D&D 4e for Gaming Newbies

[Matthias]

Hey, I'm starting up a D&D 4e group either this weekend or next, and it seems like the most experienced member of our group besides myself has played a grand total of one 3.5 adventure; beyond that, no one is a pen-and-paper gamer. I think 4e does a pretty good job of making things easy to understand, but I'm a little torn between the idea of giving the players access to all of the major releases so they can geek out on the various races and class ideas, or if I should limit them to PHB1, or even the new Essentials handbook that just came out.

While I don't think having that many race/class options out there would be particularly daunting, I'm a bit worried about feats and that sort of thing, which is honestly where I start to flounder myself. Are there any guides out there that y'all have found useful for making those choices a bit easier on the newbie? Does anyone have a DDI account, and would they recommend getting one, at least for a month?

[TheKeck]

So, your main concern is with the newbie players being able to decide what they want in their character builds?

[Shieldmaiden]

Why don't you just pick up the new Red Box? I've heard very good things about it.

[TheKeck]

or if I should limit them to PHB1, or even the new Essentials handbook that just came out.

Why don't you just pick up the new Red Box? I've heard very good things about it.
Well, he asked if that's what he should do. I guess you vote yes? :)

[Shieldmaiden]

Well, he asked if that's what he should do. I guess you vote yes? :)

The Essentials handbook is like an add-on for the Red Box. He made no mention of the Red Box, so I wasn't sure if he was aware of it. Also, I like saying Red Box. Red Box.

[TheKeck]

The Essentials handbook is like an add-on for the Red Box. He made no mention of the Red Box, so I wasn't sure if he was aware of it. Also, I like saying Red Box. Red Box.
Oh, I thought the Essentials handbook was the book that came with the red box and that they were basically synonymous. My bad.

[Shieldmaiden]

Oh, I thought the Essentials handbook was the book that came with the red box and that they were basically synonymous. My bad.

I think it's like a whole range of stuff, with the Red Box being the starter set.

[Seabass]

I've been wanting to start up a group as well. My biggest concern is that my friends won't be able to get into the spirit of things. I picked up the red box and plan to try it out but so far it seems like a big start up cost. I had one friend create his character and it took about an hour.

I may just end up grabbing the Castle Ravenloft Board Game to try to ease people into the experience. Let us know how your group works out, especially if you have advice. :)

[Shrinn]

If you guys have access to the character builder program through whatever means, it helps a LOT. It even organizes all the feats based on what they're from (class, tier, weapon) and you can choose to take out certain books so that their options don't pop up. It also provides an awesome printout.

Edit: Also, just be really understanding with letting them try out new things and change feats/powers if they find they don't like it. Don't let them be like "Well, we're fighting undead now so I want to take the anti-undead feat!" but if they find out that their implement mastery isn't helping them at all, let them change it.

[TheKeck]

Character builder is a free demo up to level 3, I believe.

[Matthias]

I actually do have the Red Box as well, and I would actually say that the Red Box is like Heroes of the Fallen Lands (the essentials handbook)- Lite. It seems to have some different powers in there, and according to some on ENWorld (I haven't spent the time to double check) might actually be incompatible with the rest of the essentials line, which is an issue because it doesn't even provide powers for level 2 in there. I made a character with it the other day, and I'm considering using it as a fallback if character creation seems to overwhelm, but I'd like to give them as much choice as possible without sending them reeling.

Also, TheKeck has it right on; I'm concerned that looking at a long list of feats might overwhelm them, and I'm not particularly sure how to guide them, as I certainly don't have a great grasp on what feats are worth it, or even the "finer points" of what classes fill what roles better when playing with X other classes. I've asked which types of characters they'd like to be - what do you picture yourself doing in a fight - and no one was really sure, so I'm trying to find a balance between giving them enough options to excite them, and holding their hands through the choices they won't have the experience to handle.

[Shieldmaiden]

The Red Box should definitely be compatible with the rest of the Essentials line, that's the whole point. It's kind of a screw up if there are problems.

Feats can be a little daunting. I suggest pointing them at simple stuff like improved initiative. I haven't got my 4e books to hand, but if you need some help picking out a few feats to recommend, I can help you with that.

[Matthias]

I agree, I was a bit surprised by that. I also am not a huge fan of the fact that each essentials book only has 4 classes in it, but we'll see if it ends up being worth it.

And that would be a great help, thanks. I know the very basic ones, and if nothing else I'll pull feats from HotFL, since those books are still compatible with the main game regardless of the characters they make.

Thanks to those who have mentioned that CB is free through level 3. I'll have to see if I can get it running in Parallels and mess around with it a bit.

[hunterx280]

EDIT: Read the post above. D'OH!

Using the DnD Insider Character Builder (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Tool.aspx?x=dnd/4new/tool/characterbuilder) makes it so much easier. You have to pay for it but it's about the price of an MMO subscription. Also, you can use it for free up to level 3. I've found the free version seems to be an update or two behind. Last I looked at it, it was missing PHB3 but they've updated it since then so that may have changed.

[J Arcane]

The Red Box is your answer.

Hand them the player's book, let them go through the solo adventure/chargen thingie. The solo adventure will walk them through all the chargen choices and every thing.

Essentials itself is basically 4.5. With the Compendium, Heroes, and the DM Kit, you have basically all the rules you need to play the new version of 4e, once you've exhausted the limits of the Red Box.

That's what I'm doing.

[J Arcane]

I agree, I was a bit surprised by that. I also am not a huge fan of the fact that each essentials book only has 4 classes in it, but we'll see if it ends up being worth it.


The flipside of this is that the Essentials stuff is all only $20-30 each. Significantly less if you go with Amazon.

[Matthias]

The flipside of this is that the Essentials stuff is all only $20-30 each. Significantly less if you go with Amazon.

Yeah, you're saving $15 from $35, but you're getting half the content in a digest-style binding that won't last as long as the hardcovers. I like the style (and price) of the new book, but at the end of the day, you're paying $40 for roughly the same number of base classes and fewer paragon/epic classes as the original PHB, and each class is trimmed down in options. The Amazon price drop is the reason I was okay with buying the Compendium in the first place, and probably the only reason I might buy the Monster's Vault (that and I hear the monsters have been significantly unbroken from MM1)

[J Arcane]

Eh, I'm happier getting into it this way. I like what I've seen of the Essentials rules, they feel more like D&D and less like WoW, there's more effort towards making classes interesting, and since the books are cheaper it means I can get into it for far less than the alternative approach, which would've meant full price 4e corebooks+supplements.

The naming and lineup is a bit confusing at first though.

[Matthias]

Eh, I'm happier getting into it this way. I like what I've seen of the Essentials rules, they feel more like D&D and less like WoW, there's more effort towards making classes interesting, and since the books are cheaper it means I can get into it for far less than the alternative approach, which would've meant full price 4e corebooks+supplements.

The naming and lineup is a bit confusing at first though.

What makes you feel like the classes are less like WoW now? Just that warrior relies less on powers than it had?

And I agree that I prefer getting into D&D this way, if only because there's not a version of the core books with up-to-date errata. The lower price point does give a nicer threshold-to-enter the game, but I just worry that it will add up faster than it needs to.

[J Arcane]

What makes you feel like the classes are less like WoW now? Just that warrior relies less on powers than it had?

The writeup I've seen for the Rogue looks a lot more like a 3e class than 4e's "list of generic powers that all do the same thing".

As well, the statements I've seen from Mearls seem to indicate that's kind of the idea. A lot of Essentials is trying to step back to the feel of the older editions and win back the people like me, while not going so far as to totally alienate the current crop of 4e fans who actually like a little WoW in their tabletop.

Not saying they've totally reversed course, but they've veered enough back towards a style of gaming I actually like that I'm willing to give it a second look.

[mightbe]

Disclaimer: I work for Wizards of the Coast

Pretty much the coolest thing ever for newer players are the two new Essentials sourcebooks.

The Rules Compendium is the size of a paperback and has the collected rules of all of the 4e books thus far with an amazingly helpful index.

Heroes of the Fallen Lands has four new builds of older classes that have very focused progression that doesn't require you to pick your powers from multiple books or out of massive lists to be effective. In HotFL is Thief (a Rogue Build), Warpriest (Cleric), Mage (Wizard), and Fighter (Knight). They play amazingly well next to other 4th Edition classes and all of their rules are collected in their sourcebook for easy reference.

The best part of the books in my opinion is the rugged paperback format. You don't have to lug a pile of hardbacks and they're only $19.95 MSRP (closer to $13 on Amazon, hint hint).

If (any of you) have any questions about the new Essentials stuff, I'm more than happy to answer them!

[Karak]

The writeup I've seen for the Rogue looks a lot more like a 3e class than 4e's "list of generic powers that all do the same thing".

As well, the statements I've seen from Mearls seem to indicate that's kind of the idea. A lot of Essentials is trying to step back to the feel of the older editions and win back the people like me, while not going so far as to totally alienate the current crop of 4e fans who actually like a little WoW in their tabletop.

Not saying they've totally reversed course, but they've veered enough back towards a style of gaming I actually like that I'm willing to give it a second look.

This is good NEWS. I did not know this. I left 4e in the dust due to lack of anyone wanting to play and frankly despising everything about it. I could get back into it if they do even a small amount of what your saying. That makes me a happy man.

[mightbe]

It's also worth noting that D&DI Subscriptions don't give you access to just the Character Builder. You also get the compendium which is a searchable database of all content (monsters, items, feats, classes, paragon paths, etc.) from all of the books (except Dark Sun and Essentials currently) and the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. You can print these directly from the Compendium so that handing out treasure or having your monsters at hand for the night is as simple as a few clicks.

Just this month, a whole new character class (the Assassin) was released for download for D&DI subscribers. And the Assassin is AMAZING.

I highly recommend that at least one person at the table have a D&DI subscription. Sure it costs a bit of coin, but if it's for the DM to make everyone's life easier, you may find the group willing to chip in. It's so much easier to prep for my weekly group with all of the tools that I wouldn't want to go without it.

[Panthera]

I wouldn't recommend those that were turned off by 4e buy too much into the hype of D&D essentials. The new classes don't make that huge of an impact. If you didn't like 4e before, you probably still won't like it now.

[mightbe]

It is definitely still the same rules, just streamlined character builds and rules.

[Tayaya]

I really do need to go and pick up the new Red Box, if only to place next to my old Red Box, which I got at a garage sale for $1.50 when I was like 12.

I did pick up the Castle Ravenloft board game, since this week I have a boatload of OT hours on my paycheck. I haven't opened it up yet but I can say for one thing that the box is a lot taller than I expected. It just feels huge, though unlike the box for Descent, is a great size to put in the gaming cabinet when not in use.

[Matthias]

It's also worth noting that D&DI Subscriptions don't give you access to just the Character Builder. You also get the compendium which is a searchable database of all content (monsters, items, feats, classes, paragon paths, etc.) from all of the books (except Dark Sun and Essentials currently) and the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. You can print these directly from the Compendium so that handing out treasure or having your monsters at hand for the night is as simple as a few clicks.

Just this month, a whole new character class (the Assassin) was released for download for D&DI subscribers. And the Assassin is AMAZING.

I highly recommend that at least one person at the table have a D&DI subscription. Sure it costs a bit of coin, but if it's for the DM to make everyone's life easier, you may find the group willing to chip in. It's so much easier to prep for my weekly group with all of the tools that I wouldn't want to go without it.

Do they also offer printable power cards? I think that'd be a great help for my players.

[Shieldmaiden]

Do they also offer printable power cards? I think that'd be a great help for my players.

Yep, if you create a character, you can print them out with all the power cards.

[Karak]

Yep, if you create a character, you can print them out with all the power cards.

Ya those were pretty cool. One of the things I liked. I found a free one online that prints our power cards as well that look almost as good. In fact I am always surprised what you can find some resourcful kid has programmed for roleplaying. Everytime I check there is something new.

[J Arcane]

I wouldn't recommend those that were turned off by 4e buy too much into the hype of D&D essentials. The new classes don't make that huge of an impact. If you didn't like 4e before, you probably still won't like it now.
I will say that if they wanted to really gain some traction with us older school folks, they'd get rid of the useless and superfluous eladrin and dragon born races.

[TheKeck]

I will say that if they wanted to really gain some traction with us older school folks, they'd get rid of the useless and superfluous sparring and dragon born races.
Really, that's what's holding you back? If those races really bug you that much it would be quite trivial to play without them. :p

[Superman's Dead]

I like my dragonborn.

[TheKeck]

I like my dragonborn.
Supes.... there's something we've all been meaning to talk to you about...

;)

[Panthera]

I'm as old-school as you can get, currently running a 1st ed AD&D game, but I like Dragonborn just fine. It's not the details like that that bug me, it's the core assumptions of the system itself. Not something you can just patch.

[J Arcane]

Argh. Stupid auto-complete.

I mean eladrin, not "sparring".

The Dragonborn are useless just because they serve only to cosmetically duplicate concepts that already existed in the system (half-dragons) without also duplicating their powerlevel.

Eladrin are just completely and pointlessly redundant in every way. "They're elves, but slightly different in a totally inconsequential way. Oh and they teleport."

Umm, OK.

[TheKeck]

Oh and they teleport.
You say this like it's not consequential. :p

My favorite character is an Eladrin. :p :p

[Matthias]

I have to say, I'm fine with both dragonborn and eladrin. WotC isn't the first to differentiate between "high elves" and "wood elves" (heck, Tolkien differentiates between the two, which most adaptations gloss over). Half-elves annoy me more than either of those, to be honestly, especially when there wasn't an orc or half-orc available at first.

In general, I'm a bit annoyed that they tried to remove the "evil" allignments/leanings from the game, especially while providing so much detail within the cosmology about duality

[Pale Ale]

Disclaimer: I work for Wizards of the Coast

Oh good! Some to blame for everything, I'm so happy! :D

[Shieldmaiden]

The only thing I dislike about the dragonborn is that they ditched the very cool dragonborn concept from the Races of the Dragon 3.5 book. I don't see how they're superfluous; the game needed a big, strong race that wasn't a half-orc. I will admit that my main criticism of the 4E core books from a content standpoint is the lack of background information on the races. There definitely could have been more.

[Pale Ale]

I will admit that my main criticism of the 4E core books from a content standpoint is the lack of background information on the races. There definitely could have been more.

I liked how loose it was, nothing was truly supposed to be tacked down. Also they will give you a book of dragonborn fluff all they ask is a small amount of monies in return.

[Lint of Death]

I got myself a copy of Heroes of the Fallen Lands, the first Player's Handbook in the Essentials line, and it seems great so far. It seems to me an excellent starting point.

Regarding the Red Box, I'd be slightly cautious about it. For one, I've seen a lot of information that the included powers, such as wizards' spells, are not consistent with any other product (for example, magic missile can target two creatures instead of one, which is crazy strong for an auto-hit attack). The other thing is that I believe the Red Box only takes characters up to level 3.

I'll write more later, but HotFL puts a ton of effort into explaining the 4e system, such as what powers represent. There's more information about the races included than when they first appeared in the Player's Handbook; there's at least one writeup for each race-class combination available (always two for humans, and you can actually find one or two for half-orc even though they're not in the book) explaining why that race might gravitate toward that class from a background standpoint and what makes an elf cleric different from one of another race.

So far I have one issue with HotFL, and it's that it continues the new ordering first brought to the Character Builder, where you're expected to choose your class first and then your race. I can see the benefit of nailing down the playstyle you're interested in earlier, but it feels so disorienting to me.

[J Arcane]

Red Box goes to level 2, and all rules are in keeping with the Essentials version to the best of my knowledge.

[Matthias]

I got my copy of the Rules Compendium in from Amazon yesterday evening. I'm pretty impressed with it, actually. It even lists some rules, terms, and (I believe) keywords for the Shadow power source (though I haven't see anything about the Elemental source... too early I suppose). Everything is arranged logically, and I have yet to find an area that I wish they had expounded upon more. It's definitely worth the $12.99 I paid for it on Amazon, and I honestly wouldn't have minded paying $20 to my local gaming store.

[Lint of Death]

OK, finally getting around to answering your main dilemma in your threadstarter, Matthias. Before I begin, I'll say that I have experience with introducing 4th edition to new players: I (the DM) and three of my players had limited 3.5 experience, while the other two players had extensive 3.5 experience. Feel free to skip any paragraph you don't care about :p

First, regarding classes and builds: the biggest issue here that you will face is that there are far more archetypes represented in 4th edition than your players will think of on their own - your players might even limit their own ideas based on preconceived notions of what the game will support. For example, they might not let themselves explore the possibility of a heavily armored fist fighter who punches and grapples his way to victory, or distinguish between an illusionist wizard and a psion; and they will never think of the likes of the battlemind or runepriest. So my suggestion is as follows: first ask what power source most interests them (martial, arcane, divine, primal, psionic, or shadow), and then ask how they might like to express that power - if they seem to struggle here, provide some ideas without naming classes. Those two answers should be all you need to recommend a class for them.

My less 3.5-experienced players went with a melee ranger, a barbarian, and a hybrid rogue|sorcerer. The Character Builder makes teaching hybrids very easy because you won't have to do all the math yourself and you won't have to flip between a bunch of books. My more 3.5-experienced players chose a warden and a psion.

Regarding races: I guess just explain that pretty much every classic fantasy race is represented, plus oodles more. HotFL's perspective is that humans actually form the majority of adventurers (compared to dwarves, elves, eladrin, and halflings), underscoring that they're always a good option. I wouldn't go into this any more than the players care to themselves - if you see that they plan to have their characters behave in certain ways, then you might recommend a race that fits the stereotypes. If you want to showcase the amount of coolness available to your players, mention half-orcs, devas, tieflings, shardminds, wilden, genasi, and/or githzerai. This is the perfect time to never, ever tell them about drow.

My less experienced players went with a half-orc, a minotaur, and a doppelganger respectively. My more experienced players went with a dwarf and a wilden respectively.

Regarding feats: This is the Character Builder's weak spot, in my opinion. The sheer number of options really will make your players' heads explode, and yet you'd want them to consider the options because there are a lot of feats that can truly define a character. For example, the rogue feat that lets you dual-wield hand crossbows; bloodlines like Vistani, blightseer tiefling, foulborn, and dhampyr; and let's not forget multiclassing! For new players, I recommend two routes to explore:

1. Give your players feats. This requires some knowledge on your part of the options available. Get an idea of the kind of character they want to make and say, "OK, then you can take the _____ feat, which lets you do such and such." Remind them that, if they ever look into it themselves, there are plenty of opportunities to retrain their previous choice.

2. Limit their choices to one book, or two if you need more than one to build their character (specifically if they end up using a supplement like Martial Power). This should work especially well if you're using HotFL. In HotFL, feats are subdivided into categories based around "themes" - do you want your character to react quickly in battle? be good at skills or languages? be tough? express their devotion to a certain god? There aren't a lot of feats in HotFL, and they are not as character-defining as the examples I gave earlier, but your players are guaranteed to find something useful without getting lost in the options. And that's the point.

Should you get a DNDI subscription for a month?
I would say only do it if any of the following applies to you: either you have a use for it in putting your game together, such as pulling monsters from the Adventure Tools or granting treasure; if your players need it to access certain character options that they intend to use like powers, classes, or races; or if you feel the need to use the most up-to-date ruleset. Otherwise, you'll be just fine without it.

The Character Builder makes putting a character together much easier, but it comes with a few costs beyond $10: your players could miss out on understanding why their statistics are what they are because the Builder does all the math; before learning how to "read" powers and feats, it can be difficult for a player to understand or visualize what a given power is doing, so all the powers look the same; and printing out a character sheet from the Builder means all values will be in ink, making it much replace old info without printing a new one.

[Lint of Death]

Supplement: Should you subscribe for a month now?

Now would be a great time to subscribe, just remember that you always get more the longer you wait. Here are a few reasons why this is an especially good time:

* With the release of the Essentials products, Dragon magazine may have fewer articles lately, but those articles are becoming highly substantial. Essentials builds are easier to supplement with "fundamental" changes like new class features; this month introduced the pyromancy school for mages, and also added features so that all presently released Essentials builds have unique ways to employ the quarterstaff as a weapon of choice. This also means entire new classes being released through the magazine! This month saw the release of a playtest version of the Essentials assassin build, and I believe next month (or November) is supposed to introduce an Essentials build for the Warlord. Subscribing now will get you everything released thus far along with most (if not all) of what comes out next month.

* This month's Insider tools update (Compendium, Character Builder, Adventure Tools) has, in an extremely rare occurrence, been postponed until next month. That may seem bad, but it should be available on the first Tuesday of the month (when updates usually occur) and the update is going to be HUGE. Here's a taste:

Psionic Power
Heroes of the Forgotten Lands
All the stuff from the Dark Sun Campaign Setting, including:
Two new races and four new class builds
Wild talents: level 1 characters get the option of starting with a minor psionic power, such as limited telekinesis, igniting a flammable object, or determining North for an hour. You can also take a feat that, like Linguist, grants you three wild talents.
Themes: think of these as paragon paths for Heroic Tier, but more. All present themes are based around Dark Sun culture, but expect more general ones to be introduced at some point.

* You get five installs or updates of the Character Builder during any given month. If you subscribe for one month now, that's up to 10 installs.

[Lint of Death]

Hopefully that helped you this weekend (or will next weekend) :)

[Matthias]

Ha sorry for the lack of reply; I read your posts, and was pulled away before I could respond. Unfortunately, we didn't get to meet this weekend, as we were all neck-deep in projects. I believe all 5 of us will be available Two Saturdays from now, so at the very least I'll be letting you all know how that goes.

As for the post itself, I like your idea of having them pick a power source first; I was going to try to steer them into a role first, then go from there, but I think working from the power source first would be much more helpful. It may be hard for newbs to visualize the difference between a leader and a controller, but they should be able to figure out whether they want to be a wizard or holy warrior or tribal fighter, even if that manifests as "a wizard, only with a cool sword!" or "a warrior, but who only wears furs and fights with a big axe!". From there, I should be able to guide them into a class/role.

Because it will be a couple weeks before we get to meet, and because I'm a little worried on the time it would take to get 4 new players set up (even with the red box, which takes time to read through), I'm considering sending out an email (via the one player who has all of their contact info- I need to get that asap) that lists each power source with a quick blurb about the type of characters who use that. Perhaps a few days later, if the responses lend themselves to it, I'll send a similar digest out with the roles, so the players can start pairing them in their head and have an idea of what they want before I even get there.

If things go really well, I could continue with a selection of races and maybe even send a blurb about individual classes that a given player's ideas seem to match up with. That could help turn the first meeting into mostly a final check-in with the books, to make sure they like the flavor and powers, followed by the crunchy bits of character creation.

New question: My current plan is to run the party through the short adventure provided in the Red Box, as that's the only pre-gen I currently have available. I don't really want to roll my own adventure just yet, as I'm pretty new to DMing, and this will be my first time with 4e. That being said, are there any 1st-3rd level pre-gen adventures you'd recommend picking up? I'd especially be interested in something set in Eberron, as I think my players would get a kick out of the setting, though FR or other traditional settings would be fine as well.

[Lint of Death]

That's a good idea with the emails. It'll save time that can be used for gaming when you do meet up. I'm trying to get a 4th edition Dark Sun game started with two of my past players, and that's what I've done. Since I've never tried pregen adventures and I enjoy making my own stuff, I provided a section asking what sort of themes they might like to explore in the game (e.g., arena combat, monster hunting, insurrection against the sorcerer-kings). The other section did what you're planning to do - explaining the role of each power source in the world, with special attention given to psionics due to its pervasiveness and alien nature. Then I explained Themes, because they're a huge part of determining the nature of your character, but so far those are only applicable if you're playing Dark Sun.

Granted, I wish I were in your position, because my own players aren't exactly reliable like they used to be, which is a real shame. Crossing my fingers that they'll meet me halfway on getting the game together. If not, it could be the last time I bother trying to play with them :(

To answer your new question, take my advice with a grain of salt: I've never used a pregen adventure except for the single-player (no DM) adventure released in Dragon earlier this year. However, I've heard good things about Dungeon magazine's Chaos Scar adventure path. It's the standard setting, based around the crash site of a meteor that has attracted unsavory types of all sorts trying to reach the evil power at its center (which might be the corrupting influence of the Far Realm if I recall correctly). It seems to contain more level 1 and level 2 adventures than you actually need to level, and most of those released so far cover levels 1-3, though there might be some level 4 and 5 ones already out as well. I believe the path is built so that there's no set order and you can even skip adventures.

[Shrinn]

It's level 5 as opposed to 1-3 but Penny Arcade Gabe's adventure(PDF) (http://download.penny-arcade.com/dnd/Dusk.pdf) is a fantastic way to ease players AND DMs into the game.

[Matthias]

It's level 5 as opposed to 1-3 but Penny Arcade Gabe's adventure(PDF) (http://download.penny-arcade.com/dnd/Dusk.pdf) is a fantastic way to ease players AND DMs into the game.

Ha I was actually just considering letting them start at level 5 so we could play that, but I think at that point the number of options each character would have might be a bit much. We'll see.

[Matthias]

Well, I sent an email out with information for power sources and classes. Two players were initially interested in defender, but one switched to bard immediately after he saw the other player's email. Hopefully he's not upset about it. The third player wants to be a striker, and is considering arcane and martial, which of course are the two powers that each have two strikers. She's a rather indecisive person. I haven't heard back from the 4th player yet; I'm hoping she's legitimately interested in controller, though I almost sent her an email telling her that she doesn't have to pick it if she doesn't want to. I decided to wait to get a response from her, so that I don't influence anything.

I'm also pretty excited about the fact that this group will consist of two guys and three girls total. I'm a bit surprised to see that level of interest so quickly from females, but I suppose they're both engineers, and were recruited by a girl. Apparently the newest member has been wanting to try 4e since it came out, and was pretty quick to narrow her selection down to swordmage or paladin.

At any rate, I think I'm going to take whomever's advice it was on here and run through the Scales of War adventure path, at least to start out. I have two concerns- some of the maps have marks on certain squares to show hazards. Players aren't supposed to know about these, so how do y'all typically cover them up. Also, is there a good guide out there for picking magic items to fill treasure parcels, or do I just have to make a reasonable guess based on the party? I'm not going to have them draw up wish lists for the first session, so they have a chance to get the hang of their system, but hopefully they can poke around a bit once they've broken into the game. Thoughts?

[Lint of Death]

I don't know of any magic item guides, but I haven't looked. The only guideline I'm able to suggest is the new Common/Uncommon/Rare system that Essentials is bringing out. Basically, try to stick with items that have properties instead of powers - they're much easier to manage. Save the ones with powers for more rare and momentous occasions.

Apart from that, filling parcels and picking items you think your players will enjoy is not a bad plan. Maybe try thinking of items in terms of those that enrich a player's preexisting conception of their character, and those that encourage exploration down other paths, like glasses that let you read a language or boots that help you run along walls.

I expect to DM some Dark Sun for two of my players today! This'd be our first game in the setting. Wish me luck (most of the luck would be for that both players show up).

[mightbe]

Love me some dark sun. Enjoy!

[Lint of Death]

It went quite well. Got characters made and RP'd all the way up to the first encounter, which we'll begin with next time. One character's a mul battlerager fighter (gladiator theme), and the other is a tiefling shaper psion (no chosen theme). That means no healer among them, but at least the mul is not only super tough but great at generating temporary hit points.

I'm starting them off in the city of Tyr as enslaved gladiators. The sorcerer-king Kalak is dead, as everyone knows, but the slaves' legal freedom is not set to begin until a week after the game's beginning point. Simply put, as gladiator slaves, for this last week the characters find themselves even more expendable than they might have been in the past, as they will struggle to survive the increasingly rigged and deadly matches and escape their current owner.

[Matthias]

Well last night went pretty well. The fourth player came in wanting a striker/leader combo (for the 'lock's pact boons), so I directed her to the Warlock, then talked to her about what Warlocks and Wizards have in common, and what are different. She ended up really liking the Wizard, which meant we actually have a full-time controller now. She also picked a great daily spell, (I can't remember the name) that involves sliding two targets around and placing thunderballs that cause damage if they are moved through.

Unfortunately, the player who chose bard made Dex a dump stat (mostly due to the character builder's autoselection), then chose several ranged powers while I wasn't looking. The system didn't even autobuy him a bow, so I retconned that into his character. He was attacking at -1 all night, and although he didn't have any melee attacks, refused to anywhere but between monsters and the stationary ranger (his girlfriend).

For the first night, I decided to use the adventure that came in the Red Box. We played encounter 1 (goblins and a drake), although I tried to get them to go to encounter 2 first (kobolds and a baby dragon) instead. It's probably for the best, though, as everyone was still learning their respective role, and we were able to root out some problems with the characters in what is definitely an easier fight.

I did think it was funny that every character except the ranger went arcane- we have a swordmage, wizard, bard, and ranger. I haven't heard that focusing on one power source causes balance issues, but does anyone think this might be an issue?

[Lint of Death]

Good to hear it went smoothly on the whole. Did everyone have fun?

Also, what the? How did your bard end up depending on Dexterity? All bard attacks use Charisma for attack and damage, be they with melee weapons, ranged weapons, or implements (note that you do not need to actually have an implement to use an implement power). And, given your party make-up, he would never need to use the Dex-based ranged basic attack.

edit: Also, I'm positive that at least one of his at-wills should have been an implement attack and not needing a bow. Pretty sure there aren't two ranged weapon at-wills for the bard.

And, yeah, Auto-Buy is not very useful.

edit again: Don't worry about "balancing" power sources. It's a non-issue.

[Matthias]

Good to hear it went smoothly on the whole. Did everyone have fun?

Also, what the? How did your bard end up depending on Dexterity? All bard attacks use Charisma for attack and damage, be they with melee weapons, ranged weapons, or implements (note that you do not need to actually have an implement to use an implement power). And, given your party make-up, he would never need to use the Dex-based ranged basic attack.

edit: Also, I'm positive that at least one of his at-wills should have been an implement attack and not needing a bow. Pretty sure there aren't two ranged weapon at-wills for the bard.

And, yeah, Auto-Buy is not very useful.

edit again: Don't worry about "balancing" power sources. It's a non-issue.

I'm not entirely sure what happened with the bard. He was adamant that Jinx Shot was the only power he could use (until his party inevitably needed healing), and that he didn't know why he kept missing. I do know once he finally hit, he claimed the damage was only 1d4, which would be for an unarmed ranged. I'm going to go through his character and figure out what's going on there, and at the very least suggest some of his other powers for use. I think he was too focused on being a second defender/damaging the bad guy, when he really needed to focus on being an enabler.

I'm not entirely sure that he had fun (the kid's always really stoic and tends to look like he's unhappy to be somewhere), but I know the three other players had fun. I do believe we'll be scheduling another session soon.

Two more questions: Did Character Builder not actually get a September update? Mine says its up to date, but only patched through August 2010, with new books listed as "Demonomicon" and "Tomb of Horrors". Also, how do you print out the battlemats provided with adventure paths and encounters? Or do they want you to sketch the whole thing out on graph paper?

[Lint of Death]

There was no update for September, but there is supposed to be an update tomorrow that includes Psionic Power and some magazine updates. Apparently they still don't have the Dark Sun and Essentials stuff ready?

As for the maps, I know at for Dungeon magazine and possibly the published books, they release the maps as a set of "art" on their website. You can also click on the image in the digital copy and paste it into a program like MSPaint or Photoshop to get access to the full-sized version.

[J Arcane]

Still debating picking up the Essentials set. Red Box was kind of a bust, the solo thing is sooooo boring, worst solo "adventure" I've ever played so far, but I'm not done with it yet, largely because I just don't have the room on my desk to run an entire battlemap combat myself. Ugh.

but I glanced at the books in a shop the other day and kinda liked the look of it.

Alternately considering Gamma World, even though some of the changes seem like pure sacrilege to me. The setting sounds more like TORG-made-trite to me, and the collectible cards thing has no place in a roleplaying game.

[Shrinn]

I think he was too focused on being a second defender/damaging the bad guy, when he really needed to focus on being an enabler.


Hey now, the best/most effective combat character I ever made was a bard that was a buffing defender. I didn't have much in the way of high damage attacks or things to mark but I had the highest defenses of the party and massive amounts of buffs. Bards are very effective at buffing others on their own, and so feats can be very defensive in nature. That was so much fun to play. He was basically someone so obsessed with glory in combat that he became a traveling minstrel so that he could be sure his story was spread correctly.

[mightbe]

There was no update for September, but there is supposed to be an update tomorrow that includes Psionic Power and some magazine updates. Apparently they still don't have the Dark Sun and Essentials stuff ready?

For the October 12th update almost everything will be in the compendium. Dark Sun and Essentials will still be absent from the character creator though.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26004389/Upcoming_October_Update

Note the announcement of the development of "web-based tools".

[mightbe]

Hey now, the best/most effective combat character I ever made was a bard that was a buffing defender. I didn't have much in the way of high damage attacks or things to mark but I had the highest defenses of the party and massive amounts of buffs. Bards are very effective at buffing others on their own, and so feats can be very defensive in nature. That was so much fun to play. He was basically someone so obsessed with glory in combat that he became a traveling minstrel so that he could be sure his story was spread correctly.

Having a tactical warlord or other competent leader can add crazy amounts of damage and utility to the beaters in your party. In our last office Encounters game, we did 167 damage on our our warlord's first turn of the combat. My thief did 79 of that. It's worth noting that we're 5th level characters.

Lamb to the Slaughter (Dragon Magazine 381) is amazingly powerful if you have a few good chargers.

[Matthias]

Hey now, the best/most effective combat character I ever made was a bard that was a buffing defender. I didn't have much in the way of high damage attacks or things to mark but I had the highest defenses of the party and massive amounts of buffs. Bards are very effective at buffing others on their own, and so feats can be very defensive in nature. That was so much fun to play. He was basically someone so obsessed with glory in combat that he became a traveling minstrel so that he could be sure his story was spread correctly.

Oh I don't doubt that; I'm simply saying that based on his probable build, he either was ignoring his defendery melee powers, or he picked powers that focused more on the pure leader role than being a buffy defender. He sent me an email yesterday saying he really enjoyed the game (excellent! he's the one I was worried about), and he downloaded the demo CB to redo his Bard. I haven't reviewed it yet, but I'm glad he's taking an interest. Since we get 5 updates/release, I might change my password to one a little more random/mnemonic, and allow my players to each download CB at their leisure.

[Matthias]

For the October 12th update almost everything will be in the compendium. Dark Sun and Essentials will still be absent from the character creator though.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26004389/Upcoming_October_Update

Note the announcement of the development of "web-based tools".

You have no idea how happy I'd be to see a web-based CB. I and at least one other player run on macs, so I have to boot into my Windows VM every time I want to run CB. It introduces a 5 minute lag before I even get to the update/launch screen, which seems to process pretty slowly for whatever reason, even though the main program runs fine.

That being said, why exactly is there always a lag between a book being published and its data being pushed to CB? I kind of understand it taking a bit to add to compendium, but you'd think all of the crunchy mechanics would be templated into a database, so you could take one file and push it to printsetting and CB-ification at the same time. Is there some other reason for the lag, like waiting for worldwide playtesting to find the last few typos?

[Lint of Death]

Lamb to the Slaughter (Dragon Magazine 381) is amazingly powerful if you have a few good chargers.

That power does look great. At first I thought you were talking about the commando warlord's Orchestrated Offensive power (Dragon 384). Hot dang did Warlords get several boatloads of cool powers in those two Dragon issues or what? I don't think any other class has gotten two powers-aplenty articles in one month. Makes me wish I had an opportunity to play one. The warlord is definitely one of my favorite classes.

[Matthias]

You know, I just don't know how to feel about the class compendiums. I guess it's just a limit on the paperback binding, but only including 4 classes per book still bothers me. Even with the discount, you're spending $45 on the rules compendium and two class compendiums just to catch up with the original PHB. They might as well sell each class separately. At the same time, if they're adding in all the builds and options that were added in later books, that might just make it worth it.

[Matthias]

That power does look great. At first I thought you were talking about the commando warlord's Orchestrated Offensive power (Dragon 384). Hot dang did Warlords get several boatloads of cool powers in those two Dragon issues or what? I don't think any other class has gotten two powers-aplenty articles in one month. Makes me wish I had an opportunity to play one. The warlord is definitely one of my favorite classes.

I had been feeling pretty down on playing a warlock until I read the past couple of Dragon articles. I really like the vestige pact, as it gives you an opportunity to incorporate a few different flavors into one package. Indeed, the vestiges article was really neat, and the patron's article threw down a few really cool ideas. I might have to build one of those soon just for fun.

Also, the Vestige of the Unknown Arcanist (or whatever it's called) is purely epic. I takes a power that an entire psionic paragon path was built around (something time related) and just throws it at you, along with a pact boon and Eyes of the Vestige bonus. Wow.

[Lint of Death]

Off topic sort of, but my IRL Dark Sun campaign has gotten off the ground!
Quick recap: it starts in the arena of Tyr, after King Kalak was deposed but one week before slaves are legally freed. The two players are enslaved gladiators: one is a tiefling psion (a shaper who specializes in making his imagination manifest in reality) and the other is a mul fighter (bred for the arena, specifically the battlerager build).

In the second session, and on the second in-game day, the mul PC was slain. Yeah, that's right, I killed him. Hehe, it wasn't an unfair death, though. Sounds like the player's new PC will be a half-orc ranger (orcs are extinct, whatever, but that's what DMs are for).

[Orca]

That being said, why exactly is there always a lag between a book being published and its data being pushed to CB?

That's been our groups biggest complaint. We get the subs so we don't need to buy the books, but we need to buy the books anyway if we want to have access to them in any kind of timely manner. It seems obvious why they're delayed so much from that perspective.

[Lint of Death]

Annnnnnd I killed that half-orc ranger last night. Oops? At least the party has enough resources now to resurrect him. I pretty firmly believe that both deaths were entirely avoidable for that player, that the circumstances, risks, and alternatives were sufficiently clear.

[mewarmo990]

Hi everyone, I'm a D&D newbie who's been lurking on this thread. Reading through this makes me hope that my first games will be just as enjoyable. I made my first Essentials character (weird how the rules are slightly different than what the Character Builder says) and I'm heading over to a local-ish Encounters session this Wednesday, so here goes nothing...

[Matthias]

Annnnnnd I killed that half-orc ranger last night. Oops? At least the party has enough resources now to resurrect him. I pretty firmly believe that both deaths were entirely avoidable for that player, that the circumstances, risks, and alternatives were sufficiently clear.

You're probably right, but perhaps there's a narrative way to punish him reaching -Bloodied HP rather than killing off characters. Or maybe he needs to learn how to play better.

[Matthias]

Hi everyone, I'm a D&D newbie who's been lurking on this thread. Reading through this makes me hope that my first games will be just as enjoyable. I made my first Essentials character (weird how the rules are slightly different than what the Character Builder says) and I'm heading over to a local-ish Encounters session this Wednesday, so here goes nothing...

That's actually the problem I was talking about with CB lagging behind releases- none of the Essentials rules are in the builder yet, so you're using "classic" 4e rules right now, which differ more for some classes than others.

Either way, I hope you have a great time at Encounters. I've been meaning to try it, but the crowd at my local store is VERY nerdy, to the point where it intimidates me. That and I tend to keep busy on Wednesday nights.

[mewarmo990]

That's actually the problem I was talking about with CB lagging behind releases- none of the Essentials rules are in the builder yet, so you're using "classic" 4e rules right now, which differ more for some classes than others.

Either way, I hope you have a great time at Encounters. I've been meaning to try it, but the crowd at my local store is VERY nerdy, to the point where it intimidates me. That and I tend to keep busy on Wednesday nights.

Yeah, I am hoping that the store crowd (or at least the Encounters group) will be welcoming to newbies. They have big game days once a month but I haven't felt confident enough to try going.

I did use a copy of HotFL to make my character so it would be fully compatible with the Encounters campaign, but previously I had been playing around making characters with my DDI subscriber friend's CB. I was more surprised by the fact that some actual rules differ, rather than just a mere lack of content from Essentials.

A question, then - if I have already been reading through the Player's Handbook and some existing 4e supplements, do you still feel that it is worth it for a new player to buy the Red Box? From what I hear it is really "streamlined" (read: limited) in its options and despite being totally new to tabletop gaming, I rather like the sheer breadth of options in 4e (but damn, there are SO many feats...). I mean, the character creation process has already been a lot of fun for me.

That aside, the Red Box (or more ideally and expensively, Castle Ravenloft because I really want to try that) seems more ideal for getting other new players into the game, which I plan on doing as soon as I learn the ropes of 4e/Essentials.

[Lint of Death]

You're probably right, but perhaps there's a narrative way to punish him reaching -Bloodied HP rather than killing off characters. Or maybe he needs to learn how to play better.

That's a good point. With only two actual PC adventurers, especially two who refuse to play a class that can actually heal, the death conditions might be a bit harsh. There's no doubt in my mind that the player has major lessons to learn, but on future occasions I might have something else happen, like he loses body parts or something. For variety's sake :p

At least, this second time around, they have curried enough favor in the arena (effectively a form of currency) that they can afford to have the ranger resurrected. I've got some very fun ideas for how to work that into the narrative. Here's a taste:

The ranger's backstory is that, after winning a recent arena battle shortly after becoming enslaved, he lashed out and killed a guard. Normally this incurs a penalty as severe as execution, but he was instead transferred to the ownership of another slaveowner (the one who owns the other PC and the previous, dead PC), the greedy Carson Molenti (a human with a lisp, he's a lot of fun to play). Master Molenti already frequently emphasizes how "generouth" he is to have purchased the ranger rather than leaving him to be "ekthecuted". So, now that his latest investment has expired in the arena on the very next day, I'm going to have it be Master Molenti who arranges the resurrection. The PCs are already suspicious that he might be scheming to either kill off his slaves or find a way to still own them after slavery becomes outlawed, so this development should prove a fascinating quandary for our heroes :cool:

[Matthias]

Yeah, I am hoping that the store crowd (or at least the Encounters group) will be welcoming to newbies. They have big game days once a month but I haven't felt confident enough to try going.

I did use a copy of HotFL to make my character so it would be fully compatible with the Encounters campaign, but previously I had been playing around making characters with my DDI subscriber friend's CB. I was more surprised by the fact that some actual rules differ, rather than just a mere lack of content from Essentials.

A question, then - if I have already been reading through the Player's Handbook and some existing 4e supplements, do you still feel that it is worth it for a new player to buy the Red Box? From what I hear it is really "streamlined" (read: limited) in its options and despite being totally new to tabletop gaming, I rather like the sheer breadth of options in 4e (but damn, there are SO many feats...). I mean, the character creation process has already been a lot of fun for me.

That aside, the Red Box (or more ideally and expensively, Castle Ravenloft because I really want to try that) seems more ideal for getting other new players into the game, which I plan on doing as soon as I learn the ropes of 4e/Essentials.

For learning how to create a character? No, if you've been toying with that and understand the process, there's no reason to buy the red box. It does come with a sample dungeon delve, complete with several character/monster tokens and a 7-set of polyhedral dice though, so that might be worth the $20 to you. That's pretty much why I bought it, with the added bonus that I might need the single-player adventures to help teach newbies to play.

And I think Encounters is a great way to start attempting public D&D games- the players shouldn't be very invested in their characters just yet, and there's no penalty for losing, if I remember correctly. It should be a fun way to get to know the local crowd.

[Drayven]

Question, is it possible to use the 3rd edition monster manuals with 4th edition or are they vastly different?

[Shieldmaiden]

Question, is it possible to use the 3rd edition monster manuals with 4th edition or are they vastly different?

Totally different. The best you could do is use 3rd ed. stuff as inspiration for creating your own 4E monsters.

[nnanji]

I would add in that it is really easy to make monsters in 4E, so using 3E creatures as inspiration for new monsters works really smoothly.

[Drayven]

Well what I'm trying to figure out is this. We're starting up a Gamma World campaign and as I understand it the rulesets are the same so creatures and characters from 4e fit right into the GW rules. The question is, should I just buy a 4e monster manual or are there enough rules for creating monsters in the original material that I could just buy the red box and use that as my guide.

[Shieldmaiden]

I think that picking up any 4E monster books is a good investment for GW. I've got the 4E Monster Manual and I'll definitely be using it, although it's highly likely that I'll just use the stat block and make up my own fluff.

[Matthias]

From what I understand, the monsters in MM3 and to a lesser degree MM2 are much more balanced than those in MM1. I don't know the exact details, but if you're only buying one book, you may consider starting with the newer ones and working back.

[Lint of Death]

I don't know everything they did to change monster design in the later books (like MM3 and the Dark Sun Creature Catalog), but I know a core change they made is that newer monsters tend to deal more damage and have fewer hit points.

I don't know a lot about Gamma World either, but I do know that the damage types between GW and D&D differ, so keep that in mind when importing D&D monsters I guess.

[Drayven]

I picked up MM3 and did some spot checking against critters in the Gamma World manual, they match up perfectly. Now I can just change their names and reskin them a bit and away we go!

[mewarmo990]

Hey everyone, just checking into the newbie thread.

So it's been 3 or 4 weeks since I first posted about first playing D&D. I have since played in three Encounters sessions (Keep on the Borderlands) and was invited to play at my local hobby shop's campaign ("Legends of Skyfire"). I also bought Rules Compendium, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, and have Forgotten Kingdoms on preorder from Amazon (though it's been on sale locally since Nov. 5th). I also picked up the Castle Ravenloft board game and some dice, but skipped the Red Box since I figured out how to play on my own and noticed that there wasn't much in the box. I hope that both other newbies and prospective DMs will gain some perspective from my thoughts so far...

Coming from a purely video game background as far as RPGs are concerned, I found 4e easy to adjust to. The thing about gamers like me, especially those who play MMOs (I don't, not anymore), is that we are used to having lots of character customization and powers to maul things with, and 4e doesn't disappoint, especially since I've been playing around with a friend's Character Builder and gawking at the sheer variety of options.

Encounters has been a lot of fun, as most of my local group is incredibly friendly (a few are the scary/hostile sort of nerds) and didn't fit the preconception I had of D&D players at all. The group ran the gamut from college students to stock brokers to gruff, bearded plumbers still in their work clothes. I rolled a Cleric (Storm Warpriest) and had a blast, surprising everyone when I tore through clusters of mobs with my greataxe!

IMO, Essentials is well-designed as far as its purpose goes - to provide newbies with direction and new options after Red Box, to make a slight throwback to old D&D in terms of player options, and to give experienced players the option of distinct, focused new builds. That said, I will be buying a DDI subscription soon so I can have access to everything without paying for a ton of hardcover books. After reading both, HoFL is not really a substitute for the Player's Handbook as far as I am concerned, even if some of the latter is now obsolete. But it's much cheaper and easier to find, which is more appealing to people who haven't made the financial commitment yet.
I've heard some people complaining about Essentials being a money grab or 4.5e or something, but I'm a new player so it doesn't matter to me one way or another.

The Castle Ravenloft board game isn't cheap but it's obviously a high quality product (9 pound box, yeesh) and remarkably similar to 4e. Therefore, it's a great way to get people interested in D&D, which I am in the process of doing. Rather than having a DM (which is good since I don't know how), you cooperate against the board and rules, which generate new areas and monsters in the dungeon. Difficulty is brutal - you WILL die and lose often but that makes it all the more rewarding when your party barely survives.

All in all, my first month of gaming has wildly surpassed my expectations, and I hope it gets even better!

[Lint of Death]

Good to hear! I know I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a copy of Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms, though I don't have much use for it beyond reading material. . . yet. It is a shame, on so many levels, that people are reacting to Essentials the way people reacted to the original release of 4th edition. I suppose not every human starts with +2 Wisdom :p

[Matthias]

Good to hear! I know I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a copy of Heroes of Forgotten Kingdoms, though I don't have much use for it beyond reading material. . . yet. It is a shame, on so many levels, that people are reacting to Essentials the way people reacted to the original release of 4th edition. I suppose not every human starts with +2 Wisdom :p

My only beef with it is that it smacks of spreading content thinner to sell more books. They even left two of the seasons out of the class that advertises four seasons as options... why make people wait? I know several of the classes only have two options, but the Wizard has 3, so 4 certainly isn't a stretch.

[mewarmo990]

They even left two of the seasons out of the class that advertises four seasons as options...

Ahaha, yes, I found that odd. Also for Cavalier, who is supposed to champion chivalric (chevalier = cavalier) virtues such as compassion, justice, sacrifice, and valor... but in the new book there are only Sacrifice and Valor. C'mon, Wizards...

The additional seasons and virtues will likely show up in Dragon magazine (like the Pyromancy school did with Mages), but if they were only going to do four classes per book - even if the multiple sub-builds do make up for it partially - they should have at least included the rest.

Then again, people need to remember that the Essentials books are significantly cheaper than the hardcover PHBs.

[Drayven]

We've decided to switch to a standard 4e adventure after playing some Gamma World and I'm looking forward to getting that going. So far we've just made characters and bashed a few kobolds, the full adventure starts this Saturday. I picked up the red box first and I guess it was OK as it motivated me to go get the Player's Handbook and DM Guide but in hindsight I should've probably skipped the red box and went straight for the guide. I did however, only pay $13 for the box so what the hell. I was surprised at the DM guide, it's mostly a book about how to run campaigns and doesn't seem to actually contain any of the rules or anything. I kind of wish I had known that going in and I would've bought Player's Handbook 2 instead. From what I've seen though the rules look very manageable and it seems to focus more on the adventure aspect then it does on getting bogged down in alot of rules.

[Matthias]

Go pick up the Rules Compendium. best $13 I've spent on the game so far.

[Draconis]

So is the new monster manuals any better then the 1st one?

I keep having to beef up my monsters because my players keep tearing through them with little to no effort or damage on their end unless I do so.

Does the other MM's resolve this?

[Matthias]

From what I understand, MM2 made some strides, but MM3 virtually solved the problem. I also hear the recently released Monster Vault is pretty good. It focuses on the most iconic D&D monsters, and writes them up with MM3 techniques- it actually takes several of the MM1 monsters and fixes them. I'll be picking it up next time I get some free cash.

[Draconis]

Coolness. Let me know what you think Matthias, I am hesitant to buy things as money is tight but if you feel its worth it I will plunk the cash down for it.

Tired of having to artifically beef up my monsters because the pcs have all these movement and stun and weakness powers,.

[Lint of Death]

The Monster Vault also seems to take what MM3 started in terms of lots of flavor text and goes even further, based on the previews.

[Iron Past]

Hey wait. D&D has solo campaigns?! I realize this is obviously not the optimal way to play at all, but I have no one to play with out in the sticks (my wife refuses to even try :o), and I live over an hour from campus. If I could get the Red Box--which doesn't seem expensive at all--and get some play out of it on my own while easing into the rules, that would be cool. Are there other solo campaigns out there? I figure I can play alone till this Virtual Table deal moves out of beta and maybe there will be a newb friendly group on here I can play with.

I will be grabbing Castle Ravenloft as soon as humanly possible; that looks awesome. And I fucking LOVE shit with miniatures!

[Lint of Death]

I've never investigated solo adventures or campaigns. However, one was released in issue 382 of Dragon magazine called Dark Awakenings by Chris Sims. I played it and it's great. Your sidekick is Splug from the Penny Arcade D&D podcasts!

Tip: if you play it, copy the maps in the pdf into any image editing program, and then print them out. They're larger than they look.

[Iron Past]

Okay, prepare for some new guy questions.

I know that the Essentials line is meant to run parallel to the core 4E line, but easier for new players to understand and pick up. What confuses me is the Essentials Rules Compendium. Is that simply a part of the Essentials line, or is actually the new rule set for core 4E play? The Heroes classes are supposed to play nice with the normal 4E rules, but I've heard that classes from PHB 1-3 have had changes made to them for Essentials. I'd like to be able to pick up the PHBs (at some point), but if they're out of date it seems kind of pointless. However if it's just a case where changes were made to be easier and ease folks in, and the core 4E game is still played through the PHB 1-3, then that's fine.

I find it a bit ironic that Essentials is supposed to make things easier on new players, but having this weird parallel play-style is kind of counter-intuitive. :)

At any rate, like mewarmo990 before me, I'll be attending my first Encounters session tomorrow night, after going through the solo adventure in the Red Box. They only run a couple tables for it, and the sign-up sheet only had one of those with people on it, so I'm hoping no one's an asshole. They were pretty clear that new players are welcome there (I asked more than once), and I hope that plays out. I'm pretty excited, to tell the truth, as it'll be my first D&D game.

[J Arcane]

The RC has all the basic rules of "4.25"/Essentials except chargen, dungeon gen and monster stats, which are in the "Heroes of", DM Kit, and Monster book respectively.

If you have those, you don't need any other books.

[Iron Past]

Even if I wanted to play non-Essentials 4E? What about all the classes in the various Handbooks?

[J Arcane]

Even if I wanted to play non-Essentials 4E? What about all the classes in the various Handbooks?
Everything is cross-compatible, supposedly, so if there's something in another book you want, just use it.

[Drayven]

The solo campaigns in the red box are really not anything impressive. The first one is to guide you through character generation and then there's a couple encounters after that. It would maybe keep you busy for an hour or 2 I'd say.

[J Arcane]

The solo campaigns in the red box are really not anything impressive. The first one is to guide you through character generation and then there's a couple encounters after that. It would maybe keep you busy for an hour or 2 I'd say.
This.

Basically, the Red Box is for people who are total and complete noobs to D&D. If you've ever played RPGs before at all, you'll mostly be bored to tears.

Hell, even if you haven't, you may still have trouble getting through the chargen section. Soooo dull . . .

[Matthias]

Okay, prepare for some new guy questions.

I know that the Essentials line is meant to run parallel to the core 4E line, but easier for new players to understand and pick up. What confuses me is the Essentials Rules Compendium. Is that simply a part of the Essentials line, or is actually the new rule set for core 4E play? The Heroes classes are supposed to play nice with the normal 4E rules, but I've heard that classes from PHB 1-3 have had changes made to them for Essentials. I'd like to be able to pick up the PHBs (at some point), but if they're out of date it seems kind of pointless. However if it's just a case where changes were made to be easier and ease folks in, and the core 4E game is still played through the PHB 1-3, then that's fine.

I find it a bit ironic that Essentials is supposed to make things easier on new players, but having this weird parallel play-style is kind of counter-intuitive. :)

At any rate, like mewarmo990 before me, I'll be attending my first Encounters session tomorrow night, after going through the solo adventure in the Red Box. They only run a couple tables for it, and the sign-up sheet only had one of those with people on it, so I'm hoping no one's an asshole. They were pretty clear that new players are welcome there (I asked more than once), and I hope that plays out. I'm pretty excited, to tell the truth, as it'll be my first D&D game.

The rules compendium has all of the system rules that have been added/errata'd since PHB/DMG1; this includes all of the special mechanics classes have introduced in PHB2 and 3. Even if you have no interest in Essentials, I would pick this up.

Even before Essentials, most of the classes in PHB1 (indeed, most of the early books themselves) have been errata'd to the point of being semi-unrecognizable. Fortunately, there are going to be a series of Class Compendiums coming out that will give full, up-to-date versions of each of the non-Essentials classes; unfortunately, the first 4 classes are still a few months out (I want to say March?).

If you want to play non-Essentials, i honestly would get a DDi subscription and use Character Builder, at least for the time being. That will walk you through character creation just fine, and while I haven't played around with the new online CB, the old downloadable one had the full write-ups for each class/race/power, you didn't have to go page-searching through each and every book you were looking to source from.

The Essentials classes are supposed to be pretty compatible with non-Essentials material, to the point where you can supposedly swap feats and powers between the sections if you want, but the classes themselves have vastly different play-styles and fluff. The Essentials warlock is really not at all like the original, and the only one I think has stayed more-or-less the same stylistically is the Wizard. Some classes have even changed power source or team role, which I'm not really sure I agree with. I especially don't like that they had to make the ranger half-primal just to justify him now being a controller, when half of his controllery things involve Green Arrow-style "arrows which splatter enemies with various goos and poisons", which to me has a very Martial, non-magicy feel to it.

But I digress...

[J Arcane]

For the most part, the design of the Essentials classes is to make them feel more in line with the design of the previous D&D editions' classes, particularly 3.x.

For that I am eternally grateful, because I think 4e's classes were the worst kind of rubbish, with no flavor or definition of their own, just crude skeletons on which one bolted on thousands of mostly identical feats and powers.

Essentials still has some of this problem, but ultimately I felt there was far more definition to them than was on offer in 4e.0.

[Matthias]

For the most part, the design of the Essentials classes is to make them feel more in line with the design of the previous D&D editions' classes, particularly 3.x.

For that I am eternally grateful, because I think 4e's classes were the worst kind of rubbish, with no flavor or definition of their own, just crude skeletons on which one bolted on thousands of mostly identical feats and powers.

Essentials still has some of this problem, but ultimately I felt there was far more definition to them than was on offer in 4e.0.

See, I have to disagree there. There's been plenty of flavor in 4th edition, it just didn't force feed itself on the mechanics quite so much; each class has a different mechanical style, AND my fighters never got bored. The system emphasizes tactics and teamwork a lot more outright, so you don't need some munchkin to make a wizard effective before level 10. It does ask players to role play apart from the mechanics, however, which many people seemed unable to grok. It also didn't introduce flavor that got in the way of mechancs- now people don't mind playing with a paladin, who previously had lawful good shoved so hard up his butt that the party couldn't jaywalk without him losing power and complaining.

[Iron Past]

Thanks, that's about what I figured. I have the Rules Compendium, both Heroes books and a 9-dice set with dice bag on it's way from Amazon for $46, which seems like a good deal to me. Currently, the first Class Compendium is slated for release in February 2011, in the same 'digest' form factor as the Essentials stuff, I believe.

[Iron Past]

Okay, the Encounters deal was pretty fun! The DM was really nice and more than willing to explain anything I asked, even in the middle of throwing dice. He would also occasionally suggest what he thought would be the best course of action for someone's turn--not just for me but the more experienced players as well. The group was very laid-back as well, and chatty and good-natured. Spent over two hours playing, but maybe half of that was actual game time.

Honestly, that's what's been holding me back, the fear of drawing a hardcore group in a public thing like that, or an asshole DM. I almost left when I saw all the rules I had no idea about thinking they'd be pissed at me for not knowing what to do, but I'm glad I stuck around. Got invited to the after-game get-together at Dairy Queen and everything. I'm pretty excited to go back and roll my own character instead of the pregenerated ones.

[Drayven]

That's awesome. If you get with the right group D&D can be a blast. I always enjoy when it's more about story telling and hanging out then it is about strict, rigid rules.

[Iron Past]

So, does anyone know where I can find more solo adventures, official or otherwise? I'll be trying to get to that Encounters group as often as I can, but with it being so far away there's no guarantee how often I can make it and I doubt I'll find a real group anywhere near any time soon.

Something along the lines of the Ghost Tower of Witchlight Fens (which you can find from a code in the Red Box) is great. It has tactics to let me know how the monsters behave, and stat sheets all in it so I don't need to have anything else. I'd seriously consider a D&DI sub if Dungeons had some solo stuff in it (in addition to the other stuff), but I don't know if those are available through it. Any knowledge would be appreciated, and as soon as the Virtual Table gets out of beta (or goes open), then there needs to be a campaign happening here.

Also, I just found this thing online that seems pretty neat. It's called the 4e Power Toolkit (http://www.theplaywrite.com/dungeons-and-dragons/introducing-the-4e-power-toolkit-create-your-own-classes-races-powers-and-power-cards/) and lets you make your own power cards. I suppose the main thrust is to let people create their own powers, but I figured it would be nice to use for the official ones, too. I'd given thought to buying power card sets, but with so many new ones added and rule changes occasionally happening, it seems like they would get out of date with no way to get the newer ones, and I don't have access to the Character Builder.

[Shrinn]

See, I have to disagree there. There's been plenty of flavor in 4th edition, it just didn't force feed itself on the mechanics quite so much; each class has a different mechanical style, AND my fighters never got bored. The system emphasizes tactics and teamwork a lot more outright, so you don't need some munchkin to make a wizard effective before level 10. It does ask players to role play apart from the mechanics, however, which many people seemed unable to grok. It also didn't introduce flavor that got in the way of mechancs- now people don't mind playing with a paladin, who previously had lawful good shoved so hard up his butt that the party couldn't jaywalk without him losing power and complaining.

More people need to read this* (http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/fauxspects-fate-and-4e-part-2/). There's a lot more to powers than people give them credit for. What sort of person would use a power like x? My friend was a gnome rogue who had all sorts of shifting and jumping powers, and they fit his personality because he was an acrobat.

If you don't use powers to roleplay your character, that's your fault, not the power system's fault.

*Now, he gets a bit more into it than just "what does your power say about your character?", but the point still stands!

[Pale Ale]

More people need to read this* (http://at-will.omnivangelist.net/2010/11/fauxspects-fate-and-4e-part-2/). There's a lot more to powers than people give them credit for. What sort of person would use a power like x? My friend was a gnome rogue who had all sorts of shifting and jumping powers, and they fit his personality because he was an acrobat.

If you don't use powers to roleplay your character, that's your fault, not the power system's fault.

*Now, he gets a bit more into it than just "what does your power say about your character?", but the point still stands!

Woah Woah Woah!

Lets not get crazy now. Not reading all the powers is a time honored tradition of RPGS. Skimming the powers and picking the "bestest" is a virtue that any pen and paper aficionado must hold in their hearts. A hallowed tradition older than many of us. A game which gives us options must know the bitter harvest they reap. It's their fucking fault!