbing every month or so... or is that it's a sport and outside make it more acceptable?

And here you hit the nail on the head. Your Friend makes conscious decision. And the point that Squid and some others have been trying to make is maybe people underestimate the danger of this type of "Hardcore" gaming. People have died from it. Debates have started about it and the negative stories are starting to get media coverage:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/11/addicted_to_warcraft.html

While this will help get the message out about the dangers, media attention can lead to knee-jurk goverment censorship and control.

[Ink Asylum]

How many of us here on CoG took an extra day off for [insert game here]'s release? How many of us here on CoG look forward to vacations and holidays that will allow us to spend extra time with [insert game here]? How is that any different?

Do you know what the schedule of a hardcore raiding guild is like? It's no way comparable to taking a day off to play a new game. It is not an exaggeration to call it a second job.

[J Arcane]

Dyslexia prevents you from using the shift key?

I'm dyslexic. I still manage to write clearly, coherently, and within some semblance of reasonable grammatic correctness.

Some people however, just use it as an excuse to be lazy, illiterate assholes, and I find such behavior personally offensive, because it makes the rest of us look bad.

[Mr. Murphy]

I'm dyslexic. I still manage to write clearly, coherently, and within some semblance of reasonable grammatic correctness.

Some people however, just use it as an excuse to be lazy, illiterate assholes, and I find such behavior personally offensive, because it makes the rest of us look bad.

That's what I was getting at. It's like claiming you have Asperger's just so you can be an ass on the internet. I think it's ignorant.

[Ink Asylum]

A bear ate my parents!

[Hotcod]

I'm dyslexic. I still manage to write clearly, coherently, and within some semblance of reasonable grammatic correctness.

Some people however, just use it as an excuse to be lazy, illiterate assholes, and I find such behavior personally offensive, because it makes the rest of us look bad.

I make no qualms that my writing style is rather lazy and uninformed and rambling beacuse this is the internet and i don't care. How ever the vast majority of the time what people are getting at is the problems in my gramma is down to me picking the wrong word (writing or from the spell check) in that i can often get things like your and you're mixed up with out being able to see it when i read back over my stuff. And that is just the start.

You can bitch at me all you like but i've been attacked a number of times on this forum alone for my spelling or simple grammatical errors by people who don't agree with me and use those things as an excuse to devalue or derail a thread.

You can dislike my writing style all you like but the vast majority of what gets jumped on as grammatical errors are things out of my control. You can tell me i'm just lazy and using it as an excuse all you like and while i have no way of telling how badly you suffer from it all i can relate to you is the last results of my educational statement. I have a reading comprehension that is better than 95% of adults (even with my inability to sound out words i've never heard before) with a writing age of around a 10 year old. I killed my self during school trying to do better and it didn't help me much... which may explain why i'm so free with my writing style in throw away internet posts but it also means that even at my best with every effort i can put in to it some fucker somewhere will bitch at me for spelling a word wrong or picking the wrong one out of a spell check or getting my grammer mixed up.

[Hotcod]

She goes climbing like once a month? Does she climb for 24 hours straight, or does she climb for like a few hours and then rest and eat, and maybe sleep, and then climb again?

Thats the difference - its not what you do, its how much time you do it.

heck, did you miss when Squidbot said he plays WoW and does raids himself? Unless I misunderstood, he doesnt have a problem with WoW, he has a problem with spending vast amounts of time playing it.

oh so its how much time you do it? that makes perfect sense... people involve them selfs in a 3 day event that happens maybe once a year and they are obsessive and awful? with major projects from uni i can end up doing the same thing maybe 2 or 3 times a year... my uni course must be vastly unhealthy for me! oh right, i can make a choice about the relative risk vs reward of my own activities beacuse i'm a person and can think for my self!

Do you know that each year at lest 1 or 2 people die during highschool American football games? (there's only been one year in the last 20 that no one hasn't) But by your logic because they at no point played football for 3 days "straight" it's not a risky or (for some) unhealthy thing to be doing?

makes sense to me!

And yes i know i'm pushing your logic to the point it brakes with unreasonable assumptions but you are again selectively applying your logic to suppourt your views.

I'm not arguing that what they did can be good for them... just that very little people do is ever really good for them and that people make there own choices about if a unhealthy activity is worth the enjoyment they get from it. You and other's think the raiding isn't worth it... which is perfectly fine and your view to have... but to selectivity apply the logic that it's "unhealthy" to validate your view is hugely hypercritical

[Ink Asylum]

oh so its how much time you do it? that makes perfect sense... people involve them selfs in a 3 day event that happens maybe once a year and they are obsessive and awful? with major projects from uni i can end up doing the same thing maybe 2 or 3 times a year... my uni course must be vastly unhealthy for me! oh right, i can make a choice about the relative risk vs reward of my own activities beacuse i'm a person and can think for my self!

You don't get in one of those guilds just to play for 3 days out of a year. It literally is like a second job for them.

[Hotcod]

And here you hit the nail on the head. Your Friend makes conscious decision. And the point that Squid and some others have been trying to make is maybe people underestimate the danger of this type of "Hardcore" gaming. People have died from it. Debates have started about it and the negative stories are starting to get media coverage:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/technology/2008/11/addicted_to_warcraft.html

While this will help get the message out about the dangers, media attention can lead to knee-jurk goverment censorship and control.

no the point squid and other have been making is that they shouldn't do it beacuse it's unhealthy. To talk about informed choices and as such risk vs reward they would have to accept that there main argument has been the selective applying of there own logic to justify there views that so annoyed me in the first place.

Yes i think every one should make informed choices about what they are doing but even knowing all the risks how many people drink smoke take drugs drive cars play games do dangerous sports go on planes step out side there own front door? a hell of a lot so even if we could be sure ever WoW player knew the direct risks of playing for extended intensive periods events like this would still take place.

Again, as far as i know more people died by simply of playing high school American football since WoW has come out than have died full stop from the kind of truly obsessive game playing that makes a person forget to eat or drink.

The truth is i very much doubt that every member of that raid guild was sat at the computer for 68 hours straight with out eating or drinking in the very obsessive way that causes the real problems for players... if they had been then a few of them would have been dead. Lots of people in this thread are insisting on a taring a rear event with a few isolated cases to make these people look crazy or such.

I don't understand them, i really really don't, i don't get why some one would really want to do what they did but it's there life and if they enjoy it then making there choice it up to them and i can't sit here and judge it with out being hypercritical

[Hotcod]

You don't get in one of those guilds just to play for 3 days out of a year. It literally is like a second job for them.

and that chances the point how? As far as i can tell what people have been saying is that the playing for 3 days straight (or any extended and intensive time) is what is vastly risky and unhealthy not the playing lots in the free time. You may not understand or agree with them playing the game like a 2nd job (i don't) but you can't claim it's any more unhealthy than how a heck of a lot of people live there lives... in different ways at lest.

[Hotcod]

you know what? i'm starting to feel like what his face from the childs play thread... so either i've missed a huge grate hole in my logic (always a possibility) or no one wants to stick there neck out and agree with the frankly crazy ranting man (i have been rather crazy and ranting today) either way taking on a whole thread load of people on my own will make me even more crazy than i started out....

So... what ever... i'm clearly wrong and awful and as such must bow before the judgemental judgement of my peers... you win. goodnight.

[Ancalagon]

And yes i know i'm pushing your logic to the point it brakes with unreasonable assumptions but you are again selectively applying your logic to suppourt your views.

Yes, you are pushing the logic till it breaks. And no, I havent selectively applied my logic. Yes, people die from playing football, whoop te do, as you say its their choice, and the risk is managed by having medics on the field and wearing protective clothing, and having rules.

As for the 3 day straight thing.... its 3 days straight of WoW then its at least 8 hours a day every day after that. Or more. Especially on weekends. Its not just 3 days straight then nothing for a year. Thats what makes it unhealthy.

As always, you ignore the point, because you know you cant argue against it. Its not WHAT they do, its HOW MUCH they do it. Tell me its okay to do anything 8-12 hours a day every day not even stopping for weekends (even playing more on weekends). If someone spent that much time working, it would still be unhealthy.

But yeah, I know you arent listening, and this isnt making sense to you, because you just want to defend how much you like to play WoW. I truly dont care. I'm so happy I dont have anything that absorbs that much of my time, be it WoW or anything else. But just because you think you are justified in spending your life playing WoW, dont get pissy when people tell you they dont agree.

[Ink Asylum]

No one is directly telling them what they should or should not do, nor are we trying to legislate away their behavior. That does not mean we cannot have and express the opinion that what they are doing is emotionally, socially, and mentally unhealthy behavior even if it is or isn't physically unhealthy. Nor does it make us hypocrites to express that opinion just because we also have games as a hobby and talk about them on a message board.

Having model trains as a hobby is wonderful. Spending nearly every waking hour you don't spend at work down in your basement building elaborate model trains is unhealthy. Even if I occasionally break out my old Lionel set and talk about it online I'm not a hypocrite for saying so. And yes, if you are in one of these big guilds chances are you also spend much much more than just one three day period playing the game.

[Shrinn]

Let's ignore this argument about social problems and crap like that. That's up to the individual to decide what to do with their time and none of us have a right to tell them how to handle it.

Let's talk about what this does for the WoW endgame.

Easy encounters leads to there not being any sort of pie in the sky to constantly reach for.

Once you've accomplished absolutely everything in a game, the urge to play it goes down drastically. I know that once I 100%'d TWEWY, as much as I absolutely adored the game, I just had no urge to play through again.

So if the content is accessible to everyone very easily that leads to the game being "completed" for a lot more people a lot easier. That leads to people becoming bored with the game a lot earlier. That leads to people quitting much more frequently. I wonder if this was a bad move on Blizzard's part.

[Ink Asylum]

"Easy" is a relative term.

Easy for hardcore raiding guilds that have been doing world-firsts since the WoW Beta and probably have vast MMO experience from other games as well?

Or easy for the 9.9 million other players?

I really would like to know what percentage of the game's players fall into the category of people that would find end game content like un-nerfed 25 man raids at all "easy". Then think about what percentage of players would find content at the difficulty level that a hard-core world-first raiding group would consider "average to hard" inaccessible to them forever or until it's heavily nerfed.

The ideal solution is to tier dungeons, which Blizzard seems to be doing with greater frequency. Heroic mode, setting up 5 man and 10 man versions of dungeons, nerfing dungeons after a certain period of time. But that takes time and paid man hours to rebalance a dungeon for multiple levels. When your install base is 10 million plus why wouldn't you target most of your resources towards making content for the segment of the game that pays you the bulk of your profits? As it stands now, hardcore players get catered to in games like this to a degree that is much more than their proportion of the player-base would normally demand. Yet they continue to whine.

If they want harder content then they should be the ones to wait until Blizzard can rebalance the dungeons and put out "Ultra-Heroic-Lose-Your-Girlfriend-And-Job" mode.

[Shrinn]

"Easy" is a relative term.

Easy for hardcore raiding guilds that have been doing world-firsts since the WoW Beta and probably have vast MMO experience from other games as well?

Or easy for the 9.9 million other players?


I've been through my fair share of raids, and I've been through them with my fair share of shitty people. If these WoTLK raids are even easier than BC raids I feel like I'd be able to group through them with my eyes closed. Coupled with the claims* that every class is vastly higher dps/threat/heals, I can see this finishing up fast for a lot of people.

By the time the Sunwell instances opened up on my server, Magtheridon-US, top guilds were having 5 or so people lead pug runs(as in other 20 guys are pugs) through The Eye and SSC, and they were supposedly clearing BT with some pugs. Yea, that's after some instance nerfs, but still.

*I quit, so I haven't experienced the WOTLK changes.

Edit:


If they want harder content then they should be the ones to wait until Blizzard can rebalance the dungeons and put out "Ultra-Heroic-Lose-Your-Girlfriend-And-Job" mode.

That does sound like it would fix their problem, but then you have to remember that just having bosses one shot your tanks and calling it difficult isn't any fun. It has to be perplexing and require strategy.

[Ink Asylum]

I've been through my fair share of raids, and I've been through them with my fair share of shitty people. If these WoTLK raids are even easier than BC raids I feel like I'd be able to group through them with my eyes closed. Coupled with the claims* that every class is vastly higher dps/threat/heals, I can see this finishing up fast for a lot of people.

By the time the Sunwell instances opened up on my server, Magtheridon-US, top guilds were having 5 or so people lead pug runs(as in other 20 guys are pugs) through The Eye and SSC, and they were supposedly clearing BT with some pugs. Yea, that's after some instance nerfs, but still.

I'd suggest that you're still talking about a small percentage of players that are fairly skilled at raiding and end game. For the past year or two I've been part of the largest US guild, Alea Iacta Est, run by the guys who do the Instance podcast. With over 3000 members it's probably the clearest cross-section of the WoW population you'll get. Mostly casual with a core of high-end players. Enough high-enders to make at least one talented weekly 25 man raid group to take on pre-nerf dungeons, and multiple 10-mans. You may have found BC raids easy, but outside of the hardcore the vast majority of our guild wouldn't be able to do them until the 3.0 nerf.

If we get a good chunk of our guild up to 80 before the dungeons are nerfed and are able to clear them in a similar fashion as we are now able to do the post-3.0-BC dungeons I'll agree that things have been dumbed down.

I just hesitate to consider anything a top-end guild does as indicative of the experience the vast, vast majority of WoW players can expect. These groups are well oiled machines and include players who have been playing MMOs for over a decade and WoW since Beta.

[roboninja]

I just hesitate to consider anything a top-end guild does as indicative of the experience the vast, vast majority of WoW players can expect. These groups are well oiled machines and include players who have been playing MMOs for over a decade and WoW since Beta.

I would echo this. I have played WoW since launch, but would consider myself a casual player. I do have 3 (nearly 4) characters at level 70, but the highest level dugeons I have seen in vanilla and TBC are UBRS and Coilfang respectively. I simply do not make schedules around a video game (which did not help my attendance to TF2 nights either). That is my choice. I know that this precludes me from seeing some of these great instances, which is why I like the eventual nerfs. Hell, I did not even see Coilfang until the 3.0 patch, and me and two friends could 3-man it.

[Blue]

I would echo this. I have played WoW since launch, but would consider myself a casual player. I do have 3 (nearly 4) characters at level 70, but the highest level dugeons I have seen in vanilla and TBC are UBRS and Coilfang respectively. I simply do not make schedules around a video game (which did not help my attendance to TF2 nights either). That is my choice. I know that this precludes me from seeing some of these great instances, which is why I like the eventual nerfs. Hell, I did not even see Coilfang until the 3.0 patch, and me and two friends could 3-man it.

By Coilfang do you mean Steamvault, Slave Pens, etc. or are you talking taking on the Lady herself? Isn't some of Coilfang doable around level 63 or so? Wouldn't necessarily call that end-game at all.

Not that it matters I suppose. I made it to Molten Core once in vanilla and then Spire (can't remember the one up from MC) once. In BC I managed Kara and Gruul/Mag. Saw Hyjal and ZA once. I enjoyed doing new content just to see the encounters and the inside of the places (much like exploring a new zone), but outside of that I can't really be bothered to do the same raid over and over and over again week in and week out. Not my bag in the slightest.

So while I guess it's good for them if they get enjoyment out of that I just can't figure out why you'd want to. Then again, my wife doesn't understand my love of Star Wars so to each their own.

[roboninja]

By Coilfang do you mean Steamvault, Slave Pens, etc. or are you talking taking on the Lady herself? Isn't some of Coilfang doable around level 63 or so? Wouldn't necessarily call that end-game at all.


Yeah, I think you are right, Coilfang is the whole place. I guess it was Steamvaults? It is one of the dungeon dailies to kill the Coilfang Myrmidons, and they are in there. Killed the large Naga at the end that kept trying to use the vats we had to destroy. I am not familiar with all the names and instances, for abvious reasons :) I am both a WoW vet and a complete noob.

[Ink Asylum]

That's Steamvaults, which is the hardest of the 5-mans in Coilfang, I believe.

Heh. Nothing noobish about forgetting the names in WoW. There's so damn many of them I think most of us would fail a test in basic Azerothian geography.

[court12b]

I'm just wondering what Blizz is playing at. I seem to recall that upon release of TBC Gruul was a stone cold motherfucker that people had to throw all sorts of wackiness at for a MONTH to kill. (and Magtheradon was no slouch either)

so whats the deal? how many 20 man bosses are there in wotlk?

[RandoM51]

What does semi-pro mean in the context of WoW gaming? Are they sponsored? Are there official competitions for WoW Raid gameplay?

[ShivaX]

I'm just wondering what Blizz is playing at. I seem to recall that upon release of TBC Gruul was a stone cold motherfucker that people had to throw all sorts of wackiness at for a MONTH to kill. (and Magtheradon was no slouch either)

so whats the deal? how many 20 man bosses are there in wotlk?

Well Naxx alone has a shitload. 4 wings with I think 3 bosses each, plus the last two. So thats 14 right there.

I remember Gruul being simply insane as well. It was too much, but at least it felt like an accomplishment to beat him if you did. His nerfed version was still fairly tough and required some farming or crafting to beat (dps race + well geared tank). Noone was taking down all of SSC and TK within the first week though. Kael and Vashj were regarded as badass motherfuckers until the end. They eventually got nerfed a few times, but for the majority of the time killing them was a big deal.

Sounds like this time around everything is a cakewalk and not a challenge. The Naxx stuff was going to be beat pretty easy for these people since they've done it all before (and when it was a lot harder). I'm not even sure what else there is since I haven't really followed the game much, but whatever it was should have required some farming and experimentation to beat.

What does semi-pro mean in the context of WoW gaming? Are they sponsored? Are there official competitions for WoW Raid gameplay?

I forget what the deal is, but they are sponsored. From what I gathered all they really got was all their computers and whatnot for free, but I could be wrong there.

[Crowe]

Just head over to their official websites to see who they are sponsored by. There are a fair few sponsors, I believe SK is sponsored by adidas of all companies.