Christian Children's Fund Denies D&D Donation

[Doctor Setebos]

You know Christian Children's Fund (http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/), right? The non-profit charitable organization where the sweet guy with the white beard tugs at our heartstrings with haunting images of under-nourished children living in extremely horrendous environments, telling us that just pennies a day can feed these unfortunate kids. Despite anyone's feelings towards religion in general, CCF is a wonderful organization that does a lot of good in the world.

CCF also happened to be the favorite charity of recently-deceased Dungeons & Dragons creator, Gary Gygax. When GenCon raised $17,000 for CCF in Gary's name at their annual charity auction, you would think the organization would have been appreciative. However, it appears as though they politely refused the donation.

As [with] many non-profit organizations, CCF is selective in its endorsements or support in order to maintain the integrity of its name and logo. We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.As a result, GenCon instead gave the donation to the Fisher House Foundation (http://www.fisherhouse.org).

Source - GamePolitics (http://www.gamepolitics.com/2008/11/04/children039s-charity-turns-its-back-gygax-memorial-donation)

[J Arcane]

Nice to see there's some jackasses still carrying the "loony Christians against D&D" torch. :rolleyes:

[Troggles]

This just in: CCF denies donations from Mountain Dew and Cheetos.

[MrBibbz]

This is one of those .. "Durrrrrrrrr" moments isn't it?

[Ghostbear]

That is disgusting.

[Doctor Setebos]

I know I'm just asking for trouble posting a front page story that includes a religious element, but before anything gets out of hand, I'm officially begging everyone here to keep the discussion civil.

CoG is barely a month old. Don't make me have to lock a news post already. :p

That said: carry on.

[Johan]

We cannot lend our name to an event for which we have no involvement. This decision should in no way be interpreted as CCF holding an opinion on Mr. Gygax, gaming enthusiasts or the game Dungeons and Dragons.

They're obviously nuts and opposed to D&D, which they directly attribute to the devil's work. Their own words prove it. See? They said it. I quoted them. Devil's work. They said so.

Next!

Edit: That's sarcasm, my hyperbolic, religion-bashing segment of fellow forum-goers. I'd like to know how many of you actually donate to help this charity? If you didn't give a crap about them before, why now? They wouldn't take someone's money...oh noez! Did you offer them any of yours? Well then...

[Lutheran]

I wonder how many of those little kids in those commercials will not be in the next commercial due to them turning away money. I can just see that old dude now explaining to some kid who is starving to death why they turned away any chance she had to eat for the next month.

[Superman's Dead]

Those commercials with the guy saying "pennies a day" over and over again? Seventeen Thousand dollars? Well...I guess...uh...where can I find a gag, here...

Render unto Fisher-House what is Fisher-House's? No? Yeah, I don't think anything about this is funny either.

[Deimos]

Who at that organization really cares where the money is coming from? I don't believe anybody was asking the CCF to endorse either D&D or GenCon. Take the money which your organization needs and put it to good use! Some people disgustingly stubborn.

[TheKeck]

Saw this on GU Comics yesterday. Very ridiculous. And I'm a Christian.

[President Fred]

What I don't get is that the event has already happened right? So it isn't a case of this event being billed CCF DND charity dinner or anything. The event has already happened so how are they lending their name to it in any way other than receiving the money. I could understand it if they were approached before hand to be part of the dinner. I may be reading the article all wrong, is there anyone who can explain it?

[LongStepMantis]

What I don't get is that the event has already happened right? So it isn't a case of this event being billed CCF DND charity dinner or anything. The event has already happened so how are they lending their name to it in any way other than receiving the money. I could understand it if they were approached before hand to be part of the dinner. I may be reading the article all wrong, is there anyone who can explain it?

Thems devily moneys?

I've actually been reading the Bible off and on for a while just for more insight. I'm not a Christian myself, but I don't mind learning about other religions. Nothing I've read thus far has lead me to believe D&D elements would be considered evil. So I'd say it's their own warped perceptions.

If anyone actually has more info on why they have this perception, based off actual Christian teachings, I'd be glad to hear it. Gary was a great guy who gave us a hobby that sparked imagination in thousands, if not millions of us. To pretend that he was somehow connected with evil is the biggest joke I've ever heard.

[MagGnome]

I really don't have words for this.

[J Arcane]

D&D's status on the lunatic fringe blacklist is a left over from it's early days before video games overshadowed it as "that nasty box what's corruptin' all our youngfolk".

A combination of oversensitive "won't somebody please think of the children" types that drastically overstated the objectionable nature of the content combined with a few high media profile events in which some nutjob offs himself and the parents blame it on the first scapegoat they could find in his room

wiki has a pretty thorough run down on it's own historic non-controversy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons_controversies

[n3rdXcore]

That's insane. I really thought the whole "D&D is the work of the devil" stuff died out a long time ago. What a shame.

[digitalErich]

I've actually been reading the Bible off and on for a while just for more insight. I'm not a Christian myself, but I don't mind learning about other religions. Nothing I've read thus far has lead me to believe D&D elements would be considered evil. So I'd say it's their own warped perceptions.
Keep reading, you find there's a lot of examples where the modern church's opinions are not supported (directly or indirectly) in the Bible itself. As much as a Christian will tell you otherwise, their belief system is constantly in flux, when viewed in sufficiently long time spans.

[J Arcane]

That's insane. I really thought the whole "D&D is the work of the devil" stuff died out a long time ago. What a shame.
I got it from my mother back in the 90s. I'd been playing RPGs for some time at that point, and had even showed her and described to her my GURPS and Star Wars games, but then one of my damn friends made the mistake of mentioning we'd tried D&D and she freaked out and tried to ban me from RPGs and such.

Didn't really work.

[Doctor Setebos]

she freaked out and tried to ban me from RPGs and such.

Didn't really work.http://www.juggling.org/pics/Pics/non-seq-970522.gif

[GunnyMo]

Sheesh, I post this in the Lounge this morning and get no finder's fee? Outraged! :D

[Doctor Setebos]

Sheesh, I post this in the Lounge this morning and get no finder's fee? Outraged! :DSorry, Gunny. I saw your post, but thought it far too inflammatory to move to news. Besides, I actually did catch the GamePolitics article before I found your post.

So, yeah, what I'm trying to say is, no. No finder's fee for you. :D

[GunnyMo]

Sorry, Gunny. I saw your post, but thought it far too inflammatory to move to news. Besides, I actually did catch the GamePolitics article before I found your post.

So, yeah, what I'm trying to say is, no. No finder's fee for you. :D

Big baby. :p Christians deny children $17k in food and shelter because D&D is The Devil and my post was too inflammatory? lol I think the CCF are a bunch of flamers on this one.

[LongStepMantis]

Keep reading, you find there's a lot of examples where the modern church's opinions are not supported (directly or indirectly) in the Bible itself. As much as a Christian will tell you otherwise, their belief system is constantly in flux, when viewed in sufficiently long time spans.

Maybe I can't understand because I'm not a Christian, but if the bible doesn't say something is wrong, how do they arrive at the point of making wild interpretations? Because almost every instance I've personally seen/heard has the person saying more or less "The bible says this is wrong."

From my perspective, it's not something you can modify, regardless of age. If you believe the bible is truly God's word...that's it. You don't get to pick and choose or interpret anything. If you accept that it was written by mortal men and therefore can alter the ideas...then what the hell is the point? The whole idea is too confusing for me.

I'm not saying this as if it's fact, merely that it is how I see it. I mean no offense to the Christians in the audience. Explanations or insights are always appreciated.

[agentgray]

The knee-jerk response here has been amazing. This is a gamer's stereotype of Christians playing upon a Christian organization's stereotype of gamers.

Does anyone else know what they reject? I'll bet you'll be surprised. It's non-news.

I'll bet you'll be surprised what all sorts of non-profits reject across all religions and social demographics. I'm speaking this from experience.

[Johan]

The knee-jerk response here has been amazing.

No...it hasn't.

[J Arcane]

Or maybe some of us are Christians disgusted by another organization supposedly representing us to the world turning down enough money to feed thousands of starving children out of ignorance.

[agentgray]

No...it hasn't.
I guess you're right, because it falls right into the stereotype that Christians have of gamers. I can already see that this thread is a dead end. I should have expected these responses before even following the link.

:D

[GunnyMo]

No...it hasn't.

Oh both of you get off your high horses. Good grief. :rolleyes:

Personally, I find the association between the two hilarious and could honestly care less why they didn't take the money. If CCF are happy denying needy children money, hey I'm sure God told them to (no matter what corporate rhetoric they want to put out). And if GenCon, and gamers, want to believe it's because all Christians hate D&D, go for it.

[Johan]

There is NO unified Christian organization that represents all Christians, so give up the mock angst at one that disagrees with you. Or, grab your cane and keep beating. Get a face shield against the splatter.

I thought we had all figured out that no religion is monolithic in its interpretive factions. Didn't we get that yet? Eight years later?

Oh both of you get off your high horses. Good grief. :rolleyes:

I'm not on a horse; I'm on a leather, swivel chair. Quite comfy!

Have you donated to them? Casting stones and all...

[JayVe]

While the CCF won't take the money, they are accepting donations of Players Handbooks and polyhedral dice. Please, no character sheets.

[GunnyMo]

There is NO unified Christian organization that represents all Christians, so give up the mock angst at one that disagrees with you.

I thought we had all figured out that no religion is monolithic in its interpretive factions. Didn't we get that yet? Eight years later?



I'm not on a horse; I'm on a leather, swivel chair. Quite comfy!

Have you donated to them? Casting stones and all...

Who and where I donate has nothing to do with my opinion of the situation, Mr. Leather Swivel Chair. Leather? I'm calling PETA! :p

[agentgray]

Oh both of you get off your high horses. Good grief. :rolleyes:

Personally, I find the association between the two hilarious and could honestly care less why they didn't take the money. If CCF are happy denying needy children money, hey I'm sure God told them to (no matter what corporate rhetoric they want to put out). And if GenCon, and gamers, want to believe it's because all Christians hate D&D, go for it.

After second thought. I think you are right. The op was making a statement, and we all assumed. No reason is stated, we just made it bigger than what it is.

Somebody still got the money. Hopefully, it still helps someone somewhere out. It's like when you're a kid and your parents tell you to eat cause kids are starving overseas. You eat, but, uh, they're still starving.

Oh well, moving on.

[J Arcane]

And if GenCon, and gamers, want to believe it's because all Christians hate D&D, go for it.

I don't think that. How could I? I consider myself a Christian (sort of), and I play D&D. Hell, I went to an Episcopal church once where the priest got together with several of the bishops ever Sunday after service for a game of AD&D.

I do however think that the sort of Christian that would freak out about this sort of thing has a depressing majority on American religious culture however.

[Johan]

Leather? I'm calling PETA! :p

It will be hard to live without Bessie, but the kids will get by. :)

[divinechaos]

They just don't want to take money from nerds. They smell funny.

[GunnyMo]

They just don't want to take money from nerds. They smell funny.

The nerds or their money?

[TheFlyingOrc]

Maybe I can't understand because I'm not a Christian, but if the bible doesn't say something is wrong, how do they arrive at the point of making wild interpretations? Because almost every instance I've personally seen/heard has the person saying more or less "The bible says this is wrong."

From my perspective, it's not something you can modify, regardless of age. If you believe the bible is truly God's word...that's it. You don't get to pick and choose or interpret anything. If you accept that it was written by mortal men and therefore can alter the ideas...then what the hell is the point? The whole idea is too confusing for me.

I'm not saying this as if it's fact, merely that it is how I see it. I mean no offense to the Christians in the audience. Explanations or insights are always appreciated.

The basic problem is that the Bible is a large, LARGE book, and neatly divided into verses. When you have a viewpoint that you want to support, it is very easy to simply dive into the text and find a soundbite devoid of context to support whatever it is you want. Therefore, people who don't understand D&D attempt to find a justification for their dislike rather than trying to understand people. Misusing passages like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and expanding that to make all interest in the occult sinful, therefore D&D is sinful, is really par for the course.

I could go on for paragraph after paragraph about how unsettling it is that large portions of Christianity have been co-opted by people who resemble nothing more than the Pharisees Christ railed against, but I digress. Short version is people have biases, and being able to twist something agreed upon as infallible to say what you want it to say is an easy way to justify your bias, even if you're a hateful bigot.

[divinechaos]

The nerds or their money?

BOTH!

The Bible clearly states that it is evil to accept money from nerds. I swear it's here somewhere...

[GunnyMo]

BOTH!

The Bible clearly states that it is evil to accept money from nerds. I swear it's here somewhere...

Oh, you know where that's going, don't you?

[agentgray]

I could go on for paragraph after paragraph about how unsettling it is that large portions of Christianity have been co-opted by people who resemble nothing more than the Pharisees Christ railed against, but I digress. Short version is people have biases, and being able to twist something agreed upon as infallible to say what you want it to say is an easy way to justify your bias, even if you're a hateful bigot.

That is exactly it. The term "Christian" is very broad. It all get's lumped together. Read the book unChristian. It's really eye opening as to how "Christians" (a broad sense and specific sense) view society and how those on the "outside" view Christians. This was all done by a research group who interviewed a large number of people.

I don't know why I mentioned that other than I just finished it and found it to be very interesting.

And it is true that a lot of people look for specific soundbites (verses) to promote an agenda. Even the Bible itself states to look at all of it and use itself to confirm what it says.

Uh, I'm off my soapbox now. Back to LittleBigPlanet.

[LongStepMantis]

The basic problem is that the Bible is a large, LARGE book, and neatly divided into verses. When you have a viewpoint that you want to support, it is very easy to simply dive into the text and find a soundbite devoid of context to support whatever it is you want. Therefore, people who don't understand D&D attempt to find a justification for their dislike rather than trying to understand people. Misusing passages like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live", and expanding that to make all interest in the occult sinful, therefore D&D is sinful, is really par for the course.

I could go on for paragraph after paragraph about how unsettling it is that large portions of Christianity have been co-opted by people who resemble nothing more than the Pharisees Christ railed against, but I digress. Short version is people have biases, and being able to twist something agreed upon as infallible to say what you want it to say is an easy way to justify your bias, even if you're a hateful bigot.

Thanks for the info. I have a hard time taking arguments based off of "A is bad, which is related to B...so B is bad, which is related to C...etc." so then the person can say "See? and that's why Z is bad!" I know it's always more complex than that but it would help if those people would stop masquerading their own personal biases as something supported by the bible.

I like the main ideas of Christianity; love, forgiveness, all of that stuff Jesus preached about. It's when you start using those ideas as an excuse to censor or harm others that the whole thing just becomes...perverse. Unfortunately those who do so never see themselves as doing any wrong. This is obviously not confined to Christianity alone, but I have wondered before...if Jesus was really the son of God and preached loving your brother and forgiving your enemies...would he be ashamed of what has been said and carried out in his name? Again, I'm thinking along the lines of radical or extreme christian beliefs/actions, not Christians as a whole. Like The Crusades, the Inquisition, The Westboro Baptists.

[Telefrog]

I posted this in the Lounge thread, but I'll repeat it here. CCF had no problems accepting donations and grants from a laundry list of corporations. Their financials are posted here (http://www.christianchildrensfund.org/content.aspx?id=515). Dominos and Wal-Mart got to contribute, but I'm sure they're more "wholesome" and "correct" for CCF's image.

CCF may not be outright against GenCon or D&D, but they certainly know where the majority of their annual budget is coming from and it's not from people that love D&D.

[Johan]

I still maintain that, unless you're already giving to this organization, you've no right to cast stones at them. They don't represent you, if you don't give to them.

CCF may not be outright against GenCon or D&D, but they certainly know where the majority of their annual budget is coming from and it's not from people that love D&D.

Reminds me of a company that decided, based upon their market, to offend a portion of it and recall a game to change content, so as not to offend another portion of it.

Seems even non-profits are smart enough to know that the cost of a "give-back" is less than the cost of what can be lost down the road, eh?

[JayVe]

if Jesus was really the son of God and preached loving your brother and forgiving your enemies...would he be ashamed of what has been said and carried out in his name?

Crusades?
That's kinda shameful.

So to put things into perspective: Christians have done a lot of bad in the past in the name of their faith. What's to say that the same thing isn't happening right now? Christians may be doing bad right now, in good faith, but don't have the lens hindsight to help clarify between good and bad.

When your eternal soul is on the line, are you gonna go out on a limb for what you think is right, or follow what your church leaders say? Are you gonna think for yourself enough to determine your own sense of right and wrong?

[TheFlyingOrc]

I like the main ideas of Christianity; love, forgiveness, all of that stuff Jesus preached about. It's when you start using those ideas as an excuse to censor or harm others that the whole thing just becomes...perverse. Unfortunately those who do so never see themselves as doing any wrong. This is obviously not confined to Christianity alone, but I have wondered before...if Jesus was really the son of God and preached loving your brother and forgiving your enemies...would he be ashamed of what has been said and carried out in his name?
His divinity isn't actually an issue here - the man would clearly not be happy, let alone the god-man.

There are other parts of the world where Christianity is a far more beautiful thing. Those in the Sudan who believe unto death are in stark contrast to those who claim they are fantastic Christians because they hate homosexuals. I'm sure group A would vomit if they were aware group B existed.

Actually, I've heard an anecdote about a converted African coming to America as his mission, as he felt there were less truly saved people here!

[Telefrog]

I still maintain that, unless you're already giving to this organization, you've no right to cast stones at them. They don't represent you, if you don't give to them.

Reminds me of a company that decided, based upon their market, to offend a portion of it and recall a game to change content, so as not to offend another portion of it.

Seems even non-profits are smart enough to know that the cost of a "give-back" is less than the cost of what can be lost down the road, eh?

Essentially, yes. :D

[JayVe]

CCF requires you to have a signed note from God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit before you can make a donation.

[Doctor Setebos]

I consider myself a strong Christian. And by "strong", I mean, I take my family to church every Sunday, read my Bible, pray, run my church teen program, lend my (meager) guitar and vocal skills to our worship team, work on our youth outreach music ministry, and serve on the board of directors for our university outreach Christian fellowship organization.

That said, I don't understand where some Christian groups get the idea that things like Dungeons & Dragons are evil.

TO BE FAIR: we don't know 100% that the CCF denied the donation because "D&D is evil". All we know is that they denied it because they didn't want to associate CCF with the GenCon convention. That means, essentially, nothing.

However, since the discussion is naturally turning towards the connection between Christianity and D&D, I figured I would add my two cents.

The way it has been described to me in the past by those that pursue the destruction of D&D and its evil brethren, is that it promotes witchcraft, sorcery, monstrocities, and the acting out of evil behaviors. The idea is that it's like watching too much violent TV and playing too many violent video games: it can corrupt your good nature and your benevolent soul to the point that you eventually become a murdering demon that worships Satan. At least, that's the idea as it has been presented to me.

Once again, I reiterate: I consider myself a strong Christian, and I don't believe in that nonsense. I feel like you can play those kinds of games and still be a Christian because as human beings we are capable of separating fiction from reality. Playing a game that contains witchcraft will not necessarily make me want to be a witch any more than watching a television show about racing cars will necessarily make want to be a race car driver. There's always a chance, but I'm pretty sure I can fight it. ;)

After second thought. I think you are right. The op was making a statement, and we all assumed. No reason is stated, we just made it bigger than what it is.I tried very hard to do just that. I'm glad someone noticed. :D

[J Arcane]

His divinity isn't actually an issue here - the man would clearly not be happy, let alone the god-man.

There are other parts of the world where Christianity is a far more beautiful thing. Those in the Sudan who believe unto death are in stark contrast to those who claim they are fantastic Christians because they hate homosexuals. I'm sure group A would vomit if they were aware group B existed.

Actually, I've heard an anecdote about a converted African coming to America as his mission, as he felt there were less truly saved people here!
Of course, there's also a lot of those African Christians who are even more conservative than their brethren here in the States. This has become something of an issue in the greater Anglican community.

[LongStepMantis]

Sorry if I seemed to get into the Man/Divine aspect too much. It was more of something I had on my mind, but isn't really relevant to the issue at hand. That's all.

I can't stress enough that I don't see Christianity as a bad thing in any way. But the extremists in any religion tend to fuck up the party for the rest of the followers. Just look at what has become of Islam.

[Johan]

Playing a game that contains witchcraft will not necessarily make me want to be a witch any more than watching a television show about racing cars will necessarily make want to be a race car driver. There's always a chance, but I'm pretty sure I can fight it. ;)

Research does clearly indicate a connection between an increase in some negative behaviors (unwed, teenage sex, for instance) with an increase in exposure to certain media/content. It's not beyond the pale to see that some people who are conservative morally feel that exposure to some things in "the world" should be avoided if possible (and there are plenty of games, so some games can be avoided), to prevent initiating interest and behavior that wouldn't occur ordinarily.

That's not "lunatic." It's reasonable and rational. It just disagrees with some people's interpretation of what is right and wrong, and how powerful media/gaming/culture can be.

[GunnyMo]

Research does clearly indicate a connection between an increase in some negative behaviors (ultra conservative, repressive religion for instance) with an increase in exposure to certain media/content.

Fixed that for ya. :p

[Johan]

Fixed that for ya. :p

You know, I'm not a real big fan of the "screw with someone's post" position. To each his own. I suppose it's a rebuttal...of sorts.

[JayVe]

Playing a game that contains witchcraft will not necessarily make me want to be a witch any more than watching a television show about racing cars will necessarily make want to be a race car driver. There's always a chance, but I'm pretty sure I can fight it. ;)

Ahh, but you hit the nail on the head. Being exposed to things actually DOES make people want to do them. Exposing people to exciting things like racing, makes people want to race, or to get a car, or to drive fast. It isn't 100% of people 100% of the time, but if it didn't work, there would be no such thing as ADVERTISING!

While YOU may be able to resist your urges, not everyone can. I purchased a pair of Soap shoes after watching Sonic grind rails in Sonic Adventure 2 for the Dreamcast. Yes, a moment of weakness on my part. But what about the kids who've been exposed to something a little more serious than making a poor choice in footwear?

Edit: Not everyone in the world has a strong moral compass. For these people, it may be difficult to know (on an internal right/wrong level) why it is acceptable to do X in a game FOR FUN, entertainment, and excitement, but unacceptable to do the same thing in real life. Like I said, you are rational, but not everyone is.

Think, we are talking about some basic level of biology here:
I do X in my game, and I am rewarded. That feels good. That kind of reward system is how people learn.

[GunnyMo]

You know, I'm not a real big fan of the "screw with someone's post" position. To each his own. I suppose it's a rebuttal...of sorts.

lol It's my post when quoted in my response. :p I believe the rebuttal term you are looking for is "goddamn smart ass with a point".

[Doctor Setebos]

Research does clearly indicate a connection between an increase in some negative behaviors (unwed, teenage sex, for instance) with an increase in exposure to certain media/content. It's not beyond the pale to see that some people who are conservative morally feel that exposure to some things in "the world" should be avoided if possible (and there are plenty of games, so some games can be avoided), to prevent initiating interest and behavior that wouldn't occur ordinarily.Oh, I actually agree with you there, but notice that I was speaking directly of myself in that instance. I think the same is true for a lot of my fellow gamers, as well, but I can really only speak to my own experience.

That's not "lunatic." It's reasonable and rational. It just disagrees with some people's interpretation of what is right and wrong, and how powerful media/gaming/culture can be.Was this response to me? Did I say such thinking was "lunatic"? This is an honest question. I'm wondering if I mis-worded something.

[Johan]

Being exposed to things actually DOES make people want to do them...It isn't 100% of people 100% of the time, but if it didn't work, there would be no such thing as ADVERTISING!

I made the same point in another thread. It's behavioral psychology. Advertising works. The media has an influence. What we're exposed to affects us.

Did I say such thinking was "lunatic"? This is an honest question. I'm wondering if I mis-worded something.

You didn't. :)

[TheFlyingOrc]

Research does clearly indicate a connection between an increase in some negative behaviors (unwed, teenage sex, for instance) with an increase in exposure to certain media/content. It's not beyond the pale to see that some people who are conservative morally feel that exposure to some things in "the world" should be avoided if possible (and there are plenty of games, so some games can be avoided), to prevent initiating interest and behavior that wouldn't occur ordinarily.

That's not "lunatic." It's reasonable and rational. It just disagrees with some people's interpretation of what is right and wrong, and how powerful media/gaming/culture can be.
Virtually unrelated. If they're not accepting money from D&D players, it would be like Jesus telling the woman washing his feet to go away because she's a sinner and might contaminate his disciples, or refusing help food from Zaccheus because he was a corrupt man. The Bible simply doesn't back these people up.

They may feel that they personally should avoid exposure to occult material because of temptations within themselves, but working with seedy cultural elements to get the greater good done is more or less the single most Christlike thing a person or organization can do. Jesus surrounded himself with social pariahs.

Consider also the words of Paul -
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

Focus on verse 3 - it's the same situation - one person would feel violated by it, while the other sees nothing wrong. It is the responsibility of BOTH OF THEM to not call down judgment on the other, which is certainly not what's happening here.

edit: Changed "nonsense" to "unrelated". I was overly harsh.

[Blue]

This is why I have a difficult time with Christianity or really religion as a whole. I absolutely label myself as Christian but I have trouble associating with the umbrella religion at times. The CCF is not indicative entirely of Christianity any more than terrorists are fully indicative of Islam. Just because they fall under the same blanket doesn't mean they represent the whole.

For me what it boils down to is this: I heard someone describe what they believe (about God/Christ) that went "it's not a religion, it's a relationship". That is completely what I try and adhere to. I don't get wrapped up in the politics of the group, I don't say you can't do such and such because that's not my place. My chief goal is to focus on that relationship and that's what gets me by just fine.

So just because the word Christian is in the title doesn't mean anyone needs to rail against the people as a whole.

[Johan]

The Bible simply doesn't back these people up.

Not according to you, it doesn't. That's the wonderful thing about freedom of religion, of conscience, and of association. If you see this group as making an egregious theological error, don't give to them...give elsewhere.

Enough of their supporters apparently disagree with you based upon theology, however, that their decision is probably wise for them.

[JayVe]

I made the same point in another thread. It's behavioral psychology. Advertising works. The media has an influence. What we're exposed to affects us.

Absolutely.

I love when people say things like "Seeing something on TV does not make you want to go do it in real life." That's such bullshit. Every time there is a pizza on TV, someone somewhere wants a pizza. Every time there's a sexy woman on TV shaking her ass, someone somewhere wants it. Maybe it isn't YOU at that moment, but it works, and that's why it is here to stay.

We are influenced a LOT by the world around us, every moment of every day. It is one of the primary reasons I chose to get rid of our TV. Now I control the media that comes into my home, and what I consume with my eyes.

[Ancalagon]

Actually, I've heard an anecdote about a converted African coming to America as his mission, as he felt there were less truly saved people here!

Whenever I hear Christianity defined as the hatred or fear of something, whether it be D&D, homosexuals, africans, women, games or music, I think whoever is saying that has completely and utterly missed the point. This is coming from an ex Christian.

[JayVe]

Focus on verse 3 - it's the same situation - one person would feel violated by it, while the other sees nothing wrong. It is the responsibility of BOTH OF THEM to not call down judgment on the other, which is certainly not what's happening here.

Awesome! Blessed are the vegetarians. Don't look down on them for they choose not to eat the tasty steak. Blessed are the meat eaters. Don't look down upon them for consuming the flesh of living creatures.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Whenever I hear Christianity defined as the hatred or fear of something, whether it be D&D, homosexuals, africans, women, games or music, I think whoever is saying that has completely and utterly missed the point. This is coming from an ex Christian.

In fact, the radicalness of early Christianity within its culture - a culture where everyone's religion was similar to ultra-conservative American Christianity - is a huge part of the reason I'm convinced of its authenticity.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Awesome! Blessed are the vegetarians. Don't look down on them for they choose not to eat the tasty steak. Blessed are the meat eaters. Don't look down upon them for consuming the flesh of living creatures.
Oh, I'll look down on vegetarians, I just won't condemn them to hell for it.

[divinechaos]

Ugh! I don't get why Christians like to continue to argue about shit like this. Look, I'm a Christian and while I would like to join the wonderful conversation I know I shouldn't. No one is gonna change anyone's opinions about anything. At least not in a forum, much less a video game forum. Seriously, there are groups of Christians that are royaly fucked up but not all of us are like that. Saying all Christians are fucked is like saying all Black people are gansgters only because you've seen a group of them wearing baggy clothes.

[fitbabits]

If nothing else they are at least consistent.

[JayVe]

No one is gonna change anyone's opinions about anything. At least not in a forum, much less a video game forum.

My opinions change about all kinds of things, all the time. Often, from what I read here on CoG.

[LongStepMantis]

Ugh! I don't get why Christians like to continue to argue about shit like this. Look, I'm a Christian and while I would like to join the wonderful conversation I know I shouldn't. No one is gonna change anyone's opinions about anything. At least not in a forum, much less a video game forum. Seriously, there are groups of Christians that are royaly fucked up but not all of us are like that. Saying all Christians are fucked is like saying all Black people are gansgters only because you've seen a group of them wearing baggy clothes.

I didn't notice anyone claiming all Christians to be bad. But your overall point is valid.
If anyone did make such accusations then they are obviously wrong. You simply can't lump followers of a religion together in one basket, there are far too many branches and extensions of major faiths.

[GunnyMo]

Whenever I hear Christianity defined as the hatred or fear of something, whether it be D&D, homosexuals, africans, women, games or music, I think whoever is saying that has completely and utterly missed the point. This is coming from an ex Christian.

Actually, religion is simply the human way of coping with the fear of our own mortality. We want our lives to mean something and we're terrified that everything we do while alive will mean jack squat when we die and are not rewarded (or punished as the case may be). It is comforting to those that want to believe in it.

There's nothing wrong with that very basic and primitive idea. The religion of today has certainly built its entire mystique around that basic idea.

[GunnyMo]

Oh, I'll look down on vegetarians, I just won't condemn them to hell for it.

Oh, you should. You really should. :D

God commanded man to have dominion over all creatures and letting yummy food just romp around and not get eaten is a sin! A sin, dammit!

[TheFlyingOrc]

Actually, religion is simply the human way of coping with the fear of our own mortality. We want our lives to mean something and we're terrified that everything we do while alive will mean jack squat when we die and are not rewarded (or punished as the case may be). It is comforting to those that want to believe in it.

Some of us take solace in the fact that, if I'm wrong and nihilism is the correct answer, then nothing I did mattered anyway. ;)

[GunnyMo]

Some of us take solace in the fact that, if I'm wrong and nihilism is the correct answer, then nothing I did mattered anyway. ;)

lol so you're just hedging your bets, eh? :p

[TheFlyingOrc]

lol so you're just hedging your bets, eh? :p

Nah, but I can't think of a good reason to be an atheist if Christianity makes me feel like I have a fulfilled life.

edit: It's actually a more specifically stated version of Pascal's Wager.

[LongStepMantis]

Oh, you should. You really should. :D

God commanded man to have dominion over all creatures and letting yummy food just romp around and not get eaten is a sin! A sin, dammit!

An interesting point was raised by a professor I had once. In Genesis, at least in the version we were reading for class, it mentions that man will have dominion over the creatures of the land, but it never mentions anything about using them for food. In half of it.

I remember this point simply because she pointed out that the creation story is repeated, shortly after the first creation story it re-explains creation again. in the first creation story it distinctly implies that we don't eat them. It's been a while though, so maybe I'm off base. I don't think it keeps that vegan idea throughout the rest of it however.

[GunnyMo]

An interesting point was raised by a professor I had once. In Genesis, at least in the version we were reading for class, it mentions that man will have dominion over the creatures of the land, but it never mentions anything about using them for food. In half of it.

I remember this point simply because she pointed out that the creation story is repeated, shortly after the first creation story it re-explains creation again. in the first creation story it distinctly implies that we don't eat them. It's been a while though, so maybe I'm off base. I don't think it keeps that vegan idea throughout the rest of it however.

haha I don't remember the Vegan God message but you are correct about two conflicting stories of creation.

And, btw FlyingOrc, I'm not atheist (anymore). I had my hardcore atheist days when I was younger and have settled into a comfortable agnosticism. :D

[LongStepMantis]

Some of us take solace in the fact that, if I'm wrong and nihilism is the correct answer, then nothing I did mattered anyway. ;)

"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of. "

[TheFlyingOrc]

I remember this point simply because she pointed out that the creation story is repeated, shortly after the first creation story it re-explains creation again. in the first creation story it distinctly implies that we don't eat them. It's been a while though, so maybe I'm off base. I don't think it keeps that vegan idea throughout the rest of it however.
Cain offers an animal sacrifice, so I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. I don't think "specifically not mentioning that people get to eat animals" translates to "you can't do it".

God doesn't endorse sex in the first chapter of Genesis, either - but I bet it accounted for some 80% of Adam and Eve's free time.

[LongStepMantis]

haha I don't remember the Vegan God message but you are correct about two conflicting stories of creation.

I found the excerpt in question:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth." 29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food."

It's not cut and dry, but the implication is that we hold dominion over the plants and animals, but humans and animals are both to eat the plants. It doesn't say we shouldn't eat the animals, but the way it's worded does sound very pro-vegan. :D

Keep in mind that I'm doing this purely as an observation. I don't see one or the other as being "right".

[JayVe]

Cain offers an animal sacrifice, so I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. I don't think "specifically not mentioning that people get to eat animals" translates to "you can't do it".

God doesn't endorse sex in the first chapter of Genesis, either - but I bet it accounted for some 80% of Adam and Eve's free time.

Aren't animal sacrifices often seen as heathen? If offering animal sacrifices is the way to get God's attention, why don't they sacrifice a lamb every Sunday?

[GunnyMo]

God doesn't endorse sex in the first chapter of Genesis, either - but I bet it accounted for some 80% of Adam and Eve's free time.

lol only after they were kicked out. :D

[Doctor Setebos]

Well, I do know you're not supposed to eat meat that isn't cooked.

You also can't have any tattoos, shave your beard, or eat shrimp. Oh, or force your daughter into prostitution, but I think we can all agree that that's a bad thing to do.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Aren't animal sacrifices often seen as heathen? If offering animal sacrifices is the way to get God's attention, why don't they sacrifice a lamb every Sunday?
They used to. The theology is that animal sacrifice was required until Jesus, the only perfect sacrifice, was slain. Hence "the lamb of God".

[TheFlyingOrc]

lol only after they were kicked out. :D

They were naked and had no shame. What do YOU think happened?

[J Arcane]

Dominos and Wal-Mart got to contribute, but I'm sure they're more "wholesome" and "correct" for CCF's image.

Well, IIRC, Wal-Mart refused to sell D&D books in their stores, and their webmaster buried their listing on the Wal-Mart website in the Home and Garden section.

So they're in like company there at least. ;)

[JayVe]

It's not cut and dry, but the implication is that we hold dominion over the plants and animals, but humans and animals are both to eat the plants. It doesn't say we shouldn't eat the animals, but the way it's worded does sound very pro-vegan. :D

Well, the problem with the way it is worded is that some HUMAN BEING wrote those words. That's my personal problem with the Bible. It isn't so much the word of God, but the word of other humans trying to interpert the word of God.

As I see it, humans are fairly flawed creatures. Whose to say the King James Bible is the right book I should be following. Maybe I should follow the Koran, after all, that's another religious book written by a human being.

Edit: Maybe, I'll find God and spiritual enlightenment by self-reflection, meditation and prayer. Then I myself am interperting God's word.

[GunnyMo]

They were naked and had no shame. What do YOU think happened?

They were confused by the fig leaves.

[LongStepMantis]

Cain offers an animal sacrifice, so I'm not sure that makes a lot of sense. I don't think "specifically not mentioning that people get to eat animals" translates to "you can't do it".

God doesn't endorse sex in the first chapter of Genesis, either - but I bet it accounted for some 80% of Adam and Eve's free time.

I would have clarified a bit but I was looking for the section in question.
The post immediately following yours. :D

I also agree that it doesn't equate to "God says not to eat meat!" It's just an interesting observation.

Well, the problem with the way it is worded is that some HUMAN BEING wrote those words. That's my personal problem with the Bible. It isn't so much the word of God, but the word of other humans trying to interpert the word of God.

As I see it, humans are fairly flawed creatures. Whose to say the King James Bible is the right book I should be following. Maybe I should follow the Koran, after all, that's another religious book written by a human being.

As I stated earlier on, I struggle with the idea of following a religious text (in many major religions, not simply Christianity) that people hold up as the "unquestionable word of X god" when some guy (or most likely guys) wrote it. If God had chiseled the first bible out of rock with lightning, then I would be more accepting to that idea. Depending on your thoughts on the 10 commandments story, I guess you could say he sort of did. But they are not one and the same. ;)

[Johan]

...why don't they sacrifice a lamb every Sunday?

The Catholic church, in effect, believes it does through communion, as the wine and bread are supposed to take on the essence of the "lamb" of God, Jesus.

Protestants would say that the OT sacrificial system for the expiation of sins was done away with by Jesus' sacrifice in the NT.

[TheFlyingOrc]

They were confused by the fig leaves.

Those are actually explicitly mentioned as Adam wearing them after consuming the fruit, and not before.

[TheFlyingOrc]

As I stated earlier on, I struggle with the idea of following a religious text (in many major religions, not simply Christianity) that people hold up as the "unquestionable word of X god" when some guy (or most likely guys) wrote it. If God had chiseled the first bible out of rock with lightning, then I would be more accepting to that idea. Depending on your thoughts on the 10 commandments story, I guess you could say he sort of did. But they are not one and the same. ;)
As I've stated before, I believe the Bible to be infallible, but not inerrant - the difference being that I believe that it is perfect to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, but not necessarily literal, or even 100% historically accurate.

[JayVe]

Those are actually explicitly mentioned as Adam wearing them after consuming the fruit, and not before.

Wouldn't it be silly for God to create a man, and a woman, and NOT expect them to have sex? I mean, other animals have sex as part of the natural cycle of life. Wouldn't it be natural for humans to do the same?

[TheFlyingOrc]

Wouldn't it be silly for God to create a man, and a woman, and NOT expect them to have sex? I mean, other animals have sex as part of the natural cycle of life. Wouldn't it be natural for humans to do the same?

Heck, I'm doing it right now.

Related to what I posted earlier - anyone who can hate sex and claim to follow a book that contains Song of Solomon is a blasted hypocrite.

[JayVe]

As I've stated before, I believe the Bible to be infallible, but not inerrant - the difference being that I believe that it is perfect to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, but not necessarily literal, or even 100% historically accurate.

I think that's a very good idea.

People are, by their nature, very strange. We have a small, limited understanding of how the world works. When white men with advanced technology such as gunpower and sea vessels approached primitive cultures around the world, many cultures tried to explain away the strangers using the myths and stories they had in their culture.

When early scientists started to decipher ancient Myan writing, scholars 'saw' strange things in the glyphs, such as African elephants. As it turns out, the western scientists didn't have an understanding of what they were looking at, so their brains made up recognizable patterns. When early astronomers looked at Mars, they 'saw' canals. In reality, they weren't 'seeing' these things at all. Instead, they were 'seeing' what they new how to comprehend.

This same problem would happen to anyone trying to understand, and explain something like divine power. If God was to speak to you, how would you interpert the message? Would you get the message 100% correct? Would you be able to put it into words?

[LongStepMantis]

As I've stated before, I believe the Bible to be infallible, but not inerrant - the difference being that I believe that it is perfect to accomplish what God wants to accomplish, but not necessarily literal, or even 100% historically accurate.

As a non-Christian, I obviously see the Bible in more of an intellectual light than anything religious, but I don't deny anything you're saying.

I also think, like you state, that you can still believe the Bible to be a transcription of God's plans/rules/lessons without having to also accept it as something handed down directly from divine hands. Again, not my views, but I'm not a Christian. I just take issue with people who actually believe God, himself, penned it. And yes, it happens more often than you might think (or perhaps you do know). It came up quite a bit during my studies. The reason that distinction matters so much to me is that if you accept that a man wrote it, even with divine influence, it opens up the possibility for biases in the text. Not wholesale changes, but we can call them "creative editing"?

As for historical accuracy...any text as old as that is bound to be exaggerated, altered, or embellished at some point, possibly numerous times bit by bit. That doesn't mean it lessens the morals involved.

[agentgray]

I consider myself a strong Christian. And by "strong", I mean, I take my family to church every Sunday, read my Bible, pray, run my church teen program, lend my (meager) guitar and vocal skills to our worship team, work on our youth outreach music ministry, and serve on the board of directors for our university outreach Christian fellowship organization.

That said, I don't understand where some Christian groups get the idea that things like Dungeons & Dragons are evil.

TO BE FAIR: we don't know 100% that the CCF denied the donation because "D&D is evil". All we know is that they denied it because they didn't want to associate CCF with the GenCon convention. That means, essentially, nothing.

However, since the discussion is naturally turning towards the connection between Christianity and D&D, I figured I would add my two cents.

The way it has been described to me in the past by those that pursue the destruction of D&D and its evil brethren, is that it promotes witchcraft, sorcery, monstrocities, and the acting out of evil behaviors. The idea is that it's like watching too much violent TV and playing too many violent video games: it can corrupt your good nature and your benevolent soul to the point that you eventually become a murdering demon that worships Satan. At least, that's the idea as it has been presented to me.

Once again, I reiterate: I consider myself a strong Christian, and I don't believe in that nonsense. I feel like you can play those kinds of games and still be a Christian because as human beings we are capable of separating fiction from reality. Playing a game that contains witchcraft will not necessarily make me want to be a witch any more than watching a television show about racing cars will necessarily make want to be a race car driver. There's always a chance, but I'm pretty sure I can fight it. ;)

I tried very hard to do just that. I'm glad someone noticed. :D

Based upon what you said above, you and I are more alike than we think. ;)

[Doctor Setebos]

Based upon what you said above, you and I are more alike than we think. ;)That's good to know! :D

I think. :rolleyes:

[MagGnome]

From my perspective, it's not something you can modify, regardless of age. If you believe the bible is truly God's word...that's it. You don't get to pick and choose or interpret anything. If you accept that it was written by mortal men and therefore can alter the ideas...then what the hell is the point? The whole idea is too confusing for me.

A lot of Christians cherry pick the parts that suit them. Gays are bad - it says so right in the Bible!

I'd love to live in a land where the "Moral Majority" did not exist. Unfortunately this is their country. :rolleyes:

[Blue]

I'd love to live in a land where the "Moral Majority" did not exist. Unfortunately this is their country. :rolleyes:

Yeah, hurray for hedonism.