[Episode 40] Immortal Games

[Voodoo]

http://image.colonyofgamers.com/imcast.png (http://www.immortalmachines.com/)

PC games are not an old medium, but they create memories as vivid as any. Everyone remembers the great games that hooked them. But what makes the difference between a good time “back then” and a timeless experience? We explore the experiences of yesteryear, and the realities of revisiting old favorites. Or in my case, trying something for the first time to further a classical gaming education.

We also ponder over what it takes for developers to take a seasoned franchise into more glory days. Clearly, there’s no lack of trying, with names like Duke Nukem, Fallout, XCOM, and others still on people’s lips after a decade or more.

Preceding that is a short appraisal of the minds behind the recent Good Old Games gaffe. And for a pithy What We’ve Been Playing: Minecraft, with a quick critique of The Sacrifice DLC for Left 4 Dead 2.

Immortal Machines are one thing. Come and ask yourself if there are Immortal Games (http://www.immortalmachines.com/?p=506).

Hosted by James [Vigil80]
Participant is Eric [Ravenlock]
Produced by Clayton [Voodoo]

Direct Download (http://www.immortalmachines.com/public/podcast/Immortal_Games.mp3)

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[Undermind_Mike]

Hi guys,

Today you described Freespace as a 4x game. I'm not being an ass, I'm just genuinely scratching my head about what game you meant. Right name wrong description or vice versa?

From the description it sounded more like GalCiv or something...

Keep flying the PC flag!

[Voodoo]

Hi guys,

Today you described Freespace as a 4x game. I'm not being an ass, I'm just genuinely scratching my head about what game you meant. Right name wrong description or vice versa?

From the description it sounded more like GalCiv or something...

Keep flying the PC flag!

I think what I meant to say was that it isn't necessary to have an older game come out as the same genre in a reboot/remake but, for example, they could make an updated Freespace game into a 4X game similar to Sins.

[Ravenlock]

While I hadn't showed up yet for that part of the episode (...or if I had, I was very, very tired and don't remember it right now), I do think that blending space combat and strategy is something of a Great White Whale that nobody's quite managed to succeed at. Microsoft's Allegiance is probably the closest to having figured it out, and was crazy popular with a small, very dedicated group of people, but either it was too complex or just not well advertised enough to ever reach most gamers.

If somebody did want to tackle such an idea again, though, the Freespace universe seems like fertile ground to do it. A game similar to Savage, but set in space, where one player is the "commander" in a Homeworld-esque interface (how many games can I reference in a single example? let's find out!) and the other players are flying around in a traditional Freespace environment.

Ooo, actually now I have an entirely different idea I want to see somebody do along the same lines, but you'll need to wait for the next episode (being recorded tomorrow) to hear about that. ;)

Thanks for listening and joining the discussion, Undermind_Mike! Good to have ya.

[Vigil80]

I'd put the X series of games in the 4X category, and they're played entirely from a ship's cockpit view. Not that I'd put existing Freespace in that category, I'm just throwing that out there.

[Ravenlock]

I grew up loving King’s Quest. I mean, loving it. The first title in the series was the first proper PC game I ever played, working my way through each puzzle with my parents until we finally helped Graham gain his seat on the throne of Daventry. I was maybe six years old when I played for the first time, already being raised on classic fables and Disney movies, and here was a game that let me take part in one – respond to it, help shape it, determine its destiny. I played a lot of games as a kid, but I am a gamer because of King’s Quest.

As I grew up, the series grew with me… to a point. KQ IV, V and VI were wonderful experiences, but VII was Sierra’s attempt at turning the franchise into an interactive animated movie – with mixed results – and VIII was simply an abomination, an attempt to add action and RPG elements to a franchise that had always been about charming characters and simple storytelling. And then it was over – or seemed to be. KQVIII came out in 1998, the year I went to college, and another game in the series was never announced by Sierra. I (along with most fans, I imagine) sadly assumed that the series was dead, and looked back fondly on the good games that had come earlier in its life.

But now it’s back. Not officially, of course – The Silver Lining, first started by fans banding together ten years ago to eventually form “Phoenix Online Game Development (http://www.postudios.com/company/),” has had to lose its King’s Quest label and was “shut down” twice before finally being cleared for release this year – but the first two episodes out of an eventual five are now out in the wild (http://www.tsl-game.com/), available for you to download and put on the feathered cap of King Graham one more time. How does it fare? Well, that’s what we’re here to talk about.

It has some problems, I’ll say right up front. Some of the writing is a bit awkward, there’s FAR too much exposition for a game that will largely only be of interest to folks who are already fans of the series, and the first episode in particular is extremely light on the gameplay. But stick around, because there’s a lot of good things to say here as well. The production values for a fan project are rather astonishing (some of the music and voice acting are superb) – most importantly, though, for someone who grew up with King’s Quest like I did and watched it fall to pieces, the world feels right. These are characters I know, back in a place I want to visit again, and that’s more than enough to make me forgive their missteps. The project was clearly made out of love, and that can go a long way.

There’s more to say, but obviously that’s why we recorded an episode about it. So listen (http://www.immortalmachines.com/?p=517)!

Direct Download (http://www.immortalmachines.com/public/podcast/The_Silver_Lining.mp3)

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[nabokovfan87]

Odd to me the reasoning that was brought up during the discussions of whether or not a sequel/revival was good or not, or whether or not the games with them were better for it.

For discussion sake, some series with TERRIBLE sequels:

Rainbow six/Ghost Recon were both "consolized" essentially for the sake of making it more acceptable on their new platforms. Despite that, even RS: Lockdown was a travesty in many peoples eyes because it took out the planning aspects, something completely removed from the RS series today. Would have been interesting to hear thoughts on something like that, where the features that were pivotal to the games series were removed, and whether or not it has been a good thing or bad thing, and whether or not a sequel that returns to the original ideals would be a good thing or not.

[Vigil80]

Not entirely easy to say. Classic R6 would be better, of course. But what if the choice wasn't classic or "consolized" R6, but rather consolized or no R6? In almost every case, I'd rather a franchise go through a bastardized phase than to be altogether shut down.

Another example is Fallout 3. Plenty of people were shitting bricks over the new treatment, but I was just thrilled to see it get a new lease on life.

[Voodoo]

Odd to me the reasoning that was brought up during the discussions of whether or not a sequel/revival was good or not, or whether or not the games with them were better for it.

For discussion sake, some series with TERRIBLE sequels:

Hmm... You tell us that our reasoning during our discussions is odd but then want to have a discussion with us? In what frame of reference does that make any sense what-so-ever?

[Ravenlock]

I don't think that the argument was put forth that sequels are always (or even usually) a good thing; we were pretty specific about qualifying that developers - especially if they aren't the original devs - need to grok what it was about the original that got people excited, if they're going to bring it back successfully. Sometimes it's mechanics (Bionic Commando Rearmed), sometimes it's tone and atmosphere (Fallout 3), sometimes it's both (Mega Man 9).

As far as I can recall, though (and I wasn't on a lot of the episode but I did listen to the whole thing), we really weren't talking about direct year-to-year sequels at all... this was much more about franchise revivals and revisits of old properties than it was about "well this made a ton of cash, here's the next one" sequels. The Rainbow Six games, for as much as they might have changed between iterations, were expected continuations of a still-popular franchise. I think when you're doing that, the rules about what you can (or must) change are probably slightly different, since you have an audience that just bought your last game and has expectations about what you'll do next. Betraying those expectations is obviously going to be a risk.

[nabokovfan87]

Not entirely easy to say. Classic R6 would be better, of course. But what if the choice wasn't classic or "consolized" R6, but rather consolized or no R6? In almost every case, I'd rather a franchise go through a bastardized phase than to be altogether shut down.

Another example is Fallout 3. Plenty of people were shitting bricks over the new treatment, but I was just thrilled to see it get a new lease on life.

Definitely an interesting case between sequel and no game whatsoever, but there are plenty of cases like r6, gr, tf2, moh possibly, prince of persia, and others where the new game is vastly different and just leads to players wanting the old one remade or something more similar to the old one.

Take civ V as a counter, no one in the world is saying that they want more civ III instead, but just that the different versions have their own tastes and so forth.

But as Raven said, there is a difference between a sequel that just takes forever to come out and a long awaited revival of a franchise. Deus Ex for instance is a perfect example of something like that.

Hmm... You tell us that our reasoning during our discussions is odd but then want to have a discussion with us? In what frame of reference does that make any sense what-so-ever?

No, simply that it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on the instance I brought up. Needless to say, if I want to have a chat then I will invite you all on mine, but I am in no way trying to shove an arm in on your place.

---------------------

When I was listening it was just too narrow of a case, you for instance hated old games and would never play them, James (I believe that name is correct) was saying that he tries and games wont run, or just the instance where something else is "better".

I was thinking about how even though sequels might be better it has nothing to bear for me on whether or not I hate the initial version. I wouldn't look at peggle or portal and think to myself "tetris must be shit because it is old", I would simply play tetris and appreciate how it has benefited to the genre and what the other games have "picked" from it.

I know that isn't the sequel/revival topic of before, but I honestly can't remember the rest of the discussion without sitting through another listen, it has been a hellish week. When I wrote the post earlier I was trying to bring up the case, might not have done the best of jobs at doing so, but anyways, off to shoot things....

[Voodoo]

When I was listening it was just too narrow of a case, you for instance hated old games and would never play them
I have never said I hated old games. I said that I don't like to return to old games that take a very long time to play through if I have already played through them. Instead, when I feel like visiting them again, I'll pull up some "Let's Play" videos on YouTube.

I'm starting to believe that when you listen to our podcast that you get into such a euphoric state due to our sexy voices as to not remember if what you heard was either on the recording or in your head.

I was thinking about how even though sequels might be better it has nothing to bear for me on whether or not I hate the initial version. I wouldn't look at peggle or portal and think to myself "tetris must be shit because it is old", I would simply play tetris and appreciate how it has benefited to the genre and what the other games have "picked" from it.

Sitting down to play through a game Tetris != Sitting down to play through a game of Ultima VI

I know that isn't the sequel/revival topic of before, but I honestly can't remember the rest of the discussion without sitting through another listen, it has been a hellish week. When I wrote the post earlier I was trying to bring up the case, might not have done the best of jobs at doing so, but anyways, off to shoot things....

We talked about older games that you attempt to play through again because you have a certain golden place in your heart about them. My own stance is that I loved playing through many games that belong in my golden place BUT I do not have the time anymore to sit down to play through any of them again when I have such games as Fallout 4 - New Vegas installed on my HDD. I explained that shorter to play games, Warcraft 1, are easy to return to because their investment isn't large whilst returning to such games as Ultima IV requires a definitely investment of time. I'd rather invest long play periods to games I haven't played, be them new or old, just as I explained on the podcast. Instead, I watch videos of play throughs posted on YouTube of Ultima IV.

[nabokovfan87]

I have never said I hated old games. I said that I don't like to return to old games that take a very long time to play through if I have already played through them. Instead, when I feel like visiting them again, I'll pull up some "Let's Play" videos on YouTube.

Tell me, what is the time different between watching someone play mass effect and someone playing mass effect? Quite frankly doesn't it take just as long? Apart from making different decisions and doing/not doing side quests the length of the game is still long as hell. So, playing an old game that is long vs. watching someone play the same game quite frankly saves you no time apart from actually having to do work in order to play the game.

I'm starting to believe that when you listen to our podcast that you get into such a euphoric state due to our sexy voices as to not remember if what you heard was either on the recording or in your head.

Actually no, there are lots of life issues that happened hours and so forth after listening and I am sure you agree that when you have "one of those days" that listening to a podcast for an hour and a half quite frankly doesn't stay in the forefront for very long.

Sitting down to play through a game Tetris != Sitting down to play through a game of Ultima VI

If you aren't talking length, I do not understand what your point is. Keep in mind I haven't played a lot of older pc games, ultima being one of them, and quite honestly apart from you saying the game is old, I have no idea if the game is even good or not to be compared with tetris.

We talked about older games that you attempt to play through again because you have a certain golden place in your heart about them. My own stance is that I loved playing through many games that belong in my golden place BUT I do not have the time anymore to sit down to play through any of them again when I have such games as Fallout 4 - New Vegas installed on my HDD. I explained that shorter to play games, Warcraft 1, are easy to return to because their investment isn't large whilst returning to such games as Ultima IV requires a definitely investment of time. I'd rather invest long play periods to games I haven't played, be them new or old, just as I explained on the podcast. Instead, I watch videos of play throughs posted on YouTube of Ultima IV.

I argued with watching vs. playing earlier, but let me give you a "for instance". A few of the old snes games I hold in high regard. earthbound, mario, etc. Same with some of the GB games, pokemon for instance. I have spent the last week playing through pokemon just because I have it on the go, it is fun, and I still enjoy what pokemon is. Quite frankly I could play Jean D'arc instead, but I don't. It isn't because I would rather play old games, it is because for me pokemon is still better then Jean D'arc. The fact that pokemon is 15+ years old, doesn't make it a bad game for me, it is still just as long, takes just as much work to get to the good parts, but for you (I would assume) it is just "too long" to enjoy.

[Voodoo]

Tell me, what is the time different between watching someone play mass effect and someone playing mass effect? Quite frankly doesn't it take just as long? Apart from making different decisions and doing/not doing side quests the length of the game is still long as hell. So, playing an old game that is long vs. watching someone play the same game quite frankly saves you no time apart from actually having to do work in order to play the game.
Your direct impression of what I said equals me watching someone via video play through the entire game? I will try to use a very simple example to clarify what the difference is between playing through an entire game versus watching videos of the game. I own Ultima IV and I consider it to be my very favorite game of all time. I've played through it a number of times, back on the Apple IIe. I still have my Apple IIe version of the game as well as a PC version of the game. I do, from time to time, think about the fun I had with the game but I do not wish to play the entire game from beginning to end again because of the amount of time it takes. Instead, I will go to YouTube and watch certain portions of the game.

If you interpret this as "Ultima IV sucks!" then I have no other way to explain this concept to you.

Actually no, there are lots of life issues that happened hours and so forth after listening and I am sure you agree that when you have "one of those days" that listening to a podcast for an hour and a half quite frankly doesn't stay in the forefront for very long.

We all have our own things happening in our own lives. To bleed them over as a type of leverage in a discussion is called projection.

If you aren't talking length, I do not understand what your point is. Keep in mind I haven't played a lot of older pc games, ultima being one of them, and quite honestly apart from you saying the game is old, I have no idea if the game is even good or not to be compared with tetris.

I'm only talking length. I have also never said that a game is bad if it is old. Maybe you are getting me mixed up with someone else? In the same recording I mentioned that I want to play several games that I never had the opportunity to, among them are Fallout 1 and 2. I also mentioned that I dug my Grimm Fandango copy out of storage to play through it. Where were you when I was saying all thing? It was all within a 15 minute span on the recording.

Does it now confuse you that I would like to play Fallout 1 & 2? They are both long games, you know? Do you know why I'd like to play through them but not Ultima IV again?

I argued with watching vs. playing earlier, but let me give you a "for instance". A few of the old snes games I hold in high regard. earthbound, mario, etc. Same with some of the GB games, pokemon for instance. I have spent the last week playing through pokemon just because I have it on the go, it is fun, and I still enjoy what pokemon is. Quite frankly I could play Jean D'arc instead, but I don't. It isn't because I would rather play old games, it is because for me pokemon is still better then Jean D'arc. The fact that pokemon is 15+ years old, doesn't make it a bad game for me, it is still just as long, takes just as much work to get to the good parts, but for you (I would assume) it is just "too long" to enjoy.

Here is another concept for you to explore. There are many things in life that I have not experienced as of yet and I am not immortal. So, given a choice, instead of playing through Pokemon Yellow again on my GB, I'll start reading through the Horus Heresy novel that Ghostbear recommended to me. I feel, and you most likely do not share such perspective, that there is so much to experience in life that to simply repeat the same favorite experiences frequently is robbing you of time to experience a great number of other things. I have experienced a great number of things that I know many people will never experience in their lifetime and it has been mostly because I continually like to experience that which I haven't.

Yet, I have Ultima IV installed and ready to go at anytime on my Android phone, just in case.

[Ravenlock]

I have experienced a great number of things that I know many people will never experience in their lifetime and it has been mostly because I continually like to experience that which I haven't.

Well, that's not the only reason. I mean, a lot of us really can't get that many women in a room at one time.

....What?

[J Arcane]

Damnit, now I want to play Tetris.

And cool beans, Voodoo, on the mobile Ultima.

I've got Ultima 3 and 6 on my Android phone, for NES and SNES respectively. I hadn't thought of trying them on the Candy Apple emu for Apple II, but I could never get into the older games anyway, and I don't think the controls would work out.

I'm really hoping someone gets DOSbox working on it. There was a crude port for the G1 way back, but it's been more or less abandoned. Some guys got it working on the iPhone though (and of course it was pulled within hours after waiting months in cert), so I know it's possible.

Have you looked at Ultima IV Part 2? (http://www.80sgaming.org/ultima-parody/)It's from the Adventure Creation Kit guy, kind of a parody of all the Ultimas really, but especially that one. The interface in ACK is a bit friendlier than the old school Ultimas as well, but it's still DOS and old school enough all the same.

I really need to play more of it. It looks pretty fun.

[Voodoo]

Well, that's not the only reason. I mean, a lot of us really can't get that many women in a room at one time.
Try liberal use of baby oil.

Damnit, now I want to play Tetris.

And cool beans, Voodoo, on the mobile Ultima.

I've got Ultima 3 and 6 on my Android phone, for NES and SNES respectively. I hadn't thought of trying them on the Candy Apple emu for Apple II, but I could never get into the older games anyway, and I don't think the controls would work out.

I'm really hoping someone gets DOSbox working on it. There was a crude port for the G1 way back, but it's been more or less abandoned. Some guys got it working on the iPhone though (and of course it was pulled within hours after waiting months in cert), so I know it's possible.

Have you looked at Ultima IV Part 2? (http://www.80sgaming.org/ultima-parody/)It's from the Adventure Creation Kit guy, kind of a parody of all the Ultimas really, but especially that one. The interface in ACK is a bit friendlier than the old school Ultimas as well, but it's still DOS and old school enough all the same.

I really need to play more of it. It looks pretty fun.

That Ultima IV Part 2 looks pretty funny. :) I'll have to try it.

[nabokovfan87]

The whole length = bad game thing was based on something you said in one of your replies.

Here is another concept for you to explore. There are many things in life that I have not experienced as of yet and I am not immortal. So, given a choice, instead of playing through Pokemon Yellow again on my GB, I'll start reading through the Horus Heresy novel that Ghostbear recommended to me. I feel, and you most likely do not share such perspective, that there is so much to experience in life that to simply repeat the same favorite experiences frequently is robbing you of time to experience a great number of other things. I have experienced a great number of things that I know many people will never experience in their lifetime and it has been mostly because I continually like to experience that which I haven't.

This, I think is just where we differ, and I wholly respect your point of view. Whereas you are the person who wants to experience as much of like as possible, I would be equally pleased with being able to return to something I cherrished and that I enjoyed "back in the day" as a means of doing something that brought me sheer joy in the past.

I do agree that some games just aren't meant to be played again, I just wanted to understand what the reason behind it was for you, because it wasn't what it seemed I had deemed it to be nor what I had thought it was earlier.

Off to my pokemon, lol...