Politics and Religion Forum: Yea or Nay

[AgtFox]

Vote Yea if you want a P&R Forum, Nay if you do not.

Please be honest as this will affect the possibility of having one or not.

Vote is also not publicly viewed, so no one will see who voted where (I think that is fair, hope you agree).

[TheFlyingOrc]

Yes please.

[torrefaction]

No poll yet!

Also, of course,

Yea.

[J Arcane]

Nay.

Doesn't need it's own forum.

[AgtFox]

No poll yet!

Also, of course,

Yea.
Geez...poll is another step after creating thread, give me some more seconds. It is up now.

[Vulture]

Vote Yea if you want a P&R Forum, Nay if you do not.

Please be honest as this will affect the possibility of having one or not.
thanx for the opportunity to voice our opinions on the idea, to be considered in the further development of the site


yea!!!!:)

[fitbabits]

Nay. PiRi has this covered, as has already been mentioned. Why take away potential members of Andrew's site?

[AgtFox]

I didn't put a closing time on this...I think I can edit it at some point. When should this conceivably end? It should be given at least a day I say to give enough opportunity to everyone.

[shunoshi]

I voted yes. I rarely post in P&R forums, but I do post often in the OT forum. I prefer having them seperate.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Nay. PiRi has this covered, as has already been mentioned. Why take away potential members of Andrew's site?

I think that has already happened, personally.

[Grifter]

I voted Nay but as long as it doesn't show up in the side bar or leak into other threads I really don't care. I trust the initial group enough to know they can be adults about it, it's every one else down the road I'm worried about.

EDIT: Maybe this should be front paged for a day or two with an explanation so it gets the proper attention.

[Goronmon]

I voted Yay. I think keeping it separate is important to avoid having P&R topics competing with other topics for thread space. I also would like to see everyone from the community together as much as possible.

[itchyeyes]

I vote nay, but I get the feeling that it will be inevitable. I just hope that if it ever is implemented that it's kept in its place and doesn't overwhelm the rest of the site.

[astranoir]

I voted 'Yea.' I like the idea previously mentioned that you sign up for it, though. I understand that the P&R forum at PiRi is fantastic, but I would like to be able to access and post in all the community things I care about at a single hub, such as this.

[AgtFox]

I think if there was a P&R forum that it for sure would not be showing up on the forum thread list for new posts. I think even the P&R folks would be acceptable to that, correct? They know where to go if it's here, right?

[J Arcane]

I voted 'Yea.' I like the idea previously mentioned that you sign up for it, though. I understand that the P&R forum at PiRi is fantastic, but I would like to be able to access and post in all the community things I care about at a single hub, such as this.
vBulletin supports private groups, which are basically special forums that only show up if you join the group. The nature of the system also allows for stricter moderation because the group leader can simply remove someone from the group without banning them from the rest of the forum. It being private also nullifies my main complaint, which is that having a public forum for something invariably only serves as an invitation. RPGnet used it for certain particularly contentious topics like Religion and GLBT issues and such.

[torrefaction]

I think if there was a P&R forum that it for sure would not be showing up on the forum thread list for new posts. I think even the P&R folks would be acceptable to that, correct? They know where to go if it's here, right?

Truthfully? This failed miserably on Evil Avatar. It became a ghost town.

[cp#]

No. Go to reddit. It's just a troll fest and reposts of reddit stories

[Morangie]

I voted yes since its always a good idea to keep the political discussions separate from everything else, if only to keep the inevitable huge flame wars from destroying random threads.

[AgtFox]

Truthfully? This failed miserably on Evil Avatar. It became a ghost town.
I dunno, didn't the shut down from it being in the list happen after the split to PIRI (talking P&R people here)? To be honest I stayed away from P&R (you know that though), so I'm looking for correct information on what I'm conveying.

[Cit Phil Cit]

I voted no. I believe the two subjects, religion and politics are as an incendiary a topic as you are going to find, and do not complement a website about gaming.

[total]

I say make it and let the fires start.

[NoName]

I voted no. I believe the two subjects, religion and politics are as an incendiary a topic as you are going to find, and do not complement a website about gaming.

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.

[torrefaction]

I dunno, didn't the shut down from it being in the list happen after the split to PIRI (talking P&R people here)? To be honest I stayed away from P&R (you know that though), so I'm looking for correct information on what I'm conveying.

Nope, although maybe that happened again after the split, I haven't paid attention. This was a while back (Prior to me being a mod)...conversation died and subsequently a lot of the people who posted in P&R stopped being as lively on the forums overall.

When it started to get bad again is when I requested to be made a mod of the P&R forums. I got endless positive feedback on the quality of civility and communications from just about everyone, barring the couple of people I was forced to banned up until the point I left (Who of course thought I handled it all wrong.).

After I left, I heard (and saw) it went downhill. But you change the moderation style and take away the group of people who are best at ensuring that the forums are mostly self policing, and of course it's going to go to hell.

[Crittias]

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.This. Thank you.

[Ghost Rider]

I voted yes, purely because they are subjects which naturally stir up strong and often completely opposite opinions and in my view it makes sense to have one place for that kind of heated discussion.

That said, it won't bother me greatly if it didn't become implemented as there are other places to go to have that kind of talk.

[Grifter]

I would think that if you were really interested in talking politics the fact that it doesn't show up in the side bar shouldn't change anything.

The reason P&R gets so much play when it's on the sidebar is because a lot of people feel the need to defend their belief after viewing a possible inflammatory(intentional or other wise) title or first post. There are good members who become very passionate about certain subjects and they know not to go getting themselves involved because of that but constantly seeing those topics in the sidebar will eventually break them down.

I know it's not anyone's job here to protect others from themselves but sometimes, out of respect for everyone, it needs to be done and most of the time that involves giving up something you want or doing something a bit differently than you normally would.

[itchyeyes]

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.
The problem I have with this is that in a P&R forum people are there with the expectation that it's going to be more incendiary than a usual forum. And since the expectation is there, it tends to lead to more incendiary topics that wouldn't ordinarily fly in a forum that wasn't dedicated to P&R.

[Bingley Joe]

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.

My thoughts exactly. It will be incendiary, in some ways it should be incendiary, but since people are bound to bring up those subjects anyway, let them do it in a place where the fires are contained.

[Cit Phil Cit]

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.

Yeap, that's a good point too. I voted the other way for the same reason. :D

[Commissar Rob]

I'm buying into the "a place for everything and everything in its place" argument. I'd rather off-topic be for more light-hearted threads (fully automatic, battery-powered cat/dog/small children blasters for example (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=226)) than for heated discussions about which party is dooming which country to oblivion. Or, for that matter, what happens after you get to oblivion.

[Heretic Machine]

Nay, breeds animosity in the community.

[President Fred]

I voted yes for this very reason. People aren't going to stop making threads about the subject matter, and I rather it be somewhere that's easier for me to ignore. I don't want the OT to fill up with heated political threads.

I agree with this. I think that one of the issues with old one and one of the reasons I stayed away after a while was that despite all the rules and so on some posters continued to be incredibly unpleasant for no reason I could see. I thought torrefaction did really well as a moderator but if people are going to open in a hostile manner there isn't much you can do. It seems boring to have legislate conduct but I think in discussions about P&R it's even more important that people stay civil and unless torrefaction or someone is prepared to quit his job and stalk the forums with a copy of The Book of Etiquette I would rather it were in a separate forum. So I voted yes.

[pomeroy]

I vote yes, if only to see laff.gif posted.

[KingGorilla]

Yes please.

I am not surprised. Can we just call it "Orcie pisses off everyone else...and KG laughs?"

These topics, let alone forums, always end badly. Religion, Hitler, James Randy vs Juri Geller, all end in sorrow.

[Slack3r78]

I'm a yes. I'd even be willing to volunteer to help keep things civil if that's what it took.

[Bone]

I vote yes. I'd also volunteer to help keep it civil as I'm not nearly as interested in participating in the discussions there anymore.

But what I do want is unity for the forums, so I figure if some people really need the P&R to exist (and I understand the need) then it should exist. Those who don't care for it don't need to visit it, just like Xbox fans don't need to check PS3 news.

I think it says a lot that people still respect each other enough to continue wanting healthy, intelligent debate. And that to me is an important feature of a community.

[cp#]

no no no no

[Thanasimos]

We're gamers. P&R is a battleground. How can we refuse?

[Serapth]

Frankly I am now a no.

We have a sweet thing with P&R conversation going at PiRi. Lets keep it that way.

[Camel]

People like to talk politics, so it makes sense to have one I guess.

The only time I don't like political threads is when they are the only things constantly popping up on the sidebar.

[Tel Prydain]

I'd put in a P&R link that shoots people over the the PIRI forum.
Damn stupid idea to have two.

[Slack3r78]

Damn stupid idea to have two.
Guess what? You've just described my feelings about this whole mess.

[KingGorilla]

I'm a yes. I'd even be willing to volunteer to help keep things civil if that's what it took.

That is the trouble, every topic covered under politics and religion is guaranteed to spark uncivil responses.

[Slack3r78]

That is the trouble, every topic covered under politics and religion is guaranteed to spark uncivil responses.
Only if it's allowed to happen.

It didn't happen with any frequency at EvAv P&R once Torrefaction took mod status over the subforum and got it under control and it doesn't happen at PiRi.

[TheManEatingCow]

That is the trouble, every topic covered under politics and religion is guaranteed to spark uncivil responses.

I dunno. Things have been pretty civil over at PiRi's P&R forum (not counting the slap fights that happen between Ox and EG every few weeks). Now, that said, the more people that start posting in that type of forum, the greater chance of asshattery. Simple probability.

[Serapth]

I'd put in a P&R link that shoots people over the the PIRI forum.

This, I support this.

[Slack3r78]

I dunno. Things have been pretty civil over at PiRi's P&R forum (not counting the slap fights that happen between Ox and EG every few weeks). Now, that said, the more people that start posting in that type of forum, the greater chance of asshattery. Simple probability.
Which is why you need relatively strict moderation in those topics.

[KingGorilla]

Only if it's allowed to happen.

It didn't happen with any frequency at EvAv P&R once Torrefaction took mod status over the subforum and got it under control and it doesn't happen at PiRi.

If the wackos don't get all bent out of shape when I point out that space santa is just an immaginary friend, then I will change my vote.

All I know is that the last time I was involved in a discussion that was only related to religion in a tertiary manner. Ev Av was filled with lemon parties, and the unpleasantless went onto the radio and Scott's job got awkward.

[Slack3r78]

All I know is that the last time I was involved in a discussion that was only related to religion in a tertiary manner. Ev Av was filled with lemon parties, and the unpleasantless went onto the radio and Scott's job got awkward.
That involved a special kind of wacko.

[Tel Prydain]

Guess what? You've just described my feelings about this whole mess.

I feel like I gripe (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=233) too much. I understand that a lot of work went into this... I just can't understand why.

Why is there even a PC game forum at all? It should link off to IM.
Why is there a Matchmaking forum? It should link off to CO.
There should be a Ingame-chat forum that is just a link to Ingame-Chat.
There should be a comic forum that is just a link to the Johnny Gigawatt blog
There should be a 'User Reviews' forum that is just a link to PIRI.
The only local forum should be a news discussion forum.

THAT would be a hub... this is just another site begging for attention.
*sigh*

[Zrikz]

I'm ok with some P&R, there have been some good discussions and of course some bad ones. I believe with some ok moderation we will be fine and it would be enjoyable to have.

[BlackPete]

Gah... I enjoy a good P&R debate (and I troll too... but I at least try to inject some humor in it so people don't take my trolling TOO seriously).

But shit... this splintering sucks ass. I'm fine with linking off to other sites, but I just wish that this had've been dealt with long ago before all the splinter sites formed.

As we're now seeing, I foresee increasing friction over time from site owners who feel the need to protect their own sites from being gobbled up by the hive.

[Evewalker]

I voted yes. For some reason I like following politics with like minded individuals, even when amongst us we sometimes disagree on the issues.

[zirky]

Yes please.

While its not gaming per se, trying to filter out something that a large group of people care about will, as others have stated, cause it to spill into other less desired area or create an atmosphere of "off limits" type topics that caused so many to leave EvAv.

Besides, it is an election year in the US. Somewhat of an important one.

[SilentScreams]

Hell no.

This is a gaming site, correct? Or is the name misleading?

There are hundreds of political forums out there, so why do we need a politics forum on a gaming site?

[bone_matrix]

I voted no, as it seemed most of the problems stemmed from the P&R forum.

I also don't think the forums should only have a link to the other sites. I come here to be with this community now, I don't want to have to create 7 or whatever different accounts and always have to go to different sites anytime I want to read forums or talk about a certain topic.

[TheFlyingOrc]

This, I support this.

Actually, I like the idea as well. If you guys figure out how to unify logins, especially.

[Goronmon]

There are hundreds of political forums out there, so why do we need a politics forum on a gaming site?For the same reason we have forums for movies, music, writing, etc. It's a community site as much as a gaming site.

[Ten19]

For the same reason we have forums for movies, music, writing, etc. It's a community site as much as a gaming site.

Yes, but talking about music, movies or writing is much different than the emotional and frequently zealous tone that discussing religion and/or politics can lead to.

[zirky]

Yes, but talking about music, movies or writing is much different than the emotional and frequently zealous tone that discussing religion and/or politics can lead to.

Did you miss the first year of the release of the PS3?

[Goronmon]

Yes, but talking about music, movies or writing is much different than the emotional and frequently zealous tone that discussing religion and/or politics can lead to.As zirky said, the wars over consoles aren't much better.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Yes, but talking about music, movies or writing is much different than the emotional and frequently zealous tone that discussing religion and/or politics can lead to.

I'm a hardened cynic, but I have to believe that people can discuss their beliefs with each other without create a screaming match. I think it's possible, and I'd love to see it happen with this group of people.

[Ten19]

As zirky said, the wars over consoles aren't much better.

They can get heated yeah, but nothing like some of the bullshit I've seen when Internet people talk about Politics and/or Religion :p

[Slack3r78]

I'm a hardened cynic, but I have to believe that people can discuss their beliefs with each other without create a screaming match. I think it's possible, and I'd love to see it happen with this group of people.
I find it interesting that the people who are absolutely insisting it's impossible to maintain a civil atmosphere in the P&R forum rarely if ever participated in the P&R forum where we did just that.

[maverick106]

I voted yes, for personal desire and also because I want to be able to escape it and go play in nice, safe, Off Topic occasionally...i don't want the P&R following me there.

Also, it seems there are a lot of members who genuinely want to avoid it altogether, and I think we should give them an easy way to do so.

[Ten19]

I find it interesting that the people who are absolutely insisting it's impossible to maintain a civil atmosphere in the P&R forum rarely if ever participated in the P&R forum where we did just that.

I didn't say it would be impossible to maintain a civil atmosphere. I just said people tend to get MORE emotional and zealous when it comes to P&R, and as this site grows, so will the headaches of keeping more and more people from frothing over. Oh, and just because I don't "participate" doesn't mean I don't read most of the current and past P&R forums ;)

[Deunnero]

Unless its directly related to gaming, I say no. Take it elsewhere.

[Bone]

Unless its directly related to gaming, I say no. Take it elsewhere.
Again, not to sound like a broken record, but we have movies, music, knitting fer chrissake... we united over games, but as a community we share a lot more.

[roboninja]

I feel like I gripe (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=233) too much. I understand that a lot of work went into this... I just can't understand why.

Why is there even a PC game forum at all? It should link off to IM.
Why is there a Matchmaking forum? It should link off to CO.
There should be a Ingame-chat forum that is just a link to Ingame-Chat.
There should be a comic forum that is just a link to the Johnny Gigawatt blog
There should be a 'User Reviews' forum that is just a link to PIRI.
The only local forum should be a news discussion forum.

THAT would be a hub... this is just another site begging for attention.
*sigh*

These are my thoughts exactly. I do hope my fears are unfounded.

EDIT: I voted yes. The P&R forums are great things. Keep them as separate as you want, but not having them just makes the topics intrude into other places.

[Scull]

Let's put it this way. People will end up talking P&R no matter what you do, so better to have a place to contain it all than allow it to seep out into the general public chatter.

[Bad Buddha]

I was hoping this would be a gaming forum, not a place for people to push their beliefs on other people and defend the perceived attacks from others.

Gaming, movies, books, and hobbies are all things that I enjoy and look upon as escapist entertainment. That's why I come here.

Politics and religion are facets of life that are personal and emotion-charged subjects. I don't feel that giving the "discussion" of these subjects a place here at CoG is going to make the place better.

The concept is valid; providing a platform for discussion and presentation of viewpoints; but it never works that way in implementation.

[Telefrog]

Right now, I can't stand having to go back and forth between sites. I want my gaming community news and political discussion with my buddies on one site. In real life, I successfully game with my friends and have civil debates about politics. I don't have "political friends" and "gaming friends" in separate spheres.

[JediSanf]

I'm for it but on the condition it doesn't show up on the thread sidebar. Given that conversation moves fast and furious in there all the items eventually become P&R.

[Bone]

I was hoping, as others have said, that we could configure the sidebar ourselves. Like choose an entire sub-forum not to show in the sidebar.

[Serapth]

What I find funniest is that so few people seem to have noticed the lack of a sidebar...... :D

[astranoir]

What I find funniest is that so few people seem to have noticed the lack of a sidebar...... :D

There's one on the front page. I tend to check the New Posts page, though.

[SilentScreams]

What I find funniest is that so few people seem to have noticed the lack of a sidebar...... :D

Yeah I didn't really notice until somebody mentioned it yesterday. Then again, I never really used the sidebar on the old site much.
Occasionally it'd grab my attention with something like "Woman has third set of..." and in that case I'd naturally have to click it to find out what the rest of the title was, but other than that, I barely used it.

[pseudopseudo]

Nay, breeds animosity in the community.

I voted nay for this reason.

[keldi]

I think if there was a P&R forum that it for sure would not be showing up on the forum thread list for new posts. I think even the P&R folks would be acceptable to that, correct? They know where to go if it's here, right?

Maybe enable a profile option that enables P&R on the "New Posts" list. Leave it off for users who aren't logged in. I always hated seeing P&R stuff on the New Posts list on EA, and I would have turned it off if I had the ability.

Making it a toggle would allow the people who have an interest in it to follow it easily, and would allow people who want nothing to do with it to avoid it.

(If someone has recommended this earlier, my apologies.)
(Edit: Someone did. Oh well, leaving this up in support of it.)

[keldi]

I feel like I gripe (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=233) too much. I understand that a lot of work went into this... I just can't understand why.

Why is there even a PC game forum at all? It should link off to IM.
Why is there a Matchmaking forum? It should link off to CO.
There should be a Ingame-chat forum that is just a link to Ingame-Chat.
There should be a comic forum that is just a link to the Johnny Gigawatt blog
There should be a 'User Reviews' forum that is just a link to PIRI.
The only local forum should be a news discussion forum.

THAT would be a hub... this is just another site begging for attention.
*sigh*

That is a pretty fantastic idea, honestly. It would be hard to do in a seamless manner, as all the sites would have to share some level of login information, but it would pay off.

I wouldn't say this is just another site begging for attention, though. The people who've migrated here have a lot going for them, and the site has a lot of growth potential, both in userbase and capabilities.

[maharahaj]

I voted no. I believe the two subjects, religion and politics are as an incendiary a topic as you are going to find, and do not complement a website about gaming.

Quoted for Truth

[VerseD]

I said yea. Politics and religion are two topics that can really grind people's gears, but as long as everyone stays civil and respectful I don't see it as a problem.

Besides, people are going to discuss those two issues whether there's a place for it or not. Right now all the political threads are in The Lounge. If there was a Politics & Religion sub-forum, then at least the people who wanted nothing to do with that could avoid it.

[Slack3r78]

So, uh, that's looking like a 2-1 vote there.

[J Arcane]

So, uh, that's looking like a 2-1 vote there.
One of the admins said they'd only start the new forum if Siraris/PIRI agreed to it, so at this point I think you may have to ask them.

[Johan]

I vote no. Is an explanation of my vote really required? Okay; here it is:

I have comparatively few problems with people outside of political and religious discussions. I find that when such topics come up, I have a hard time restraining my inner urge to go ballistic over things that I believe quite strongly about (and which others believe quite strongly in disagreeing with me about, of course). I just think that the P&R sub-forum ruined the other forum for me. leave it elsewhere. Please.

Of course, I'm just one voice and I'm having a tough time transitioning away from the old and into the new, so I don't expect to be around nearly as much as I was at the old site (prior to my ban). Also, I'm expecting my sixth any day and, frankly, I'm pretty damn busy IRL, so I expect to be posting a lot less in general. Also, while it's nice to be known, sometimes being known can reawaken old arguments, and the P&R forum would be fertile soil for such a thing.

Just no. Just. Say. No.

[torrefaction]

One of the admins said they'd only start the new forum if Siraris/PIRI agreed to it, so at this point I think you may have to ask them.

So why bother with a vote? Unfortunately, I'm not really surprised either.

It amuses me though, to some extent, given all the political threads (some of which were started by admins) that are crowding the lounge.

[J Arcane]

So why bother with a vote? Unfortunately, I'm not really surprised either.

It amuses me though, to some extent, given all the political threads (some of which were started by admins) that are crowding the lounge.
To find out if this site even wanted it in the first place, of course. What an odd question.

And I'm not at all sure what you intended to imply with your latter statement either. No one ever said political discussion was disallowed, the debate was merely whether it needed it's own special forum.

[TheKeck]

I see no reason why not. I hate the idea of having forbidden topics on the forum, and otherwise, this stuff will just get discussed in the lounge or elsewhere.

[torrefaction]

To find out if this site even wanted it in the first place, of course. What an odd question.

And I'm not at all sure what you intended to imply with your latter statement either. No one ever said political discussion was disallowed, the debate was merely whether it needed it's own special forum.

How's that an odd question? The whole idea of the site I thought was to be community driven. I'm not even saying that this is what happened, just replying to your insinuation that they didn't plan on it regardless of the results.

I intended to imply that people who voted No because they didn't want to see political threads now have an off-topic forum crowded with them, rather than having that stuff with a little bit of a cleaner separation. I think it's funny that most people don't recognize that.

[Suave Peanut]

I voted "Nay" when the poll first appeared, but I've since changed my mind.

Initially, I just didn't want any animosity that could potentially be brewed up in P&R threads to spill over and follow people around into the rest of the site. Now, I'm pretty sure that we're mature enough to avoid that. I'd hope so, at least.


NOTE: I don't think I've ever posted in P&R, so don't value my opinion to highly in this matter.

[Troggles]

I also voted "nay" to begin with too. Now that I realize what I was actually voting for, a P&R forum as opposed to voting for letting P&R topics be posted I wish I could change the vote. The posts are going to made. Might as well have a place for them to be organized.

[Brady]

I think we should have one, for now anyways. There will be a lot of election talk over the next month. I think we should have one at least through the end of November.

[Midrael]

I vote yay since that's pretty much the only reason I keep going to EvAv at the moment is for P&R.

[pseudopseudo]

I intended to imply that people who voted No because they didn't want to see political threads now have an off-topic forum crowded with them, rather than having that stuff with a little bit of a cleaner separation. I think it's funny that most people don't recognize that.

Last I checked, there were two... maybe three political threads in the Lounge area.

That's far from "crowded".

[torrefaction]

Last I checked, there were two... maybe three political threads in the Lounge area.

That's far from "crowded".

There's more than that, and it's a new forum, full of the recreation of the noisy threads that used to be on EvAv that eventually die or at the very least slow down heavily. You're fooling yourself if you expect that to continue, and as the election season ramps up, for more and more threads to not be created.

[Tel Prydain]

That is a pretty fantastic idea, honestly. It would be hard to do in a seamless manner, as all the sites would have to share some level of login information, but it would pay off.

I wouldn't say this is just another site begging for attention, though. The people who've migrated here have a lot going for them, and the site has a lot of growth potential, both in userbase and capabilities.

Now I could be over reacting, but the way I see it is that there was an initial exodus from Ev Av and that created the sites IM and PIRI. Those sites grew and gathered their own community. It was all good. Then a second exodus happened and instead of joining the PIRI and IM sites, they have gone and created CoG.
What was wrong with PIRI or IM? Nothing. Why not join those? Instead they have gone and built a whole new forum for no obvious reason.

I’m just trying to gain a perspective on what the game plan is, because at the moment I can’t see it.

[fitbabits]

Now I could be over reacting, but the way I see it is that there was an initial exodus from Ev Av and that created the sites IM and PIRI. Those sites grew and gathered their own community. It was all good. Then a second exodus happened and instead of joining the PIRI and IM sites, they have gone and created CoG.
What was wrong with PIRI or IM? Nothing. Why not join those? Instead they have gone and built a whole new forum for no obvious reason.

I’m just trying to gain a perspective on what the game plan is, because at the moment I can’t see it.

I'll try to address your concerns as best I can...

Think of CoG as a parent and PiRi, IM, IGC, etc. as offspring. Each site in the CoG Network has its place, and you're more than welcome to hang out there instead of here. However, the other sites in the CoG Network are decidedly more specialized, whereas CoG itself is more of a general hub.

There's nothing sinister, nothing underhand, nothing obtuse about it - it's really that simple.

[Tel Prydain]

I'll try to address your concerns as best I can...

Think of CoG as a parent and PiRi, IM, IGC, etc. as offspring. Each site in the CoG Network has its place, and you're more than welcome to hang out there instead of here. However, the other sites in the CoG Network are decidedly more specialized, whereas CoG itself is more of a general hub.

There's nothing sinister, nothing underhand, nothing obtuse about it - it's really that simple.

Sorry - I'm coming off as an asshole here. What I really want is for this crew to return in force and take over Ev Av where we can all live together like we used to. I don't honestly think anything sinister or underhanded going on, I just want everyone togeather.
I'll shut my yap now.

[AgtFox]

Sorry - I'm coming off as an asshole here. What I really want is for this crew to return in force and take over Ev Av where we can all live together like we used to. I don't honestly think anything sinister or underhanded going on, I just want everyone togeather.
I'll shut my yap now.
Evil will never relinquish control of EvAv, it's a dead cause. No way a man that has spent 10+ years with the site is just going to hand over the keys. This is your surrogate home if you want EvAv as it used to be without the name attached to it.

[Tel Prydain]

I think I'll stick with PIRI for now - it has many of the folk I like to watch doing the P&R thing. Maybe once the sites come closer togeather I'll switch, but for now I'll stick to passing through.

[Sl1pstream]

I voted yes. It's already happening in off-topic. While I'm interested in US politics, I could do without 2-5 threads about your elections every day. A dedicated forum would help with that.

[TrackZero]

I think I'll stick with PIRI for now - it has many of the folk I like to watch doing the P&R thing. Maybe once the sites come closer togeather I'll switch, but for now I'll stick to passing through.

That's cool man, it's a free internet. Though I personally don't limit myself to one forum anywhere. But I don't go looking for P&R threads either.

[Tel Prydain]

Honestly, since the Ev Av blowout I've been spending most my time on a Kiwi site.
I figure that Ev Av, PIRI, Joystiq and my Kiwi site are enough to be going ahead with for now.

[torrefaction]

That's cool man, it's a free internet. Though I personally don't limit myself to one forum anywhere. But I don't go looking for P&R threads either.

It's always been a stretch for me to post on more than one forum, so I feel effectively ostracized from here, quite honestly. Just not my style. Before EvAv, I never posted on any forum other than a one-off post to ask a question or get help or the like.

[DangerousDaze]

I can't help feeling that I'd rather just see game-related content, but then much of what's discussed in the P&R forum (i.e. the P aspect) is mostly irrelevant to a native of the UK in any case.

[Bone]

It's always been a stretch for me to post on more than one forum, so I feel effectively ostracized from here, quite honestly. Just not my style. Before EvAv, I never posted on any forum other than a one-off post to ask a question or get help or the like.
I don't see how you are ostracized. I can see how you are torn between a couple of sites, but mostly I've seen nothing but warm invites to you and the PIRI crew. If the P&R forum were here, would you make the move, or is this a moot point?

[fitbabits]

It's always been a stretch for me to post on more than one forum, so I feel effectively ostracized from here, quite honestly. Just not my style. Before EvAv, I never posted on any forum other than a one-off post to ask a question or get help or the like.
There's nothing we can do about you feeling ostracized. There's already a burgeoning and healthy P&R forum over at PiRi, as has been noted.

For those still in the dark - the purpose of CoG (the site) was to be a much more professional and involved site than Evil Avatar. The purpose of the CoG Network was to give people the opportunity to get their jollies, be it PC, P&R, etc., at dedicated sites.

Nobody is forcing anyone to stay here. Likewise, nobody is forcing anyone to go elsewhere. Decide for yourselves - we're just giving you options.

[torrefaction]

I don't see how you are ostracized. I can see how you are torn between a couple of sites, but mostly I've seen nothing but warm invites to you and the PIRI crew. If the P&R forum were here, would you make the move, or is this a moot point?

I'm not saying I feel insulted, I just think it's odd. From the start, it feels like what was a vibrant and active portion of the community wasn't really welcome, at least in that capacity. I don't get the hub concept, if general topics like P&R aren't part of that. The whole thing hasn't made sense to me.

So, I'll stay at PiRi. But it makes me sad, because it's just the same community split that happened originally. Not to say I won't lurk or never post anything, and I'm really not trying to cause any chaos or any of that. It just sucks, which is why I've been relatively vocal about it.

Odds are this'll be my last post on the subject.

*Edit*

I'll also go ahead and throw in the core of what bothers me...since it'll be the last post on the subject. What has been announced as a community driven site seems to have ignored the first community vote on a subject. I can't say that doesn't bug me.

[fitbabits]

I'll also go ahead and throw in the core of what bothers me...since it'll be the last post on the subject. What has been announced as a community driven site seems to have ignored the first community vote on a subject. I can't say that doesn't bug me.

Jumping the gun, somewhat, aren't you?

[Bone]

I'll also go ahead and throw in the core of what bothers me...since it'll be the last post on the subject. What has been announced as a community driven site seems to have ignored the first community vote on a subject. I can't say that doesn't bug me.I understand what you're saying, and this last bit bothers me as well. The vote seemed to speak for us- I can't see what it would hurt to add the forum when the vote skews that way.

If it were up to me, anyone who lets arguments spill out of P&R should be first disciplined and then temp-banned. It's a fresh start for this site, it would be easy to start with a very clear rule for the P&R forum.

Personally, with all the topics we do talk about on this site, P&R is probably one of the most important ones affecting all of us- even those of you outside the U.S. are feeling the effects of our P, if not our R. Our P is getting all over the world.

[torrefaction]

Jumping the gun, somewhat, aren't you?

Maybe? All I know is that an admin put up a community vote, and nothing happened on it, except for going back to saying "That's not what this site was intended for."

It's just things from my perspective. I respect all of you guys, I just don't agree with some of the way all of this was handled. It's no big deal...I just think the idea of "networks" of forums, for someone like me and for most of the people I've heard from at PiRi...we don't want to post at multiple forums.

Maybe down the road there'll be a single unified forum, which I know is hard work, and my concerns will be resolved. But it just feels like further fracturing of the community.

[torrefaction]

I understand what you're saying, and this last bit bothers me as well. The vote seemed to speak for us- I can't see what it would hurt to add the forum when the vote skews that way.

If it were up to me, anyone who lets arguments spill out of P&R should be first disciplined and then temp-banned. It's a fresh start for this site, it would be easy to start with a very clear rule for the P&R forum.

Personally, with all the topics we do talk about on this site, P&R is probably one of the most important ones affecting all of us- even those of you outside the U.S. are feeling the effects of our P, if not our R. Our P is getting all over the world.

I don't know that I've ever seen one instance, outside of Cyberdistraction (Which actually occured in a ToT thread about a movie, IIRC), where P&R arguments caused problems in any other forums. I don't think I've seen a single case of that.

I guess I lied about the last post thing. Hah.

[fitbabits]

I understand what you're saying, and this last bit bothers me as well. The vote seemed to speak for us- I can't see what it would hurt to add the forum when the vote skews that way.

If it were up to me, anyone who lets arguments spill out of P&R should be first disciplined and then temp-banned. It's a fresh start for this site, it would be easy to start with a very clear rule for the P&R forum.

Personally, with all the topics we do talk about on this site, P&R is probably one of the most important ones affecting all of us- even those of you outside the U.S. are feeling the effects of our P, if not our R. Our P is getting all over the world.

Nobody has made any final decisions yet... Trust me, the community has a voice, and we love hearing it (for the most part - actually, only when I concur :) )

Let's move away from that and concentrate on why people do or do not want P&R.

[Bone]

I don't know that I've ever seen one instance, outside of Cyberdistraction (Which actually occured in a ToT thread about a movie, IIRC), where P&R arguments caused problems in any other forums. I don't think I've seen a single case of that.

I guess I lied about the last post thing. Hah.
I actually do remember some bad blood following out of the P&R forums, and it would have been names considered "usual suspects", but their arguments (outside of P&R) usually started "You always come with that liberal bullshit" or something along those lines. It wasn't often, and honestly those people would have been moderated in the P&R by you if you had been mod at the time.

Nobody has made any final decisions yet... Trust me, the community has a voice, and we love hearing it (for the most part - actually, only when I concur :) )

Let's move away from that and concentrate on why people do or do not want P&R.No problem. To echo Torre, it did seem like you or one of the other mods had said it wasn't going to happen, after the poll was already underway. I'm done with the subject too, just had to discuss P&R with Torre here :)

[fitbabits]

It's just things from my perspective. I respect all of you guys, I just don't agree with some of the way all of this was handled. It's no big deal...I just think the idea of "networks" of forums, for someone like me and for most of the people I've heard from at PiRi...we don't want to post at multiple forums.

Look, I'm not going to belabor the point, but NOBODY is forcing ANYONE to post at multiple forums. If one prefers to post at PiRi, then post at PiRi, and vice versa.

Also, and this is a real concern for me - if we open a P&R forum, what happens to PiRi? The bulk of the traffic there is for P&R - do we want to take that away?

Edit - I'm not suggesting that any final decision has been made. I'm merely pointing out what we have to think about before we make a final decision. Personally, I appreciate each and everyone's vote - THEY ALL COUNT!!

[Rogue_hunter]

I actually changed my mind. I think it's better to have a separate forum with a dedicated moderator. Keep it contained, but allow it.

[fitbabits]

I actually changed my mind. I think it's better to have a separate forum with a dedicated moderator. Keep it contained, but allow it.
Oh, bugger off and quit havering! :)

[astranoir]

Oh, bugger off and quit havering! :)

You really like that word, don't you?

[torrefaction]

Look, I'm not going to belabor the point, but NOBODY is forcing ANYONE to post at multiple forums. If one prefers to post at PiRi, then post at PiRi, and vice versa.

Also, and this is a real concern for me - if we open a P&R forum, what happens to PiRi? The bulk of the traffic there is for P&R - do we want to take that away?

I never said anything about being forced. The problem is that it sucks to know that a lot of the people who I felt were part of a community I cared about I won't really be talking to, purely because I don't have the will or time to post on multiple forums.

It's a good question, and that's fine...but I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be said openly of the reasoning, and for Siraris to chime in on how he feels about it. That's the kind of transparency that this site should strive for, if the focus is really going to be on the community.

I can't even say at this point that anyone left at PiRi would willingly move. The chance to reconsolidate the community properly has probably passed. I think that's probably why I've been bothered about this and why I've been vocal, more than anything else.

But it is what it is, and I don't really begrudge anyone for any of the choices made.

[fitbabits]

I never said anything about being forced. The problem is that it sucks to know that a lot of the people who I felt were part of a community I cared about I won't really be talking to, purely because I don't have the will or time to post on multiple forums.

It's a good question, and that's fine...but I think that's the kind of thing that needs to be said openly of the reasoning, and for Siraris to chime in on how he feels about it. That's the kind of transparency that this site should strive for, if the focus is really going to be on the community.

I can't even say at this point that anyone left at PiRi would willingly move. The chance to reconsolidate the community properly has probably passed. I think that's probably why I've been bothered about this and why I've been vocal, more than anything else.

But it is what it is, and I don't really begrudge anyone for any of the choices made.
You replied prior to my edit, torre...

Edit - I'm not suggesting that any final decision has been made. I'm merely pointing out what we have to think about before we make a final decision. Personally, I appreciate each and everyone's vote - THEY ALL COUNT!!

[Suave Peanut]

You replied prior to my edit, torre... Edit - I'm not suggesting that any final decision has been made. I'm merely pointing out what we have to think about before we make a final decision. Personally, I appreciate each and everyone's vote - THEY ALL COUNT!!

Who is this "fitbabits" that you quote? ;)

[VerseD]

Also, and this is a real concern for me - if we open a P&R forum, what happens to PiRi? The bulk of the traffic there is for P&R - do we want to take that away?

What about new members, who aren't veterans of Evil Avatar? It's kind of silly to tell them to go to a different site if they want to talk about politics or religion.

So far it looks like PiRi and CoG are growing into affiliated but separate communities, which is fine. There's no reason both forums can't have a spot to talk about politics, and we wouldn't be doing a disservice to PiRi members by making one.

[Commissar Rob]

Oi, the only thing that seems to generate more angst than the discussion in P&R is the the discussion about P&R.

I was lurking about over at this thread (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=664)in the Lounge...and it seemed to get fairly tense fairly quickly. I'm sure there's all sorts of baggage and background I don't get...but to me this seems to emphasize the importance of either providing a dedicated forum for that sort of verbal dueling/conversation/debate...or just not allowing it at all.

Edit: My tags, they need fixin'

[Lint of Death]

Oi, the only thing that seems to generate more angst than the discussion in P&R is the the discussion [I]about/I] (sic) P&R.

I agree with this statement.

[Slack3r78]

I was lurking about over at this thread (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=664)in the Lounge...and it seemed to get fairly tense fairly quickly. I'm sure there's all sorts of baggage and background I don't get...but to me this seems to emphasize the importance of either providing a dedicated forum for that sort of verbal dueling/conversation/debate...or just not allowing it at all.
That thread is exactly why these topics need to be in their own section with stricter moderation.

[roboninja]

That thread is exactly why these topics need to be in their own section with stricter moderation.

Agreed. This was what I popped in here to say.

[fitbabits]

That thread is exactly why these topics need to be in their own section with stricter moderation.

Or left over at PiRi.

[Slack3r78]

Or left over at PiRi.
Well, if there's not any willingness to moderate those threads beyond locking them, sure.

Especially given that the thread in question was locked when there was a civil, and what I thought was interesting, discussion going on outside of the bickering.

[fitbabits]

Well, if there's not any willingness to moderate those threads beyond locking them, sure.
The focus of CoG was always (and will continue to be so going forward) meant to be on gaming specifically, and entertainment in general. Sure, politics and religion can be entertaining, I guess, but not in the way I had in mind.

[Slack3r78]

The focus of CoG was always (and will continue to be so going forward) meant to be on gaming specifically, and entertainment in general. Sure, politics and religion can be entertaining, I guess, but not in the way I had in mind.
I don't remember anyone suggesting we rename the place Colony of Political and Religious Pontificates.

It does seem we have a nearly 2-1 consensus that we need a place for this discussion here, and an apt demonstration of what happens when those threads aren't clearly moderated, as well. If anything, I see locking threads mid-discussion on these topics as increasing the likelihood of fostering animosity.

[torrefaction]

Well, if there's not any willingness to moderate those threads beyond locking them, sure.

Especially given that the thread in question was locked when there was a civil, and what I thought was interesting, discussion going on outside of the bickering.

In my opinion, if you get to the point that you NEED to lock a thread, then you've failed to moderate it in the first place.

[Kielaran]

Yea. I would not participate, but it would be nice to have it as it's own entity, that way the Lounge stays clutter free and everyone looking for P&R can find it easily.

[mightbe]

The amount of drama that spilled over from that forum on the old site was staggering.

I'd pay good money to keep it off the sidebar here if it does go live.

[OldeWolf]

But within a colony of gamers, the gamers will always have a mind to use which means they will also see the political and religious aspects of gaming. And besides, in a colony/community/group/etc, there will always be a political/religious air when anyone opens their mouth/keyboard. If there is no forum in here for such, then it will be found spread out in all other forums since there is no centralized political/religious forums within CoG.

I'm not saying that I want it or not want it. I'm just stating what is out there.

[Kryopsis]

Voted 'Yes' based on two simple truths:
- I never read or posted in the P&R forum.
- Having a P&R forum means that I won't find P&R posts in the sections that I do read and post in.

[Matthias]

Yea. Although there's always a good chance P&R will break down into caveman games, it can be really interesting to read about things that otherwise wouldn't necessarily see the front page. Also, it's fun to read people's opinions, at least when they're thought out.

[Schnoogs]

I voted nay...I just don't have enough self restraint to avoid it. ;)

[fitbabits]

Just so you guys all know (and to assure you we've not ignoring this topic), we took an internal vote which we're going to discuss this week at a conference call.

[Heresyte]

I voted Yea, as my preference would be to have one unified board with forums for all the topics that people want to discuss. In other words, a forum should have the right to exist as long as enough people want it to exist. This 'Yea or Nay' bullshit is bullshit, as anyone who doesn't want a forum can ignore it, and shouldn't have the right to take the forum away from those who do want it.

The only complaint I've heard that I feel is justified is that CoG is supposed to be about gaming (exclusively). I understand that position, and if enough people feel that way I think the best approach in the long term is to have two general forums - one for gaming only and one for politics, movies, comics, technology, everything not specifically related to gaming.

I know vBulletin is powerful enough that superficially splitting this board into two shouldn't be that difficult. Internally it would be one board, but the two sections would be segregated from the perspective of the user. If the admins here aren't comfortable with that then someone would have to make another board that is specifically oriented towards non-gaming.

The only rational approaches are having 1 unified board or having 2 general boards (gaming and non-gaming). Dividing up some of the non-gaming across the more specific boards doesn't make any sense (i.e. it is ridiculous to have the politics and religion grouped in with the game reviews).

[KingGorilla]

The Marijuanna thread has changed me. Get that bullshit the fuck away from my Cosplay thread.

[Bone]

So, did I miss something, or did the community vote and nothing came of it? That's somewhat disappointing if so.

[divinechaos]

Damn, Yea is winning. If it must happen then don't let it show on the sidebar. That shit annoys me.

[fitbabits]

The founders discussed this very thing at length. We listened to all the pros and cons, then we took a vote on it. Given the result, there will not be a dedicated Politics & Religion forum at CoG.

I want to thank everyone who contributed to the discussion, and also remind you that you *can* still talk about P&R in The Lounge. However, if you want a dedicated P&R forum, then you should check out PiRi (http://www.playitreviewit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13). I've taken to discussing things of a political nature over there and I enjoy it.

In the interests of transparency, I posted and stickied the vote for all to see. You can check it out here (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=702).

[Johan]

The founders discussed this very thing at length. We listened to all the pros and cons, then we took a vote on it. Given the result, there will not be a dedicated Politics & Religion forum at CoG.

I want to thank everyone who contributed to the discussion, and also remind you that you *can* still talk about P&R in The Lounge. However, if you want a dedicated P&R forum, then you should check out PiRi (http://www.playitreviewit.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=13). I've taken to discussing things of a political nature over there and I enjoy it.

In the interests of transparency, I posted and stickied the vote for all to see. You can check it out here (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=702).

I'm glad, myself.

I also checked out PiRi and didn't sign up for my own reasons. Someone named Johan did, however. That cracks me up. I'm quite sure it wasn't me, unless I'm having a senior moment. :)

[fitbabits]

I'm glad, myself.

I also checked out PiRi and didn't sign up for my own reasons. Someone named Johan did, however. That cracks me up. I'm quite sure it wasn't me, unless I'm having a senior moment. :)
Ha! You have a fan. :)

[Johan]

Ha! You have a fan. :)

Actually, I think it was a detractor. I've earned/won a few of them as well! Whichever, it's all well and good.

Off to bed, am I!

[TheKeck]

I guess founders trump the community as a whole. That makes sense, I guess.

[fitbabits]

I guess founders trump the community as a whole. That makes sense, I guess.
That makes it sound more sinister than it was.

The founder vote was cast only after we considered all the pros and cons. That's the reason I decided to make the voting results public - so that people would realize it wasn't rigged.

[Zero]

The founders are the electoral college. :p

[National Kato]

The Founders are shit! Long live the Founders!

[Bone]

James, I appreciate the response and the transparency of the poll. Also, I wonder who the one dissenting vote was :)

[torrefaction]

Everything I try to say about this ends up with me sounding like a complete dick, so I won't say any of it. Clearly, I disagree.

[fitbabits]

Everything I try to say about this ends up with me sounding like a complete dick, so I won't say any of it. Clearly, I disagree.
Yet you said enough.

[Slack3r78]

I'm still having a hard time understanding what the purpose of having the community vote on this was.

[fitbabits]

I'm still having a hard time understanding what the purpose of having the community vote on this was.
To give the community a way to express itself. No promises were made when the vote was put up - we wanted the community's opinion on it before we discussed it.

The bottom line is that no matter how we voted, we knew some people would be upset.

[Johan]

There is so much available at PiRi in terms of political content (as well as other content, obviously...but that's not the focus of this thread). I actually think it's nice to have one of the CoG Network sites where it's a lesser emphasis, and one where it's a greater emphasis.

Also, the most important factor making this a non-issue in my mind is that there's no rule restricting political threads here; they just don't get their own sub-forum. It's perfectly acceptable, as far as I've read, for people to post political threads; it's just not a focal point of emphasis here.

Different members of the same family have differing strengths and weaknesses...it's nice that the CoG Network isn't a series of identical twins/siblings. What would be the point of that? We can enjoy each of them in their unique traits/features. They each have something to offer.

[Zero]

I'm still having a hard time understanding what the purpose of having the community vote on this was.

I would assume that it went under the Pros section of the Pros/Cons list. Or maybe the Cons...? Naw. Probably the Pros.

[Schnoogs]

Why are people so die hard about having a political forum or threads at a gaming site?? Go hang out at a political forum. Frankly I'm tired of stepping over and tripping on political threads.

I just don't get this "I go to gaming forums to talk about politics and then foam at the mouth when they take that option away forcing me to then talk only about games"

What am I missing?

[NoName]

I thinking having political threads in the lounge has been working ok (for the most part). Thanks for being open about the decision process.

[AgtFox]

I'm still having a hard time understanding what the purpose of having the community vote on this was.
It's my bad and I take full blame. I figured it was going to go one way, but it totally went the other way. I'm still not sure if people voted yea in order to box up any possible P&R discussion into a forum or not. I surmise that a lot voted yea in order to keep P&R in its own forum and to eliminate it from the forum post list from the messages that have been posted in this thread.

Anyway, I did put the caveat in that the founders were the final say on whether there would be a forum or not. If I had my way there wouldn't be any P&R talk on this forum period. There are other places on the internet, including a site on the CoG network where political discussion thrives and would be served better than here. I almost never touched P&R at EvAv simply because I think the anger contained within there often spilled out to other areas of the forum.

Anyway, maybe I should have worded the question better and say, "Do you want P&R Discussion at all?" instead of a forum question. Honestly though I don't know if the end result would be the same or not.

[zirky]

Why are people so die hard about having a political forum or threads at a gaming site?? Go hang out at a political forum. Frankly I'm tired of stepping over and tripping on political threads.

I just don't get this "I go to gaming forums to talk about politics and then foam at the mouth when they take that option away forcing me to then talk only about games"

What am I missing?

Why is there a movie forum? If people want to talk about movies, go to /Film, television, TWOP.
Why is there a deals forum? If people want deals, go to CAG.
Why is there a lounge? If people want random stuff, go to 4chan or Digg.
Why is there a creative arts forum?

What you're saying is "Why do people want to talk about something I don't want to talk about. They should take it somewhere else."

Personally speaking, I enjoyed the centralization of multiple forums on EvAv; it pretty much was one of my heaviest used sites. Then everyone got all drama-y and it got lame over there. Now, maybe I visit this site maybe once a day.

[Blue]

I don't see why it needs its own forum. I've actually been really happy without having to wade through any of that within CoG thus far and I personally would rather it be kept away. But that's just me.

[VerseD]

There's a lot of vitriol flying in some of the Lounge threads, especially on Prop 8 and the election. These should really have their own sub-forum.

It gets kind of confusing when one thread is about funtime arguments on breakfast and the one right above it is a sewage dump where everyone calls each other a hateful bigot. People joke in the political threads and some of the regular ones have people getting legitimately upset.

If there was a political forum it would at least put a line between general interest topics and serious political debates, and it would show moderators where to go. That Prop 8 topic needed moderation, and I bet there were hurt feelings because of where it went.

And it definitely doesn't belong next to the Caturday thread.

Why are people so die hard about having a political forum or threads at a gaming site?? Go hang out at a political forum. Frankly I'm tired of stepping over and tripping on political threads.

Says the guy responsible for half the posts in the political thread (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=2320) about Chuck Norris' reactionary column.

People are going to talk about political issues. They should have a designated place to do it, away from those who don't want to get their shoes dirty.

[pomeroy]

Why are people so die hard about having a political forum or threads at a gaming site?? Go hang out at a political forum. Frankly I'm tired of stepping over and tripping on political threads.

I just don't get this "I go to gaming forums to talk about politics and then foam at the mouth when they take that option away forcing me to then talk only about games"

What am I missing?

I don't know about a lot of other people, but I don't go to twelve different forums...I go to this one. I like the people here (for the most part) and want to discuss things with them. That's why I don't want to go to a political forum...I don't care what those people have to say.

[Slack3r78]

There's a lot of vitriol flying in some of the Lounge threads, especially on Prop 8 and the election. These should really have their own sub-forum.

It gets kind of confusing when one thread is about funtime arguments on breakfast and the one right above it is a sewage dump where everyone calls each other a hateful bigot. People joke in the political threads and some of the regular ones have people getting legitimately upset.

If there was a political forum it would at least put a line between general interest topics and serious political debates, and it would show moderators where to go. That Prop 8 topic needed moderation, and I bet there were hurt feelings because of where it went.

And it definitely doesn't belong next to the Caturday thread.
And you just hit on exactly why this whole 'just put it in the Lounge or go to PiRi' thing was nonsense from the start.

[pseudopseudo]

The vote's been taken, what's done is done. Why not just end the conversation?

[Zero]

Because it's politics. The vote is hardly ever the end of the conversation. It'll die off on it's own eventually.

[torrefaction]

So this totally sucks. Pretty much as I suspected, over the course of time, CoG coming up has pretty much killed most of the conversation at PiRi. That makes me sad.

[TheFlyingOrc]

So this totally sucks. Pretty much as I suspected, over the course of time, CoG coming up has pretty much killed most of the conversation at PiRi. That makes me sad.

Some of us try. ;)

[torrefaction]

Some of us try. ;)

I know, but the truth of it is, there's only like six...maybe ten, of us who talk back and forth now.

[pomeroy]

I know, but the truth of it is, there's only like six...maybe ten, of us who talk back and forth now.

It's like you said earlier...most people don't have the time/energy to go to multiple forums (especially to talk to the same people).

[Slack3r78]

It's like you said earlier...most people don't have the time/energy to go to multiple forums (especially to talk to the same people).
This has been blindingly obvious to some of us all along.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I know, but the truth of it is, there's only like six...maybe ten, of us who talk back and forth now.

You, me, Ox, MJBuddy, BlackPete, Ink Asylum, Alienmastermind, Vulture, Viking Horse, Serapth seem to be the only people who post a lot, or actually engage in debate and discussion.

[Slack3r78]

You, me, Ox, MJBuddy, BlackPete, Ink Asylum, Alienmastermind, Vulture, Viking Horse, Serapth seem to be the only people who post a lot, or actually engage in debate and discussion.
I have no idea what it is, but I just have a hard time getting myself to engage in serious discussion over there. Probably because I don't check the site with any real frequency since not much really happens there.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I have no idea what it is, but I just have a hard time getting myself to engage in serious discussion over there. Probably because I don't check the site with any real frequency since not much really happens there.

Well, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm sure there's plenty of people doing the same thing as you.

[torrefaction]

Well, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm sure there's plenty of people doing the same thing as you.

I think they call it death throes. People didn't want to let it die, but when everyone goes away...it sort of starts to become an echo chamber without fresh voices.

[fitbabits]

I think they call it death throes. People didn't want to let it die, but when everyone goes away...it sort of starts to become an echo chamber without fresh voices.
I've been popping over from time-to-time.

[Voodoo]

I think they call it death throes. People didn't want to let it die, but when everyone goes away...it sort of starts to become an echo chamber without fresh voices.

PIRI is fully capable of building a community just as strong as CoG. The same goes for IM. It takes a great deal of effort though...

At IM we've been trying an assortment of things to pull up our traffic levels up in the search engines and direct traffic areas. So far, just about 6 weeks into it, we've been seeing positive change. There isn't a lot of participation but we do have visitation records showing that our direct traffic and search engine traffic is ever increasing.

That all being said, if you want PIRI to survive it takes quite a bit of work. Or, you could just post about how it is in its death throes. I believe the future of the site wholly rests of those that continually visit the site.

[torrefaction]

PIRI is fully capable of building a community just as strong as CoG. The same goes for IM. It takes a great deal of effort though...

At IM we've been trying an assortment of things to pull up our traffic levels up in the search engines and direct traffic areas. So far, just about 6 weeks into it, we've been seeing positive change. There isn't a lot of participation but we do have visitation records showing that our direct traffic and search engine traffic is ever increasing.

That all being said, if you want PIRI to survive it takes quite a bit of work. Or, you could just post about how it is in its death throes. I believe the future of the site wholly rests of those that continually visit the site.

You know...this really irks me. PiRi had a community. A pretty strong one. Those people left to participate here, there's no denying that. Because when a lot of us originally left Evil Avatar, we said that if bapenguin made the decision to leave, we would follow.

And PiRi in no way lives or dies by it's forums. That's not it's primary focus. I'm here talking about, in particular, the death of what was a strong subcommunity of gamers who also considered themselves politics buffs. Now those debates don't really happen at either site. There's not really any arguing this. It's what happened.

[Slack3r78]

And PiRi in no way lives or dies by it's forums. That's not it's primary focus. I'm here talking about, in particular, the death of what was a strong subcommunity of gamers who also considered themselves politics buffs. Now those debates don't really happen at either site. There's not really any arguing this. It's what happened.
The particularly frustrating thing about it is that this has all played out exactly as a number of us have been saying it would all along.

[Voodoo]

You know...this really irks me. PiRi had a community. A pretty strong one. Those people left to participate here, there's no denying that. Because when a lot of us originally left Evil Avatar, we said that if bapenguin made the decision to leave, we would follow.

And PiRi in no way lives or dies by it's forums. That's not it's primary focus. I'm here talking about, in particular, the death of what was a strong subcommunity of gamers who also considered themselves politics buffs. Now those debates don't really happen at either site. There's not really any arguing this. It's what happened.

I agree. This all being said, how about a site which is part of the network which specializes in gamers that are interested in politics & religion? P&R stories could be posted there and those interested in such topics would then have a home of them. There could also be ever-up-to-date news posts on the front page about P&R happening all over the world, not just USA focused. I believe, if done correctly, it would take off very well.

Essentially, a Drudge Report for Gamers. ;)

[TheFlyingOrc]

That all being said, if you want PIRI to survive it takes quite a bit of work. Or, you could just post about how it is in its death throes. I believe the future of the site wholly rests of those that continually visit the site.
The problem isn't growing the site - I don't mind it, but I'm actually not that interested in peddling user reviews around - no offense to those who support the site in that manner.

What's upsetting torrefaction and myself is that we want some level of political discussion, as evidenced by him reviving this particular thread. What we want is to discuss politics with the people HERE, who we like. There's no way to funnel people into PiRi to discuss politics other than getting them here first, then having them find out about PiRi, then having them decide to take a look - and they aren't going to stay because there's no discussion going on. It's not like EvAv where we brought people in with news posts.

[torrefaction]

I agree. This all being said, how about a site which is part of the network which specializes in gamers that are interested in politics & religion? P&R stories could be posted there and those interested in such topics would then have a home of them. There could also be ever-up-to-date news posts on the front page. I believe, if done correctly, it would take off very well.

Because NONE of this makes sense. The whole idea of sister sites sharing the same community is fundamentally broken. Until there's a unified forum system, the larger site in the community is going to drain the userbase of the attached sites. This may not be true of front page hits, but it's undeniably true of the forums.

As Slacker said, we've been saying this would happen for these exact reasons from the very beginning. The idea that MOST PEOPLE are willing to visit and participate in numerous forums is far fetched at best.

[Serapth]

You know...this really irks me. PiRi had a community. A pretty strong one. Those people left to participate here, there's no denying that. Because when a lot of us originally left Evil Avatar, we said that if bapenguin made the decision to leave, we would follow.

And PiRi in no way lives or dies by it's forums. That's not it's primary focus. I'm here talking about, in particular, the death of what was a strong subcommunity of gamers who also considered themselves politics buffs. Now those debates don't really happen at either site. There's not really any arguing this. It's what happened.

I gotta second this. PiRi had something great going for a while there. A group of like minded but different people gathered there and conversations were great. Now, over the weekend I believe there were like 2 posts.

All told that whole situation sucked. PiRi doesn't have near the activity it did then. CoG doesn't really foster that type of conversation and comradery, which rather sucks. And EvAv is on life support with maybe a 1/5th of the posting it used to have.

A great many people I believe just quit or massively scaled back their posting and we all lost out. The ongoing death of what we had at PiRi is just another nail at this point.

[Voodoo]

The problem isn't growing the site - I don't mind it, but I'm actually not that interested in peddling user reviews around - no offense to those who support the site in that manner.

What's upsetting torrefaction and myself is that we want some level of political discussion, as evidenced by him reviving this particular thread. What we want is to discuss politics with the people HERE, who we like. There's no way to funnel people into PiRi to discuss politics other than getting them here first, then having them find out about PiRi, then having them decide to take a look - and they aren't going to stay because there's no discussion going on. It's not like EvAv where we brought people in with news posts.

I understand that you'd like to have the politics forum here due to the people being here BUT it is also possible, as we are seeing at IM, to build traffic from other sources outside of the CoG network. It takes quite a lot of work but its nice to have a source of visitors that isn't CoG and Evil Avatar as that in turn brings fresh blood to the network as a whole.

If the founders don't intend to make a P&R forums here I see no reason why a site couldn't be made for gamers interested in P&R. Done correct and with proper search engine treatment, it could be one hell of a traffic whore.

BTW, as far as I know, the current leader of traffic isn't CoG. I believe that crown currently belongs to Co-Optimus.
Because NONE of this makes sense. The whole idea of sister sites sharing the same community is fundamentally broken. Until there's a unified forum system, the larger site in the community is going to drain the userbase of the attached sites. This may not be true of front page hits, but it's undeniably true of the forums.

As Slacker said, we've been saying this would happen for these exact reasons from the very beginning. The idea that MOST PEOPLE are willing to visit and participate in numerous forums is far fetched at best.
What you describe here is only happening to PIRI. As far as I am aware, the rest of the sites (including Immortal Machines) has had traffic increased due to being part of the network. Actually, we've had the largest bit of surge due to direct traffic and search engine results.

[torrefaction]

I understand that you'd like to have the politics forum here due to the people being here BUT it is also possible, as we are seeing at IM, to build traffic from other sources outside of the CoG network. It takes quite a lot of work but its nice to have a source of visitors that isn't CoG and Evil Avatar as that in turn brings fresh blood to the network as a whole.

If the founders don't intend to make a P&R forums here I see no reason why a site couldn't be made for gamers interested in P&R. Done correct and with proper search engine treatment, it could be one hell of a traffic whore.

BTW, as far as I know, the current leader of traffic isn't CoG. I believe that crown currently belongs to Co-Optimus.

Of course it's possible to build a whole new community. I really think you're missing the point. Besides that, we're talking about forum traffic NOT web traffic. The two are significantly different. You should know that. You haven't had a post in your PC gaming forum in a week.

[Voodoo]

Of course it's possible to build a whole new community. I really think you're missing the point. Besides that, we're talking about forum traffic NOT web traffic. The two are significantly different. You should know that. You haven't had a post in your PC gaming forum in a week.

I'm not saying to build a whole new community. I also entirely get your point. My point is that if the founders do not want a P&R forum here, what other choices have you got? I presented you with a choice and I'm a man that like choices.

Also, depending of the CMS you use you can see visitation to all the different parts of your site. It can fully show you the difference between web traffic and forum traffic.

Also, our focus at Immortal Machines isn't the forums. They are in addition to our primary focus. For forums, like I said back in October, CoG is the place to go. :)

[TheFlyingOrc]

Also, our focus at Immortal Machines isn't the forums. They are in addition to our primary focus. For forums, like I said back in October, CoG is the place to go. :)

We were told "use PiRi for P&R stuff if you want". It isn't working, and it won't work. P&R forum now.

Also, quite a few people joined my "people who want some sort of P&R forum" group, even though I never told anyone about it.

[torrefaction]

Also, our focus at Immortal Machines isn't the forums. They are in addition to our primary focus. For forums, like I said back in October, CoG is the place to go. :)

Which uh...that's my whole point?

I can build up a page with a decent amount of hits easy. I've done it numerous times. The web and I? We're good friends. What I want is discussion with the people who I've been debating with (And fresh voices) for *years*.

So I thought I'd post about it one last time, because exactly what I said would happen, happened. One of the reasons given was that they didn't want to hurt PiRi's active P&R section. Well, it did, and for exactly the reasons I said when CoG first launched.

There's already a site called gamerpolitics. If I wanted to be involved in a community like that, I'd move there. And maybe I will. But I thought it was worth one last shot, given my attachment to the people around here.

[Voodoo]

We were told "use PiRi for P&R stuff if you want". It isn't working, and it won't work. P&R forum now.

Also, quite a few people joined my "people who want some sort of P&R forum" group, even though I never told anyone about it.

Well, like I said, if there is to be no P&R forum here what other choices do you have? I presented what I would do, it may not be necessarily the correct choice but given the circumstances it is what I'd do.

[TheFlyingOrc]

There's already a site called gamerpolitics. If I wanted to be involved in a community like that, I'd move there. And maybe I will. But I thought it was worth one last shot, given my attachment to the people around here.
I love you, too.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Well, like I said, if there is to be no P&R forum here what other choices do you have? I presented what I would do, it may not be necessarily the correct choice but given the circumstances it is what I'd do.

We can also continue to ask for a P&R forum here and make our case. That's what we're doing.

[Voodoo]

We can also continue to ask for a P&R forum here and make our case. That's what we're doing.

There's that too. I wish all that are interested in P&R here the best in the endeavor. May your forum be placed among the others.

[fitbabits]

We can also continue to ask for a P&R forum here and make our case. That's what we're doing.
And you're all welcome to do so. This is by no means a closed topic.

On a personal level, I would need to be absolutely certain that creating a politics and religion forum wouldn't be detrimental to CoG. Until such a time, I can't condone it. I saw the effect it had elsewhere, and one of the reasons I signed up for CoG was to get away from that completely.

[Disgustipated]

Just ban Schnoogs and Johan from the P&R forum and we'd be golden.

[TheFlyingOrc]

And you're all welcome to do so. This is by no means a closed topic.

On a personal level, I would need to be absolutely certain that creating a politics and religion forum wouldn't be detrimental to CoG. Until such a time, I can't condone it. I saw the effect it had elsewhere, and one of the reasons I signed up for CoG was to get away from that completely.

Perhaps we could organize a roundtable to discuss it in the IRC channel sometime? I feel like there's a case to be made that's a little more difficult to talk about in a place like the boards where we don't know who is talking to us.

I do strongly disagree that it will hurt things, especially if we give it a good mod (like torrefaction) and if we keep it out of the sidebar.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Just ban Schnoogs and Johan from the P&R forum and we'd be golden.

Seconding this. Schnoogs, and sometimes(only sometimes if he's lurking - he was usually OK) Johan, were the only thing I did not enjoy about P&R back at EvAv.

[Serapth]

And you're all welcome to do so. This is by no means a closed topic.

On a personal level, I would need to be absolutely certain that creating a politics and religion forum wouldn't be detrimental to CoG. Until such a time, I can't condone it. I saw the effect it had elsewhere, and one of the reasons I signed up for CoG was to get away from that completely.

I saw what it did to other sites aswell. Lead to a ton of interesting postings, that resulting in adding a number of extremely good posters to a forum that otherwise could have been drowned in mindless caturday noise threads.

At the end of the day, the most harmful action at that site came from gaming discussion, not P&R. Frankly, P&R got a bad rap based on the actions of a handful of people.

[Voodoo]

I saw what it did to other sites aswell. Lead to a ton of interesting postings, that resulting in adding a number of extremely good posters to a forum that otherwise could have been drowned in mindless caturday noise threads.

At the end of the day, the most harmful action at that site came from gaming discussion, not P&R. Frankly, P&R got a bad rap based on the actions of a handful of people.

Quite right.

[National Kato]

Just ban Schnoogs and Johan from the P&R forum and we'd be golden.

It really is this simple. Really. :D

I second Serapth's point about how the P&R forum back at EvAv suffered due to a vocal minority. During the periods of time when those in the minority were banned or left on their own, it actually became a nice place to discuss things.

[Slack3r78]

I saw what it did to other sites aswell. Lead to a ton of interesting postings, that resulting in adding a number of extremely good posters to a forum that otherwise could have been drowned in mindless caturday noise threads.

At the end of the day, the most harmful action at that site came from gaming discussion, not P&R. Frankly, P&R got a bad rap based on the actions of a handful of people.
The community at EvAv initially started to split over gaming, not P&R. Remember when a bunch of people left for PiRi? It was because of divisiveness over gaming and the subsequently poor moderation that resulted from it.

Those of us pushing for P&R have not been asking for a wild west setting. We've been asking for a tightly moderated subforum with liberal banhammer application. A few of us even volunteered to help make sure things stayed in control there.

[Serapth]

The community at EvAv initially started to split over gaming, not P&R. Remember when a bunch of people left for PiRi? It was because of divisiveness over gaming and the subsequently poor moderation that resulted from it.

Those of us pushing for P&R have not been asking for a wild west setting. We've been asking for a tightly moderated subforum with liberal banhammer application. A few of us even volunteered to help make sure things stayed in control there.

Ppppssssst. Thats what I said.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Ppppssssst. Thats what I said.

If it's repeated, they might take notice.

[Serapth]

If it's repeated, they might take notice.

If it's repeated, they might take notice.

[Slack3r78]

If it's repeated, they might take notice.
If it's repeated, they might take notice.

[fitbabits]

Ppppssssst. Thats what I said.

If it's repeated, they might take notice.

If it's repeated, they might take notice.

If it's repeated, they might take notice.
Look, it's noticed. I'm in no way ignoring it, and the above is just silly. It's not likely to win you any merit points.

Do you intend to pull the same 'stunt' until things are resolved to your liking?

[Slack3r78]

Look, it's noticed. I'm in no way ignoring it, and the above is just silly. It's not likely to win you any merit points.

Do you intend to pull the same 'stunt' until things are resolved to your liking?
Dude, the above 'stunt' was a joke. Chill.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Look, it's noticed. I'm in no way ignoring it, and the above is just silly. It's not likely to win you any merit points.

Do you intend to pull the same 'stunt' until things are resolved to your liking?

I think at least the last couple were joking.

My point was that it's fair to restate the opinion of how it will impact the forums multiple times by different people to demonstrate that multiple rational people can agree. Those quoting me were just having fun, I promise.

[fitbabits]

Dude, the above 'stunt' was a joke. Chill.
And now you see my point.

I'm aware it was a joke, but who says when the joke gets taken too far?

It's for this reason I'm reluctant to change my mind...

[TheFlyingOrc]

And now you see my point.

I'm aware it was a joke, but who says when the joke gets taken too far?

It's for this reason I'm reluctant to change my mind...

I can honestly say I don't see a correlation, could you further elaborate on the connection between requoting something because it invokes repetition and the ability of a politics forum to remain in control? The potential problem with P&R is that it gets too serious, not that it gets too silly.

[Slack3r78]

And now you see my point.

I'm aware it was a joke, but who says when the joke gets taken too far?

It's for this reason I'm reluctant to change my mind...
So because you chose to be offended by Serapth and I engaging in some dumb metahumor, it's evidence that P&R is a divisive topic? I don't follow.

[Serapth]

And now you see my point.

I'm aware it was a joke, but who says when the joke gets taken too far?

It's for this reason I'm reluctant to change my mind...

Actually I am so staggeringly far from seeing your point, that it is, well, staggering and ... far.

Honestly, no, your conclusion truly baffles me.

[fitbabits]

I can honestly say I don't see a correlation, could you further elaborate on the connection between requoting something because it invokes repetition and the ability of a politics forum to remain in control? The potential problem with P&R is that it gets too serious, not that it gets too silly.
The problem as I see it is that a lot of the ruckus at EvAv where P&R was concerned was someone posting something as a joke and someone responding in an aggressive manner, or people deliberately pushing others' buttons. It was often a very vicious circle.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm happy to discuss this further, but 'stunts' (heh) like the above make me want to just close the thread.

[Serapth]

Stunts?

A fucking joke is a stunt now???

[Voodoo]

His point is that different people read into things different ways. From his stance it seems he sways on the side of people getting unnecessarily offended by things that are posted within a P&R forum.

Hmm... Nope, I was a bit off I see. Saw the post come up after mine posted.

[fitbabits]

Stunts?

A fucking joke is a stunt now???
See. I paraphrased 'stunt' with a (heh), clearly making fun of myself, and your immediate reply is to drop an f-bomb.

One person's stunt is another person's joke, etc.

[TheFlyingOrc]

The problem as I see it is that a lot of the ruckus at EvAv where P&R was concerned was someone posting something as a joke and someone responding in an aggressive manner, or people deliberately pushing others' buttons. It was often a very vicious circle.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm happy to discuss this further, but 'stunts' (heh) like the above make me want to just close the thread.

I really think you're reading too much into it with this particular multi-quote silliness.

Quite frankly, trolls ARE a problem, and Schnoogs seemed to have no goals other than making everyone mad. If you saw what we had on PiRi right before this site launched, it was pretty sweet.

[Serapth]

His point is that different people read into things different ways. From his stance it seems he sways on the side of people getting unnecessarily offended by things that are posted within a P&R forum.

This is true in all forums, not just ones on political matters. Hell, gaming forums are perhaps amongst the *WORST* sites out there for dickish behavour, especially when fanboyism factors in. That doesnt stop the vast majority of posters being able to talk civilly about it.

[fitbabits]

I really think you're reading too much into it with this particular multi-quote silliness.

Quite frankly, trolls ARE a problem, and Schnoogs seemed to have no goals other than making everyone mad. If you saw what we had on PiRi right before this site launched, it was pretty sweet.
I did see it, which is why I'm still talking to interested parties about it.

[Voodoo]

This is true in all forums, not just ones on political matters. Hell, gaming forums are perhaps amongst the *WORST* sites out there for dickish behavour, especially when fanboyism factors in. That doesnt stop the vast majority of posters being able to talk civilly about it.

Stating a point and agreeing with it are subjectively different. In my post, I was stating what I thought he was making as a point. Based on his subsequent responses, I wasn't accurate.

My post didn't state my opinion on the topic at hand rather an interpretation of what I felt his point was.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I did see it, which is why I'm still talking to interested parties about it.
Cool, I'm really glad you're listening to people who you don't exactly agree with - it's part of what sets you apart from He Who Must Not Be Named (Ok, I'm talking about EvilAvatar)

Perhaps we could implement some formal policies on trolling in P&R? First time warning, second time tempban, third time permaban?(taking into account long stretches of time, of course)

[Slack3r78]

Maybe I'm not being clear enough.
Maybe we're not being clear enough -- everyone pushing for a P&R forum wants it to be strictly moderated.

Once torrefaction took the reigns of P&R over at EvAv and we started booting posters that proved themselves problematic from the P&R forum, the kind of nonsense you're talking about more or less stopped. Yes, things got heated at times, but the kinds of drawn out flamefests that had been a problem in the past do not happen if they're not allowed to happen.

As it stands now, the few political threads that have popped up on this forum have gotten totally out of hand precisely because they were allowed to.

[Serapth]

Stating a point and agreeing with it are subjectively different. In my post, I was stating what I thought he was making as a point. Based on his subsequent responses, I wasn't accurate.

My post didn't state my opinion on the topic at hand rather an interpretation of what I felt his point was.

It was an argument via proxy.

You, of course, were the proxy.

[ClannerDelta]

The problem as I see it is that a lot of the ruckus at EvAv where P&R was concerned was someone posting something as a joke and someone responding in an aggressive manner, or people deliberately pushing others' buttons. It was often a very vicious circle.

Maybe I'm not being clear enough.

I'm happy to discuss this further, but 'stunts' (heh) like the above make me want to just close the thread.

I'm not for or against a P&R forum.

You just aren't making any sense though. :( How is it any different than a normal topic? Me and Pomeroy managed to get in an argument over Kanye West.

Remember the Console Wars? Yeah, good times. Not political.

Magic PC? Also not political.

There is a reason the two top posters below you on that "other" site sat in P&R. For a 6 month period you couldn't find a single topic without them in it. The P&R section was entirely their playground. When Schnoogs and Rycter posted laff.gif over and over, who was punished? The entire forum, by having the ability to post pictures entirely removed. It was this kind of broad and entirely hands off approach to moderation that caused the issue.

Like I said, I don't care one way or the other. I just don't see your logic in the slightest. Sorry about the name dropping, but I'm not going to skirt the issue like they (and others) weren't a serious problem that was ignored until it became a gangrenous wound.

[fitbabits]

Cool, I'm really glad you're listening to people who you don't exactly agree with - it's part of what sets you apart from He Who Must Not Be Named (Ok, I'm talking about EvilAvatar)

Perhaps we could implement some formal policies on trolling in P&R? First time warning, second time tempban, third time permaban?(taking into account long stretches of time, of course)
One lesson I learned at a very early age, and one which was subsequently reinforced with my experiences at EvAv, was that everyone is entitled to an opinion, whether you agree with it or not. The trick is in listening and responding in kind when someone has an opinion that is counter to your own. Slamming doors in people's faces buys you nothing but resentment and disrespect. I respect people's opinions, and in return I ask the same of them.

That's how easy things like this can be.

[Slack3r78]

Perhaps we could implement some formal policies on trolling in P&R? First time warning, second time tempban, third time permaban?(taking into account long stretches of time, of course)
Treat P&R access as a privilege for posters who can handle it. If they show themselves unable to behave with civility, you remove their access to that subforum but not the site as a whole. Simple and we've proven that it works in the past.

[Voodoo]

It was an argument via proxy.

You, of course, were the proxy.

Bloody hell!

Well, I suppose it is better to be a proxy rather than a patsy.

Also... Once that straw hat becomes available, I will be donning it.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Bloody hell!

Seeing someone type that out made me laugh.

[J Arcane]

The problem isn't growing the site - I don't mind it, but I'm actually not that interested in peddling user reviews around - no offense to those who support the site in that manner.

What's upsetting torrefaction and myself is that we want some level of political discussion, as evidenced by him reviving this particular thread. What we want is to discuss politics with the people HERE, who we like. There's no way to funnel people into PiRi to discuss politics other than getting them here first, then having them find out about PiRi, then having them decide to take a look - and they aren't going to stay because there's no discussion going on. It's not like EvAv where we brought people in with news posts.
Then talk about fucking politics. As far as I'm aware there is no rule against it, no sanction against political discussion whatsoever, and I've seen plenty of it here since it opened, at least in the run up to the election.

There's nothing stopping the lot of you from talking politics, not a fucking thing. As far as I can tell, the real issue here is that you people want some kind of special recognition of your personal interest, despite it having nothing whatsoever to do with the main topic of the site, aired of course with a continuation of the same lame inter-forum politics this site was supposed to put to rest.

You want to talk politics, talk fucking politics, all the same people are here, there's nothing fucking stopping you except your own personal issues.

[torrefaction]

I disagree, almost entirely, with your viewpoint on the ruckus in P&R. Most of the fighting was caused by very deliberate trolling, not by any sort of jokes. I can think of very few instances anything remotely similar to what you describe occurring while I was a mod, and all of them were resolved quickly with a friendly in-thread warning. I think the politics forum while I was moderating stands in direct contradiction to the points you've made, while all the gaming forums are direct examples of the types of arguments and conflicts that occured. The jokes about other consoles *DID* create a lot of fights and tension.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Then talk about fucking politics. As far as I'm aware there is no rule against it, no sanction against political discussion whatsoever, and I've seen plenty of it here since it opened, at least in the run up to the election.

There's nothing stopping the lot of you from talking politics, not a fucking thing. As far as I can tell, the real issue here is that you people want some kind of special recognition of your personal interest, despite it having nothing whatsoever to do with the main topic of the site, aired of course with a continuation of the same lame inter-forum politics this site was supposed to put to rest.

You want to talk politics, talk fucking politics, all the same people are here, there's nothing fucking stopping you except your own personal issues.
There are a few things, actually. First, we've been pretty much told to take the political talk to PiRi, not here. Virtually none of the political threads here have been started by PiRi regulars, but rather by those who didn't know this rule.

Secondly, we're primarily asking for MORE moderation, not less. Doing what you describe creates all the problems that JAYoung is worried about, and none of the proposed solutions.

Thirdly, I'm trying to be considerate to all the people who said they don't want it in their sidebar.

[Serapth]

Then talk about fucking politics. As far as I'm aware there is no rule against it, no sanction against political discussion whatsoever, and I've seen plenty of it here since it opened, at least in the run up to the election.

There's nothing stopping the lot of you from talking politics, not a fucking thing. As far as I can tell, the real issue here is that you people want some kind of special recognition of your personal interest, despite it having nothing whatsoever to do with the main topic of the site, aired of course with a continuation of the same lame inter-forum politics this site was supposed to put to rest.

You want to talk politics, talk fucking politics, all the same people are here, there's nothing fucking stopping you except your own personal issues.

Trust me, that would not work out well.

If 5 - 10 political threads started popping up in the Lounge on a daily basis, you are going to hear a very loud minority bitch very loudly. Plus, I do believe there is a policy against political or religious threads on this site, its just not been heavily enforced.

[Serapth]

Thirdly, I'm trying to be considerate to all the people who said they don't want it in their sidebar.

What sidebar?

[TheFlyingOrc]

What sidebar?

There's one on the main page on the right. I never use it, but hey.

[fitbabits]

There are a few things, actually. First, we've been pretty much told to take the political talk to PiRi, not here. Virtually none of the political threads here have been started by PiRi regulars, but rather by those who didn't know this rule.

Secondly, we're primarily asking for MORE moderation, not less. Doing what you describe creates all the problems that JAYoung is worried about, and none of the proposed solutions.

Thirdly, I'm trying to be considerate to all the people who said they don't want it in their sidebar.
Wait, I don't recall telling anyone to take their politics and/or political musings to PiRi. What I've said, I believe, is that there is (was?) a thriving political forum there, which should be one's port of call if that is what they wanted to talk about. I've always said that politics, religion, etc. can be discussed in The Lounge.

[torrefaction]

The core of the problem is too many threads. I don't want to look at Caturday threads when I go to debate politics, and people who want to deal with Caturday don't want to deal with politics.

Why have a movies section? TV song? Creative Arts? Those don't have anything to do with gaming either. It also is harder to ensure things don't get out of control when things are grouped together like that. Things have their place.

[fitbabits]

Trust me, that would not work out well.

If 5 - 10 political threads started popping up in the Lounge on a daily basis, you are going to hear a very loud minority bitch very loudly. Plus, I do believe there is a policy against political or religious threads on this site, its just not been heavily enforced.
There's NO such policy, enforced or otherwise, at CoG.

[Serapth]

There's one on the main page on the right. I never use it, but hey.

Ah, hey, never noticed that! :) Also just realized the site is a fixed width layout. I normally use my 1280x800 laptop and never really notice. Now on a 1920x1280 screen as much of half of my screen is wasted!

Oh, wait sorry, going off topic.

[torrefaction]

Wait, I don't recall telling anyone to take their politics and/or political musings to PiRi. What I've said, I believe, is that there is (was?) a thriving political forum there, which should be one's port of call if that is what they wanted to talk about. I've always said that politics, religion, etc. can be discussed in The Lounge.

And what we've said, and what has since proved to be true, is that this site would result in the death of that politics forum. This has and probably always will strike me as a disregard for the political subcommunity that was previously active.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Wait, I don't recall telling anyone to take their politics and/or political musings to PiRi. What I've said, I believe, is that there is (was?) a thriving political forum there, which should be one's port of call if that is what they wanted to talk about. I've always said that politics, religion, etc. can be discussed in The Lounge.

Maybe it wasn't from you, and maybe it was imagined or misinterpreted. I've at least felt like someone with authority was very negative on political discussion on the whole, perhaps AgtFox in one of the threads BEFORE this one existed? (Not criticizing AgtFox for his opinion, I just thought he might have been the source)

[fitbabits]

The core of the problem is too many threads. I don't want to look at Caturday threads when I go to debate politics, and people who want to deal with Caturday don't want to deal with politics.

Why have a movies section? TV song? Creative Arts? Those don't have anything to do with gaming either. It also is harder to ensure things don't get out of control when things are grouped together like that. Things have their place.
Then subscribe to ONLY the threads you are interested in. I don't particularly care for some of the threads that are posted here, but I'm not about to get my balls in a twist over it. You have ultimate control over what and where you post.

[J Arcane]

The core of the problem is too many threads. I don't want to look at Caturday threads when I go to debate politics, and people who want to deal with Caturday don't want to deal with politics.

Why have a movies section? TV song? Creative Arts? Those don't have anything to do with gaming either. It also is harder to ensure things don't get out of control when things are grouped together like that. Things have their place.
So yeah, like I said, you want the forum to cater to your personal interest. I don't give a flying fuck about console news, so you know what? I don't read console news threads. Software like this is expressly designed with a host of features to make it easy to find what you're looking for without having to ensconce every last person's interests in it's own unique forum.

[torrefaction]

Then subscribe to ONLY the threads you are interested in. I don't particularly care for some of the threads that are posted here, but I'm not about to get my balls in a twist over it.

It's not about subscribing. It's about finding. The Lounge is the single most active and overcrowded part of this site.

Which is funny, given everyone's aversion to things that aren't the sites focus.

[fitbabits]

Ah, hey, never noticed that! :) Also just realized the site is a fixed width layout. I normally use my 1280x800 laptop and never really notice. Now on a 1920x1280 screen as much of half of my screen is wasted!

Oh, wait sorry, going off topic.
See, fuck you. Going off topic is just another one of your boring "stunts" - trying to deflect attention from politics and religion. Bastard.

[torrefaction]

So yeah, like I said, you want the forum to cater to your personal interest. I don't give a flying fuck about console news, so you know what? I don't read console news threads. Software like this is expressly designed with a host of features to make it easy to find what you're looking for without having to ensconce every last person's interests in it's own unique forum.

You know the feature that was designed with to help you find what you're looking for?

Subforums.

[Serapth]

See, fuck you. Going off topic is just another one of your boring "stunts" - trying to deflect attention from politics and religion. Bastard.

I am to please, you stupid Brit!

[fitbabits]

It's not about subscribing. It's about finding. The Lounge is the single most active and overcrowded part of this site.

Which is funny, given everyone's aversion to things that aren't the sites focus.
Like I said, I have NO trouble finding the things I'm interested in as I subscribe to those individual threads. It works for me.

[J Arcane]

You know the feature that was designed with to help you find what you're looking for?

Subforums.
Well then I personally demand a subforum entirely about cooking. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the site, but hey, I like cooking, and I don't want to have to dig through all the other threads to find the ones about cooking because I'm too much of a lazy ass.

[fitbabits]

I am to please, you stupid Brit!
Fuck you, eh!