Who will win the 2012 Republican nomination?

[Ink Asylum]

I thought it would be interested to run a poll and see who CoG favors to win the Republican Presidential nomination next year. It's close enough that we have a good idea who is running but far enough out that the race hasn't really started yet.

People in the poll were picked as the current top favorites to win on InTrade (http://www.intrade.com/). Nate Silver did the same for a recent post of his (http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/a-graphical-overview-of-the-2012-republican-field/), but excluded Gov. Chris Christie and others who have strongly denied running in 2012. Seemed sensible to do the same.

So make your call, and we'll see who has better prediction skills next year!

[Widgetcraft]

Sarah Palin will win the nomination, lose the election, and finally have the entire party turn on her. It will be the best thing that has ever happened.

[johnperkins21]

I'm going with Jeb Bush.

[National Kato]

I'm going with Tim Pawlenty.

[Dukefrukem]

My boy Mitt !

[Ink Asylum]

I'm going with Mike Huckabee. The Republican base will be much more fired up in 2012 than they weere in 2008, now that they've had four years to freak out about Obama. I think Mitt will be seen as too moderate for many of them, and his religion will turn off even more.

I don't think Sarah Palin will actually run. I believe she favors fame and wealth over actual power and responsibility. She won't want to give up the big checks she gets from speaking engagements and book tours. Even if she does run she'll have such a poorly run campaign that she'll self-destruct.

Huckabee will be the most attractive conservative evangelical left standing for the base to rally around, pushing Mitt out of the top spot.

[Voodoo]

Right now, my best guess is Mike Pence. Bush isn't running for 2012, he plans to run in 2016.

Never mind... http://www.africanaonline.com/2011/02/congressman-mike-pence-will-not-run-for-president-in-2012/

Hmm... This is a difficult question now with Pence having bowed out.

Fucking shit... Palin winning the Republican bid for 2012 may cause my untimely death.

Personally, I'd really like to see Herman Cain get it.

[johnperkins21]

My boy Mitt !
I think his being a Mormon will keep him from winning the nomination. If he were a Democrat, I don't think it would be as big of an issue, but as a Republican, I think it hurts his chances quite a bit. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it happening.

[Generation ABXY]

If they ran, I think Romney, Huckabee, and Palin would all stand a good chance at the nomination. I'm not sure any of them would get my vote, though (like Voodoo, I have someone else in mind).

[fitbabits]

I voted for Mitt.

[Dorkandproudofit]

Sadly, something tells me that Palin will get it. Maybe it's the tea partiers rallying behind her.

[Narradisall]

Palin. Please let it be Palin!

[TheFlyingOrc]

As always, Zombie Reagan.

[pomeroy]

If it's Palin, then the Democrats will be doing backflips. Wasn't there a survey that showed Obama would absolutely crush her recently?

[fitbabits]

If it's Palin, then the Democrats will be doing backflips. Wasn't there a survey that showed Obama would absolutely crush her recently?

I have a feeling that the GOP would do everything in their power to make sure that does NOT happen. Even perhaps going as far as leaking damaging material for public consumption in order to discredit her. She's an asset to the GOP in some ways, a liability in so many others.

[Widgetcraft]

If it's Palin, then the Democrats will be doing backflips. Wasn't there a survey that showed Obama would absolutely crush her recently?

Yep, it was the same survey that showed she would win the nomination :D

[TheFlyingOrc]

If it's Palin, then the Democrats will be doing backflips. Wasn't there a survey that showed Obama would absolutely crush her recently?

That's because a huge percentage of Republicans hate her, too. She has virtually no chance of winning the nomination.

edit: Ugh, she went up at some point more than I expected. Probably old people who like her child dancin' on the TV box.

[carnage11]

If Palin wins and then some how becomes President of the United States of America, grab your guns, because there will be another civil war. It will be the beginning of the end. She's a fucking joke, a reality TV star, a t-shirt of the week.

In all seriousness though, I think Huckabee has the best chance. He seems to be the favorite amongst my Republican friends. However, knowing how things go and how popular reality TV is and how stupid most of America is.....


....I'd better start stock piling ammunition now....


edit: --on second thought. I'm changing my vote to the Anti-Christ.

[TheFlyingOrc]

If Palin wins and then some how becomes President of the United States of America, grab your guns, because there will be another civil war. It will be the beginning of the end. She's a fucking joke, a reality TV star, a t-shirt of the week.

Well, at least it would be nice to have a woman win finally, right?:(

[carnage11]

Well, at least it would be nice to have a woman win finally, right?:(

I'd actually like to see a woman win, and not a white woman either. Like a black woman or a hispanic woman, cause no one fucks with black and hispanic women. Best of both worlds, make her a black and hispanic woman. A black, hispanic, jew woman.

Then..... we would become the most POWERFUL NATION ON EARTH!!


:D

[Wraith]

As always, Zombie Reagan.I'm pulling for Zombie Teddy Roosevelt, personally.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I'm pulling for Zombie Teddy Roosevelt, personally.

FUCK yes. We NEED another like Teddy.

[ShivaX]

FUCK yes. We NEED another like Teddy.

Teddy is a socialist.

Then again so is Ronnie anymore.

I think Newt might pull out the nomination. He tells all the right lies and distorts the truth like noone else. I don't think he could win though. He does well in an echo chamber, but if people actually called him out on his bullshit and hypocrisy he'd be in a tough place. Then again I don't think anyone on the list would really have a good chance of victory. They're either unknowns or batshit.

[Hawkzombie]

My guess? Palin will get the nomination. Why? Because she's a woman. The republicans are gonna have to pull out something unique to defeat the democrats and their first black president. And another well-to-do aged white male won't cut it.

And she'll more than likely win, too. Simply because she's a woman.

[Ink Asylum]

I think Newt might pull out the nomination. He tells all the right lies and distorts the truth like noone else. I don't think he could win though. He does well in an echo chamber, but if people actually called him out on his bullshit and hypocrisy he'd be in a tough place. Then again I don't think anyone on the list would really have a good chance of victory. They're either unknowns or batshit.

I could see Newt pulling out early once he realizes he has no chance and trying to get into the administration of whoever thinks could win. Perhaps even as VP.

[TheFlyingOrc]

I think Newt might pull out the nomination. He tells all the right lies and distorts the truth like noone else. I don't think he could win though. He does well in an echo chamber, but if people actually called him out on his bullshit and hypocrisy he'd be in a tough place. Then again I don't think anyone on the list would really have a good chance of victory. They're either unknowns or batshit.

Unknown doesn't mean anything. There's an SNL sketch from a year before the 92 election with all the potential democratic candidates. Clinton isn't in the sketch.

[Ink Asylum]

In case anyone is interested and didn't go to Nate Silver's post, he made this chart with each candidate placed on two axes. Their circle indicates their InTrade ranking and the color denotes the region of the country they hail from (blue for the Northeast, red for the South, green for the Midwest, and yellow for the West).

http://www.538host.com/gopchart.png

[Ox]

If Palin wins and then some how becomes President of the United States of America, grab your guns, because there will be another civil war. It will be the beginning of the end.
Well, this is a strong argument in favor of Palin.

[Dorkandproudofit]

Teddy is a socialist.

Regulation of a capitalist economy and enforcing antitrust laws is not socialism.

[Wraith]

http://www.538host.com/gopchart.pngUgh. Anytime I see Trump mentioned as even a remote possibility of being a presidential candidate, I just have to shake my head. Is there anyone out there who actually wants him to be in an executive office?

[Generation ABXY]

http://www.538host.com/gopchart.png

Well, I was happy to see Bolton managed to register, at least.

[JayK47]

Me. I will run the same campaign as Hitler and win.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Ugh. Anytime I see Trump mentioned as even a remote possibility of being a presidential candidate, I just have to shake my head. Is there anyone out there who actually wants him to be in an executive office?

Probably Donald Trump and nobody else.

[jeffbax]

Hopefully Gary Johnson

[J Arcane]

My guess? Palin will get the nomination. Why? Because she's a woman. The republicans are gonna have to pull out something unique to defeat the democrats and their first black president. And another well-to-do aged white male won't cut it.

And she'll more than likely win, too. Simply because she's a woman.
Except that a white male is exactly what Obama isn't, and it's the fact that he's not a white male that has a fair deal to do with the absolutely psychotic rage he induces in some parts of the right.

The question is: Will they play to this race warfare, or realize that those people are fucking batshit and ignore them? Or can they even get the moderate vote back at this point? Sure they picked up the House, but they did so on the backs of a lot of infighting and radical rhetoric.

Unknown doesn't mean anything. There's an SNL sketch from a year before the 92 election with all the potential democratic candidates. Clinton isn't in the sketch.
Indeed, this is a good point.

Obama was known, marginally, before hand, but largely dismissed as a candidate for being too obscure and young for the office.
Regulation of a capitalist economy and enforcing antitrust laws is not socialism.

It is in the parlance of the modern right.

[carnage11]

I really hate how in that chart Trump's circle is bigger than Paul's. :(

[Widgetcraft]

I really hate how in that chart Trump's circle is bigger than Paul's. :(

I'd rather have Trump than Paul. I already have to put up with that dumb motherfucker's retarded son.

[carnage11]

I'd rather have Trump than Paul. I already have to put up with that dumb motherfucker's retarded son.

If we're talking about sons, we've already seen one of George Bush's retarded sons, let's not see another. Jeb can't run a state let alone a country.


Really though....Trump?

[jeffbax]

I'd rather have Trump than Paul. I already have to put up with that dumb motherfucker's retarded son.

Yeah cause, trying to make serious suggestions for budget cuts is real dumb. Unlike the status quo spend into oblivion like all the time right? I'm fairly pleased with Rand in the Senate so far. At least he's taking our financial problems seriously.

There's no way Palin will win. Everyone knows it is a non-starter in the general election to put her on the ticket, and there are plenty of Republicans that hate the shit out of her anyway.

[opsin]

I can't say any name on that list doesn't scare me, but does anyone seriously want to vote for the guy who says Bradley Manning should be executed?

"Whoever in our government leaked that information is guilty of treason, and I think anything less than execution is too kind a penalty."

Mike Huckabee

[johnperkins21]

I can't say any name on that list doesn't scare me, but does anyone seriously want to vote for the guy who says Bradley Manning should be executed?
Huckabee is literally insane. At least Palin is just a moron. Huckabee scares me far more than any of the other candidates, though Bachmann might be a close second.

[opsin]

Huckabee is literally insane.

I can't seem to find more than speculation that he's actually looking forward to The Rapture, but that certainly seems like the last thing you want a prospective leader to buy into. Especially with issues in the Middle East ongoing! The GOP list really does scare me...

[MagGnome]

Probably Sarah Palin, as that would be a nice clusterfuck for the whole country.

Either that or another bumbling old man. -_-

[johnperkins21]

The GOP list really does scare me...
That's ok, another Obama term scares Republicans. It's pretty much the way it works.

[Bandango]

I hope Huckabee gets it. I don't know why, but I like him. Maybe it's his bass.

[ShivaX]

I hope Huckabee gets it. I don't know why, but I like him. Maybe it's his bass.

Hes a likable guy, at least until he starts talking about things. Even then hes still pretty likable, especially compared to most. Which is why he probably wont get the nomination. Hes too nice to known liberals and believes in "disagreeing without being disagreeable." Thats like the antithesis of the GOP these days. You paint the other guy as Hitler or Stalin or gtfo.

[VerseD]

The more you can fire up the rabble, the better you do. Does anyone else remember when the Democrats were the party of sentimental weepiness and the Republicans of the pragmatic argument? Now it's the Republican crying into the mic and the Democrat reducing morality to science and numbers.

I couldn't pick who would win the nomination because it is still too early. A lot of those in the poll, including Romney and Huckabee, still have not announced their candidacy. I expect a lot of backstage dealing before one is propped up as the clear leader for the currently split party. Rationally, Huckabee would be the best rival for Obama; but expecting a rational strategy from the party today is like expecting a clear and honest answer from someone with schizophrenia.

Pathos renders charts and records obsolete: to quote Robert Kaplan, "rational argument alone will never fully overcome those who simply and passionately believe."

So I guess just put me down for Palin.

[MagGnome]

I'm going with Tim Pawlenty.

Ugh, that would be terrible. He was an awful governor, and I hope he fades into obscurity.


I don't think Sarah Palin will actually run. I believe she favors fame and wealth over actual power and responsibility. She won't want to give up the big checks she gets from speaking engagements and book tours. Even if she does run she'll have such a poorly run campaign that she'll self-destruct.

I think you're right. The woman quit her job as governor of Alaska so that she could bring in big money.


I have a feeling that the GOP would do everything in their power to make sure that does NOT happen. Even perhaps going as far as leaking damaging material for public consumption in order to discredit her. She's an asset to the GOP in some ways, a liability in so many others.

Are you sure that they could really discredit her? The woman discredits herself on a nigh-weekly basis, yet she still has a large and rabid fan base. Short of catching her molesting children, I don't think she can be "discredited".


Ugh. Anytime I see Trump mentioned as even a remote possibility of being a presidential candidate, I just have to shake my head. Is there anyone out there who actually wants him to be in an executive office?

I'd vote for Trump way before Bachmann. The thought of her running terrifies me even more than Palin. Bachmann is one of the worst people in our government, IMHO.

[carnage11]

Where do I sign up to be one of the children Palin rapes?

[Narradisall]

Can you guys vote Palin (not in the poll, on the actual thing) as it will provide the rest of the world with so much joy.

[ShivaX]

Can you guys vote Palin (not in the poll, on the actual thing) as it will provide the rest of the world with so much joy.

I don't think random invasions and foreign policy failures up to and including possible nuclear wars would be "much joy" for everyone else. I mean Palin would've invaded Iran and NKorea by now and insulted China to the point that we'd likely be on the brink of war.

[Narradisall]

See? That's enough material for at least another 3 COD games!

[Dorkandproudofit]

I mean Palin would've invaded Iran and NKorea by now and insulted China to the point that we'd likely be on the brink of war.

Actually, the first two things there are impossible for a president to do, as Congress is the only branch with the power to declare war.

Insulting China on the other hand? Yeah, she'd definitely do that.

[MagGnome]

Actually, the first two things there are impossible for a president to do, as Congress is the only branch with the power to declare war.

Insulting China on the other hand? Yeah, she'd definitely do that.

Did you sleep through history class?

[Widgetcraft]

Did you sleep through history class?

I'm not sure what you're referencing. Congress has the power to declare war, and the President has command over the armed forces.

Checks-and-balances.

Though, I think the President can apparently deploy the armed forces for up to sixty days without authorization from Congress, so I guess that is enough time to fuck someone hard enough to get them to declare war on us. Kind of ineffectual to give the power to declare war to Congress, in that case.

[Lint of Death]

Reince Priebus for the win.

[Lint of Death]

Also, I thought Huckabee didn't want to run this time around?

[Dorkandproudofit]

Did you sleep through history class?

Yeah, all the presidents who did "police actions" were exeeding their powers as appointed to them by the Constitution.

Did you sleep through history class? :D

[MagGnome]

I'm not sure what you're referencing. Congress has the power to declare war, and the President has command over the armed forces.

Checks-and-balances.

Though, I think the President can apparently deploy the armed forces for up to sixty days without authorization from Congress, so I guess that is enough time to fuck someone hard enough to get them to declare war on us. Kind of ineffectual to give the power to declare war to Congress, in that case.

I was referring to all the times that a president has invaded another country with authorization from Congress. Saying that Palin couldn't invade Iran or North Korea without the approval of Congress is simply not true.

[AntonThaGreat]

Is there a website where I can see each candidates stances on top issues?

[ShivaX]

Actually, the first two things there are impossible for a president to do, as Congress is the only branch with the power to declare war.

Insulting China on the other hand? Yeah, she'd definitely do that.

Yeah, all the presidents who did "police actions" were exeeding their powers as appointed to them by the Constitution.

Did you sleep through history class? :D

You think Palin wouldn't exceed her powers as appointed by the Constitution?

For that matter you think Palin even knows what those powers are anyway?

Yeah technically she couldn't start a war, but after we bomb the shit out of things and lets us know the next day I don't think Iran or NKorea would accept "sorry she didn't have the power to declare war so we're cool" as an excuse.

[Wraith]

Appearing on CNN's "Piers Morgan Tonight" Wednesday night, Trump said the United States is faring poorly and has lost the respect of the world.

"I am seriously thinking about it. I won't make a decision till June," he said. "But I will make a decision and it may surprise people frankly, but I will make a decision sometime prior to June."

"I love this country. I hate what's happened to this country," he added. "We're a laughingstock throughout the world. We're not respected."

...Since we've become a laughingstock throughout the world, we may as well just embrace it. Trump 2012. :eyeroll:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/10/trump.presidency/

[Sandman]

Since we've become a laughingstock throughout the world, we may as well just embrace it. Trump 2012. :eyeroll:

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/10/trump.presidency/

I actually liked what Trump had to say in that interview.

[MagGnome]

When did the US ever have the "respect of the world?" That sounds like some sort of silly nostalgia that isn't based on fact.

[burger]

When did the US ever have the "respect of the world?" That sounds like some sort of silly nostalgia that isn't based on fact.

Since when did the US NOT have the respect of the world. That sounds like some sort of silly leftwing hyperbole that isn't based on fact.

If I had a dollar for every time some one has resorted to the "world hates us" cliche I would be a billionaire. I guess 8 years of Bush caused a lot of people to conveniently forget about the numerous great things the US has done. WWII alone caused half the planet to respect us.

It's sad that it became so cool to rip on the US. :(

[MagGnome]

Oh for fuck's sake... *facepalm*

[Generation ABXY]

A Commie facepalm, no doubt.

[MagGnome]

That's me! A commie to the end. I spit on your freedom!

[Ox]

When did the US ever have the "respect of the world?" That sounds like some sort of silly nostalgia that isn't based on fact.
Like most nations, the US has always been held in various degrees of contempt, fear, respect, admiration, and envy by each foreigner to personal taste. To speak of the US having the "respect of the world" is like speaking of Germany, England, Venice, or China having the "respect of the world" -- never true for more than a fraction, and never the entire opinion of anyone.

You're absolutely right that there is a lot of silly nostalgia about this -- I think I've said the same thing a number of times. Respect is useful to us to the extent it enables us to achieve our foreign-policy goals (which, as Machiavelli would say, is extremely limited). I wish we'd stop thinking of it as an end in itself. And frankly, the vast majority of the world's people have some pretty fucked-up ideas about the proper relationship between peoples; I think we should judge ourselves by our enemies, not our friends.

[ShivaX]

When did the US ever have the "respect of the world?" That sounds like some sort of silly nostalgia that isn't based on fact.

Right up until the end of the Cold War for the most part.

We were never that well liked in some areas, but pre-Vietnam we were generally seen as the good guys in most places. After crap like Nam and Iran it started to drop quite a bit in area, but the first world always respected us. Then again its hard to dis the guys keeping you from being a Soviet satellite, thats reserved for France.

[Narradisall]

I don't think the US is not respected, but recent years have seen a decline, and they seem to have mis-stepped quite a few times. No country has a clean slate.

[Ox]

We were never that well liked in some areas, but pre-Vietnam we were generally seen as the good guys in most places. After crap like Nam and Iran it started to drop quite a bit in area, but the first world always respected us. Then again its hard to dis the guys keeping you from being a Soviet satellite, thats reserved for France.
That's not really true. England and France developed deeply skeptical feelings after we started pressuring for decolonization and particularly after the Suez Crisis. The Third World, of course, was always skeptical of American power -- that's what "Third World" originally meant, after all. At heart, you're talking about a period of time between 1945 and 1953. Maybe less: the Truman Doctrine undoubtedly was seen as interference in the domestic policies of Greece and Turkey by most left-wingers throughout the world, and the division of Korea in 1945 was pretty transparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Military_Government_in_Korea) done without regard for what actual Koreans wanted to do.

[MagGnome]

Like most nations, the US has always been held in various degrees of contempt, fear, respect, admiration, and envy by each foreigner to personal taste. To speak of the US having the "respect of the world" is like speaking of Germany, England, Venice, or China having the "respect of the world" -- never true for more than a fraction, and never the entire opinion of anyone.

You're absolutely right that there is a lot of silly nostalgia about this -- I think I've said the same thing a number of times. Respect is useful to us to the extent it enables us to achieve our foreign-policy goals (which, as Machiavelli would say, is extremely limited). I wish we'd stop thinking of it as an end in itself. And frankly, the vast majority of the world's people have some pretty fucked-up ideas about the proper relationship between peoples; I think we should judge ourselves by our enemies, not our friends.

Thank you, I completely agree with you. I think talking about the US "losing the respect of the world" is comparable to talking about "the good old days". It's based on nostalgia rather than fact.

It's especially silly now, considering how much Obama's election improved perceptions of Americans in many parts of the world.

[Ox]

It's especially silly now, considering how much Obama's election improved perceptions of Americans in many parts of the world.
Yes, and I think this illustrates the limited utility of respect. Certainly our President's election made us cooler in the eyes of many people around the world. But the US being cool again hasn't actually made most of our foreign policy much easier: it's still getting tougher and tougher to get Europeans to contribute military forces in Afghanistan, and asking them to contribute in Iraq is basically impossible. To the extent the current Administration wants new trade deals, those negotiations are no easier. There's little indication we automatically face less risk of terrorism or the Israel-Palestine situation is more tractable. North Korea is just as impossible as ever, and the bright note for us in Asia is entirely due to China being such fuckheads to their neighbors that Vietnam, et al are gravitating to us for protection. The chief benefit I can see is that American tourists abroad are less likely to get shouted at (not a trivial benefit, but less of one I think than most people would hope for).

[MagGnome]

Again I agree.

I'd add more, but my phone hates me today.

[Widgetcraft]

Well, there is no reason we should expect anyone to help us in Iraq, that is distinctly our problem. Afghanistan is another story entirely, though.

[carnage11]

Well, there is no reason we should expect anyone to help us in Iraq, that is distinctly our problem. Afghanistan is another story entirely, though.

It's interesting how we're not rushing to war with Egypt. I guess we don't care about their democrazy? Or perhaps they're oil just isn't good enough, then of course the Egyptian president never tried to have Obama's dad assassinated.

[burger]

It's interesting how we're not rushing to war with Egypt. I guess we don't care about their democrazy? Or perhaps they're oil just isn't good enough, then of course the Egyptian president never tried to have Obama's dad assassinated.

Relax everyone...I've "defused" his post

[VerseD]

The chief benefit I can see is that American tourists abroad are less likely to get shouted at (not a trivial benefit, but less of one I think than most people would hope for).

I still got shouted at: "America? Hey, Obama!" Thumbs up! In Egypt, the Nubians thought that Obama was one of them.

That initial excitement lasted about a year, and then it reverted to what you described: the mix of fear, hate, admiration and envy with which most of the powerful are treated. Still, Obama made it a lot easier for me to debate politics with people, since they could not pull out the "look at your idiot president" card. That's one thing Sarah Palin could restore to the people of the world.

America may not always be respected, but we are generally seen as a preeminent leader of politics and economics, and people in other countries watch what our nation does much more closely than they watch the politics of any other country, and much more than we watch theirs. Everyone was watching Obama's election. It's a responsibility we should not take for granted.

[Ox]

It's a responsibility we should not take for granted.
Certainly I agree that America, to our great chagrin, has a special responsibility in the world. We are the only nation on Earth, possibly in history, with both courage and a conscience. But the important thing is to act properly, not with slavish regard for the sensibilities for the benighted peoples of the world. As the Henry David Thoreau said, "Any man more right than his neighbors constitutes a majority of one."

I had a big thing on how fucking balls-to-the-wall great America is here, but some of the alcohol has been purged from my bloodstream and I'm too reserved to leave it in. Instead I'll say that we should judge ourselves not on the world's respect but on how much we deserve the world's respect; and we should judge the people of the world by how well they recognize the respect they owe us. This will often involve us having a low opinion of the world.

[VerseD]

This will often involve us having a low opinion of the world.

Only if you think we deserve accolades instead of criticism for all our adventurism. Two years abroad deprived me of that conviction, and I'm left with a kind of scathing self-awareness, and a more idealistic than real pride in my national character, unrelated to actual merit. I revel in our flaws because of the good nature behind them, and I realize why foreigners cannot understand it: what they call ignorance I call straightforward simplicity.

I came across something today while editing my writings from last year: a description of the American, prompted by a marine I caroused with on Crete.

Anyway, Hooah John’s full-blooded American spirit, along with other tourists I’ve seen, got me thinking about my own strange and indefinite race. Americans are a stupidly simple and carelessly honest people. They say every criticism should start and end with a complement, but I believe in bluntness. We Americans say exactly what we are thinking, with little barrier between mind and mouth, and by our unmonitored countenance show blatantly our vibrant emotions and passions, and our thoughtlessness, which borders on rude, though this is unintended.

Our minds aren’t made for intrigue or finesse, and in taking action we prefer the hammer to the stiletto. We are better built to invent and fulfill our own ambitions and enterprises, not because of arrogance, but because of an unfamiliarity with moderation, which we consider effete. We operate in most capacities like constant drunks, unrestrained and uninhibited, and others treat us as the sober would. This appears self-deprecating, but it’s not, because as heavy as our hands can be they are dependable and good-natured, with an abhorrence for politics, injustice, and exploitation. At least for most of us.

“Americans are naive, with all the good and bad connotations. We believe that we can change anything, and we believe that we can change anything,” said Eli Pariser, an executive director of Move-On.org, happened to be in Rethymnon long enough to give me that quote. He has also sent me a lot of emails without having ever been introduced. “A lot of people tell me, ‘Haven’t I heard that name before?’ ”

Robert D. Kaplan said something poignant in an introduction to Gogol: "Foreigners often find Americans as a group more than a little hard to take, put off by the overt nationalism, the deep religiosity, the proud vulgarity, the searing public debate, the unashamed sentimentality, the battered but defiant idealism. These are precisely the qualities that are disappearing in Europe," and he goes on to say that the Europeans are mechanical and dispassionate to the point of effeminacy.

As proud as I am of our frontier virtues, I can also see where they lead us into the worst kind of trouble and where they hold us back. I can now deal apathetically and ironically with the thought that Sarah Palin would be president, when, if I had any real rather than idealized patriotism, that thought should fill me with the greatest despair in the nation that could take her seriously as a politician.

[Ox]

Only if you think we deserve accolades instead of criticism for all our adventurism.
I don't think that. But I do tend to find that, no matter how flawed an American project is, most foreign criticism tends to seek out whatever glimmer of merit the project had and claim that that is what was wrong.

The constituents of patriotism and the national character of the American are a little far afield of what I'm capable of tackling right now (to say nothing of the topic of this thread, although I suppose we have 18 months to get back on track). But I will say this: if nominated, I would seriously consider casting a ballot for Palin next autumn. Not because I think she would do a particularly good job (remember, I voted for the current occupant, so that's clearly not my primary concern), but because she probably wouldn't be a disaster and it would be really fun to watch everyone I know contemplate suicide. People overestimate how great their political allies are and how bad their political opponents are.

[VerseD]

The constituents of patriotism and the national character of the American are a little far afield of what I'm capable of tackling right now (to say nothing of the topic of this thread, although I suppose we have 18 months to get back on track).

I'm tempted to start a thread RE: America. Nothing wrong with a little self-dissection.

[burger]

that thought should fill me with the greatest despair in the nation that could take her seriously as a politician.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about Bush and Obama so Palin would simply be par for the course.

I was gonna say that I gave up my hope years ago but then I remembered that I never actually had any to begin with. I'm still amazed that every 4 years people actually believe that their candidate is actually somehow any different or any better. I almost feel sorry for my friends who two years ago had a religious like fervor for Obama but who today simply groan whenever his name is mentioned.

This whole process will repeat itself in 2 years. I'm glad I can just sit on the sideline and make fun of everyone ;)


I'm tempted to start a thread RE: America. Nothing wrong with a little self-dissection.

Good idea...that never happens around here :p

[Superman's Dead]

This whole process will repeat itself in 2 years. I'm glad I can just sit on the sideline and make fun of everyone ;)


What would it take to get you to care about a candidate?

And I'm so sincere, not trying to be a jerk. You have a very unique point of view, which I respect, and I've heard other people say the same thing.

What would someone have to do/say to get your vote, out of curiosity?

(insert Dave Chappelle bit re: discussing voting here)

[Narradisall]

We are the only nation on Earth, possibly in history, with both courage and a conscience.

Genuine question. What's your theory behind this statement?

[MagGnome]

This pretty much sums up my thoughts about Bush and Obama so Palin would simply be par for the course.

I was gonna say that I gave up my hope years ago but then I remembered that I never actually had any to begin with. I'm still amazed that every 4 years people actually believe that their candidate is actually somehow any different or any better. I almost feel sorry for my friends who two years ago had a religious like fervor for Obama but who today simply groan whenever his name is mentioned.

This whole process will repeat itself in 2 years. I'm glad I can just sit on the sideline and make fun of everyone ;)

There's a good chance I will never vote for a president again after the 2008 elections. Almost certainly not for a Democrat or a Republican. I may toss in my vote for a third party, but that feels like a waste of time, sadly. At this point the only thing likely to get me to the polls is if there is some sort of initiative, proposition, etc. on the ballot that I'm passionate about. I didn't bother voting in 2010, much to the chagrin of many of my friends.


Edit - There are few things I dislike more than nationalism. Some of the later posts in this thread have been difficult to read. Yet at the same time I occasionally say things that are probably nationalistic in nature. The world isn't black and white.

[Ox]

Genuine question. What's your theory behind this statement?
There are a lot of countries that are willing to use military force to achieve particular goals, as you well know (most of them happen to be rather undemocratic). And there are a fair few countries, particularly in Europe, which seem at least in part to structure their foreign policy to serve moral principles. But it's hard to think of any countries besides the US in which there is significant public support for what I suppose I might call a "crusade": a costly intervention abroad to achieve a moral good.

Of course, I realize in the light of day that this is an exaggeration: certainly Britain once expended quite a bit of blood and treasure trying to suppress the slave trade, and as MagGnome demonstrated, there's hardly universal American support for the notion that we should ever intervene abroad under any circumstances. I view the British treatment of Tony Blair as emblematic: I certainly had my quarrels with him when I lived there, and I can understand how someone might be opposed to the Iraq War for a variety of reasons. But the specific tack I see in most Blair criticism -- that only a monster would think an invasion to impose a democracy was a legitimate option -- is not one I can countenance.

Edit - There are few things I dislike more than nationalism. Some of the later posts in this thread have been difficult to read. Yet at the same time I occasionally say things that are probably nationalistic in nature. The world isn't black and white.
I'm not sure what you mean by "nationalism" in this context. I have two potentially "nationalistic" views on America:

1. A certain affection for the country because it is mine and because of what it's given me. G.K. Chersterton said, "'My country, right or wrong,' is a thing that no patriot would think of saying. It is like saying, 'My mother, drunk or sober.'" But I have seen my mother drunk; she has her flaws, but she is still my mother. I have an affection for her even when she is in the wrong, and that is not totally dissimilar to my feelings about America even when she is wrong. I wonder who is affectionate for his mother when she is sober but leaves her passed out in the gutter when she drinks.

2. I have a particular moral and political philosophy, as you might imagine. By a strange coincidence, this philosophy also happens to be one which the USA has often followed in its foreign and domestic affairs. Although the country's compliance with righteousness is far from perfect, it is also better at compliance than most others. I acknowledge this.

I'm not sure which of these two are "nationalist" in your view or which pain you so terribly to read.

[Narradisall]

I get your point Ox, I disagree with it, cynic that I am, but I get where your coming from.

I suppose it depends on whether the 'liberation' or Iraq is the end, or whether it is a means to an end. Only history will tell.

[MagGnome]

I guess that I would never equate America to my mother. I'm not attached to this country like many seem to be, and I really don't understand that sort of attachment myself. It's somewhat foreign to me. That's not to say that I think this country is terrible by any means, or that I should "move to Canada", as the cliche goes, but I don't care for the kind of "America is the best country on Earth!" nationalism that is so common in the US.

I love living where I do because my friends and family are here. Beyond that I have no special attachment to the United States simply because it's the United States. I hope that makes some kind of sense.

[J Arcane]

As a Jewish kid from NYC once said to me: "Love people, not places."

[Ox]

I guess that I would never equate America to my mother. I'm not attached to this country like many seem to be, and I really don't understand that sort of attachment myself. It's somewhat foreign to me. That's not to say that I think this country is terrible by any means, or that I should "move to Canada", as the cliche goes, but I don't care for the kind of "America is the best country on Earth!" nationalism that is so common in the US.
I would suggest you try moving to a different country, but not in a "get the hell out of here" sort of way. When I was a snot-nosed punk kid who had lived his whole life in America, I was as indifferent as you are. Being away made me realize how much debt I owed.

As a Jewish kid from NYC once said to me: "Love people, not places."
I like the assumption that my affection is to the geographic area between the Rio Grande and the 49th parallel, rather to the people who happen to reside in that area.

[MagGnome]

I would life to live in another country for awhile.

[VerseD]

When I was a snot-nosed punk kid who had lived his whole life in America, I was as indifferent as you are. Being away made me realize how much debt I owed.

Where does this debt come from?

I've always agreed with James Joyce:

—When the soul of a man is born in this country there are nets flung at it to hold it back from flight. You talk to me of nationality, language, religion. I shall try to fly by those nets.

Davin knocked the ashes from his pipe.

—Too deep for me, Stevie, he said. But a man's country comes first. Ireland first, Stevie. You can be a poet or a mystic after.

—Do you know what Ireland is? asked Stephen with cold violence. Ireland is the old sow that eats her farrow.

I owe my parents something, and my friends and certain teachers; but I've never thought of owing America or the American people any kind of debt for the hand that nationhood had in my development. I don't want to be held back by that.

There's a simple nature in this country to be valued, but also ignorance and neuroticism and sick politics -- and I mean the sloganeering, fear-mongering, and bald slander of Republicans but also of Democrats: none of the names in the poll are exempt from this kind of manipulation, nor is Obama. Politicians take advantage of the good nature of Americans for corporate profits and military adventures. You mentioned these "Crusades" of good will, but there is always an ulterior motive for them. I can't think of any "Crusade" since World War II that achieved the moral goal it was sold with.

I've participated in public life by voting because I feel privileged to have a voice, not out of debt, or because my ignorance has been excited by rhetoric, or because I dream of drastic change. Getting elected will always be more important to most American politicians than doing good work, and if you can get elected in America you probably don't deserve to.

Like I said before, I admire the ideal of America, but I'm unpatriotic about the reality and don't want to be part of it. In fact, I intend to live most of my life abroad.

(This conversation is getting more off topic, but so many people responded to the political question of this thread with jokes and apathy that I feel like my response expresses a common sentiment. Although I bet that not many of you want to move to Buenos Aires with me.)

[J Arcane]

(This conversation is getting more off topic, but so many people responded to the political question of this thread with jokes and apathy that I feel like my response expresses a common sentiment. Although I bet that not many of you want to move to Buenos Aires with me.)
I'd do it just for the caipirinhas.

[MagGnome]

I pretty much agree with VerseD. When are we leaving for Buenos Aires?

[VerseD]

August or September, when the English language classes find out how many students are signed up for the winter term and start hiring teachers -- native English speakers, no other qualifications necessary. The same is true in China, though in Japan, Korea, and Turkey it helps to have a certificate in Teaching English as a Foreign Language, since there's more competition there.

There are so many job opportunities abroad for someone who speaks American English, that there's really no reason to stay. I have friends in Istanbul, Beijing, Kunming, Seoul, and Osaka who work twenty hours a week explaining grammar to kids, make enough to live comfortably in nice cities, and have a small group of expat friends. They get a free ticket to fly back home once a year, usually for Christmas, and at all other times do not have to hear a word of American politics.

[Ink Asylum]

I've always been curious what it's like trying to teach English without knowing the native language of the country you're in. Is it difficult?

[Urizen]

I would suggest you try moving to a different country, but not in a "get the hell out of here" sort of way. When I was a snot-nosed punk kid who had lived his whole life in America, I was as indifferent as you are. Being away made me realize how much debt I owed.

I moved to the US (I don't refer to the country as 'America') for undergrad, and then returned three years after that. I always harbored some negativity towards the US because the world seemed to suffer from its meddling foreign policy for as long as I can remember. I still don't like it playing the role of Third World Cop.

The chest-beating and bravado around American Exceptionalism at the individual level kept me somewhere between queasy and resentful.

Then I started working at a grass roots community organizer which spend a good deal of its time helping poor, unskilled and semi-skilled immigrant workers demand their rights in the workplace. And that experience has really opened my eyes.

To see the weakened, disenfranchised masses from other countries come here and show the strength and resolve to overcome their lot, even while understanding so little English has been amazing. To see the uneducated and impoverished understand what it means to have rights, and believe they can stand up for themselves and demand those rights does nothing short of warm my heart.

These people were denied so much in their native lands, but they came here and were empowered as a result. I love a lot of places, but I have never seen that anything remotely close to that anywhere else.

I'm curious, though. Where have you been outside this nation, besides the UK?

[MagGnome]

August or September, when the English language classes find out how many students are signed up for the winter term and start hiring teachers -- native English speakers, no other qualifications necessary. The same is true in China, though in Japan, Korea, and Turkey it helps to have a certificate in Teaching English as a Foreign Language, since there's more competition there.

There are so many job opportunities abroad for someone who speaks American English, that there's really no reason to stay. I have friends in Istanbul, Beijing, Kunming, Seoul, and Osaka who work twenty hours a week explaining grammar to kids, make enough to live comfortably in nice cities, and have a small group of expat friends. They get a free ticket to fly back home once a year, usually for Christmas, and at all other times do not have to hear a word of American politics.

I really wanted to do this back in my early 20s, and I wish that I had. Perhaps it's something I should consider again now that I'm somewhat in a state of turmoil as far as my future goes.

[VerseD]

I've always been curious what it's like trying to teach English without knowing the native language of the country you're in. Is it difficult?

Most of the students you get will have studied English for a few years in school, enough to have a basic conversation. As a teacher your job would be fine-tuning: add vocabulary, help with always confusing English grammar, explain foreign idioms, and demonstrate your Hollywood accent. A tutor might assign a newspaper article to read, and the next day go over any questions the student has. If you know about business or tech, there's a big demand among foreign businessmen to learn industry (and especially golfing) terminology so they can deal with the Americans.

I'm right now appreciating the irony of turning a thread about the Republican nomination into one about leaving the country. If anyone has more questions about this, send me a PM and I'll tell you all I know.

[diablopath]

Yeah, all the presidents who did "police actions" were exeeding their powers as appointed to them by the Constitution.

Did you sleep through history class? :D

Hey everybody, dork's a constitutional scholar!

oh...wait...

Turns out, he just doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. Oh bother.

[Ox]

Where does this debt come from?
I was educated in American public schools at American public expense. I had a safe childhood thanks to the hard, courageous work of American cops and public servants. I had enough to eat as a child because of American farmers and the American government, and I had a roof over my head because of American courts. American medical researchers and doctors saved my life three times before my 30th birthday (leaving aside vaccines and basic medical treatment).

Everything I have, I owe to Americans. Were they disinterested? No: in almost every instance, the individuals involved received a paycheck for protecting and helping me. My parents also raised me in large part because of the legal consequences of abandoning me. But I don't demand that someone's actions are purely disinterested before I feel gratitude. I receive a paycheck today, yet my clients often are brought to tears in gratitude for my work. And I don't do what I do simply to make money (even if that is a necessary component of getting me out of bed some mornings). I presume others are the same way. You say you "don't want to be held back" by this sort of gratitude; but I find it strange to think that gratitude holds me back.
I'm curious, though. Where have you been outside this nation, besides the UK?
I've only ever lived in the US and UK. I have traveled more extensively in the Americas, Europe, and Asia. I also feel gratitude to Britain, and I suppose I am grateful to every country that has admitted me within its borders, kept me safe and healthy, and shared its life with me for even a brief time. Naturally, however, my debt is greater to the country which has safeguarded and helped me the most.

[Widgetcraft]

Most of the students you get will have studied English for a few years in school, enough to have a basic conversation. As a teacher your job would be fine-tuning: add vocabulary, help with always confusing English grammar, explain foreign idioms, and demonstrate your Hollywood accent. A tutor might assign a newspaper article to read, and the next day go over any questions the student has. If you know about business or tech, there's a big demand among foreign businessmen to learn industry (and especially golfing) terminology so they can deal with the Americans.

I'm right now appreciating the irony of turning a thread about the Republican nomination into one about leaving the country. If anyone has more questions about this, send me a PM and I'll tell you all I know.

Where would you sign up?

[burger]

I was educated in American public schools at American public expense. I had a safe childhood thanks to the hard, courageous work of American cops and public servants. I had enough to eat as a child because of American farmers and the American government, and I had a roof over my head because of American courts. American medical researchers and doctors saved my life three times before my 30th birthday (leaving aside vaccines and basic medical treatment).

Everything I have, I owe to Americans. Were they disinterested? No: in almost every instance, the individuals involved received a paycheck for protecting and helping me. My parents also raised me in large part because of the legal consequences of abandoning me. But I don't demand that someone's actions are purely disinterested before I feel gratitude. I receive a paycheck today, yet my clients often are brought to tears in gratitude for my work. And I don't do what I do simply to make money (even if that is a necessary component of getting me out of bed some mornings). I presume others are the same way. You say you "don't want to be held back" by this sort of gratitude; but I find it strange to think that gratitude holds me back.

I've only ever lived in the US and UK. I have traveled more extensively in the Americas, Europe, and Asia. I also feel gratitude to Britain, and I suppose I am grateful to every country that has admitted me within its borders, kept me safe and healthy, and shared its life with me for even a brief time. Naturally, however, my debt is greater to the country which has safeguarded and helped me the most.

This pretty much sums up my feelings as well...I felt enough debt to the men and women who served and died for this country that I wore the uniform myself.

I almost can't imagine someone NOT feeling they owed a debt to the countless who came before them and sacrificed for the freedoms and riches we enjoy today. You'd either have to have a complete lack of awareness of history or you just don't give a shit.

I'm not just talking about those in the military either...as Ox pointed out every facet of our country was built by people who sacrificed something. To not acknowledge that and feel some amount of gratitude is unthinkable in my mind. The debt we owe them is to first acknowledge that we don't take what they did for granted and then to make sure that what they fought for isn't lost and destroyed.

[Vigil80]

Not to oversimplify the matter, but I have to think that a lot of folks who consider themselves, shall we say, America weary, would find plenty to make them sick of the politics and politicians of another country if they stuck around there long enough. Let's face it, politics in general is not particularly fulfilling.

[burger]

Not to oversimplify the matter, but I have to think that a lot of folks who consider themselves, shall we say, America weary, would find plenty to make them sick of the politics and politicians of another country if they stuck around there long enough. Let's face it, politics in general is not particularly fulfilling.

Agreed....and most likely the things that make them weary of the US are either exaggerated or a complete fabrication.

One of my favorite memories while traveling in New Zealand is the guy who told me he would never come to the US after watching The Shield TV series. I laughed and explained to him that it wasn't representative at all. He actually thought it was completely representative of police in the US.

That would be like someone watching Monty Python or a Hong Kong martial arts movies and thinking that's what the UK and China were like. It's almost sad but not that uncommon.

[Vigil80]

That would be like someone watching Monty Python or a Hong Kong martial arts movies and thinking that's what the UK and China was like. It's almost sad but not that uncommon.
If only, my good man. If only.

[Widgetcraft]

On second thought, let's not go to the U.K., tis a silly place.

[burger]

(You land at Heathrow Airport ans are greeted by immigrations)

Answer me these questions three...

[Superman's Dead]

You guys are crazy. I'm moving to Japan for all the busty women and talking animals I can befriend.

[Narradisall]

Ox's comments on the US are just stupid, blah blah medical, blah blah saved my life three times.

The UK is much better! I was turned onto a newt once.

..... I got better..

[J Arcane]

Government is a service I pay for with my taxes.

I don't owe them anymore than what I pay on my tax bill for doing their jobs.

The only way I would "owe America a debt" is if I hadn't paid up on my income tax for the last several years.

If anything, considering I've over paid for much of the last decade, it's America that owes me.

[burger]

Your taxes don't create rights and freedoms...most of which were secured through sacrifice.

You seem to interpret the word "debt" in a strictly monetary sense. Additionally Ox spoke of the US as a nation and not simply a government. Your taxes allow it to function but they alone didn't built it.

Most of what you enjoy today was paid for by previous generations by means other than tax dollars. You've been propped up today by the suffering and sacrifice of those that came before you. I almost find it appalling that you think that everything you enjoy today was paid for by the taxes you've paid since you turned 18 and got a job.

Look at the events transpiring in Egypt....every future citizen of Egypt who enjoys some amount of increased liberty and justice owes the men and women WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES to topple the government. It's almost comical to think that someday someone will sit around questioning any debt they owe to the countrymen that came before them and the society they helped built through sacrifice and risk.

A government is ultimately the result of the actions and decisions of others...the debt you owe is to ensure that if they've created a fair and just one that it wasn't in vein and will be simply be discarded by some apathetic and decadent future populace.

[VerseD]

I was educated in American public schools at American public expense. I had a safe childhood thanks to the hard, courageous work of American cops and public servants. I had enough to eat as a child because of American farmers and the American government, and I had a roof over my head because of American courts. American medical researchers and doctors saved my life three times before my 30th birthday (leaving aside vaccines and basic medical treatment).

Everything I have, I owe to Americans. Were they disinterested? No: in almost every instance, the individuals involved received a paycheck for protecting and helping me. My parents also raised me in large part because of the legal consequences of abandoning me. But I don't demand that someone's actions are purely disinterested before I feel gratitude. I receive a paycheck today, yet my clients often are brought to tears in gratitude for my work. And I don't do what I do simply to make money (even if that is a necessary component of getting me out of bed some mornings). I presume others are the same way. You say you "don't want to be held back" by this sort of gratitude; but I find it strange to think that gratitude holds me back.

It sounds like we had different experiences. I've never thanked the system in general, only specific people who helped me and would have helped me no matter what flag they flew, who were people and parents and professionals before they were Americans. I help people and participate in my community, but it does not have to be in the US for me to feel like I'm doing good work.

What I meant when I said I don't want to be held back, is that I don't want to feel bound to serve the interests of the US or to defend it or to reimburse it. America had a hand in my development and kept me safe and with some liberties, and I'm thankful for that to a point, but without owing country the same obligation of respect, gratitude, and service that I feel to my mother.

I've been lucky. I never had to deal with medical problems or danger, or to rely on the government for anything beyond the basic rights and services I've paid for, but those basic rights and services would be a privilege in other countries. Urizen’s post is eye-opening. I've always thought of myself as independent and self-determining and autonomous, but no man is an island. You've given me something to think about.

Not to oversimplify the matter, but I have to think that a lot of folks who consider themselves, shall we say, America weary, would find plenty to make them sick of the politics and politicians of another country if they stuck around there long enough. Let's face it, politics in general is not particularly fulfilling.

Rotten politics aren't the reason I'm leaving, but they're the reason I don't feel any obligation to stay. Patriotism, nationalism, duty? What bunk. Pledge your allegiance to people, and there are people in every country.

[J Arcane]

Your taxes don't create rights and freedoms...most of which were secured through sacrifice.

It's been almost 300 years. I think the statute of limitations on how long we're allowed to hold Washington's army over the heads of the populace has well and truly run it's course.

The rest of the military actions in US history were done at the expense of American taxpayers, by soldiers paid from American treasuries filled with those tax dollars.

I have a great respect for military personnel as individuals, but I hold no fealty to their employer anymore than I should stand loyal with McDonalds just because a friend of mine used to work for them.

Love people, not places.

[Superman's Dead]

Love people, not places.


Rotten politics aren't the reason I'm leaving, but they're the reason I don't feel any obligation to stay. Patriotism, nationalism, duty? What bunk. Pledge your allegiance to people, and there are people in every country.

But I think it's possible to love the people who came before, and everything they did to ensure that this country continued as a single entity. From the Founders on down to anyone who wanted to help make America great, thinkers, industrialists, farmers, the military.

America has been through some really rough stuff. Not as bad as other nations, certainly, but still. It's pretty miraculous that it's still standing. This country was crafted and hewn over time, and it's something that binds people together who would disagree about almost everything else. It's not people who do that. Democrats and Republicans will care about different people, but they'll both care about America. That is valuable. A lot of young people don't appreciate it and take the country for granted. (I'm not saying that's what you guys are doing, obviously you've thought a lot about your points of view. A lot of kids at private college haven't)

Also, side note, I think it's very possible to love places. I love the American West. The mountains in Nevada, the California coast and forest, the desert and badlands all over the southwest, the rocks and flats in Utah. It's absolutely beautiful and even though I've seen beautiful things other places, this one is always going to be my favorite.

[VerseD]

A government is ultimately the result of the actions and decisions of others...the debt you owe is to ensure that if they've created a fair and just one that it wasn't in vein and will be simply be discarded by some apathetic and decadent future populace.

I'm not demeaning your service and sacrifice, but I have friends in the military and they aren't there because of ideals. Servicemen who go to war aren't thinking of me, they're thinking of their families and their futures. I feel as much personal gratitude to the Unknown Soldier as you do to the Egyptians who died in Tahrir Square. It's irrelevant to me personally.

It's not that I don't respect that sacrifice or appreciate what the sacrifices of other Americans won, but it does not instill any sense of duty in me just because I was born here. If I went to live for the rest of my life in another country, then the rights I would currently enjoy were always won by past generations of that country, but does that mean I have a debt to Simon Bolivar and Deng Xiaoping?

I'm sorry if that sounds callous, but I hope you can understand what I mean.

EDIT:
Also, side note, I think it's very possible to love places. I love the American West. The mountains in Nevada, the California coast and forest, the desert and badlands all over the southwest, the rocks and flats in Utah. It's absolutely beautiful and even though I've seen beautiful things other places, this one is always going to be my favorite.

What I love most about America is the Pacific Coast. It's really beautiful here. But it would be beautiful whether China or Mexico or the American Indians ruled it.

You did bring up one thing I like about America: that anyone can come and be a part of it. It's not limited to a race or ideology. If you want to come and work and adopt American ways, then you're welcome here. That's the ideal anyway. The reality is not quite as pretty. Hence my ambivalence about the whole thing.

[burger]

It sounds like we had different experiences. I've never thanked the system in general, only specific people who helped me and would have helped me no matter what flag they flew, who were people and parents and professionals before they were Americans. I help people and participate in my community, but it does not have to be in the US for me to feel like I'm doing good work..

You seem to be unaware of the fact that many of the people who have "helped" you are nameless and faceless and it's only through the rights and laws that they secured for you that are they remembered and honored. It's those rights and laws that help contribute to what we call a nation or what you called a "system". In many cases it was the simple fact that their sacrifices took place in the US that it was even possible for anything positive to have been gained.

No one said that only good work takes place in the US or that you should only do good work for the nation you reside in. You seem to be conflating two separate concepts.

Recognize that what your family, the professionals around you and your communities ability to influence your potential is based significantly on the environment that they reside in. One only has to look at countries that enjoy little to no freedom to realize that the vast majority of the things that we take for granted were paid for by previous generations and ensured to us through the "system" they built. If you think nations are ambiguous and interchangeable I almost question what you know about the world. It comes off like a spoiled child who has had everything provided for him and has no idea how anything is paid for and the chain of events out of their control that had to fall in place for them.

Do you ever wonder why our nation and others like it have Veterans Day or any other holiday recognizing the sacrifice or hardships of others? Do you wonder why people today look back at the Civil Rights movement? It's because they don't want the risks that others took to be forgotten. It's important for people to understand that laws and rights we take for granted today were paid for no more than 50 years ago and at great risk.

Just pulling one example out of the air...think of the debt many feel they owe to someone like Rosa Parks. There's a reason every city in America has a street named after her. What she did was important, took tremendous courage and helped changed the direction of this country. We all her a debt and the change in the system that she contributed to. That's a part of this nation's history. It's an act that helps define who we are and how we live.

[VerseD]

No one said that only good work takes place in the US or that you should only do good work for the nation you reside in. You seem to be conflating two separate concepts.

Then I don't know what you're after. I recognize the role that the US had in my development, am grateful for the benefits of living here, but I do not feel obligated to serve, honor, respect, or progress the US in any way. There's people who sacrifice for change in every country, and I'm grateful to all of them in equal measure.

My opinion must seem wrong to you, but it's not misinformed. I've been to more than thirty other countries, and in every country parents sacrifice for their children, help their neighbors, and work to make the next generation better than theirs. You would not be a savage if you were born in another country, and it's not the exclusive right of Americans to have a good life. It's been my experience that people in many other countries live better lives than we do, even with fewer personal liberties and poorer economies. They do not conflate liberty with freedom. Those are two separate concepts.

Because I was born in America I have a useful language, a good passport, a potent currency, and more opportunity than most, but that does not entitle America to any sense of ownership over me.

[Ox]

Government is a service I pay for with my taxes.

I don't owe them anymore than what I pay on my tax bill for doing their jobs.
I suppose that might hold true for me if I believed I had paid enough income taxes to fully compensate the government for what it gave to me. But I don't, and given the tremendous benefits I have received, I don't think I'll ever pay that much.

If you have received so little from others that your financial contributions are adequate to fully compensate, perhaps you should feel no gratitude. But I thank the staff at a restaurant at the end of the meal, and I'm sincere when I do so. I tip, too. After all, I only ever purchase something because I believe it will provide more benefit to me than the asking price will cost me. I know public servants and others who accept less in the way of salary because they genuinely want to help. My doctor demands a certain amount of money for treatment, but it's minuscule in comparison to the benefit I receive. That difference is a difference I make up in gratitude, even though I don't volunteer to shovel his walk for him in the winter.

As VerseD points out, there are self-sacrificing people in every society, and I understand those in other societies who feel a debt to their own societies for that reason. But given that I haven't suggested others should feel the same way I do, it's interesting how offensive my own gratitude is to some of the people here. How dare I feel obliged to others?

[J Arcane]

It's not your indebtedness that bothers others, it's the implication that the rest of us are some how ungrateful or immoral for not feeling the same.

Here, for example, you take the extra time to compare my own philosophy to that of a guy who stiffs a waiter on a tip.

If you attack people's moral beliefs you shouldn't be surprised if they respond on the defensive.

[Ox]

Implied others were ungrateful? Dude, you said you felt no debt to the government. Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you don't feel gratitude. VerseD also suggested he feels no debt to "American society", although he does feel gratitude to specific individuals. I haven't implied anything of the sort, I merely pointed out that I feel differently and tried to explain why when questioned.

As for immorality: as I pointed out, I've been an unusual beneficiary of American largesse. I didn't compare you or your feelings to anything. I did compare my feelings toward America to my feelings at a restaurant. I've actually been quite careful to point out my disagreements with others without accusing anyone else of being reprobate or comparing anyone's philosophy to anything. To the maximum extent people can discuss such a disagreement without being accusatory, I have done that. If this constitutes an "attack" in your mind, that's due to your imputations, not my implications.

[VerseD]

Explaining an opinion isn't the same as an attack. Each of us necessarily feels that the force of morality is behind our views, but explaining that morality doesn't imply that everyone else is amoral or in need of correction.

In this case, different experiences mean that everyone has a different relationship with their country, and I can accept that. I think most of our views are secured by enough thought not to come loose when someone speaks to the contrary, and its interesting to hear other opinions.

As it is, I can appreciate Ox's metaphor. I don't feel inclined to leave America a tip, no more than I would at a fast food restaurant. Anyway, I eat most of my meals at home.

[MagGnome]

As it is, I can appreciate Ox's metaphor. I don't feel inclined to leave America a tip, no more than I would at a fast food restaurant. Anyway, I eat most of my meals at home.

For some reason this made me laugh.

Ouch. :o

[J Arcane]

And there goes the backpedaling.

The comparison was made, and it was made for a reason. Don't do me the further insult of pretending you didn't mean anything by it.

I'm not that much of an idiot.

[ShivaX]

Can't we get back to realizing how terrible the 2012 line up for the GOP is right now? :)

I'd say we can hope a Barak Obama appears out of nowhere and surprises us all, but I'm not sure the GOP has any magic left in it right now. Unless they reanimate Ronnie and he runs...

[VerseD]

NBC and the Wall Street Journal conducted a poll this week (http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-donald-trump-presidential-candidate-20110407,0,6946797.story): Mitt Romney leads with 21 percent, and Huckabee is tied with Donald Trump for second place, each with 17 percent. It is a sad day for Huckabee.

The rise of Trump, a television personality, wealthy businessman, real-estate agent, developer and owner of beauty pageants, is a testament to the power of media publicity and his pugnacious personality, as well as to the weakness of the Republican field of at least a dozen possible presidential aspirants.

[Ox]

Polls this early are meaningless, but it's a little weird they didn't include Paul (and I am certainly not a Pauloid).

[Wraith]

In other Trump/ridiculous related news, he's going to drive a convertible Camaro pace car at the Indy 500 (link (http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2011/donald-trump-to-drive-camaro-convertible-pace-car-at-indy-500.html)).The announcement prompted lots of speculation about what Trump will do with his helmet-like mane during the drive. He told ESPN that he will probably wear a hat.

[Superman's Dead]

Trump hounding this whole birth certificate thing is...really interesting.

It's obviously a strategy of some sort, but does he really think he'll do better now than Birthers did in 2008?

[Ox]

Donald Trump can't win the nomination. If he ran a sober and responsible campaign while still being Donald Trump, why would the news cover him? But if he bandies about Birther stuff, the press will slaver at the opportunity to cover him. It's a perfectly reasonable strategy to get media attention.

[VerseD]

But his is the strategy of a used-car salesman, not a statesman. Trump is that lowest species of moron who won't take advice from nobody, including a campaign manager. What strategist would allow him to reply to a column in this petty manner?

Even before Gail Collins was with the New York Times, she has written nasty and derogatory articles about me. Actually, I have great respect for Ms. Collins in that she has survived so long with so little talent. Her storytelling ability and word usage (coming from me, who has written many bestsellers), is not at a very high level. More importantly, her facts are wrong!

He goes on to spout the same nonsense of Obama's Kenyan birth that was disproven years ago, but I think he really believes it: here is a self-made man of action rather than thought, and it is his nature to accept the most convenient truth. Collins made a typically peevish reply, concluding:

Recent polls have shown Trump running second among potential Republican primary voters. I believe this is not so much an indication of popularity as a desperate plea to be delivered from Mitt Romney.

I can agree with that. There is no frontrunner for the Republican ticket, and the barrenness of the field is the only reason that a caricature of pompous capitalist vanity like Trump can garner so much attention.

[Widgetcraft]

(coming from me, who has written many bestsellers)

Is that grammatically correct? It certainly doesn't sound right. Maybe it works grammatically but is just a really poor way to get his message across.

I can agree with that. There is no frontrunner for the Republican ticket, and the barrenness of the field is the only reason that a caricature of pompous capitalist vanity like Trump can garner so much attention.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: No serious candidate is going to blow their load on 2012, knowing that Obama will win against them, regardless. Mitt Romney is the only person even being talked about right now who is anything more than some random crank.

[MagGnome]

Trump has actually written best-sellers?

I would be shocked if said "best-sellers" were not ghost-written.

[Generation ABXY]

Trump has actually written best-sellers?

I would be shocked if said "best-sellers" were not ghost-written.

To be fair, nothing says a best-seller has to be good, Mags (though I can't speak to that, one way or the other).

[J Arcane]

Trump has actually written best-sellers?

I would be shocked if said "best-sellers" were not ghost-written.
He wrote a bunch of self-help, get-rich type books, which were particularly popular back in the 80s before everyone realized what a con man and a fraud he was.

Thrift stores around here used to be lousy with his books, but I think they've started throwing them all away.

[VerseD]

I just like the idea of free market grammar -- that Trump's books sold well, and therefore he is an unimpeachable master of vocabulary and narrative.

[burger]

Trump has actually written best-sellers?

I would be shocked if said "best-sellers" were not ghost-written.

Why?

(too short)

[National Kato]

Trump has actually written best-sellers?


Snooki has written (http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/20/snookis-novel-an-extended-nytimes-best-seller/) a bestseller.

[Narradisall]

Twilight was a best seller!

[National Kato]

Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour has announced he will not seek the 2012 Republican Presidential nomination.

Judging by the CoG vote, which is a sure-fire bellwether for the political chances, we already knew this weeks ago. :)

[Ink Asylum]

Well, damn. The Huckster just announced he won't be running. I lose!

[carnage11]

Well, damn. The Huckster just announced he won't be running. I lose!

I think God told him not to. So it's probably best.

[Ink Asylum]

He probably had a really good chance of winning not just the nomination but the presidency, depending on how the economy was next year. He appeals to a lot of the base but he has an "aw shucks" appeal for the media and public. I think Obama dodged a bullet tonight.

[MagGnome]

Thank goodness. One less nutjob in the race.

[Narradisall]

I was under the impression they were all nutjobs?

[Widgetcraft]

He probably had a really good chance of winning not just the nomination but the presidency, depending on how the economy was next year. He appeals to a lot of the base but he has an "aw shucks" appeal for the media and public. I think Obama dodged a bullet tonight.

I'm pretty sure he would get taken apart in a serious national race. He probably realized that and decided to cut his losses rather than endanger what he has going right now.

[Ink Asylum]

He does have a cushy gig at Fox News, after all.

[MagGnome]

I was under the impression they were all nutjobs?

Pretty much.

[National Kato]

Trump is out. (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/abc-news-trump-not-running-for-president.php?ref=fpa) Oh well, I would've loved to have him in the debates. The comedy material would be endless.

However, he didn't go out without some of his typical ego in place:

"I maintain the strong conviction that if I were to run," he said, "I would be able to win the primary and ultimately, the general election."

[MagGnome]

Yeah, he's convinced he could win, yet he's not running.

He wouldn't win.

[Ink Asylum]

"I maintain the strong conviction that if I were to run," he said, "I would be able to win the primary and ultimately, the general election."

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2376971/Forum%20Images/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes.jpg

[carnage11]

L6D3uPLlCu8

[National Kato]

Why is the Ron Paul 2012 campaign using Kratos' font?

[Ink Asylum]

Kratos was a Libertarian, didn't you know?

[MagGnome]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2376971/Forum%20Images/The_Fox_and_the_Grapes.jpg

What a perfect image for that quote. Kudos!


Kratos was a Libertarian, didn't you know?

He liberated thousands of beings from this mortal coil.

[Hawkzombie]

He liberated thousands of beings from this mortal coil.

gxNiMwf4s0o

[Panthera]

I'm told people worship Obama - who better to oppose a god?

[Panthera]

http://i.imgur.com/NU7uF.jpg

[MagGnome]

That's fantastic!

[National Kato]

John Lithgow recites (http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/387033/may-19-2011/john-lithgow-performs-gingrich-press-release), verbatim, Newt Gingrich's spokesperson's recent press release (http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/05/newt-spokesman-launches-anti-media-tirade-casts-gingrich-as-courageous-survivor.php) regarding the media's attack on his campaign.

Excerpt:

The firefight started when the cowardly sensed weakness.They fired timidly at first, then the sheep not wanting to be dropped from the establishment's cocktail party invite list unloaded their entire clip, firing without taking aim their distortions and falsehoods. Now they are left exposed by their bylines and handles.

But surely they had killed him off. This is the way it always worked. A lesser person could not have survived the first few minutes of the onslaught. But out of the billowing smoke and dust of tweets and trivia emerged Gingrich, once again ready to lead those who won't be intimated by the political elite and are ready to take on the challenges America faces.The entire press release is astounding.

[RandoM51]

Daniels is out, the one person who voted for him will have to switch allegiances. :P

[VerseD]

In Gingrich's words:

Let me say on the record, any ad which quotes what I said on Sunday is a falsehood. Because I have said publicly those words were inaccurate and unfortunate.

If anyone who quotes what you say is a liar, then is everything you say a lie?

[ShivaX]

In Gingrich's words:



If anyone who quotes what you say is a liar, then is everything you say a lie?

Its a pretty shrewd tactic.

"You can't quote me on the things I said."

What funny is I had a little respect for the guy for the first time in a long time, then he pussied out and he actually dipped lower than I thought possible.

[Dorkandproudofit]

BAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! (http://twitter.com/#!/NewtsSheep)

*cough* *pant* Newt's sheep on twitter... hee hee... *snort*

[MagGnome]

Pawlenty screwed Minnesota, and now he wants to screw the whole country!

[ShivaX]

Pawlenty screwed Minnesota, and now he wants to screw the whole country!

You're just mad he didn't call the next day.

[MagGnome]

You're just mad he didn't call the next day.

That is disgusting. :eek:

[ShivaX]

Looks like Bachman is gonna run for the nomination.

Get your popcorn, its gonna be a stupid, crazy ride.

[MagGnome]

Ugh, I just wish she would disappear. Vanish without a trace. Get swallowed up by a whale...something to that effect.

She's won the last two elections by a very narrow margin. I wonder if the people who vote for her don't mind the fact that she spends so much time focused on herself as opposed to her constituents? She's an embarrassment to Minnesota.

[Ink Asylum]

Having her bringing the crazy to Republican debates is a good thing in my mind. She can disappear after she's done that damage.

[Generation ABXY]

Looks like Bachman is gonna run for the nomination.

Does this mean Mags' chances at a Pawlenty/Bachman ticket are dwindling, then? :(

[MagGnome]

Eww, you shut your dirty mouth.

[Matthias]

You know, I (tentatively) wish Robert Gates would run. He's proven his military capabilities, and has shown some amount of political acumen and resolve in his dealing with Congress and shakedown of the military. While he hasn't had reason to broadcast his opinions on social and economic policies, he was well-liked as president of Texas A&M that spent 5 years helping the school develop and address its weaknesses.

[OldJadedGamer]

I really hope its Palin so that Obama gets an easy road to a second term.

[Xerxes]

Why is the Ron Paul 2012 campaign using Kratos' font?

When i saw this I just laughed and laughed. Be great if someone stole Sony's Spiderman movie font.

In 2024 when I run under my "just a regular guy" platform, I'm going to use Comic Sans. You people really just really love that font. :D

[Ox]

I've been flirting with a few candidates, but the more I read about Jon Huntsman, the more I like him. His flaw, though, is a big one: while semi-openly contemplating a White House run, he was our ambassador to China. Ambassadors are charged with representing our government and people abroad, and it troubles me that his potential candidacy against our President may have created an impression of weakness or dissent in Chinese minds. I'm glad he was willing to serve under a President he disagrees with, but I hope he at no time ever suggested to the Chinese that there was any daylight between him and our government.

That said, it's obvious that the Republican Party cannot win if it caters to the likes of me, and I think he's in no danger of being nominated.

Oh, and according to Wikipedia, he's a high school dropout. Which is kind of hysterical.

[TheKeck]

That said, it's obvious that the Republican Party cannot win if it caters to the likes of me, and I think he's in no danger of being nominated.

Oh, and according to Wikipedia, he's a high school dropout. Which is kind of hysterical.

He's also got Mitt Romney's religious problem.

[Ink Asylum]

He accepted a job from Obama. That's going to be a huge hurdle in the primary.

[Serapth]

Republicans are going to put forward a female candidate, just comes down to if a certain someone enters the ring.

In the past I would have thought Steele, but no fucking chance of that now.

[Panthera]

I've been flirting with a few candidates,

When the next sex scandal hits, you heard it here first.

[MagGnome]

Tim Pawlenty and Ox caught in a Duluth hotel room?

*shudder*

[carnage11]

Tim Pawlenty and Ox caught in a Duluth hotel room?

*fap*

Obligatory, #fixthatforyou. :p

[Ox]

I think the anti-Mormon sentiment is overplayed -- if there's one constant in the world, it's reporters being eager to declare Republicans bigots -- and anyway Huntsman is not particularly devout. Which might, of course, be its own problem, but at least it's a different problem from Romney.

I really have trouble imagining a significant portion of the Republican base viewing the ambassadorship as a drawback. Maybe if Huntsman had been in a policy-creation position domestically, sure. But I suspect an ambassadorship is like military service: by definition honorable and admirable, particularly if you have misgivings about the Administration. This might be my lawyerly bias, though.

[TheKeck]

I think the anti-Mormon sentiment is overplayed

Well, on a personal level, I would hope you're correct.

[RandoM51]

Huntsman has announced.

http://www.jon2012.com/

[Reverant]

Bachmann is officially in:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/bachmann-is-in-officially/

Rolling Stone has an article about her this month by Matt Taibbi. As usual, it's prone to ad hominem attacks and gross hyperbole, but the grain of truth hidden within is somewhat perturbing.

[J Arcane]

So are we gonna have to have a batshit woman in every fucking election now?

[National Kato]

I read that Taibbi article and rolled my eyes at how much he opines instead of just states the facts, which are powerful enough as is. Bachmann is a determined candidate, as anyone who thinks they have a divine purpose is, but her popularity and bedrock beliefs scare me.

[MagGnome]

Bachmann is psycho and a terrible person in general. Her chances of winning are thankfully slim. I can't imagine her being in the White House.

She's a constant embarrassment to Minnesota.

[ShivaX]

Maybe Bachmann wont play the "I'm just a helpless woman" card as much as Palin did.

I'm sure she'll play the "I'm fucking batshit crazy" card constantly, its the only one she really has.

[Serapth]

Ok, i'm pretty sure I am mixing people up here, Bachmann isn't the "I am not a witch" chick, is she???

[National Kato]

Ok, i'm pretty sure I am mixing people up here, Bachmann isn't the "I am not a witch" chick, is she???

No, that was Christine O'Donnell, who's been Maher-ed.

Here's Bachmann (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/cbs-bob-schieffer-calls-out-bachmann), being evasive when called to task for misrepresenting facts and/or outright lying.

[diablopath]

Ok, i'm pretty sure I am mixing people up here, Bachmann isn't the "I am not a witch" chick, is she???

That was Christine O'Donnell.

tGGAgljengs

EDIT: Dammit, Kato. Oh well, I get credit for linking the video.

[Serapth]

Ahhhhh, thanks guys, I knew I was wrong on this, and couldn't fathom this chick running on the national stage, but crazy shits a foot!

[Serapth]

Just watched the Bob Schieffer video linked, wow, he really should hold her to task much much much more firmly than he did.

[ShivaX]

Just watched the Bob Schieffer video linked, wow, he really should hold her to task much much much more firmly than he did.

Gotcha Journalism!!!

[J Arcane]

Bachmann supports the teaching of intelligent design in public school science classes.[118] During a 2003 interview on the KKMS Christian radio program Talk The Walk, Bachmann said that evolution is a theory that has never been proven one way or the other.[119]

Bachmann opposes minimum wage increases.

In a 2001 flyer, Bachmann and Michael J. Chapman wrote that federal policies manage a centralized, state-controlled economy in the United States.[124] She wrote that education laws passed by Congress in 2001, including "School To Work" and "Goals 2000", created a new national school curriculum that embraced "a socialist, globalist worldview; loyalty to all government and not America."[124] In 2003, Bachmann said that the "Tax Free Zones" economic initiatives of Republican Governor Tim Pawlenty were based on the Marxist principle of "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs."[125]

Bachmann has called for phasing out of Social Security and Medicare:
...what you have to do, is keep faith with the people that are already in the system, that don’t have any other options, we have to keep faith with them. But basically what we have to do is wean everybody else off.[131][132]

Bachmann says in dealing with Iran, diplomacy "is our option", but that other options, including a nuclear strike, shouldn't be taken off the table.[133]

Bachmann supports both a federal and state constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage and any legal equivalents.[137][not in citation given] In support of a constitutional amendment she proposed to ban same-sex marriage,[138][139] In 2004, the Star Tribune reported that Bachmann said of people who are gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered, "We need to have profound compassion for people who are dealing with the very real issue of sexual dysfunction in their life and sexual identity disorders".[140][141] Bachmann has praised the controversial Christian youth ministry You Can Run But You Cannot Hide International, appearing as a keynote speaker at their fundraisers.[142][143][144]

For those of you unfamiliar, You Can Run... is the same group whose founder was the one who gave that prayer at the Minnesota house before the gay marriage vote which he closed by stating that Obama doesn't believe in Jesus, has stated on his radio show that Muslim desire to execute homosexuals is the result of God finding ways to enforce his laws, and that apparently homosexuals molest "on average of 117 people before they're found out". (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#38633909)

Sounds like a real winner.

[National Kato]

Here's Bachmann claiming John Wayne was from Waterloo, Iowa, just like her, and that is the spirit she also shares. However, it wasn't John Wayne the actor, but John Wayne Gacy, the serial killer.

PsLfL9vMaUY

You can't make this shit up.

[MagGnome]

Ahhhhh, thanks guys, I knew I was wrong on this, and couldn't fathom this chick running on the national stage, but crazy shits a foot!

Bachmann is at least as crazy as Christine O'Donnell, if not more so.

She once hid in the bushes outside of a gay-rights rally and spied on the protestors. That's just one example of her many crazy moments.

There's also the time she assaulted President Bush. (http://wonkette.com/301955/bachmann-licks-bush-yet-again)

[Xerxes]

44mqiBrB0zI

[MagGnome]

That video of her talking about John Wayne (Gacy) is priceless! :D

[ShivaX]

That video of her talking about John Wayne (Gacy) is priceless! :D

I kinda like how she talks about Waterloo like she knows anything about it.
Waterloo votes Democrat.

Edit:
I also like this:
Bachmann said New York's state legislature and governor have the right under the Tenth Amendment to legalize gay marriage, which they did Friday night and early Saturday. But, Bachmann added, she also backs a federal constitutional amendment that would define marriage as between a man and a woman.

You can pass laws to legalize gay marriage and thats perfectly fine. I'd really like to pass a law that would never allow you to ever do that though.

[National Kato]

I kinda like how she talks about Waterloo like she knows anything about it.


Well, she was born there. :D

But if you're going to claim the 'spirit' of John Wayne, you might want to make sure that person didn't kill young boys dressed as a clown.

[Xerxes]

oh you guys think it's a gaffe. She was serious. She is going to murder the competition. ^_^

[Hemalin]

Bachmann said New York's state legislature and governor have the right under the Tenth Amendment to legalize gay marriage, which they did Friday night and early Saturday. But, Bachmann added, she also backs a federal constitutional amendment that would define marriage as between a man and a woman. I thought she was a big state's rights advocate.

[roboninja]

I thought she was a big state's rights advocate.

Only when it's the right states' right rights.

[Ink Asylum]

State's rights advocates are, more often than not, huge hypocrites ready to use Federal power whenever states are doing things they don't like.

[VerseD]

To be fair, I would also prefer that states pick up where the federal government fails to do what I would like -- on same-sex marriage, for example -- though I normally put more faith in the Fed.

[Superman's Dead]

I don't get it. She has been proved, repeatedly, of essentially lying. Half of the numbers she says are provably false. She lies. Why would people vote for a liar? One who lies to them? And everyone knows it?

[National Kato]

I don't get it. She has been proved, repeatedly, of essentially lying. Half of the numbers she says are provably false. She lies. Why would people vote for a liar? One who lies to them? And everyone knows it?

Because her lies resonate with the emotions of a populace. At this point, for many, it's not about truth - it's about who's side you're on.

[Xerxes]

Because her lies resonate with the emotions of a populace. At this point, for many, it's not about truth - it's about who's side you're on.

http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f299/Umbrax3/CaptAmer_213x50.jpg

[MagGnome]

I don't get it. She has been proved, repeatedly, of essentially lying. Half of the numbers she says are provably false. She lies. Why would people vote for a liar? One who lies to them? And everyone knows it?

She badmouths Obama, is against those darn gays, and is a "Christian woman". For many that's enough.

[J Arcane]

Because her lies resonate with the emotions of a populace. At this point, for many, it's not about truth - it's about who's side you're on.She badmouths Obama, is against those darn gays, and is a "Christian woman". For many that's enough.
Bingo. "Truthiness" in action.

It doesn't matter whether the statement is true, it matters whether it "sounds true" to the ears of those who already believe the conclusions it supports.

Like douchebag "You Can Run" guy. His listeners don't give a shit that "Homosexuals molest 117 people" is a completely made up statistic, because they already believe homosexuals are evil and molest children, so he's simply telling them something they already "know".

[Hotcod]

In some ways I wish there was a independent fact checking body that was able to impose a fine and force a retraction for anything said that is provably false else people are removed from running for office... but then again it would be corrupt and any one who was happy to lie would simply make up a story about how that body is out to get them and so make them self's look like the underdog.

[MagGnome]

Bachmann supporters alter Wikipedia to turn John Quincy Adams into one of the Founding Fathers. (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/06/28/michelle-bachmann-supporters-alter-wikipedia-to-make-john-quincy-adams-a-founding-father/)


She stated that John Quincy Adams worked tirelessly to end slavery. When George corrected her and informed her that John Quincy Adams was not a Founding Father she insisted that he was.

Now it appears that her supporters have altered Wikipedia to make it appear that John Quincy Adams was a Founding Father, even though he was only a child when his father John Adams, America’s second President, signed the Declaration of Independence.


This part made me laugh:

Michelle Bachmann also misspoke yesterday, saying that John Wayne was born in Waterloo, Iowa, when in reality John Wayne Gaycee the serial killer was born in Waterloo, Iowa. The Wikipedia page for John Wayne was also changed to make his birthplace Waterloo, Iowa, even thought John Wayne was born in Winterset, Iowa.

[digitalErich]

It's hilarious that they're changing Wikipedia to match her idiocy. It's even more hilarious that the people doing this are idiotic enough to think changing Wikipedia matters.

[VerseD]

My God, are we living in a dystopian novel?

[Xerxes]

Wait, getting rid of minimum wage. I know I'm green but I mean is there really people behind that?

[National Kato]

Wait, getting rid of minimum wage. I know I'm green but I mean is there really people behind that?

Bachmann's theory is that if we eliminate Minimum Wage, then employers can afford to hire more workers, thus ending unemployment.

What she seems to overlook is that we'd then have 'employed' people earning shit wages...but hey! low unemployment! ;)

[Xerxes]

Bachmann's theory is that if we eliminate Minimum Wage, then employers can afford to hire more workers, thus ending unemployment.

What she seems to overlook is that we'd then have 'employed' people earning shit wages...but hey! low unemployment! ;)

That's what I was think. So if i'm making $2.50 a hour, it's all good?

That's Bachmann eyes crazy.

[Zecon]

Well, that was fast. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43570552/ns/politics-decision_2012/)
While Rep. Michele Bachmann, R-Minn., has forcefully denounced the Medicaid program for swelling the "welfare rolls," the mental health clinic run by her husband has been collecting annual Medicaid payments totaling over $137,000 for the treatment of patients since 2005, according to new figures obtained by NBC News.

When asked by anchor Chris Wallace on "Fox News Sunday" about the story's assertion that her husband's counseling clinic had also gotten federal and state funds, Bachmann replied that it was "one-time training money that came from the federal government. And it certainly didn't help our clinic."

Gee, I wonder why it didn't help, you seem so honest and forthcoming.

[Zecon]

That's what I was think. So if i'm making $2.50 a hour, it's all good?

That's Bachmann eyes crazy.

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/110194/thumbs/s-BACHMANN-large300.jpg

Good luck sleeping tonight, bitches.:D

[aVaKus]

Crazy Eyes' Hubby.

D8oyA5JV7kA

[MagGnome]

Ugh, he's a nutjob as well. I can't believe that people can still say that kind of bullshit with a straight face.

[rein]

This part made me laugh:
Michelle Bachmann also misspoke yesterday, saying that John Wayne was born in Waterloo, Iowa, when in reality John Wayne Gaycee the serial killer was born in Waterloo, Iowa. The Wikipedia page for John Wayne was also changed to make his birthplace Waterloo, Iowa, even thought John Wayne was born in Winterset, Iowa. I saw that. I literally laughed out loud.

I've been a Democrat (raised by Republican parents) most of my life. Even I am disappointed with what the Republicans are bringing to challenge Obama. I might be a Dem but not a fan of this President up to this point. Hell, I'm disappointed with the whole Party. Scratch that, the whole government right now.

[Narradisall]

Wait, getting rid of minimum wage. I know I'm green but I mean is there really people behind that?

But if minimum wage wasn't needlessly inflating wages things would be cheaper!

[Xerxes]

http://mycheats.1up.com/view/imageraw/62968/fallout_3_head_explosion.jpg

I just noticed that Kristen Wiig looks like Bachmann when she did that Christine O'Donnell parody. Crazy eyes and all.

[muddi900]

But if minimum wage wasn't needlessly inflating wages things would be cheaper!

But the lowest income bracket would have less money, so less people would by stuff, increasing inflation!

[Shrinn]

But the lowest income bracket would have less money, so less people would by stuff, increasing inflation!

And then gas prices would plummet so that people could afford to drive to work! Oh wait, no.

[Narradisall]

But the lowest income bracket would have less money, so less people would by stuff, increasing inflation!

I think we all know that poor people don't buy stuff anyway, the money will trickle down from the rich of course. ;)

[muddi900]

Money is like a stream...a stream of golddust.

[Ink Asylum]

A golden stream from the rich raining down on the heads of the poor.

[Wraith]

Bachmann supporters alter Wikipedia to turn John Quincy Adams into one of the Founding Fathers. (http://www.addictinginfo.org/2011/06/28/michelle-bachmann-supporters-alter-wikipedia-to-make-john-quincy-adams-a-founding-father/)
It's hilarious that they're changing Wikipedia to match her idiocy. It's even more hilarious that the people doing this are idiotic enough to think changing Wikipedia matters.After Sarah Palin's whole Paul Revere thing, I'd have thought people would realize that these kind of changes get reversed rather quickly.

Also:

5RCH1nQ1u4I

[MagGnome]

That video is great. :D

[MagGnome]

Michelle Bachmann's husband referred to gay men and women as barbarians. (http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=8810&MediaType=1&Category=26)

Disgusting. :mad:

[Entropy]

Michelle Bachmann's husband referred to gay men and women as barbarians. (http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=8810&MediaType=1&Category=26)

Disgusting. :mad:

When my girlfriend refers to me as a barbarian after time in the sack I take it as a compliment!

[MagGnome]

When my girlfriend refers to me as a barbarian after time in the sack I take it as a compliment!

The thought of her husband in the sack is just wrong. :p

[Entropy]

The thought of her husband in the sack is just wrong. :p

It says her husband is a doctor...in what field? And from which school did he receive his education?

(adds school to list of institutions my children will never attend)

[Serapth]

Michelle Bachmann's husband referred to gay men and women as barbarians. (http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=8810&MediaType=1&Category=26)

Disgusting. :mad:

... better than being likened to the plague, like in India.

[MagGnome]

He's a Doctor of Clinical Stupidity.


... better than being likened to the plague, like in India.

I guess so...the barbarians had something going for them, right? :p

[Narradisall]

Michelle Bachmann's husband referred to gay men and women as barbarians. (http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=8810&MediaType=1&Category=26)

Disgusting. :mad:

You know you want some.

http://www.ohthescandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/conan-the-barbarian.jpg

Just look into his eyes....

[MagGnome]

The body? Yes.

The face and the hair? NO.

[Xerxes]

The body? Yes.

The face and the hair? NO.

I thought you liked little guys like your self? O_o

[MagGnome]

I do tend to go for skinnier guys, yes. That doesn't mean I can't appreciate some muscle.

[Panthera]

I like the scentstopper hilt on his phallically positioned pommel.

[Widgetcraft]

You know you want some.

http://www.ohthescandal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/conan-the-barbarian.jpg

Just look into his eyes....

That dude looks really weird without the facial hair that I'm used to from SG: Atlantis and A Game of Thrones.

[Entropy]

Arnold is the only Conan in my book ;)

[MagGnome]

Michelle Bachmann comments (http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/113902/michele-bachmann-links-casey-anthony-to-muslim-brotherhood/) on the Casey Anthony verdict:

Well, I’ve been visiting all the primary states, and I’ve been talking to people, and people all over the place are asking me, why, in Barack Obama’s America, someone who murders a baby who happens to be white doesn’t get punished.

And Sean, I’ve been on the front lines, and I know people are afraid not just of the massive debt created by the Pelosi-Reid government, they’re worried about the Muslim Brotherhood, which has clear ties to terror groups dedicated to creating a worldwide Islamic caliphate, and they’re worried that Eric Holder’s Justice Department isn’t going to do anything about it if the Brotherhood or another group comes for their children.

Stay classy, Michelle. -_-