Ubuntu 8.10 upgrade...

[total]

So about an hour ago I hit the upgrade button on my Ubuntu box (terrible insomnia...this is how I occupy my time). I'm going to say up front that I have a fairly customized install and can't wait to see what happens. I'm picturing a gate to hell opening in my backyard and little claymation demons coming out to take my soul. Reboot commencing in approximately 30 seconds, this should be interesting.

[total]

Holy shit it even kept the correct tabs open. So far so good. Wait why the fuck did I put this in the deals forum. I fail.

[boratika]

Your insomnia shows.

[drobvice]

The deal part is that it was FREE!!! Also, how did the upgrade go? I have a fairly stock Wubi install that I upgraded during beta and it went smoothly.

[Worldcrafter]

I just upgraded my work comp to 8.10. I had to remove a line from xorg.conf before X would fully cooperate, but otherwise it's been a smooth setup. Akregator looks nice and Yakuake's "Open on Screen 2" option actually works this time around. They made some changes to Konsole I don't like and I'm getting some bad GUI artifacts when scrolling. It's like the menus aren't being refreshed until I "paint" over them with my mouse. Otherwise, it's looking good!

[total]

My upgrade went great actually. Aside from having some minor mouse issues (no back or forward buttons in Nautilus) it is working perfectly.

[Spectre-7]

I just upgraded my work comp to 8.10. I had to remove a line from xorg.conf before X would fully cooperate, but otherwise it's been a smooth setup. Akregator looks nice and Yakuake's "Open on Screen 2" option actually works this time around. They made some changes to Konsole I don't like and I'm getting some bad GUI artifacts when scrolling. It's like the menus aren't being refreshed until I "paint" over them with my mouse. Otherwise, it's looking good!

Nice. I didn't know Yakuake was in active development again. That was one of my favorite apps back when I was rockin' Linux.

Is it sad that a terminal was one of my favorite apps?

[Xerxes]

I might try and install Ubuntu, one more time.

[boratika]

I might try and install Ubuntu, one more time.

Wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/). It makes installing Ubuntu just as easy as installing any windows program. No partitioning or any junk like that. And it sets the boot loader to select windows by default, which is a nice non-threatening touch.

[muddi900]

My eyes opened when I ran ubuntu. Full 3D windows effects while using only 600MB of memory! XP uses that much to edit simple text files :eek:

[Xerxes]

Wubi (http://wubi-installer.org/). It makes installing Ubuntu just as easy as installing any windows program. No partitioning or any junk like that. And it sets the boot loader to select windows by default, which is a nice non-threatening touch.

How would this work if I already have one not so great version of Ubuntu already on my computer? I mean I was in the process of tinkering with things not working like bluetooth and wifi. Aside from that it's functional. Will it overwrite on that partition, or do what it does on it's on?

[Xerxes]

Bump?! Should I just use partition magic to make one whole partition and then use wibu?

[muddi900]

use wubi. that way, if you don't like it, uninstall it in windows, no repartioning crap.

[Xerxes]

use wubi. that way, if you don't like it, uninstall it in windows, no repartioning crap.

It's already partitioned.

[muddi900]

Partitioned for linux? Then install it. Unless you have windows partitions. Then use WUBI.

[boratika]

The main point of Wubi is that you don't need to partition, but there's also advantages to having it on it's own partition. Mostly this:
What is the performance?

The performance is identical to a standard installation, except for hard-disk access which is slightly slower than an installation to a dedicated partition. If your hard disk is very fragmented the performance will degenerate.

Any gotcha?

Hibernation is not supported under Wubi, moreover Wubi filesystem is more vulnerable to hard-reboots (turning off the power) and power outages than a normal filesystem, so try to avoid unplugging the power. An Ubuntu installation to a dedicated partition provides a filesystem that is more robust and can better tolerate such events.
So, I'd say maybe go for a clean install of Ubuntu on the Linux partion, then find some plain english advice on any problems. That last bit can be a hard one, but I think Straximus was giving out some. Maybe by saying his name, I will invoke him...

Personally I suck at figuring out why things don't work in Linux, so I can't really offer any help.

[Xerxes]

Gah, installing it wasn't the hard part any ways. Conforming it was.

[muddi900]

The main point of Wubi is that you don't need to partition, but there's also advantages to having it on it's own partition. Mostly this: So, I'd say maybe go for a clean install of Ubuntu on the Linux partion, then find some plain english advice on any problems. That last bit can be a hard one, but I think Straximus was giving out some. Maybe by saying his name, I will invoke him...

Personally I suck at figuring out why things don't work in Linux, so I can't really offer any help.

Actually for a new user, wubi is the best option.

If only I didn't have game, DAMNIT!

[Gormanimal]

Gah, installing it wasn't the hard part any ways. Conforming it was.

Conforming it?

[Xerxes]

Conforming it?

Maybe that's not the right word. But once it's installed, then you have to go through finding what's not working and finding ways to get it to work. So I have to start going back and fourth to forum and typing in sudo lines to try and get drivers and crap working. I had ubuntu working once, but then i tried the upgrade version button. Boooooo. It messed up everything. I reinstalled it since then, but couldn't get it to work properly.

[Gormanimal]

Maybe that's not the right word. But once it's installed, then you have to go through finding what's not working and finding ways to get it to work. So I have to start going back and fourth to forum and typing in sudo lines to try and get drivers and crap working. I had ubuntu working once, but then i tried the upgrade version button. Boooooo. It messed up everything. I reinstalled it since then, but couldn't get it to work properly.

Is it a notebook or PC that it's going on? I just ask because my experiences lately with Ubuntu and other distros has involved little tweaking/conforming. It's definitely one of the few remaining areas that I feel needs a lot of work in the Linux world before a large part of the everyday computer users will be ready to jump in comfortably.

[Xerxes]

Is it a notebook or PC that it's going on? I just ask because my experiences lately with Ubuntu and other distros has involved little tweaking/conforming. It's definitely one of the few remaining areas that I feel needs a lot of work in the Linux world before a large part of the everyday computer users will be ready to jump in comfortably.

Notebook. It's been about 2 ubuntu releases since I've done it.

[Gormanimal]

Notebook. It's been about 2 ubuntu releases since I've done it.

Yeah, that would do it. All the customized hardware put in notebooks makes things difficult. There are certain models that are fully compatible - I'm sure there's a wiki for it somewhere. They are slowly making progress though.

[Xerxes]

Yeah, that would do it. All the customized hardware put in notebooks makes things difficult. There are certain models that are fully compatible - I'm sure there's a wiki for it somewhere. They are slowly making progress though.

Yeah... My Vosto was almost there. Uses mostly standard dell hardware.

[total]

Yeah... My Vosto was almost there. Uses mostly standard dell hardware.

I had the same problem with my Acer 8103 in like 5.10. I had to manually configure my wireless card and video was a pain and so on and so forth. I did a fresh install of 8.10 on it and everything works perfectly out of the box. My notebook actually runs Ubuntu better than my desktop now (which I game with). They are definitely getting better with some notebooks, and you would think Dells would be the easy ones.

[Whunpo]

So I'm downloading Ubuntu now, and I'm wondering if there's anything I should know about while I'm getting into this.

Also: I'm teaching myself a bit of programming by fiddling around on my graphing calculator. What's a good next step in terms of a bit more complicated programming?

[J Arcane]

So I'm downloading Ubuntu now, and I'm wondering if there's anything I should know about while I'm getting into this.

Also: I'm teaching myself a bit of programming by fiddling around on my graphing calculator. What's a good next step in terms of a bit more complicated programming?
Learn Python. It's the bestest.

[KingGorilla]

So I'm downloading Ubuntu now, and I'm wondering if there's anything I should know about while I'm getting into this.


Wobbly Windows kicks ass.

[Whunpo]

Learn Python. It's the bestest.

So I say "I'm interested in learning Python" to my coder friend, and he laughs at me, and tells me it's not a good starting language. He recommends Java. I do some googling, and I read that Java is not a good starting language, and that C is a better place to start. He disagrees.
I am confused. Help me, CoG, you're my only hope!

(and Wobbly Windows looks fucking tight, KG. I will be installing that ASAP.)

[J Arcane]

So I say "I'm interested in learning Python" to my coder friend, and he laughs at me, and tells me it's not a good starting language. He recommends Java. I do some googling, and I read that Java is not a good starting language, and that C is a better place to start. He disagrees.
I am confused. Help me, CoG, you're my only hope!

(and Wobbly Windows looks fucking tight, KG. I will be installing that ASAP.)
The thing you have to understand, is that the vast majority of programmers are basically sadomasochists. I mean, you're talking about people who willingly program in C. They just can't be trusted with such a question.

Python is a great language for beginners, there's a lot of support for it, it's incredibly flexible and easy to learn, but also incredibly powerful, and widely used for a large number of different applications.

The only thing that's wrong with Python is that it doesn't punish you for not being psychotic.

[Whunpo]

The thing you have to understand, is that the vast majority of programmers are basically sadomasochists. I mean, you're talking about people who willingly program in C. They just can't be trusted with such a question.

Python is a great language for beginners, there's a lot of support for it, it's incredibly flexible and easy to learn, but also incredibly powerful, and widely used for a large number of different applications.

The only thing that's wrong with Python is that it doesn't punish you for not being psychotic.
My friend claims that learning Python wouldn't be as useful because learning either C or Java would making learning the other a snap. Would learning Python make Java/C easier?

[J Arcane]

My friend claims that learning Python wouldn't be as useful because learning either C or Java would making learning the other a snap. Would learning Python make Java/C easier?
Learning any proper structured language should theoretically assist you, at least on a meta level, in learning any other language.

But really, even that could apply to any number of different random pairings of languages. It's most about learning good programming habits in general, and in theory, you can pick that up with anything from QBasic to C to Python to Pascal.

The real criteria to consider is going to be what you're doing with it, and how easy it will be to learn enough to really get started doing something more than "Hello World", as well as the quality of tutorial information available.

For a hobby programmer, C/C++/Java are all really far beyond the pale. C/C++ because they are the king daddies of sadomasochistic programming language, and Java because in addition to being complicated, poorly documented, and generally obtuse, it's also a completely shit environment to bother writing anything in because even the simplest of applications will result in an incredible amount of effort being expended on something only to have it still run like crap.

[LiquidRain]

For a hobby programmer, C/C++/Java are all really far beyond the pale. C/C++ because they are the king daddies of sadomasochistic programming language, and Java because in addition to being complicated, poorly documented, and generally obtuse, it's also a completely shit environment to bother writing anything in because even the simplest of applications will result in an incredible amount of effort being expended on something only to have it still run like crap.
Have you done C/C++ or Java development? I wouldn't recommend C/C++ as a learning experience either, unless you like a challenge, but calling them "sadomasochistic" goes a little far. Did a C++ program kill your dog when you were a child? Or did you just give up when you couldn't understand what a pointer was?

And calling Java:
- "Complicated." It's not. No more so than any other language. If you can grasp any serious level of object orientation, Java is not a problem.
- "Poorly documented." I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. Java's API and libraries are very well documented, always have been.
- "Generally obtuse." What language doesn't have some obtuse APIs/objects? You sound like you're complaining because, oh god, it's different!!! KILL IT!!
- "Completely shit environment." Sounds like someone wrote everything in Notepad instead of using Eclipse! Sucks to be you!
- "Incredible amount of effort." No more so than any other serious programming language.
- "Run like crap." Aaaaaaahahahahah. Oh god. You crack me up. Sure, Swing was horrifically slow, bulky, and was generally crap, and deserves to be mocked. Take a look at better Java apps like Freemind. Go work in an enterprise Java environment and then get back to me. Your green is showing. Very, very badly. Java benchmarks with native C++ apps in server performance and has the benefit of running the exact same on AIX as it does on HP-UX as it does on Linux.

Nice. I didn't know Yakuake was in active development again. That was one of my favorite apps back when I was rockin' Linux.

Is it sad that a terminal was one of my favorite apps?
As if I needed any more reasons to love you, Spectre. ;)

[TrackZero]

Have you done C/C++ or Java development? I wouldn't recommend C/C++ as a learning experience either, unless you like a challenge, but calling them "sadomasochistic" goes a little far. Did a C++ program kill your dog when you were a child? Or did you just give up when you couldn't understand what a pointer was?

And calling Java:
- "Complicated." It's not. No more so than any other language. If you can grasp any serious level of object orientation, Java is not a problem.
- "Poorly documented." I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are. Java's API and libraries are very well documented, always have been.
- "Generally obtuse." What language doesn't have some obtuse APIs/objects? You sound like you're complaining because, oh god, it's different!!! KILL IT!!
- "Completely shit environment." Sounds like someone wrote everything in Notepad instead of using Eclipse! Sucks to be you!
- "Incredible amount of effort." No more so than any other serious programming language.
- "Run like crap." Aaaaaaahahahahah. Oh god. You crack me up. Sure, Swing was horrifically slow, bulky, and was generally crap, and deserves to be mocked. Take a look at better Java apps like Freemind. Go work in an enterprise Java environment and then get back to me. Your green is showing. Very, very badly. Java benchmarks with native C++ apps in server performance and has the benefit of running the exact same on AIX as it does on HP-UX as it does on Linux.


As if I needed any more reasons to love you, Spectre. ;)

I'm not even a "hardcore" coder myself, but even I know all the points Liquid just listed are correct.

[Spectre-7]

As if I needed any more reasons to love you, Spectre. ;)

I was just about the say roughly the same about your technical smackdown above. Does this mean we're going steady now? :D

[J Arcane]

You can all scream and moan all you want, but until I see one damn Java app that doesn't run dog slow on every piece of hardware you throw at it, I'll continue to grace it with a lower opinion than any language I've ever come in contact with.

At least C/C++ have the speed to make up for their other faults. Java doesn't even have that.

[LiquidRain]

Unfortunately if I showed you or told you from my experience I'd probably get fired, so I'll tell you from someone else's.

Goldman Sachs? Their core messaging software is programmed in mainframe-friendly language, but every support app that handles their 2+ million system messages/hour is dealt with in Java. I repeat: Java is fast enough for Goldman Sachs. Stock brokers. In New York.

Like I said. Get into an enterprise environment that takes development and its systems seriously and you will find a very different story regarding Java. The burden of proof here is on you - I have seen Java systems fly through an enormous amounts of transactions without breaking a sweat. The only slow and clunky apps I've seen are all desktop apps like Vuze or anything based on Swing. (and even then, Vuze/Azerus used to just be a memory hog, absolutely nothing wrong with its UI performance or its UI looks, and I'd blame its memory problems on sloppy programming)

And thanks for the heads up on Yakuake, Worldcrafter and Spectre. I've tried Tilda out before (GNOME's equivalent), but I never really liked it for some reason. Yakuake has some basic golden options I much prefer, and on top of it uses Konsole, my terminal emulator of choice. (I'm a weird guy - give me the GNOME desktop with GNOME Do any day, but I use a lot of KDE apps like Konsole, KWrite, and Amarok)

[boratika]

Goldman Sachs? Their core messaging software is programmed in mainframe-friendly language, but every support app that handles their 2+ million system messages/hour is dealt with in Java. I repeat: Java is fast enough for Goldman Sachs. Stock brokers. In New York.

So... you're saying Java caused the recent Wall Street troubles? Curse you Java! *shakes fist menacingly*

[LiquidRain]

So... you're saying Java caused the recent Wall Street troubles? Curse you Java! *shakes fist menacingly*
The systems aren't to blame, it's the idiots who game the algorithms in them. (my friend isn't in that department, or I'd have wrung his neck a long time ago)

[boratika]

The systems aren't to blame, it's the idiots who game the algorithms in them. (my friend isn't in that department, or I'd have wrung his neck a long time ago)

So you're saying Java made people idiots?

[Xerxes]

I still haven't installed it yet. Grrr.

[Shjinta]

My programming knowledge doesn't go further than TcL / TK lol