Taxes-Debt-America-New World Order

[JayVe]

Just watched an interesting documentary. I'm sure a number of you have seen it, but for those who haven't (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1656880303867390173)...

It explores the idea that the federal income tax, the IRS and the federal reserve are little more than organized crime. The documentary challenges the idea that any of us can be taxed on our wages, and that the federal income tax is unconstitutional, and that most Americans never have to pay a dime.

I thought for sure it was going to be crazy crack-pots like the people who don't believe man ever set foot on the moon. But it didn't come across that way to me at all. Your mileage may vary.

[ShivaX]

It explores the idea that the federal income tax, the IRS and the federal reserve are little more than organized crime. The documentary challenges the idea that any of us can be taxed on our wages, and that the federal income tax is unconstitutional, and that most Americans never have to pay a dime.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
So much for that argument.

[Iron Past]

I haven't watched it, but all I want to say is you can't say, "I want social programs, I want government funded healthcare, I want unemployment, I want WIC," etc and not have the money come from somewhere. As I understand it, as Americans we pay substantialy less income tax than other countries, anyway.

[Re3x]

I would like to see someone not pay and see what happens.

[DoctorFinger]

I would like to see someone not pay and see what happens.
http://www.soxfirst.com/50226711/wesley_snipes_mugshot.jpeg

[ShivaX]

I haven't watched it, but all I want to say is you can't say, "I want social programs, I want government funded healthcare, I want unemployment, I want WIC," etc and not have the money come from somewhere. As I understand it, as Americans we pay substantialy less income tax than other countries, anyway.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png


http://www.soxfirst.com/50226711/wesley_snipes_mugshot.jpeg
Classic.

[ClannerDelta]

I'm all for personal liberties but our roads, military, tons of federal programs and institutions we all use have to come from somewhere.

The founding fathers were against taxation without representation. We are represented. So I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

[ShivaX]

I'm all for personal liberties but our roads, military, tons of federal programs and institutions we all use have to come from somewhere.

The founding fathers were against taxation without representation. We are represented. So I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

As a nation, we no longer understand the concept of having money to pay for things.

[OrangePulp]

While I may disagree on how my tax dollars are spent, I have absolutely no problem paying taxes in general. And the "unconstitutional" bit really got slapped down in a hurry.

[Krispy]

This wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_Sixteenth_Amendment_arguments) will probably shoot down any remaining arguments. The coursta re pretty strict about this one.

[johnperkins21]

I'm all for personal liberties but our roads, military, tons of federal programs and institutions we all use have to come from somewhere.

The founding fathers were against taxation without representation. We are represented. So I'm not entirely sure what the problem is.

As an atheist libertarian who supports gay rights and the legalization of marijuana, I don't really feel all that represented. But I totally get your point.

[ShivaX]

As an atheist libertarian who supports gay rights and the legalization of marijuana, I don't really feel all that represented. But I totally get your point.

You're represented, there just aren't many of you. :)

Actually theres quite a few people that think along those lines, but its rare for enough of them to be in one area to elect someone. I'd argue that Jesse Ventura actually fits that bill and he got elected governor.

[VerseD]

Paying taxes is patriotic. If you don't do it, you are a terrorist.

[JayVe]

Sounds like a lot of people in this thread didn't have time to watch the video before responding.

Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes
Education is paid for mostly by local taxes
Defense spending is equal to that of corporate taxes

The taxes you and I pay go to pay interest on loans from the Federal Reserve Bank, a PRIVATE organization... no more federal than Federal Express.

[rvieira]

Over here every pay check comes with 25% less because of income taxes.

[Generation ABXY]

To those of you who responded without watching the video, it will really behoove you to do so before you comment; I realize it is rather long, but there’s nothing requiring you to shoot back a response as soon as you read the first post. In the video, they cover many of the issues you bring up – this is only about Federal Income Tax, not about all taxes; in fact, it goes out of its way to say both direct and indirect and state taxes are fine. So, when you say, who will pay for roads, there’s a gas tax, when you say who pays for defense, there’s a corporate tax, etc. I can’t say whether it is legal or not, but when you think about it, the income tax doesn’t make much sense - where is all that money they're already taking for all these services going?

EDIT: Ack, I didn't realize the OP went and said pretty much the same thing just a few minutes ago; I need to learn to refresh before I comment.

[DiBiddilyBop]

Sounds like a lot of people in this thread didn't have time to watch the video before responding.

Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes
Education is paid for mostly by local taxes
Defense spending is equal to that of corporate taxes

The taxes you and I pay go to pay interest on loans from the Federal Reserve Bank, a PRIVATE organization... no more federal than Federal Express.

Within the first 15 seconds of the documentary, it states its purpose was to discover whether there is a law that requires people to pay income tax. The second post of this thread answers that question (yes).

I'm quite certain if I watched the entire "documentary," I would find a ridiculous cherry-picking of facts that further the film maker's agenda. I might find some time to watch it this weekend, but the tone it immediately sets is one where objectivity is not relevant, and proving a point rather than presenting facts is the end goal.

[MagGnome]

I really don't see a problem with paying income taxes.

I do, however, have a problem with where a lot of that money is being spent. I'm hoping that will change under Obama, but I won't hold my breath.

[Karmakin]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png
.

That chart is kinda fail. Actually it's a lot of fail.

Comparing tax rates without taking into account exceptions that reduce tax burden (sometimes called loopholes), gives a very inaccurate view of these things.

[Expugnare]

I haven't watched it all because I am about to go to dinner, but just remember, facts and quotes can be skewed any way to support a point. For instance, I know off the top off my head that the quote from John Marchall at 6:50 is in reference to Maryland attempting to tax the Bank of the United States (McCulloch v. Maryland), because I am in an American history class currently with a teacher who loves John Marshall.

[JayVe]

Within the first 15 seconds of the documentary, it states its purpose was to discover whether there is a law that requires people to pay income tax. The second post of this thread answers that question (yes).

Oh, if only everything were so easy.

I believe the documentary states why it was initially started. Where it ends up going is very different.

I'm not saying anything is gospel, take from the documentary what you will. But to comment without having watched it does the conversation little.

[Sl1pstream]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png

I see what you did there!




Also, that isn't complete, we're at number 6 right now and I'm pretty sure that we were never number 1, even in '05.

[Thanasimos]

I voted no. It's not that I wouldn't want to. It's just, I don't make enough that I have state income tax to worry about, and I was looking at my paychecks, and it turns out that no federal tax is shaved off of those. Maybe it has to do with my pay coming from the government in the first place, courtesy of work study.

[atomic_burrito]

Anyone disputing the constitutionality of federal taxes need only look to the Constitution, though that has been said ad naseum. Crackpot cinema.

[GunnyMo]

I'm just glad to see Germans paying so much tax. How else will they fund WWIII? :D Oh yeah, I went there.

[Iron Past]

Roads are paid for by gasoline taxes
Education is paid for mostly by local taxes
Defense spending is equal to that of corporate taxes

First, there's quite a bit of federal funding that goes into education, but are roads, education and defense spending all the government provides?

[boratika]

First, there's quite a bit of federal funding that goes into education, but are roads, education and defense spending all the government provides?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/ef/Fy2008spendingbycategory.png/800px-Fy2008spendingbycategory.png

Taken from the wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget,_2008) on it.

Full official kajigga here (http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/browse.html).

Note:The Iraq war and the Afghanistan war are not part of the defense budget; they are appropriations.

[Ox]

The taxes you and I pay go to pay interest on loans from the Federal Reserve Bank, a PRIVATE organization... no more federal than Federal Express.
First, interest on debt is a big chunk of the federal budget, but it's not the entirety of personal income tax receipts.
http://www.amtacdc.org/SiteCollectionDocuments/Amtac/Chart%20Images/USEG-g.pdf

By contrast, individual income tax receipts were just over $1 trillion (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html) in 2006. $1 trillion > $300 billion.

Second, that debt is not from the Federal Reserve, it is federal government debt that was issued through the Federal Reserve. Just as IBM issues its corporate bonds through an investment bank rather than selling them on street corners, so too does the federal government rely upon a bank to sell its debt instruments to the public. The Federal Reserve packaged and sold the debt, but it is a contract between the US government and whoever bought the bond (either China or your grandmother).

Finally, anybody who says the Fed is a private organization "no more federal than Federal Express" should probably take a look at the wiki page before discussing matters he doesn't understand.

I'll freely admit I haven't watched the entire video. Neither have I read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I have a finite amount of time on this Earth, and I can think of half-a-dozen better ways to spend it than listening to a tax protestor. I do, however, refer everyone to this website (http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html), where a truly decent human being decided to compile a thorough response to almost every known tax protestor argument and distribute it, for free, to all attorneys who have to respond to that nonsense.

EDIT: I did like the guy who had a legal realist interpretation. "The guy with the gun and the badge who comes and puts you in jail, that's the law." Oliver Wendell Holmes would be proud.

[Ox]

Good God. I decided to relent a little and watched half an hour of that utter crap. The sheer dishonesty of the filmmaker is galling. He shows a clip of a lawyer saying that "income" is defined as "gains or profits from some activity" and then narrates: "So the Supreme Court has ruled: income is not wages or labor, it's gains from corporate activity."

Hey, jackass. Exactly how stupid do you think I am? If you're going to lie to me in a film, try to at least cut the clips so they look like they support your views.

[Sl1pstream]

Good God. I decided to relent a little and watched half an hour of that utter crap. The sheer dishonesty of the filmmaker is galling. He shows a clip of a lawyer saying that "income" is defined as "gains or profits from some activity" and then narrates: "So the Supreme Court has ruled: income is not wages or labor, it's gains from corporate activity."

Hey, jackass. Exactly how stupid do you think I am? If you're going to lie to me in a film, try to at least cut the clips so they look like they support your views.

I want to see this now. :p

[Mr. Murphy]

I put it on in the background this morning. I didn't believe a word of it. There was no actual evidence, just sound bytes that he stacked on each other to make a point.

[atomic_burrito]

The USSC has held that income is gain or profit for ANY activity, see Glenshaw Glass. EOS.

[Sl1pstream]

Also:

Over 3 million views before Google removed it.

If Google removed it, how is it possible to even watch the thing on there?

[ShivaX]

I see what you did there!


I just posted a chart actually. You see what you want to see with it. I didn't say anything at all, it was just the first one I found.

[Expugnare]

I just posted a chart actually. You see what you want to see with it. I didn't say anything at all, it was just the first one I found.

*Pssst* He's Belgian, look at the highest taxing country on the chart.

[ShivaX]

*Pssst* He's Belgian, look at the highest taxing country on the chart.

Haha, I missed that. I still had no agenda.
Actually I'm not even sure what he could think I was implying.
I only responded because Karmakin sort of did the same thing.

[Spacetronaut]

I don't pay taxes, but that's just because I make so little money that the standard deduction covers it. I still file, I just don't pay money.

[KingGorilla]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png


What often fails to be taken into account are the city and state taxes that people often pay. Not to mention vast differences in sales taxes.

What I find more incongruous is that federally the US taxes comparitively little to other countries, but far outstripes all others in BS spending. While still managing to provide a pittance of the services other nations enjoy like proper roads, transportation, communications, and health care.

[Generation ABXY]

What often fails to be taken into account are the city and state taxes that people often pay. Not to mention vast differences in sales taxes.

What I find more incongruous is that federally the US taxes comparitively little to other countries, but far outstripes all others in BS spending. While still managing to provide a pittance of the services other nations enjoy like proper roads, transportation, communications, and health care.

I'm not sure I'd want my government to be in control of all those things. I mean, sure, it sounds nice to think of not having to, say, remember to send out money each month for phone and the Internet, but then they could feel they have the authority (more than they already do) to shut it down at a moment's notice.

That and, as I'm sure most people would agree, the government doesn't always do a bang-up job of running things. I'd rather not trust them any more with my life than simply saying to the new president each term, "Hey, don't get us nuked..."

[Lance Uppercut]

Well, that got shut down pretty quickly.

[Commissar Rob]

I'm just glad to see Germans paying so much tax. How else will they fund WWIII? :D Oh yeah, I went there.
Hey, they need that money! Poland's not going to invade itself. :p

[TrackZero]

As an atheist libertarian who supports gay rights and the legalization of marijuana, I don't really feel all that represented. But I totally get your point.

Move to Canada, you'll be in the majority. ;)

[Generation ABXY]

Move to Canada, you'll be in the majority. ;)

On the downside, you'll also be in Canada.

[JayVe]

On the downside, you'll also be in Canada.

I hear the view from the hat is nice. ;)

[KingGorilla]

The beaches in Canada suck. Merica has the Gulf Coast, it is a sexy thing. Also no pea soup eaters allowed.

[Whunpo]

fukk teh mann. i do not paye teh tackses nd supprt teh cptalist gvnmnnt. annearki in teh USA.

It also helps that I don't have an income. But no. No taxes from me. Unless you include late library books, etc.