Fallout New Vegas, Hardcore mode

[Drayven]

The other Fallout thread got me wondering just how many people plan to use the new hardcore setting in New Vegas.

[iHap]

I'll probably be playing Hardcore on my second play through. I am a giant loot whore so my first game will be exploring every inch of the game and collecting every item I can find.

[Vigil80]

I'm going to do my best to play it on my first time through. Fighting my own packrat, loot-hound tendencies will be harder than the actual game mechanics.

So long as items don't spontaneously vanish from the world and I can keep caches hidden here and there or return to previously discovered troves, it'll be great fun. Otherwise, I may change my mind.

Incidentally, how bad was FO3 about despawning item syndrome? I don't remember it being a problem, but I also never left valuable items laying around for long, except in my "official" home.

[Cactaur]

I think it remembered the contents of lockers, so you could stash saleable stuff like books and junk in them when overloaded and come back later.

[Drayven]

I'm gonna give it a try on my first play through I think, especially if they have a persistent world and I can build stashes as mentioned above.

[TheKeck]

I don't even know if I'll play New Vegas, and then I'm not sure what I'll do, but I guess that I'd give it a try with mods.

[johnperkins21]

I'm gonna give it a try on my first play through I think, especially if they have a persistent world and I can build stashes as mentioned above.

Me too. It sounds intriguing to me, but I reserve the right to give it up very quickly if the scrounging for food becomes burdensome. My number one priority for a game is that it should be fun. A challenge is much lower on the list, so if I feel it impeding on my fun I'll switch it off.

[TheFlyingOrc]

Me too. It sounds intriguing to me, but I reserve the right to give it up very quickly if the scrounging for food becomes burdensome. My number one priority for a game is that it should be fun. A challenge is much lower on the list, so if I feel it impeding on my fun I'll switch it off.

A lot of stuff like that is significantly more fun once you know generally what's going on, too.

[BigJonno]

I'll definitely give it a go, although I doubt it'll be on my first play through. Somewhat ironically, it's because it's from Obsidian and I want to focus on the story. If it was Beth developed, I'd go straight for the hardcore mode.

[carnage11]

I'll probably be playing Hardcore on my second play through. I am a giant loot whore so my first game will be exploring every inch of the game and collecting every item I can find.

Pretty much this for me as well. The first time I play I tend to collect and do everything possible, usually on the easiest difficulty. The second is generally more stream-lined with a higher difficulty. I will only focus on what's important, knowing more about the game and being more comfortable knowing what I can get rid of or throw away. The first time I play I always end up with a stock pile of stuff because I'm scared to use anything. Especially, big weapons like nukes and what-not. I don't want to get to the end boss and not have a weapon or enough of a certain type of ammo or whatever. The second time, however, I'm much more comfortable taking only what I need and using what I want when I want.

[TheKeck]

A lot of stuff like that is significantly more fun once you know generally what's going on, too.
This is a good point. You typically don't beat Super Mario Bros. 3 with your feet or Contra without dying on your first play through. You master (or at least learn) the game first.

[ClannerDelta]

The first time I play I always end up with a stock pile of stuff because I'm scared to use anything. Especially, big weapons like nukes and what-not. I don't want to get to the end boss and not have a weapon or enough of a certain type of ammo or whatever. The second time, however, I'm much more comfortable taking only what I need and using what I want when I want.

This is something I've had to fight against for a long time. I play games like RPGs as if I'm a bullied kid waiting for a punch to land. Treating each gift the game gives me as though right around the corner punishment is waiting. Fuck you JRPGs, for making me regret using big items a few boss fights down the line.

Now, I tend to use things when I want. If a game is designed around me having to have a specific item to beat a boss without any sort of indication beforehand. It's simply not a game worth investing my time in. There's challenge, and then there's bullshit.

[Scaryfaced]

I remember assuming that I could use areas I'd cleared out in FO3 as a home base before earning myself a room in Megaton. After filling a locker(cabnet, safe, something. I'm not sure) full of all my extra goodies, I went back to adventuring. When I returned, the locker was empty and I was sad. Perhaps I chose the wrong place to plant my stash, but I wasn't too happy about it. It taught me to become a packrat until I eventually discovered the various ways to get your own safe house so I could finally unload my junk.

On my following time through the wasteland, I abandoned that mentality completely and only cared and kept what i needed. I rarely even kept things to sell, as caps were largely useless to me. So that being the case, I'll be learning the game all over again on vanilla mode my first time through and going hardcore once I know what I'm doing.

[Vigil80]

It takes quite a bit of fun out of exploring, hardcore or not, when items disappear like that. I've never understood why games must have that problem. Make my save file huge, whatever you have to do, but make items persist throughout the gameworld. Minecraft has shown me it is not only possible, but rather easy. Don't let some random Swede show you up. :p

[National Kato]

I remember persistent items in both Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Unless someone comes along and picks up the item, which can happen, it wasn't that rare for me to find a pile of loot I'd dropped in the middle of a road to still be there many game hours later.

[TheKeck]

I remember persistent items in both Fallout 3 and Oblivion. Unless someone comes along and picks up the item, which can happen, it wasn't that rare for me to find a pile of loot I'd dropped in the middle of a road to still be there many game hours later.

Does this include traveling to many different parts of the map and exiting/restarting the game?


I have vague recollections both of things disappearing and being surprised that they hadn't on different occasions.

[National Kato]

I don't remember enough to know if it had any rhyme or reason to it, but it definitely persisted through game loads and console shutdowns. Someone with more time on their hands should test it out scientifically.

I was just pleased to find it when I did.

[Scaryfaced]

Yeah I specifically remember things i'd dropped in the actual world remaining there for a suprisingly long time, if not indefinitely. I also know that i lost a container full of gear at least once early on in my game playing. I never tempted fate again. I'm not sure how the persistant world system worked, perhaps some random Raiders decided to steal from my hiding spot or the game deletes certain things when you exit and restart, but I was an unpleasant experience.

[TheKeck]

I almost wonder if the game counter intuitively holds onto objects just left sitting around much better than items left inside containers....

[BigJonno]

I almost wonder if the game counter intuitively holds onto objects just left sitting around much better than items left inside containers....

I believe that is the case. I can't remember the details, but I definitely read something to that effect. It's because most of the containers randomly generate their contents, or something like that.

[TheKeck]

It's because most of the containers randomly generate their contents, or something like that.
Yeah, I thought it might be something like that. Very interesting. You don't want to lose something, make sure you just leave it lying around!! :)

[menage]

I voted yes, but just to see if it really adds anything. I'll drop it at once if it's just bogging me down instead of being fun. And I'll play through once normally first.

[Gerbs]

Plan to try it on my first time through, as I understand it can be turned off if I am too much of a pansy to get through it.

[maharahaj]

I give it a go on my second playthrough.

[Lithium Flower]

I almost wonder if the game counter intuitively holds onto objects just left sitting around much better than items left inside containers....

That is actually the case. Most containers respawn after 3 days (the exception are certain unique containers, usually empty ones, like the ones inside your home), as do all cells. Objects lying around physically in cells will also respawn when the cell is reloaded, unless you pick them up and then discard them - then they'll become attached to your savefile and persist forever.

[Superman's Dead]

My roommate and I are playing through on hardcore for our first respective playthroughs. He's going to be using the strategy guide, I will not.

I want to play the game the balls hard way the first time, and then feel like I earned my magically weightless ammo and insta-healing self. I loved discovering the world of Fallout 3 so much, going in without knowing anything, that I'm gonna love doing it again. The second time I can go hunting for stuff with the guide.

[Mr. Murphy]

I am definitely playing Hardcore mode (normal) first. Everything that they consider Hardcore is totally acceptable to me as "realistic", and it's all stuff I've done in other games before anyway. It'll slow the game down a little, but I enjoy Metal Gear Solid games, so I think I'll be fine crouched behind a rock waiting for my Stimpack to finish...

[National Kato]

I've decided to play with Hardcore Mode turned on. I change my previous vote, as I'd like a unique experience this time around.

I love the idea of not being able to fast travel if the distance is far enough to require sleep, food, or water. We'll have to plot long journeys in segments in order to eat, drink, and rest.

[Exodus]

Can anyone explain the hardcore mode?

[iHap]

Can anyone explain the hardcore mode?
It's a realism mode, you have to drink, eat occasionally, actually get sleep, ammo has weight. If you get badly injured only a doc can fix you up...

Was there more rules?

[Jackel]

I'll definitely be giving hardcore mode a try on my first playthrough.

[National Kato]

Was there more rules?

From Jason Bergman, senior producer:

Hardcore Mode can be turned on or off at any time, although if you want the Hardcore trophy, you have to turn it on when initially prompted and leave it that way all the way to the end of the game. When it’s on, players will have to eat, sleep, and drink water every day. In addition, ammo has weight, companions can die, Stimpaks heal over time, and damaged limbs can only be healed with a Doctor’s Bag.
While you can fast travel in Hardcore Mode, you can’t if the time it would take to get you there would result in the player dying from dehydration/exhaustion/starvation.

[Exodus]

After watching The Road I totally wanna try Hardcore mode out.

[Tel Prydain]

I’ll have it on. I think dehydration is a winner of an idea, and I thought while playing FO3 that it would be a great mechanic. Makes the world more interesting with all that tainted water you risk radiation or suffer dehydration.
Also like that hardcore more is divorced from difficulty.

[Exodus]

I'm also curious about whether the enemies won't be scaled in hardcore mode!

[Tel Prydain]

I believe that is something that would be determined by difficulty rather then ruleset.

[Exodus]

You all are going to play hardcore mode simply because of what it says near the end of this ss

http://www.strengthgamer.com/images/fallouthardcoremode.jpg

[Narradisall]

Hardcore for me. I want to feel like I really an surviving a wasteland, fighting for scraps, hiding while I eek back life, coming out of battles by the skin of my teeth.

Good times

[Daytime_Lantern]

Ok, this is some random tangent, but I've been reading a LOT of Walking Dead recently and have been playing a fair share of zombie games (L4D and Dead Rising 2). None of the games have truly captured how hard it is to survive an apocalypse (zombie or nuclear).

Hardcore mode is probably as close as I'm going to get. But just having to scrounge food and water just for yourself seems more like a way to make the game arbitrarily harder for yourself. Now if Bethesda gave you a companion and you got to see how well you were doing in him/her, THAT would be interesting... I dislike suffering arbitrarily without SOME kind of cool pay off.

Now what is the last game that really beat the shit out of you that you ended up liking? A game that was really hard but not on the frustrating side?

[pomeroy]

Everyone's gonna answer Demon's Souls.

[Tel Prydain]

None of the games have truly captured how hard it is to survive an apocalypse (zombie or nuclear). Hardcore mode is probably as close as I'm going to get...
But just having to scrounge food and water just for yourself seems more like a way to make the game arbitrarily harder for yourself. .....
I dislike suffering arbitrarily without SOME kind of cool pay off.


Having to seek out food, water and sleep aren't arbitrarily if you're trying to make a game that does capture that survivalist mentality. The cool payoff is that you finally get that true Mad Max save-every-can-of-beans-you’re-going-to-need-them experience.

[Mr. Murphy]

Ok, this is some random tangent, but I've been reading a LOT of Walking Dead recently and have been playing a fair share of zombie games (L4D and Dead Rising 2). None of the games have truly captured how hard it is to survive an apocalypse (zombie or nuclear).

Hardcore mode is probably as close as I'm going to get. But just having to scrounge food and water just for yourself seems more like a way to make the game arbitrarily harder for yourself. Now if Bethesda gave you a companion and you got to see how well you were doing in him/her, THAT would be interesting... I dislike suffering arbitrarily without SOME kind of cool pay off.

Now what is the last game that really beat the shit out of you that you ended up liking? A game that was really hard but not on the frustrating side?

I bought Demon's Souls looking for that experience, but I found it too frustrating.

Completing Metroid: Zero Mission on hard with no pickups, or on hard with all pickups in under 2 hours, took a fair amount of time and skill, and remains one of my more rewarding gaming feats - by the time I was done with that game watching myself play it was like watching a ballet.

[Exodus]

Having to seek out food, water and sleep aren't arbitrarily if you're trying to make a game that does capture that survivalist mentality. The cool payoff is that you finally get that true Mad Max save-every-can-of-beans-you’re-going-to-need-them experience.

^^^This This This.

That's the whole point of having to scrounge for food. It makes actually finding stuff matter.

[Daytime_Lantern]

I am imagining (translation: I can totally be wrong about this) that the hardcore mode will probably make the start up a bit difficult and interesting. But as you progress, it will probably end up being a hassle where you have to periodically stop by your shelf of infinite holding before going out to explore to pick up a good amount of food and water before adventuring out. Then you will start wondering why you bothered turning on that setting in the first place.

[National Kato]

I am imagining (translation: I can totally be wrong about this) that the hardcore mode will probably make the start up a bit difficult and interesting. But as you progress, it will probably end up being a hassle where you have to periodically stop by your shelf of infinite holding before going out to explore to pick up a good amount of food and water before adventuring out. Then you will start wondering why you bothered turning on that setting in the first place.

You're leaving out the other aspects of hardcore mode, however. Companions that can die, stimpak and Rad-X usage...the mode isn't just a sidequest you have to do every so often. It's intended to change your mental state while playing.

Tougher enemies will require you to use stimps effectively, instead of just popping them multiple times during an encounter for immediate healing. When you enter abandoned buildings, instead of rifling through looking for as much ammo as you like, you're going to be calculating ammo/time, weapon selections, and choosing the best nourishment to sustain you for the next unknown encounter.

[Farsight]

Dead Rising is the game that comes to mind for me. Your limited inventory space makes every item you find a taxing decision on how valuable it is. How much food do you carry, how many weapons, which weapons are going to be most useful, etc. It's an unusual game in that starts out very hard, and gets gradually easier as you play - a rather unfriendly design choice that is very rewarding if you stick with it beyond the initial whiplash.

Now the respawning items eliminates a portion of the survivalist feel, but you still end up in situations where you're surrounded by enemies, running out of working weapons and food, and frantically searching for some scrap that will let you make it to safety.

Good times. :)

[Tel Prydain]

I am imagining (translation: I can totally be wrong about this) that the hardcore mode will probably make the start up a bit difficult and interesting. But as you progress, it will probably end up being a hassle where you have to periodically stop by your shelf of infinite holding before going out to explore to pick up a good amount of food and water before adventuring out. Then you will start wondering why you bothered turning on that setting in the first place.

I played a game of FO3 (and blogged about it) where I made myself eat/drink/sleep and if I failed to do so would pump up the skill level. Totally ignored the plot and set out to 'live' in the world. I found it did make everything more fun and really enjoyed the feeling of things getting bad when supplies ran low.
It does change the game from Diablo-esc loot-a-thon to a more strategic only-take-what-you-can-use. It makes you play smart and you’ll find yourself thinking about what you REALLY need to take.
Most of the time I would take two guns, a few meds and what I was wearing – in an odd way it was very liberating to ditch the ‘stuff’.

[Vigil80]

Everyone's gonna answer Demon's Souls.
Not me. I think Demon's Souls is crap.

@Daytime, The STALKER games, particularly Call of Pripyat, can provide you with a similar experience.

[Narradisall]

I only just read about the 'special rewards' bit.

I'd laugh SO MUCH if it turns out to be some sort of bag of infinite holding.

I do laugh when they give you shit at the end of a game that you needed at the start. Not that I'd want one anyway, it's all going to be about the scrapping by in this game.

[Drayven]

I just assumed the special reward was the achievement/trophy

[National Kato]

Reading some reviews and it looks like Obsidian released a technical mess again. One review stated there will be a day one patch, so I hope by the time I get the game into my 360 tonight some of the major game-crashing/lockup/framerate issues will be fixed.

[Exodus]

The reviews I've read have all been 9+!

I can't wait to give this thing a rip.

[Drayven]

Reading some reviews and it looks like Obsidian released a technical mess again. One review stated there will be a day one patch, so I hope by the time I get the game into my 360 tonight some of the major game-crashing/lockup/framerate issues will be fixed.

will that patch actually be on the 360 or does it have to go through certification?

[Panthera]

I only just read about the 'special rewards' bit.

I'd laugh SO MUCH if it turns out to be some sort of bag of infinite holding.

I do laugh when they give you shit at the end of a game that you needed at the start. Not that I'd want one anyway, it's all going to be about the scrapping by in this game.

The reward is a truck full of water chips.

[National Kato]

will that patch actually be on the 360 or does it have to go through certification?

Good question.

The reviews I've read have all been 9+!

Well, some of the sites that typically jive with my own feelings towards a game are Game Informer (85), Giant Bomb (80), and Joystiq (70). Metacritic is averaging an 85 right now with 8 critic reviews.

All of them say if you loved Fallout 3 it's more of the same, literally. So I'm still going to enjoy it. But 25-50 second loads when entering/exiting a building using a HDD install? That could get tiresome.

[Exodus]

From what I've read, the story decisions aren't as be good or be bad. In some situations when the reviewers discussed they had 4 different experiences.

When you say 'more' fallout 3 I think you're skewing it. If what I read was correct they gave us a fuck tonne of content and used every inch of the square footage.

I'll play this later today so we'll see.

[National Kato]

When you say 'more' fallout 3 I think you're skewing it.

No, what the reviewers mean by that is it's the same engine, the same gameplay, the same bugs/glitches, etc. Which is to say, if you're looking for more Fallout 3 gameplay in a new locale, this is for you (and me).

Sure, you get new characters, new quests, new bugs/glitches, new music (but not nearly enough, apparently), and a new story. But if you're looking for a radically new experience, you might be disappointed.

One of the reviews said it was another '200-hour' Fallout game, which is enough for me to justify the purchase.

[Philonious]

The Faction mechanics sound potentially interesting. I read the Joystiq review last night and they seemed to miss the point. Siding with Factions closes of quest opportunities in the game, seems to me that this should add to replayability. Fallout 3 had a similar idea, but very few choices actually followed you around the world once you finished an area. If Obsidian pulls this off it could be cool. Of course the completionist in me will probably be annoyed but blocked questlines once I actually start playing.

[Exodus]

No, what the reviewers mean by that is it's the same engine, the same gameplay, the same bugs/glitches, etc. Which is to say, if you're looking for more Fallout 3 gameplay in a new locale, this is for you (and me).

Sure, you get new characters, new quests, new bugs/glitches, new music (but not nearly enough, apparently), and a new story. But if you're looking for a radically new experience, you might be disappointed.

One of the reviews said it was another '200-hour' Fallout game, which is enough for me to justify the purchase.

Dude, you're trying to disagree over me saying that it has more complex content by saying it's just more Fallout 3?

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

[National Kato]

Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?

Who's arguing? I thought we were discussing the reviews, since neither has played the game yet. You said I was 'skewing' it by calling it more Fallout 3, but I was just stating what reviewers said. There's a difference; thus, our discussion.

[Exodus]

Who's arguing? I thought we were discussing the reviews, since neither has played the game yet. You said I was 'skewing' it by calling it more Fallout 3, but I was just stating what reviewers said. There's a difference; thus, our discussion.

To you it's more fallout 3. To me it's more out of fallout 3 that I didn't get out of the first game. how's them apples.

[Daytime_Lantern]

Not me. I think Demon's Souls is crap.

@Daytime, The STALKER games, particularly Call of Pripyat, can provide you with a similar experience.
Good call on STALKER. The only thing about that game that turns me off is that the narrative seems a bit uninteresting. I'll definitely pick it up next time there is a Steam sale though.

[National Kato]

To reviewers it's more fallout 3. To me it's more out of fallout 3 that I didn't get out of the first game. how's them apples.

FTFY. No need to get riled, Ex.

[Savok]

Why is everyone fighting about this game? Jesus.

[National Kato]

Why is everyone fighting about this game? Jesus.

No one's fighting. Disagreements and/or differences of perspective on the internets does not equal fighting. Carry on.

[Narradisall]

Them fighting words!

[carnage11]

Alright, let's everyone relax! No need to start trouble....

[National Kato]

Have at thee!!

[Vigil80]

Back on topic, I'm in my first in-game night, and I'm suffering from minor dehydration. Luckily, there are a number of easy hydration sources around Goodsprings, but when I venture into the wastes, having some spare water will be no joke.

[Tel Prydain]

Obsidian branching quests (with real choices and consequences) in a proven, tested engine that they can't bugger up too much is pretty much a dream. A Fallout sized world with NPCs that don't talk like robots, and add to that survivalist aspects… my hopes are sky high.

[National Kato]

...but when I venture into the wastes, having some spare water will be no joke.

That's actually one of the reasons I was interested in the Gamestop pre-order bonuses, which include a canteen. Don't know how easy those are to come by naturally...They ought to have included a 'drink your own piss' option.

[Tel Prydain]

That's actually one of the reasons I was interested in the Gamestop pre-order bonuses, which include a canteen.

A Vault 13 canteen, at that.
"The canteen will be able to store a certain amount of water from any water source. This will help with dehydration in Hardcore mode. It will give you more than one drink. "
I hope people without the DLC can find water-bottles... I can only imagine that the wasteland will be a pain in the ass without one.

[Borthcollective]

Bah - Canteen, who needs one. I have spears and a machete to take yours with.

[Tel Prydain]

You make an ominous point.