Europe Gets Uncensored Joker Fatality in MK vs DC

[DoctorFinger]

LnfQegXCE_U

Remember that super cool Joker Fatality from Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe (which I've helpfully posted above)? We learned recently that to earn a T rating for the game - which is apparently a stipulation for allowing the DC characters to appear in the game - the fatality would be censored. The end part, with the blood and guts and brain bits, would be 'off camera'. But, apparently not all regions will be subject to the neutered fatality. Videogamer spoke to senior producer Hans Lo about the controversy.That's partly true [that the fatality has been edited]... You know, for North America we have a Teen rating, and teen really means 13 and above. Thirteen is pretty young, you have to admit. For Europe we have a 15, 16+ rating - so it's a bit different.So our brethren back on 'the continent' will get to see the Joker blow out some poor sap's brains to their heart's content. Happy days!

Source - Videogamer.com (http://www.videogamer.com/news/06-11-2008-9867.html).

[Goronmon]

That is an awesome fatality.

[Savok]

Still should of been Mr Crowbar...

[AgtFox]

That is an awesome fatality.
It would be even more awesome if we had it here in the US. I wonder what other fatalities had to be neutered. I've seen a few that snap necks and the camera whips right after a split second of the neck snapping happens.

[Adam Blue]

So the real news here is that this isn't what DC wanted, but what the ESRB allows.

[Druxk]

This game is losing traction amidst a sea of releases.

[JayVe]

Having the blood in the game or not will have absolutely ZERO impact on the gameplay.

[Bone]

Having the blood in the game or not will have absolutely ZERO impact on the gameplay.True, but part of the fun of Mortal Kombat WAS the blood. Achieving fatalities was a reward, and they've neutered the reward (again).

Still, this game was surprisingly fun at PAX. Really the most fun I've had in MK since the first two.

[JayVe]

True, but part of the fun of Mortal Kombat WAS the blood. Achieving fatalities was a reward, and they've neutered the reward (again).

Still, this game was surprisingly fun at PAX. Really the most fun I've had in MK since the first two.

I think I have a deep-rooted problem with using gore as a reward. That sends ALL the wrong messages.

The gameplay itself is completely unchanged. And isn't that what we, as gamers, care about?

[Hotcod]

So the real news here is that this isn't what DC wanted, but what the ESRB allows.

no the DC wanted the T rating in the hopes of making more money... it's just that you Americans seem to be the most hypercritical place in the world when it comes to sex and violence that for some reason the kind of crap that wouldn't have us blinking an eye lid over here gets rated as mature over there heh

:P

[Hotcod]

I think I have a deep-rooted problem with using gore as a reward. That sends ALL the wrong messages.

you must really really hate the bloody mess perk in fall out then

[DoctorFinger]

So the real news here is that this isn't what DC wanted, but what the ESRB allows.DC required detailed descriptions of all the moves and fatalities their characters would perform or be subjected to for approval. Nothing went into the animation studio without their OK, so they didn't have a problem with the Joker fatality.

[AgtFox]

I wonder what the ESRB had a problem with. This kind of violence has been seen in T rated games for a while. Blood is no longer an instant Mature rating for instance.

[JayVe]

I wonder what the ESRB had a problem with. This kind of violence has been seen in T rated games for a while. Blood is no longer an instant Mature rating for instance.Shooting someone, while unaware, in the face with a pistol, point blank, is worth of a Teen rating in your mind? :eek:

That kind of shit should NOT be on television or in games with a Teen rating.

[AgtFox]

Shooting someone, while unaware, in the face with a pistol, point blank, is worth of a Teen rating in your mind? :eek:

That kind of shit should NOT be on television or in games with a Teen rating.
I don't rate games nor am I saying this should constitute a T rating, what I am saying is that the level of violence shown has been in Teen rated games for years (not necessarily the point blank part, but headshots that show blood are in T games these days). There is a chance it was more than just the Joker fatality that made the ESRB slap an M on it at first.

[MagGnome]

I'm sure this thread will devolve into people screaming about how "stupid" the ESRB is and how they are trying to "censor" games, etc.

Keep in mind that the ESRB does NOT control game content. They merely rate it using standards that are somewhat set by the political and social landscape in America. Hence why sex is SO taboo while violence slides by a little easier.

Remember that the ESRB didn't mandate that they cut out this fatality. That was a decision that Midway made when they learned that they would not get the rating they desired.

I agree that there are problems with the ESRB, but to put the blame solely on the Board is ridiculous and ignores most of the issue.

I also have to agree with JayVe on this one. This fatality is gruesome and is not appropriate for teenagers IMHO.

[Savok]

The gameplay itself is completely unchanged. And isn't that what we, as gamers, care about?
It's Mortal Kombat, the only reason to bother is the gore.

[Bone]

I think I have a deep-rooted problem with using gore as a reward. That sends ALL the wrong messages.

The gameplay itself is completely unchanged. And isn't that what we, as gamers, care about?Sometimes. And sometimes the entire package, including the established theme, is important. If that theme happens to include violent fatalities, then yes.

you must really really hate the bloody mess perk in fall out thenI was thinking this as well. That perk even surprises me at times. I was only using a 10mm pistol- why did the radioactive bear explode?

Shooting someone, while unaware, in the face with a pistol, point blank, is worth of a Teen rating in your mind? :eek:

That kind of shit should NOT be on television or in games with a Teen rating.Really? Because the PG-13 Dark Knight is arguably more violent and realistic in its violence. I think the animation above is pretty tame and almost funny in its depiction of the Joker as a comic book character.

[Telefrog]

really? Because the pg-13 dark knight is arguably more violent and realistic in its violence. I think the animation above is pretty tame and almost funny in its depiction of the joker as a comic book character.

mpaa =! Esrb

Edit: WTF? Why did the board edit my acronyms with small letters?

[BigJonno]

The low ratings that Dark Knight got (over here it was a 12A at the cinema, which means you have to be 12 to get in on your own, but parents can bring younger kids in,) pretty much invalidates the whole media ratings thing. It was dark, violent and deeply disturbing at times, but a few clever tricks got it a rating that allowed anyone to see it.

[JayVe]

Really? Because the PG-13 Dark Knight is arguably more violent and realistic in its violence. I think the animation above is pretty tame and almost funny in its depiction of the Joker as a comic book character.
I agree that there needs to be consistency between the ratings, but the whole idea of "Well, this OTHER organization got away with murder, why can't we?" is the WRONG attitude one should have. Do what is right for the health, safety, and well being of the majority.

Shooting a defeated opponent in the face is wrong by any stretch of the imagination, and very wrong to tell a 13-year old that it is funny.

Edit: Just realized, when playing Soul Calibur in our home, there is an unwritten house rule. When the opponent falls, you stop beating on them. Sure, you can keep kicking a fallen opponent in the game, but it is crude and unsportsmanlike. Yet some people simply get their jollies from kicking people when they are down.

[muddi900]

no the DC wanted the T rating in the hopes of making more money... it's just that you Americans seem to be the most hypercritical place in the world when it comes to sex and violence that for some reason the kind of crap that wouldn't have us blinking an eye lid over here gets rated as mature over there heh

:P

Its not about the money. DC does not want to associate its main universe characters with "mature" themes. It's an editorial definition. PG-13 is as high as But DC's definition of mature is anything too much blood and sex. That's why none of their characters appear on their "mature" comics imprint, Vertigo. And that's why their was no blood in The Dark Knight. Blood or not, that movie should've been rated R.

Of course editorial decision may have something to do with money.

[JayVe]

Its not about the money. DC does not want to associate its main universe characters with "mature" themes. It's an editorial definition. PG-13 is as high as But DC's definition of mature is anything too much blood and sex. That's why none of their characters appear on their "mature" comics imprint, Vertigo. And that's why their was no blood in The Dark Knight. Blood or not, that movie should've been rated R.

Of course editorial decision may have something to do with money.

Well, to be fair, it IS also a money thing from DC's perspective.

Believe it or not, a lot of people do not buy Mature games. Parents are getting smarter about checking the ratings on the box, thanks in part to GameStop's heavy-handed enforcement.

If your game is T, there are more people who can purchase your game. If your game is M, you are limiting the number of potential customers. Kid sees Batman on the cover, brings the game to the counter, and is carded... then he can't buy it.

Same thing for the recent movie. If it was R, it would limit the potential audience of millions of kids who want to go see Batman. The movie, from what I am hearing in this thread, should probably have been R. It isn't because DC is afraid of the darker themes. DC comics wants the Teen/PG13 rating to broaden the audience.

[Bone]

mpaa =! Esrb

I know this, and like JayVe says below, it underlines the need for consistency. However, my point is that the movies are, and have been, setting the standard for parental guidance for years. In that regard, if you send your kid to a PG-13 movie, you know what to expect by now. The first PG-13 movie had a young boy's beating heart pulled from his chest, remember?

By that token, you could feasibly treat games the same way, if you believed there was any parity between the ratings system. I feel they are pretty close to each other, but movies allow worse for young teens, and they use actors, not pixels.

I agree that there needs to be consistency between the ratings, but the whole idea of "Well, this OTHER organization got away with murder, why can't we?" is the WRONG attitude one should have. Do what is right for the health, safety, and well being of the majority.

Shooting a defeated opponent in the face is wrong by any stretch of the imagination, and very wrong to tell a 13-year old that it is funny.I somewhat agree, but just because a game is rated for teens doesn't mean you have to let your teens play it. They all mature at a different speed. But as a 13 year old, I had seen plenty of violence already (Temple of Doom and Red Dawn came out that year) and so the kind of cartoon violence you're describing from MK was already in perspective for me. I wouldn't have equated it to a real person being shot in the face, and have never lost my real-world empathy towards people (I'm extremely non violent!).

Parental and personal responsibility FTW.

[JayVe]

Parental and personal responsibility FTW.

Yes. Agree that the buck stops with the parent. So shouldn't we work to give parents more consistent and meaningful rating systems?

I'm GLAD that this fatality is not in a Teen game, here in the US.

[muddi900]

Well, to be fair, it IS also a money thing from DC's perspective.

Believe it or not, a lot of people do not buy Mature games. Parents are getting smarter about checking the ratings on the box, thanks in part to GameStop's heavy-handed enforcement.

If your game is T, there are more people who can purchase your game. If your game is M, you are limiting the number of potential customers. Kid sees Batman on the cover, brings the game to the counter, and is carded... then he can't buy it.

Same thing for the recent movie. If it was R, it would limit the potential audience of millions of kids who want to go see Batman. The movie, from what I am hearing in this thread, should probably have been R. It isn't because DC is afraid of the darker themes. DC comics wants the Teen/PG13 rating to broaden the audience.


But this is not something new. DC has been doing this with its characters since the past 15 years in the comics. Its a policy.

As far as ratings go, their biggest problem is that they are quantified. if you have "fuck" less than 3 times and as non-sexual reference its a PG-13, else an R. How the fuck do you quantify something like that?

[JayVe]

But this is not something new. DC has been doing this with its characters since the past 15 years in the comics. Its a policy.

I didn't say it was new. :confused: I DID say it was about the money. It is.

Its not about the money. DC does not want to associate its main universe characters with "mature" themes.

DC is no stranger to their characters flirting with darker, more adult themes. I hold up my leather-bound Return of the Dark Knight collection as proof.

[Bone]

Yes. Agree that the buck stops with the parent. So shouldn't we work to give parents more consistent and meaningful rating systems?

I'm GLAD that this fatality is not in a Teen game, here in the US.
I fully agree our rating systems should be more consistent, clear, and meaningful!

But I fully disagree that not having this fatality in the US is a victory. It should just say on the box: GRAPHIC VIOLENCE: DISMEMBERMENT/DECAPITATION. And if any parent thinks their 13 year old can handle it, that is their choice. I certainly would have enjoyed this fatality at 13 and it wouldn't have made me a horrible person. I was ripping spines out of people at the arcade already.

[JayVe]

I fully agree our rating systems should be more consistent, clear, and meaningful!

But I fully disagree that not having this fatality in the US is a victory. It should just say on the box: GRAPHIC VIOLENCE: DISMEMBERMENT/DECAPITATION. And if any parent thinks their 13 year old can handle it, that is their choice. I certainly would have enjoyed this fatality at 13 and it wouldn't have made me a horrible person. I was ripping spines out of people at the arcade already.

I think you'll find that most people, when asked, would file GRAPHIC VIOLENCE: DISMEMBERMENT/DECAPITATION under M and not under T.

[Bone]

I think you'll find that most people, when asked, would file GRAPHIC VIOLENCE: DISMEMBERMENT/DECAPITATION under M and not under T.And the ESRB would concur (http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp).

But again, when given the examples set forth by the MPAA, this isn't historically the case. Young teens have been watching this sort of stuff since the 80's (legally of course. Before that, we all just snuck into R rated movies. Also, back then, PG movies had tits!).

I personally think that a 13 year old may well be ready for such content. And maybe then I would let them play the M rated version. I suppose I have a problem with the arbitrary ages attached to these ratings, when people mature at different rates and about very different subjects (some kids handle sex more maturely than violence, or vice versa).

[LongStepMantis]

Just an aside, I started watching Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street movies when I was 9. I have never brutally murdered anyone...that I know of.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

[JayVe]

Just an aside, I started watching Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street movies when I was 9. I have never brutally murdered anyone...that I know of.

Obviously I can't speak for everyone.

You hit the nail on the head. Not everyone is you.

[Bone]

You hit the nail on the head. Not everyone is you.
Really though, if you try and correlate violent behavior with brainwashing from movies and videogames... the brainwashing is failing miserably. There simply isn't a correlation.

The only study I've seen come close is that they've proven that watching simulated violence desensitizes you to simulated violence. Well, duh. I wish I got paid the millions for that study! But I haven't seen that correlated to what's really important- empathy for real human pain! I can't see someone stub their toe without making sympathy noises. But I love watching eyeballs and tongue fly from a Raider in Fallout 3.

[Re3x]

This where I think the parent controls on the 360 would work really well. You can set up your account to have the T version or the M version. It would would kind of block the need to have a rating system in some way if the xbox account is set accordingly.

But that is just me in my fantasy world.

[Ghostbear]

This just in, Mortal Kombat is a violent game.

Seriously, wake the fuck up.
*edit Just an fyi, the Joker is a violent, deranged character who has done FAR worse in the comics.

[Bad Buddha]

I was only using a 10mm pistol- why did the radioactive bear explode?
Must have reached critical mass!

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/1994/atommh0.jpg

[Variable Gear]

DC is no stranger to their characters flirting with darker, more adult themes. I hold up my leather-bound Return of the Dark Knight collection as proof.
I agree, but I've heard rumors that a Teen rating was part of Midway's agreement with DC.

The Joker's Fatality, for whatever reason, didn't make the grade for the ESRB.

[Bone]

Must have reached critical mass!

Must be. But overall that perk is just too hilarious, even if it turns my stomach (and Backseat Killer's especially) at times.

[Xerxes]

Still should of been Mr Crowbar...

He's probably shot more people dead and used a gag gun more than he's beat people with crowbars.

[JayVe]

The Joker's Fatality, for whatever reason, didn't make the grade for the ESRB.

Probably because the ESRB believes that shooting defeated opponents in the face is Mature material. I'm all for that.

[inmostlight]

I still think that the capability exists today to please both strict parents and those who want everything "uncensored". For instance, in this case we know the following:

1) Both versions of the fatality exist. From the sound of it, the main difference is camera location.
2) EVERY console that this game will run on has built-in parental controls.

Since both conditions are true, why not have the game decide which version to show based upon the console's parental settings? If it's on the strict setting, show the limited fatality. If it's on a loose setting, show the full Joker fatality. This is an if/then switch and programmatically should not be difficult at all.


Of course, I keep arguing for the same thing when it comes to lyrics in rock band/guitar hero games, but all to no avail. The technology exists to let me hear Frank Black say "marijuana" while bleeping the word out for kids, it's just not being used.

[JayVe]

I still think that the capability exists today to please both strict parents and those who want everything "uncensored". For instance, in this case we know the following:

1) Both versions of the fatality exist. From the sound of it, the main difference is camera location.
2) EVERY console that this game will run on has built-in parental controls.

Since both conditions are true, why not have the game decide which version to show based upon the console's parental settings? If it's on the strict setting, show the limited fatality. If it's on a loose setting, show the full Joker fatality. This is an if/then switch and programmatically should not be difficult at all.


Of course, I keep arguing for the same thing when it comes to lyrics in rock band/guitar hero games, but all to no avail. The technology exists to let me hear Frank Black say "marijuana" while bleeping the word out for kids, it's just not being used.

This sounds like the perfect option in my book, except for one thing. The same parents that can't understand the ratings on the back of the box sure as hell don't know about the parental settings. Often times, parents never touch the game systems.

The box needs to clearly state that it has material that isn't appropriate for children or teens. If the parent wants to go ahead, their choice. The parental control needs to be in place before the game is even purchased, and not left up to the console.

That said, why aren't more companies using the parental controls to alter gameplay experience? Lots of games have a "Blood" option already.

[Hotcod]

Its not about the money. DC does not want to associate its main universe characters with "mature" themes. It's an editorial definition. PG-13 is as high as But DC's definition of mature is anything too much blood and sex. That's why none of their characters appear on their "mature" comics imprint, Vertigo. And that's why their was no blood in The Dark Knight. Blood or not, that movie should've been rated R.

Of course editorial decision may have something to do with money.

So explain to me how the joker shooting some one in the head is still in the game at all then? DC clearly have no problem with the fatality it's self or it would have been removed the thing that they had a problem with is that there main demographic likely to buy this game is going to be in the T band and as such they wanted the T rating. In the US that has meant the changing of the fatality, over here it has not.

[Blue]

So maybe this has been addressed, but can the European version be imported and played? Because if so, I might actually look into that once the holiday insanity passes.

[Squidbot]

http://www.proeurope.org/content/animatedgifs/eu-flag1.gif

[Savok]

He's probably shot more people dead and used a gag gun more than he's beat people with crowbars.
Joker's most memorable shooting with Babara Gordon and she lived. Now Mr Crowbar...

[Bone]

This sounds like the perfect option in my book, except for one thing. The same parents that can't understand the ratings on the back of the box sure as hell don't know about the parental settings. Often times, parents never touch the game systems.
So, this is dangerous territory. Sounds like you want to restrict material based on the carelessness of parents. It's like if a parent said "I can't be bothered to teach my kid to avoid traffic, so let's outlaw vehicles". If a parent really has their kid's interest in mind, they will either learn to use the console, be there when they play it, or NOT BUY IT. It's a horrible excuse that they don't understand the technology- but they will blindly give it to their child?

Same goes for computers. If you can't understand myspace or just the Internet, your child shouldn't have access to the Internet without you being there- period!


The box needs to clearly state that it has material that isn't appropriate for children or teens. If the parent wants to go ahead, their choice. The parental control needs to be in place before the game is even purchased, and not left up to the console. I agree, maybe the consoles should default to having parental controls on. But what will they do to verify your age when you unlock it? Credit card? The parents in these situations are likely just going to hand that over as well.

To me it all comes back to the parents. It's a dangerous world out there, and you either teach, protect, and guide your children... or you don't.

[Raen]

Wait, wait... So for once we're not getting screwed over in Europe? I refuse to believe this. They'll have to add some new feature to the game that completely screws over every European customer. It just wouldn't be a European release without annoying us somehow.

[Xerxes]

Joker's most memorable shooting with Babara Gordon and she lived. Now Mr Crowbar...

We are talking about the masses. Not the comic book shop guys. I had to read wiki about Jason Todd. And that was after they brought him back. Memorable and just cause killing. I don't think it would have looked cooler than a joke pistol followed a the real gun. Just beating someone, big meh.

[Savok]

We are talking about the masses. Not the comic book shop guys. I had to read wiki about Jason Todd. And that was after they brought him back. Memorable and just cause killing. I don't think it would have looked cooler than a joke pistol followed a the real gun. Just beating someone, big meh.
No see you move to a 1st person view through the recipients eyes, as Joker beats you to death while manically laughing.

[Xerxes]

No see you move to a 1st person view through the recipients eyes, as Joker beats you to death while manically laughing.

:|

Ummmm, yeah...

[Savok]

:|

Ummmm, yeah...

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Slades_Downfall/img004-1.jpg

[Xerxes]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/Slades_Downfall/img004-1.jpg

That's a bowl of meh.

[Sl1pstream]

Wait, wait... So for once we're not getting screwed over in Europe? I refuse to believe this. They'll have to add some new feature to the game that completely screws over every European customer. It just wouldn't be a European release without annoying us somehow.

MK vs DC Universe: Only available in French, German, Italian and Spanish.

[Widgetcraft]

Shooting someone, while unaware, in the face with a pistol, point blank, is worth of a Teen rating in your mind? :eek:

That kind of shit should NOT be on television or in games with a Teen rating.

...Yeah, a thirteen year old would totally get his or her mind fried by that, right? What a joke.

[JayVe]

...Yeah, a thirteen year old would totally get his or her mind fried by that, right? What a joke.
:confused:
A 13 year old is precisely the person you do NOT want to be reinforcing the 'shooting people in the face is cool and funny' meme with. I'm not saying it is gonna make 13yr olds snap, but it isn't healthy for developing minds.