Oh Joy: LBP Levels Being Deleted En Masse For Infringement

[DoctorFinger]

The biggest selling point of Sony and Media Molecule's Little Big Planet was the ability to create your own level and share it with the world. Unfortunately the definition of 'your own' is causing some problems, as tons of LBP levels are being deleted (aka 'Moderated') right off the servers.

The problem isn't really offensive content, so much as copyrighted content. Levels which infringe on existing intellectual properties are being slashed from the game in large numbers. That famous 'God of War' level? Gone. Dozens of levels paying tribute to Mario, Sonic and Zelda? Gone. That heartfelt recreation of some FFVII-Buffy slash fiction? Goneski. Not removed from the index, or not listed, but actually deleted, permanently.

And it's not actually limited to published levels either. One user circulated a small guide on how to save and resubmit your level, but apparently even the offline copy of an infringing level can be 'moderated.' Apparently one level as deleted because it had a title of 'Failure to Launch', which Sony decided can only refer to the recent romantic comedy, and not a phrase for failure that's been around for half a century or more.

I understand Sony's need - not desire, but need - to prevent infringing works from making their way onto the service. A full recreation of a Super Mario World level isn't really an original work after all. But some of these deletions are just draconian. Media Molecule promises to take steps to better explain why levels are being deleted, but they make no apologies for deleting content they feel is infringing.

Source - Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/5081159/lbp-levels-getting-moderated-out-of-existence).

[violent]

People are lawsuit happy. One of the reasons we can't have nice things.

[Krispy]

Yeah, and everyone shit on Microsoft when they said this was a can of worms not worth opening.

[violent]

Yeah, and everyone shit on Microsoft when they said this was a can of worms not worth opening.

Jumping the gun a little aren't we?

[Iron Past]

This is a great idea/title that keeps hitting these roadbumps. Hope it all gets worked out.

[LongStepMantis]

Ouch. Just when it was looking really appealing too. :(

[Norse]

Are anybody really surprised? User generated content is a nightmare.

[Purple Santa]

People are lawsuit happy. One of the reasons we can't have nice things.

I'm not sure if it's so much a lawsuit as it being a nuisance to handle all the requests from the lawyers letters of the original copyright holder. I just wonder would that many really care? I mean God Of War? Isn't that Sony's own copyright?

This is sad since i've been reading about the awesome levels that have been created but haven't gotten a chance yet to play. Not the end of the world gameplay wise for me..and i'm thinking it's not a game ender for anyone else. I love these slow news days ;)

[violent]

Are anybody really surprised? User generated content is a nightmare.

See, I think user generated content is great. It's the bullshit regulations that slows everything down. People need to start realizing where the real problem lies instead of attempting to discredit the ones suffering from the same regulations.

[LongStepMantis]

I think one of the biggest kick-in-the-nuts is that people are having their levels deleted for say, using a God of War or Metal Gear Solid theme...when they themselves give you Kratos and Snake costumes. Classy.

[Krispy]

Jumping the gun a little aren't we?

No?

______________

[menage]

I was afraid this might happen. Sad that some people won't see in how the gaming community works and don't see that it's actually a love letter to their products, not a rip off. Also, the exact product can never be actually recreated, but I guess imagery is enough. Sad world we live in sometimes when we can't just have a little fun.

What I don't get is why the hell the GoW level get's scrapped (Sony IP), how shit on my PS3 get's deleted and why a title alone which might match something else also can't be used. A big fuck you to that.

I wonder if you can still parodize stuff. call it super Moria Sisters for example.

On the bright side. These parodies weren't going to remain fun forever. Still a bit of a blow for such a cool little game.

[violent]

No?

______________

Always full of well thought out responses. Good on you. Also, you asking me "no"?

I'm not sure if it's so much a lawsuit as it being a nuisance to handle all the requests from the lawyers letters of the original copyright holder. I just wonder would that many really care? I mean God Of War? Isn't that Sony's own copyright?

This is sad since i've been reading about the awesome levels that have been created but haven't gotten a chance yet to play. Not the end of the world gameplay wise for me..and i'm thinking it's not a game ender for anyone else. I love these slow news days ;)

I believe Sony does indeed own that copyright. If they do and it was their choice to stop it, that would be extremely ignorant. I'm also aware that it could simply be a minute infringement that shuts the whole thing down as well like a picture being used as a texture. Who knows. Truth is, I've always considered the idea of thousands of levels a bit overwhelming. Maybe this creates a time-framed release of the levels. It'll suck for the really great ones but then, if everything were kept, what are the chances we'd see all the great ones?

[rein]

Well... ...kind of sucks but I'm not sure this is Sony's fault. What is the alternative? Not allow user content? Review the content before it gets posted? Pay the lawsuits that are bound to come from the content? I very much prefer the ability to create and play original levels than to not have the option at all.

[KingGorilla]

And we have another year, or four, where the DMCA is without a fair use exception, good on ya Library of Congress.

[UnderHero5]

I'm torn on this. It sucks for the people who put a lot of time into these levels based on existing IP's, because some of them were very well thought out and must have taken a long time.

At the same time, there were tons of levels which were only popular because they were based on an IP. All the Mario ones, for example. Most were terrible, looked like shit, and were completely unimaginative recreations of Mario levels. I also played one that was a recreation of a MegaMan level... which played like shit. They aren't creative levels. They aren't fun to play... they only get hits because people are fans of the original games and want to say "oh neat, I know this!".

Meanwhile there are thousands of truly creative, original levels that NEVER get played or make it to the "Cool Levels" pages, so they end up being a waste of time for the level creator, because no one even played them, or will bother to even try them because they don't say "Mario, MGS, MegaMan, Final Fantasy, God of War, or Ninja Warrior" in their titles. <-- Huge run on.

In a way, I think this is a good thing. Maybe some truly creative and original levels will get the plays and attention they deserve. If people want to play a recreation of Mario levels then they can go play Mario.
The great majority of the levels based on existing IP were shit. Some were really good (the GoW one, Gradius, and a few others), but the vast majority were crap (that can be said about most of the user made levels, at this point though. I don't think their ratings system works very well).

[menage]

text

I agree, it was fun the first time I saw it but mostly crap and only fun because it resembled something fun.

It's also pretty easy to keep something like the Gradius level. Just remove imagery which looks like it. It would still be brilliant.

[Krispy]

Always full of well thought out responses. Good on you. Also, you asking me "no"?

You must be the friendly one. ;)

I seem to recall this topic being brought up for Unreal Tournament 3, but I guess recalling that is jumping the gun? No need to get snarky about it.

[violent]

You must be the friendly one. ;)

I seem to recall this topic being brought up for Unreal Tournament 3, but I guess recalling that is jumping the gun?

I just wasn't sure where you were coming from. I don't usually make immediate connections between to separate consoles therefore sometimes an obvious remark may be lost on me. I tend to require a little more elaboration before I make my guesses. Must be this 9rd grade education of mine. Nothing personal.

[H.Bogard]

This is why this shit lives in PC land.

[JayVe]

Oh, fuck this noise.

Is Guitar Hero going to rip down all the songs that are recreations of someone else's music?

Is someone going to drop a copyright hammer on the creative artists that pay homage to games in the I Am 8-Bit show (http://www.iam8bit.net/)?

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:wXLx7gsIz2j1_M:http://www.hasenkamm.de/BoardBilder/8bit_Icons_small.jpg

[Xydarc]

Oh, fuck this noise.

Is Guitar Hero going to rip down all the songs that are recreations of someone else's music?

Yes. http://kotaku.com/5080120/as-expected-copyrighted-songs-are-disappearing-from-guitar-hero-world-tour

While I'm sad to see this, it's not unexpected. Most of the IP-infringing levels were junk, but the GoW and Mirror's Edge levels were good. I'm also confused about the GoW level being deleted.

[bapenguin]

Is Guitar Hero going to rip down all the songs that are recreations of someone else's music?

Yes, it's already happening.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3171201

In fact, even songs that are tributes to video games and such are being removed.

[mister slim]

Once people stop trying to build really blatant copies things will settle down a bit. I would guess that at this point MM's moderation people are a little overwhelmed.

[Widgetcraft]

Apparently one level as deleted because it had a title of 'Failure to Launch', which Sony decided can only refer to the recent romantic comedy, and not a phrase for failure that's been around for half a century or more.


Wow... yeah, I think I've just been turned off my upcoming PS3 purchase (which was mostly going to be for LBP). Look, if you're going to make a game based entirely around user generated content, and you're not willing to stand up for this kind of thing, then you need to have players host things on their own and not on your servers. There is no such option in place, and thus, LBP is rendered worthless.

Hell, I don't even get how they could justify taking down a God of War level, the God of War tileset was a fucking pre-order bonus.

[Chris_D]

This is why this shit lives in PC land.

You may be right...

Like others said, I guess a lot of the rip offs were trash, but I feel really bad for those that piled tons of energy and time into creating a really great level as a homage to their favourite game, just to have it deleted without warning. From what I've read, they may not have even had the chance to change the tileset or otherwise modify the level to meet EULA.

[Variable Gear]

Some words about things
Can I agree with you even if I've never played the game? If so, I do.

For the record the user-created Guitar Hero: World Tour songs based on existing IP are fucking amazing, for the most part. It's so fun to play "God Knows (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfQh20oeZxs)" and a bunch of Mega Man songs, including the Spark Mandrill theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQ8W5NBFv9Q&feature=related)...

Go get 'em while they last! :)

[alienmastermind]

Thank you Sony...You just wrote yourself a Dipswitch. :) :) :) :) :)

[Variable Gear]

In addition, it would appear that levels are being deleted (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/09/littlebigplanet-levels-being-deleted-with-no-warning-or-explanat/) en masse for no good reason (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=littlebigplanet&thread.id=116583&view=by_date_ascending&page=1).

I'm unsurprised that content was taken down due to IP infringement, but the time to panic is now. This seems to be quite widespread, and MM seems to be completely incapable of moderating their game. They aren't even capable of providing the reason why a level was edited or deleted. I was very interested in picking up a PS3, and LBP, but I'll wait until MM and Sony get their ducks in a row. I'm not going to put up with this kind of bullshit in a game so focused on player-created content. Fuck that.

Sources: Joystiq (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/11/09/littlebigplanet-levels-being-deleted-with-no-warning-or-explanat/), PlayStation.com Forums (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=littlebigplanet&thread.id=116583&view=by_date_ascending&page=1)

[Ondo]

Well... ...kind of sucks but I'm not sure this is Sony's fault. What is the alternative?
Most similar services, like YouTube, seem to allow everything, and then pull anything if a copyright owner complains. I guess it's possible that's all Sony is doing, but it looks like they're pulling things preemptively, which is very unusual.

[Telefrog]

Why are people surprised by this?

[Variable Gear]

Why are people surprised by this?
I don't think people are surprised that content was removed for copyright infringement. However, I think people are pissed that content is being removed without any explanation. It's even worse when there was nothing objectionable found in a great number of the moderated levels. To put it another way, MM and Sony do not have the talent or the dedication needed to support LBP. That is surprising.

[Karmakin]

I don't think people are surprised that content was removed for copyright infringement. However, I think people are pissed that content is being removed without any explanation. It's even worse when there was nothing objectionable found in a great number of the moderated levels. To put it another way, MM and Sony do not have the talent or the dedication needed to support LBP. That is surprising.

The problem is the incredibly low bar set for what is "copyright violation". I don't think that making a remake of world 1-1 in a different engine qualifies as a copyright violation, or at least in a sane world it shouldn't be. And quite frankly, if it is, then the laws NEED to be changed.

If you make a living off of selling culture, you shouldn't complain when your work becomes part of the culture and is used and treated as such.

[Spectre-7]

Most similar services, like YouTube, seem to allow everything, and then pull anything if a copyright owner complains. I guess it's possible that's all Sony is doing, but it looks like they're pulling things preemptively, which is very unusual.

Yep. If I recall (and my recollection might be a little bit fuzzy), the DMCA has a safe-harbor provision which protects media portals so long as they remove infringing content in a timely manner after receiving a take-down request from the rights owner. I'm actually very surprised that Sony isn't operating in this mode, and I wonder if there's some loophole that prevents video games from enjoying the same protections that online videos do.

[wyeast]

Because the moment Sony tries to take a hands-off approach, they get it slapped right back at them when Sony Studios goes dropping the DMCA hammer on somebody else for infringement.

This is the bed they made for themselves.

[Variable Gear]

The problem is the incredibly low bar set for what is "copyright violation". I don't think that making a remake of world 1-1 in a different engine qualifies as a copyright violation, or at least in a sane world it shouldn't be. And quite frankly, if it is, then the laws NEED to be changed.

If you make a living off of selling culture, you shouldn't complain when your work becomes part of the culture and is used and treated as such.
I agree with you. It's not like sales of LBP are affecting sales of SMB on the VC. No individual company is being financially impacted by a LBP level, and it's simply interesting to see these kinds of remakes. As gamers, we enjoy seeing re-imaginings of our favorite universes through a varying number of lenses. I'll admit that I'm naive, but what's wrong with these remakes? What's wrong with this kind of creativity? This is like Nintendo refusing to allow someone to make Mario fanart to post on deviantart (http://browse.deviantart.com/?section=browse&order=9&qh=&q=mario). Again, I'll restate the fact that deviantart creators and LBP creators are not benefiting financially from their creations. Nor are the big corporations that we all know and love losing revenues.

It's a senseless world out there, full of strife, and yet I'm happy to inhabit it.

[DeathtollWRX]

Dangit, I wanted to see more levels like the Gradius level someone created. What a shame.

[KingGorilla]

Originally Posted by H.Bogard
This is why this shit lives in PC land.
Not entirely, I know that EA, Westwood, Microsoft were very much anti-mod for a long time. MS shut down that halo mod for Generals not too long ago. Some companies like an iron grip on their IP, plain and simple.

Protecting your brand in this way is much less ridiculous than, say the NFL sending cease and decists for churches having Superbowl parties, for example.

[MosBen]

The only question that occurs to me is: Is there anyone out there that didn't see this coming from a mile away?

[jeffbax]

I find the outrage against Sony from you guys very typical and misplaced. Really, its the law and they are following it. You may not thing that recreating mario is a big deal, but Nintendo sure as hell does - especially when it is on a competitor's system.

Its the same argument the RIAA uses. Sure, its a dick move to sue over this stuff, but if you don't attempt to protect your copyrights and trademarks and IP, the you are almost implicitly forfeiting control of your work.

I don't like this, but I can understand why they are doing it. At the same time, Sony likely would want the same treatment for their properties being used by those who aren't authorized. This is also about quality control. The original creators aren't in control of their franchise in this situation and they don't like it - its their right to keep others from attempting to make it even if its worse off for us.

Similarly, this is a stupid thing to not buy LBP over. There's tons of great content that isn't just cloning existing properties, and missing out on that would be a mistake in terms of trying to "stick it to Sony"

Also, arguing this as an example against games with user created content is similarly foolish. Please, so you're saying its good that other companies don't work on enabling user content because of small things like this?

[Spectre-7]

Its the same argument the RIAA uses. Sure, its a dick move to sue over this stuff, but if you don't attempt to protect your copyrights and trademarks and IP, the you are almost implicitly forfeiting control of your work.

AFAIK, failing to protect your trademark can result in you losing control of said mark, but the same cannot be said of copyright. You retain all rights to copy your work, and these rights cannot be forfeit by mere negligence alone.

Of course, IANAL, caveat emptor, and all other requisite warnings are in effect.

Cheers!

[DoctorFinger]

I agree with you. It's not like sales of LBP are affecting sales of SMB on the VC. No individual company is being financially impacted by a LBP level, and it's simply interesting to see these kinds of remakes. As gamers, we enjoy seeing re-imaginings of our favorite universes through a varying number of lenses. I'll admit that I'm naive, but what's wrong with these remakes? What's wrong with this kind of creativity? This is like Nintendo refusing to allow someone to make Mario fanart to post on deviantart (http://browse.deviantart.com/?section=browse&order=9&qh=&q=mario). Again, I'll restate the fact that deviantart creators and LBP creators are not benefiting financially from their creations. Nor are the big corporations that we all know and love losing revenues.

It's a senseless world out there, full of strife, and yet I'm happy to inhabit it.If a company doesn't defend their marks vigorously, they lose the rights to them. That's why companies with big, famous icons have to be dicks about them even when it's clearly not costing them a dime, so I wouldn't blame Nintendo, DC, Capcom or any of the other companies whose work is being used in LBP.

[Jeffool]

I'm reminded of Marvel comics pitching a bitch about players making Marvel Characters for use in Freedom Force (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Force_(computer_game)). It's not like they were losing money; they didn't even have a competing PC product until three or four years later. Freakin' whiny-ass people. As if they're going to lose a copyright they've had for fifty years in a two-year span.

/Still bitter.
//Still has the entire X-Force team saved to CD.
///And now that I've written this, I'll probably play that tomorrow.

[pomeroy]

I find the outrage against Sony from you guys very typical and misplaced.

I find your defense of Sony typical and misplaced, as well.

I can be intolerably smug, too! :p

[Adam Blue]

Yeah, and everyone shit on Microsoft when they said this was a can of worms not worth opening.

This is a good point that I'm surprised isn't still being talked about. People gave MS shit for not wanting extensive modding for there games over Live...for this reason. And we're knocking Sony because their getting shit for it so having to take action?

Best thing is to sit and wait to see how it turns out. Any finger pointing at this point is premature and only displays the inner-fanboy.

[Jeffool]

Best thing is to sit and wait to see how it turns out. Any finger pointing at this point is premature and only displays the inner-fanboy.To be fair, for some of us it's not console fanboyism, it's revile toward IP law. ;)

[Adam Blue]

To be fair, for some of us it's not console fanboyism, it's revile toward IP law. ;)

Yeah, good point.

[digitalErich]

What would it take to classify any of these levels as parody, I wonder?

[Farsight]

What would it take to classify any of these levels as parody, I wonder?

It doesn't matter. Sony's not going to go to court to defend it, or risk pissing off companies they work with. The law is basically irrelevant.

[Orca]

It's kind of funny that they provided a God of War outfit, and then went on to delete levels that reference the game.

I still don't believe the biggest issue is going to come from name-brand knock-offs though. It's going to be when the mainstream media discovers a random eight-year-old can go into the store and buy this game then go home to download a level where they fly a penis into the Twin Towers to bring them down as his replica penis shoots fiery cum over a miniature New York.

[Jeffool]

It's kind of funny that they provided a God of War outfit, and then went on to delete levels that reference the game.Well, they weren't making money off of the levels. (Well, directly, anyway.)

[Squidbot]

I'm torn on this. It sucks for the people who put a lot of time into these levels based on existing IP's, because some of them were very well thought out and must have taken a long time.

At the same time, there were tons of levels which were only popular because they were based on an IP. All the Mario ones, for example. Most were terrible, looked like shit, and were completely unimaginative recreations of Mario levels. I also played one that was a recreation of a MegaMan level... which played like shit. They aren't creative levels. They aren't fun to play... they only get hits because people are fans of the original games and want to say "oh neat, I know this!".

Meanwhile there are thousands of truly creative, original levels that NEVER get played or make it to the "Cool Levels" pages, so they end up being a waste of time for the level creator, because no one even played them, or will bother to even try them because they don't say "Mario, MGS, MegaMan, Final Fantasy, God of War, or Ninja Warrior" in their titles. <-- Huge run on.

In a way, I think this is a good thing. Maybe some truly creative and original levels will get the plays and attention they deserve. If people want to play a recreation of Mario levels then they can go play Mario.
The great majority of the levels based on existing IP were shit. Some were really good (the GoW one, Gradius, and a few others), but the vast majority were crap (that can be said about most of the user made levels, at this point though. I don't think their ratings system works very well).


Indeed, this is pretty much my feelings on the matter. I have to wade through a sea of utterly bollocks "LOLMGS4" or "Finel Fnatsy IIVV" before I can find any decent levels.
If people are going to infringe copyrights at least try and hide it, and make it worth playing.

Well, they weren't making money off of the levels. (Well, directly, anyway.)

How are they making money off of the Kratos costume?

a level where they fly a penis into the Twin Towers to bring them down as his replica penis shoots fiery cum over a miniature New York.

You played my level already then?

[Jeffool]

How are they making money off of the Kratos costume?I thought companies were charging for this, Solid Snake, Disney, and others? Am I wrong? Apologies if so.

[menage]

Indeed, this is pretty much my feelings on the matter. I have to wade through a sea of utterly bollocks "LOLMGS4" or "Finel Fnatsy IIVV" before I can find any decent levels.
If people are going to infringe copyrights at least try and hide it, and make it worth playing.


I don't think anyone here wants to wade through crap to get to the good stuff. My biggest complaint is the deleting the "Failure to launch" and the GoW level. seeing as the first probably wasn't even checked but assumed to be an infringement (don't fucking assume anything, check it), the second one wholly misplaced as indeed they gave out stuff themselves.

[Morratut]

Didn't everyone know this was going to happen? MS did :D

[Rakael]

Wow. Gamers can never have nice things.

[Karmakin]

What would it take to classify any of these levels as parody, I wonder?

I'd be willing to bet that 99.9% of these levels would fall under fair use. Firmly and clearly. The problem is that "fair use" is actually an example of the judiciary writing law. I think that some people think that it happens a lot more than it does, but this is one case where it's real. There's no "fair use" stature, at least in the US. It's a legal defense created by precedent.

That said, I think that codifying fair use is a really good idea, make it a tort to interfere with fair use rights, either legally (with a good faith clause*) or technologically.

* What I mean by this is that sometimes it may be very borderline if something is fair use or not. The idea is to prevent SLAPP type lawsuits when fair use is CLEARLY in play. Like in this case.

[MORGiON]

It's kind of funny that they provided a God of War outfit, and then went on to delete levels that reference the game.

One is licensed the other isn't.

I really think Sony/MM should have secured the right for users to at least make fan levels of Sony's big exclusive franchises.

Anyway hopefully we will see more original content instead of all the Mario & Sonic levels we have had so far.

[menage]

I'll wait before creating anything for a while. I'm pretty insecure that levels aren't being deleted on the suspicion of being an infringement, instead of really being thta. Seems pretty random how they deleted some content on there. No way am I going to put up a creation not knowing if it's get wiped or not.

[MachEnergy]

I can buy Legos and build a replica of a Super Mario Bros level....and you know what? It would be about as much fun to play as it is in LBP. Is that not a fair example because they are two different mediums? Ok. What if I get bored at the Macaroni Grill and use their off-brand crayons to draw a picture of a Crayola crayon. You wouldn't send in lawyers to crumple up my tablecloth paper, would you?

Like many people have already said, the themed levels don't play anything like the original games they are mimicking. At best, it is in appearance only, and even then the similarities are a stretch of the imagination. This whole thing is one big stifle to creativity. Really, did you expect gamers to NOT make game related levels?

[H.Bogard]

Not entirely, I know that EA, Westwood, Microsoft were very much anti-mod for a long time. MS shut down that halo mod for Generals not too long ago. Some companies like an iron grip on their IP, plain and simple.

Protecting your brand in this way is much less ridiculous than, say the NFL sending cease and decists for churches having Superbowl parties, for example.

One of a few isolated examples (and happened because of Halo Wars). I can show you Counter-Strike maps that've recreated the entire Resident Evil mansion as well as other games. Its because there's no console maker backing them up with this stuff is why everyone can get away with making whatever mods/maps they want here.

[JayVe]

This is like giving someone a canvas and a box of paints, but destroying their work if they decide to paint a picture of Sonic.

Honestly, how does this differ from an artist creating video-game-inspired artwork in I Am 8 Bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_8-bit)?

[JayVe]

I can buy Legos and build a replica of a Super Mario Bros level....and you know what? It would be about as much fun to play as it is in LBP. Is that not a fair example because they are two different mediums? Ok. What if I get bored at the Macaroni Grill and use their off-brand crayons to draw a picture of a Crayola crayon. You wouldn't send in lawyers to crumple up my tablecloth paper, would you?

Like many people have already said, the themed levels don't play anything like the original games they are mimicking. At best, it is in appearance only, and even then the similarities are a stretch of the imagination. This whole thing is one big stifle to creativity. Really, did you expect gamers to NOT make game related levels?

This post wins... a cookie. But not a picture of a cookie, cause Keebler may come in here and ask for it to be removed.

[Narradisall]

Meh, saw this coming miles away. LBP is a brilliant idea 'in theory', I never got into it because in practice it is doomed to failulre. Not the games fault at all.

[menage]

Meh, saw this coming miles away. LBP is a brilliant idea 'in theory', I never got into it because in practice it is doomed to failulre. Not the games fault at all.

So the game is doomed for failure because we can't build a big Mario or Sonic. How about creating stuff that's actually inspired? i played some pretty awesome original levels already.

I was never going to recreate stuff like that anyway, seems way to boring te re-create something instead of making shit up myslef.

[nixpayn]

i was playing this weekend and thinking 'you know,i bet someone has re-created super mario 1, world 1-1..' so i dug around and tried to find something... no dice.

so stupid.

[DoctorFinger]

I can buy Legos and build a replica of a Super Mario Bros level....and you know what? It would be about as much fun to play as it is in LBP. Is that not a fair example because they are two different mediums? Ok. What if I get bored at the Macaroni Grill and use their off-brand crayons to draw a picture of a Crayola crayon. You wouldn't send in lawyers to crumple up my tablecloth paper, would you?

Like many people have already said, the themed levels don't play anything like the original games they are mimicking. At best, it is in appearance only, and even then the similarities are a stretch of the imagination. This whole thing is one big stifle to creativity. Really, did you expect gamers to NOT make game related levels?The difference is your Lego creation and table scribbles aren't being prominently hosted on the servers of a major conglomerate, and available for public download.

Look, I'm not defending the dumb removals, like the God of War or Failure to Launch levels, but Sony has to take steps to protect themselves, the same way Activision has to remove that 'fan made' version of Stairway to Heaven on GH:WT. By leaving stuff up there until they get removal notices they run the risk of losing 'safe harmor' protections. It's unfortunate, but also illustrates perfectly why this level of user creation doesn't happen on consoles too often. PC games can get away with it because most mods aren't hosted on corporate servers, therefore Valve can't be held liable for that recreation of a Halo map that someone made for HL2.

[KingGorilla]

This is like giving someone a canvas and a box of paints, but destroying their work if they decide to paint a picture of Sonic.

Honestly, how does this differ from an artist creating video-game-inspired artwork in I Am 8 Bit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_8-bit)?

The DMCA. That is what is different. The Library of Congress, your own representatives have e-mail addresses, Wired and Engadget and other places have anti DMCA form letters. Go to it people.

Fair use for works under the DMCA is a defense to litigation by common law, not a statutory exception. And that is just how the publishers of media want it, for fair use to be too expensive for people to exercise.

[maverick106]

So the game is doomed for failure because we can't build a big Mario or Sonic. How about creating stuff that's actually inspired? i played some pretty awesome original levels already.

I was never going to recreate stuff like that anyway, seems way to boring te re-create something instead of making shit up myslef.

Wait, wait. What about the statue of David? It is clearly copying the form of a human, does that make it not inspired? Much of sculpture and portrait art throughout history has been modeled after physical things, and its still inspired, creative art. Painting a picture of a beautiful architectural scene in Paris doesn't make you a biter because you are copying the work of architects.

To take a new medium and effectively deliver the vision, feeling, or experience of something otherwise familiar is a very accepted practice in art. What about the different artistic movements throughout history? Groups of artists painting in similar ways...were they unoriginal because their styles looked similar? Or were they similarly inspired?

Any claim to doom for this game is because Sony (as prodded by lawyers, no doubt) has decided to remove any form of derivative work, dealing a heavy blow to the manner in which humans historically express creativity.

[JayVe]

Wait, wait. What about the statue of David? It is clearly copying the form of a human, does that make it not inspired? Much of sculpture and portrait art throughout history has been modeled after physical things, and its still inspired, creative art. Painting a picture of a beautiful architectural scene in Paris doesn't make you a biter because you are copying the work of architects.

To take a new medium and effectively deliver the vision, feeling, or experience of something otherwise familiar is a very accepted practice in art. What about the different artistic movements throughout history? Groups of artists painting in similar ways...were they unoriginal because their styles looked similar? Or were they similarly inspired?

Any claim to doom for this game is because Sony (as prodded by lawyers, no doubt) has decided to remove any form of derivative work, dealing a heavy blow to the manner in which humans historically express creativity.

This is an awesome perspective. Personally, I find the prospect of playing chiptunes on a plastic guitar controller super-inspired.

Edit: Is it true that all of your creations are owned by Sony, and they can even re-package them and re-sell them? That seems screwed up. Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow?

[roboninja]

IP law at this point in time is truly a joke, offering no rights to users. This has been known for some time, but I guess this instance brings the issues to light a little more. Don't expect Sony (or any other media company) to fight this battle for the consumer; they love the DMCA. Write your congressmen.

[MachEnergy]

The difference is your Lego creation and table scribbles aren't being prominently hosted on the servers of a major conglomerate, and available for public download.

I can understand these issues coming up when it comes to the public sharing, but even then, every video game magazine since the dawn of time has featured fan art. The thing that really bugs me is that they are removing it from the creator's hard drive. Perhaps it isn't possible to create something that remains local to your system....I dunno, haven't built a level yet. However, I have all the right in the world to create whatever I want with my digital toybox. Distribution is a whole different story.

[menage]

Wait, wait. What about the statue of David? It is clearly copying the form of a human, does that make it not inspired? Much of sculpture and portrait art throughout history has been modeled after physical things, and its still inspired, creative art. Painting a picture of a beautiful architectural scene in Paris doesn't make you a biter because you are copying the work of architects.

To take a new medium and effectively deliver the vision, feeling, or experience of something otherwise familiar is a very accepted practice in art. What about the different artistic movements throughout history? Groups of artists painting in similar ways...were they unoriginal because their styles looked similar? Or were they similarly inspired?

Any claim to doom for this game is because Sony (as prodded by lawyers, no doubt) has decided to remove any form of derivative work, dealing a heavy blow to the manner in which humans historically express creativity.

I see your point, but I don't think it's a good comparison. The statue of David was modeled after a human, humans aren't copyrighted (well, most of them aren't:P). It would be different if someone would try to recreate that statue in Photoshop and sell it as his work of art, but the statue already was an original piece of work.

Your view of artistic movements also doesn't add up. You can copy a style like cubism or art-nouveau and make your own stuff in it. But effectively copying another person work in that style is still plagiarism. A style doesn't mean anybody can use whatever they want with it. People can't recreate a Megaman level exactly, but the can make something in the style of that game, as long as it doesn't resemble imagery like Cutman or Megaman itself. It would be perfectly acceptable to make Breadman and level like that, cause that doesn't exist yet. You can try to recreate your own 8-bit vision of the game, but replicating a level exactly is still just that, replication, not artistry.

The stuff I saw online was all just that. 1 on 1 copy's, the only thing that looked different is that it was made using a level building engine with limits.

[JayVe]

I can understand these issues coming up when it comes to the public sharing, but even then, every video game magazine since the dawn of time has featured fan art. The thing that really bugs me is that they are removing it from the creator's hard drive. Perhaps it isn't possible to create something that remains local to your system....I dunno, haven't built a level yet. However, I have all the right in the world to create whatever I want with my digital toybox. Distribution is a whole different story.

What if you make a VIDEO of your Lego creation and post it on YouTube?

CRde9OUGzew

What if you send photos of your art to all your friends and family?

What if you hang your game-inspired art in a public place where millions can see it?

The real problem I suspect in in the ELUA for LBP. I suspect that Sony owns the rights to all creations in Little Big Planet instead of the end-user owning the rights.

[JayVe]

It would be different if someone would try to recreate that statue in Photoshop and sell it as his work of art, but the statue already was an original piece of work.
But, the creators in LBP are NOT selling their work. They are creating it and showcasing it. There is no problem with me creating a statue of David and giving it away. Same thing with Mario. I can create and give away Mario statues all day long.

There are a TON of videos on How to Draw Mario (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+draw+Mario&search_type=&aq=f).

Also, if you are right, and people can't create videogame-inspired art, how the hell does I am 8-Bit EXIST?!

[menage]

But, the creators in LBP are NOT selling their work. They are creating it and showcasing it. There is no problem with me creating a statue of David and giving it away. Same thing with Mario. I can create and give away Mario statues all day long.

I don't think you can, but I'm not sure. It kinda devaluates the other party's product. It's not that if you give shit way it's still not copyrighted. A site like I am 8 bit indeed copy's a lot of art, but I don't think it's the same. They probably have a disclaimer on the site saying they'e not responsible for any of it.

LBP also tries to sell an experience, and using other peoples assets in that which borrow or copy other peoples vision IS selling it. It's still sold in shops. And gives access to that content. You don't buy a membership from a website to look at fanart I think. But Sony is effectively trying to sell PS3's and copy's of the game. It's a commercial product, fanart isn't. It's not just you who can play it, but millions of others. That's the difference between recreating Mario dolls on a small scale, and on a massive production "China" level. I'll bet if you did it like that you would get sued in a second.

David probably wasn't the same because I don't think copyright existed yet.

[Karmakin]

Also, if you are right, and people can't create videogame-inspired art, how the hell does I am 8-Bit EXIST?!

Because copyright law is written absurdly broad, and because of this in the case of most "violations" it is ignored. That limit on absurdity is where we get fair use from. But if the laws were applied strictly as written, then there would be no I am 8-bit, there would be no fan art.

Hell, I'm of half a mind that this site wouldn't be allowed to exist either, at least not without draconian moderation, to the point where it might as well not exist.

Edit:For example...

Me:Isn't Fallout 3 (TM) a great game?

You:Yes, wasn't the part where ----Copyrighted information removed--- so cool?

Me: Yes, it was.

[JayVe]

A site like I am 8 bit indeed copy's a lot of art, but I don't think it's the same. They probably have a disclaimer on the site saying they'e not responsible for any of it.

I Am 8-Bit is an art show, where artists from around the world create video game inspired artwork. It is very successful, and it held every year in CA.

If a disclaimer is all it takes, well golly! Why didn't Media Molecule put a disclaimer on the game?

Experience May Change During Online Play. Sony and Media Molecule are not responsible for content created by users.DONE!

But, like I said earlier, the crux of the problem is that Sony OWNS your creations, not you. This changes the legal landscape.

I'd like to also state that it is extraordinarily shitty that they can come into your house and erase your work off of your own, private PS3. That's downright diabolical.

[Variable Gear]

I'd like to also state that it is extraordinarily shitty that they can come into your house and erase your work off of your own, private PS3. That's downright diabolical.
I agree. Sony and Media Molecule, consider this fission mailed. :(

[menage]

I Am 8-Bit is an art show, where artists from around the world create video game inspired artwork. It is very successful, and it held every year in CA.

If a disclaimer is all it takes, well golly! Why didn't Media Molecule put a disclaimer on the game?

DONE!

But, like I said earlier, the crux of the problem is that Sony OWNS your creations, not you. This changes the legal landscape.

I'd like to also state that it is extraordinarily shitty that they can come into your house and erase your work off of your own, private PS3. That's downright diabolical.

I didn't really know I am 8-bit (EU here), didn't look it up so that's my bad, should have looked it up.

Agreed it on the last one.

[Stmfuller]

interesting thing to try. create a level, make a backup, put a disclaimer at the start of the level that it is "lovingly inspiried by x" and publish it.
If they remove the level, I will sell my copy of LBP right now.

[Spectre-7]

...By leaving stuff up there until they get removal notices they run the risk of losing 'safe harmor' protections...

Wait, wait, wait... Hold yer horses there, hombre. Safe harbor is precisely the portion of the DMCA that allows them to host infringing content until such time as a take-down request has arrived.

Here's a little relevant Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V:

Question: What are the DMCA Safe Harbor Provisions?

Answer: In 1998, Congress passed the On-Line Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act (OCILLA) in an effort to protect service providers on the Internet from liability for the activities of its users. Codified as section 512 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), this new law exempts on-line service providers that meet the criteria set forth in the safe harbor provisions from claims of copyright infringement made against them that result from the conduct of their customers. These safe harbor provisions are designed to shelter service providers from the infringing activities of their customers. If a service provider qualifies for the safe harbor exemption, only the individual infringing customer are liable for monetary damages; the service provider's network through which they engaged in the alleged activities is not liable.

My ongoing question is whether a video game whose library of modifications is only browsable by paying customers would be eligible for safe harbor protections. I haven't seen the exact text of the law yet, and this seems like something of a unique case thus far. I'm sure the information's out there, but I can't be arsed to look it up right now. ;)

Anyway, you might be right after all... in order to qualify for safe harbor protections, "the service provider must not have knowledge that the material or activity is infringing or of the fact that the infringing material exists on its network." That seems like a difficult thing to enforce, and certainly hasn't stopped whole movies from showing up on Youtube in 20 minutes chunks. Still, this culling might just be Sony's first step in safe harbor compliance. I guess we'll see.

[MagGnome]

great post

I was going to come in here to rant and complain about this, but reading your post has softened my view significantly.

I'm still torn on this new "policy", but I'm not as upset as I was before. It would indeed be disappointing if the only levels that got attention were recreations of other games.

Still, MM defintiely needs to come out and clarify this whole policy. The limits need to be spelled out, because right now there is a lot of confusion and misinformation being spread.

[mister slim]

But, the creators in LBP are NOT selling their work. They are creating it and showcasing it. There is no problem with me creating a statue of David and giving it away. Same thing with Mario. I can create and give away Mario statues all day long.

There are a TON of videos on How to Draw Mario (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+draw+Mario&search_type=&aq=f).

Also, if you are right, and people can't create videogame-inspired art, how the hell does I am 8-Bit EXIST?!

I Am 8-Bit exists because the law is pretty well settled in the world of fine art. The works are somewhat derivative, in that they are making direct references to videogames owned by someone else, but they're clearly transformative, as in the artist is clearly not copying a piece but rather putting their own spin on the property. In the case of LBP, Sony is rightly removing things that are purely derivative, but they're also being over-zealous and removing transformative works because it's a difficult line to judge and because the case law isn't as settled in the videogame field, so no one really knows how a lawsuit would settle out.

[Schnoogs]

PC gaming for the win! ;)

[kropotkin]

I'm wondering if someone makes a Jet Set Willy 'tribute' of say oooh maybe the Banyan Tree (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wdLGrk3BwRw&feature=related) they'd take that down. I highly doubt it. Tributes to Speccy games won't be recognised by anyone who isn't British and under the age of 30. The very people who made LBP in the first place come to think of it.

[Variable Gear]

I Am 8-Bit exists because the law is pretty well settled in the world of fine art. The works are somewhat derivative, in that they are making direct references to videogames owned by someone else, but they're clearly transformative, as in the artist is clearly not copying a piece but rather putting their own spin on the property. In the case of LBP, Sony is rightly removing things that are purely derivative, but they're also being over-zealous and removing transformative works because it's a difficult line to judge and because the case law isn't as settled in the videogame field, so no one really knows how a lawsuit would settle out.
We need to just bring it to court. If we don't, this lack of consistency in the moderation of user-generated content will continue to hamper games with a heavy creative aspect.

[mister slim]

We need to just bring it to court. If we don't, this lack of consistency in the moderation of user-generated content will continue to hamper games with a heavy creative aspect.

I think a better case will be when something slips through the XNA Community Games moderation, where the creator is actually making money off it. That should do a better job of defining where the line between ripoff and transformative work is.

One example people have been missing is Braid. Blow actually integrates Mario levels, but in a way that is clearly using them to make a point rather than stealing something that works.

[Stmfuller]

I guess what I'm curious about is how creating a God of War or mirror's edge level is "creative". Rip-off stuff like that is usually the least creative levels out there.
It's not to say some of them aren't good. But they're just as good without coming out and saying "grrr I'm a GoW, or a mirror's edge rip-off


I think I've already mentioned how I hated the recreation levels and such. I personally think this is the best possible move MM and Sony could be making.

But the real question is about being 100% sure of what's being kept and what's being deleted. my earlier post about "tributes" should make things clear.
If you don't use anyone's IP but want to say something was inspiried by something else, I guess that's okay. But don't run around sticking pix of characters already in existance all over the site.

[Chaos Machine]

last time i checked you can make whatever the fuck you want so long as you dont use original assets from the game nor name it after the ip its based off of you are in the clear, so if you call it mega nario universe instead of super mario world you should be good to go.

oh, and imo they should just keep a list(aka a wall of shame) thats publicly viewable of companies/specific games that are guilty of being epic douchebags regarding this. I definately need to further prune my list of game companies/developers to never purchase a game from. namco/bandai just made my list recently over their fuck you to hellgate london players.

[KingGorilla]

Anyway, you might be right after all... in order to qualify for safe harbor protections, "the service provider must not have knowledge that the material or activity is infringing or of the fact that the infringing material exists on its network." That seems like a difficult thing to enforce, and certainly hasn't stopped whole movies from showing up on Youtube in 20 minutes chunks. Still, this culling might just be Sony's first step in safe harbor compliance. I guess we'll see.

Just like with fair use, this misses the point. Safe Harbor is a defense, not an exemption, to copyright infringement under the DMCA. Sony or Media Molecule, or both, would have to raise this in court. Just like Google would with Youtube.
The cost of a defense would cost more than LBP could ever make, so why bother. That is Why Gabe and Tycho yanked their Strawberry Shortcake strip. Especially as there is barely a remote chance of recovering attorney's fees for a successful defense.

[JayVe]

I'd like to state that Blast Works: Build, Trade, Destroy has a VERY IMPRESSIVE 3D editor built-in for creating your own levels. Their online marketplace for trading 3D assets, called the Blast Works Depot (http://blastworksdepot.com/games/blastworks/), contains LOTS of designs inspired by other games (http://gamercreated.com/games/blastworks/1722), movies (http://gamercreated.com/games/blastworks/1432), and shows (http://gamercreated.com/games/blastworks/5045).

[CES]

last time i checked you can make whatever the fuck you want so long as you dont use original assets from the game nor name it after the ip its based off of you are in the clear, so if you call it mega nario universe instead of super mario world you should be good to go.


The Great Giana Sisters. Perhaps you dont remember it? No matter, they had to withdraw the game from sale because it was in all honestly a Mario Bros clone, but with mostly original assets. So no, you cant steal design from another game and pass it off as your own (for profit anyway, probably not for free either)

Edit: Re-reading that, I wonder if you'd get away with it if it was in the form of satire? I think there's some exemption for it.

[JayVe]

The Great Giana Sisters. Perhaps you dont remember it? No matter, they had to withdraw the game from sale because it was in all honestly a Mario Bros clone, but with mostly original assets. So no, you cant steal design from another game and pass it off as your own (for profit anyway, probably not for free either)

Edit: Re-reading that, I wonder if you'd get away with it if it was in the form of satire? I think there's some exemption for it.

I'd read somewhere that the mechanics of boardgames weren't under protection. You can make a clone of Sorry, or Monolopy (there are actually many) with the same mechanics as long as the art and names were changed. Not being a lawyer, I don't know the details.

[CES]

I'd read somewhere that the mechanics of boardgames weren't under protection. You can make a clone of Sorry, or Monolopy (there are actually many) with the same mechanics as long as the art and names were changed. Not being a lawyer, I don't know the details.

Hmm, sounds interesting. It still seems like very thin ice legally, way too easy to get a lawyer to come down on them for it.

[Spectre-7]

blah blah blah

[JayVe]

blah blah blah

Veeery insightful!

[Spectre-7]

Veeery insightful!

I'd originally posted something else, but decided against it. It's part of my recent efforts to get into fewer pointless arguments online. ;)

[JayVe]

I'd originally posted something else, but decided against it. It's part of my recent efforts to get into fewer pointless arguments online. ;)

You know, you could have just as easily posted nothing. Truth be told, it would have been even EASIER to post nothing. :confused:

Edit: And now, here we are... having a VERY pointless discussion about avoiding pointless discussions. I think I may need to report this to the Redundancy Department of Redundancy.

[Spectre-7]

You know, you could have just as easily posted nothing. Truth be told, it would have been even EASIER to post nothing. :confused:

Edit: And now, here we are... having a VERY pointless discussion about avoiding pointless discussions. I think I may need to report this to the Redundancy Department of Redundancy.

No... I'd already posted something, and then edited it into noise after thinking twice about it. Dur.

[JayVe]

No... I'd already posted something, and then edited it into noise after thinking twice about it. Dur.

To continue the meme of pointless discussions...

I'm willing to bet that removing what you'd typed and replacing it with blah blah blah was more effort than simply clicking on another link.

But this is coming from the guy who compulsively argues about the efficency of "Blah blah blah"

[Spectre-7]

To continue the meme of pointless discussions...

I'm willing to bet that removing what you'd typed and replacing it with blah blah blah was more effort than simply clicking on another link.

But this is coming from the guy who compulsively argues about the efficency of "Blah blah blah"

Blah blah blah.

[JayVe]

Blah blah blah.

*twitch*
*twitch*

[JayVe]

Every time I think about this censorship, it baffles me.

How can Penny-Arcade make a LIVING out of creating things inspired from games, but we can't make things inspired from games in LBP?

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2008/20081112.jpg

[mister slim]

Every time I think about this censorship, it baffles me.

How can Penny-Arcade make a LIVING out of creating things inspired from games, but we can't make things inspired from games in LBP?

You can make things inspired by games in LBP. It's just that if you simply rip-off a game it will be deleted. If you don't rip-off a game it may or may not be deleted, depending on how Sony's poorly implemented and staffed moderation system works. And Penny Arcade got sued for misusing Strawberry Shortcake.

[Widgetcraft]

You can make things inspired by games in LBP. It's just that if you simply rip-off a game it will be deleted. If you don't rip-off a game it may or may not be deleted, depending on how Sony's poorly implemented and staffed moderation system works. And Penny Arcade got sued for misusing Strawberry Shortcake.

...How can you rip-off God of War using a 2D platformer's level editor? Hell, for the matter, how can you rip-off Failure to Launch using said level editor?

[mister slim]

...How can you rip-off God of War using a 2D platformer's level editor?

God of War is about as 2D as LittleBigPlanet. Anyway, scanning in a bunch of art someone else owns is not going to fly, even in a best-case-scenario where Sony's moderation is competent.

Hell, for the matter, how can you rip-off Failure to Launch using said level editor?

I think that was covered here:
If you don't rip-off a game it may or may not be deleted, depending on how Sony's poorly implemented and staffed moderation system works.

[JayVe]

God of War is about as 2D as LittleBigPlanet.

Yanno, I never could figure out the button combos in LBP to rip off my enemy's limbs like I did in God of War. :cool:

[BLeeP]

Yanno, I never could figure out the button combos in LBP to rip off my enemy's limbs like I did in God of War. :cool:

You hold down R1 to grab their arm, and then hit X as hard as possible.

Results may vary, though.

[JayVe]

Just came across this excellent editorial from PS3Informer (http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/games/editorial-copyright-madness-hurts-gaming-009502.php).

In order to show that a work qualifies for protection under fair use doctrine, it must meet several requirements. The new work must be mostly original, but can use portions of existing material for non-commercial purposes that do not cause the secondary creator to profit from the first creator’s content. The new work must not substantially copy from the original to the extent that it replaces the value of the original copyrighted work. Here again, we see that the crux of the problem is really LBP's ELUA which offers Sony the right to your created material. You can create what you want of video game inspired artwork, film, animation, and even other games, for non-commercial purposes. Since Sony owns your LBP creations, they aren't really yours, and could be used for-profit should Sony want.

Overall, a great read (http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/games/editorial-copyright-madness-hurts-gaming-009502.php).

[TheFlyingOrc]

Just came across this excellent editorial from PS3Informer (http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/games/editorial-copyright-madness-hurts-gaming-009502.php).

Here again, we see that the crux of the problem is really LBP's ELUA which offers Sony the right to your created material. You can create what you want of video game inspired artwork, film, animation, and even other games, for non-commercial purposes. Since Sony owns your LBP creations, they aren't really yours, and could be used for-profit should Sony want.

Overall, a great read (http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation-3/games/editorial-copyright-madness-hurts-gaming-009502.php).

And you could argue that Sony IS using your creations for profit, as people buy the game to play user-created levels.

[mister slim]

That editorial overstates fair use as interpreted by the courts. Being non-commercial is only one of the clauses a use needs to satisfy.