120hz for Gaming

[Mdot]

I'm getting tempted to buy a new TV and one of the major issues I'm facing is the benefit of 120hz for gaming. I'm not too big of a fan of the feature for regular TV viewing, but does anybody have experience with it in terms of console gaming? The difference in price is still significant and saving a couple hundred dollars would be nice, but if it's worth it, I'd take the plunge and drop the extra coin. Thoughts?

And just for reference, I've been looking at these two Samsung:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102202

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16889102208

(I know the contrast ratio is better on the 2nd model, but the PQ is so good on both of them to begin with that I can deal with the trade-off if the price diff is significant.)

[AgtFox]

120Hz should be as major a difference in gaming as you see in movies and television. Go to any electronics store and watch a 60Hz and 120Hz next to each other and you'll see the vast difference. Gaming should see the same sort of difference.

Even though it is more expensive, a 120Hz one will make everything look smoother. Although those with 60Hz would like theirs as well until they see them next to each other, then they'll wish they would have gotten a 120Hz.

[hunterx280]

I've seen some 120hz TVs and in movies it made it look good but I wonder how well it would work in games. Most consoles are maxed at 60 fps or 60hz, right? So the frames it is adding is just an interpolated set of frames. I'm almost wondering if the image post-processing to produce those interpolated frames could actually cause lag. Anyone else know more about this?

[Norse]

I'm not sure 120hz is such a big deal. I'd recommend you see the TV set in real life before making your choice. 120hz is a nice feature to put on the box, but IMHO there's far more important specs to look for. As far as I know even the new 120hz Samsungs do have some input lag problems, don't which models though.

Here's a nice article from Cnet: Six things you need to know
about 120Hz LCD TVs (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6792632-1.html)

So, is it worth paying extra for a 120Hz model now? If you can afford it, I'd say go for it, so long as you get a model that does anti-judder well--and offers good picture quality based on the fundamentals: decent black levels, color saturation, color accuracy, and resolution. Ultimately, reducing judder, not motion blur, is the real game-changer here. Get a demo yourself. Maybe you'll see what I mean.

[Mdot]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I've seen both sets in the stores and they both look great. I have yet to see a console hooked up to a 120hz set yet, which is what I'm really interested in.

Hunterx, I was under that impression as well, with the 60fps.

[Khrymsyn]

Even though it is more expensive, a 120Hz one will make everything look smoother. Although those with 60Hz would like theirs as well until they see them next to each other, then they'll wish they would have gotten a 120Hz.


You have to be very careful when referring to 120Hz. Most people when referring to 120Hz are actually referring to AMP (Auto-Motion-Plus) or similar feature (the smoothing that AgtFox is referring to). They are NOT the same thing.


120Hz is the refresh rate in which the screen updates it's information. 120 frames per second. obviously better than 60 frames per second. In theory, this is done to reduce motion blur. For instance, lets say you were playing a game that runs at 30 frames per second. A 60Hz TV would display 2 frames of information per frame of game information, then display another 2 frames 1/60th of a second later. A 120Hz TV would display 4 frames of information per frame of game information, then display the next 4 1/120th of a second later. This would make it appear to have less "blur" to it, as the scene is changing almost twice as fast.
This is good for gaming. Noticable? Not always.

AMP is a "smoothing" technology that is often advertised right along 120Hz. Film is recorded at 24fps. On a standard 60Hz TV, it does what's called "3:2" pulldown to display this video. That means for each Frame of Movie information, the TV displays either 3, or 2 frames... so you're basically watching a movie like : frame 1,1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5,5,5,6,6,7,7,7,8,8
On a 120Hz TV, it does "5:5" pulldown. For each frame of movie, the TV displays 5 frames... so you're watching 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3,3,4,4,4,4,4
Since this is an even number, it shows more of a TRUE 24 frames per second, more closely matching the source material. When AMP is turned on, what it does is try to figure out during those 5 frames, what the next one is going to look like... so instead of 1,1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,2, what you get is more of a 1a,1b,1c,1d,1e,2a,2b,2c,2d,2e which looks a lot "smoother" to the naked eye, but can also introduce a "soap opera" look to it, as we aren't used to seeing movies/video in that fashion.

AMP is NOT generally good for video gaming, as the extra processing power the TV needs to figure out what the next frame is, is processing power your TV is NOT using to make sure you are playing Lag Free. Even if you buy a TV with AMP, for the best game playing experience will generally be with that feature turned off and the TV in a "game" or "PC" mode.

So... the real question is... is the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz justify the cost of purchasing the AMP system which will not be used? Honestly, I don't believe so.

However, I will say that if you're watching sports, the AMP is absolutely worth it. Hockey and football look all creamy smooth =)


Also, I'm not sure about the 40", but if you get the 650 of a 46", to get the best lag free gaming, it's a good idea to hook up HDMI to HDMI2, and rename the port PC. Completely (or nearly so) removes all input lag into that port. It also works if you connect via VGA.

[Nerdious]

I have a friend who bought a 120hz Visio recently. The picture gets amazing clarity and colors but, when you are gaming there is a lot of ghosting and what looks like distortion around moving parts.

Football though, looks amazing.

[Norse]

When we are talking about blur, isn't the set's response time more important than the refresh rate, or are they linked?

120hz has been introduced to combat the stuttering during video playback. Video is recorded at 24fps and with 60hz sets this doesn't add up, but with 120hz it does (24*5=120). I don't think this stuttering is present with video games, since both 30fps and 60fps adds up well with the 60hz refresh rate in normal TV sets.

I recently bought a new 46" set from Sony and while it doesn't have 120hz, it does have a feature called 24p True Cinema, which apparently plays video content at 24hz. I hardly notice any blur, neither when playing games or watching video.

BTW, if you watch alot of SD content you should watch how the set handle SD before deciding. I've seen sets that are awesome @HD, but terrible @SD.

[Mdot]

Khrymsyn, thanks for the informative post. That explained things extremely well.

[cawblen]

wow Khrymsyn, that was extremely informative indeed...thank you for sharing!