Only Capcom gets it! Still!

[Farsight]

A great interview with the head of Capcom:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-09-03-capcoms-keiji-inafune-interview

I still stand by my comment I made last year. I haven't seen any change whatsoever in Japan. Therefore I'm very pessimistic about the games industry in Japan. The Japanese game creators have to admit we're behind the Western games at this moment and try to be humble and learn why. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to start all over again.
---
I see it inside Japan as, traditionally, not many people play Western games to start with. Now, they are starting to release some of the games.

However, still, the centre of the market is Japanese games. They're just looking at Japanese games. They don't even compare with Western games because Western games are seen in a completely different category.
---
Japan being a small island, especially in the videogame industry, we had the golden age of eighties and nineties, and people are still living in that glorious time. They're trapped in a time warp.

[J Arcane]

The problem with Japanese game design is that they are relentlessly conservative to the extreme, and their development culture, at least in the main companies, is incredibly unimaginative and restrictive of creativity.

We think Activision or EA is bad, but think about it. For all the evils of even Actiblizz these days, even they can't milk an idea like the Japanese studios can.

I mean think about it, there are how many Final Fantasy games now? All still basically remaking Dragon Quest, itself on it's 9th + spinoffs, which was in itself just some nerds crude attempt to ape Wizardry and Ultima?

Megaman, Mario, Zelda, Street Fighter, shit, one is hard pressed to think of a major Japanese studio whose stable does not consist entirely of sequels well into the double digits at this point if you actually count them. Even companies like Atlus that everyone gives so much credit to for how much more creative they are than everyone else in Japan, are still mostly just pumping out the same "JRPG with a twist" over and over again, they just put different names on each one.

Japan goes through these cycles periodically, where they wise up and start latching onto what the West is doing, so they start grabbing everything they can steal and they do well with that for a while, but then the rest of the world moves on while they keep remaking the same shit over and over. What few genuinely original or clever things they do make often don't make it over here anyway because they all have the impression we're an even bigger bunch of unimaginative clods than the guys buying up ren'ai games.

I'm glad they're slowly starting to wake up to this in some of the studios, I just hope that it actually sticks, and more importantly, that they don't just find a new handful of Western games to copy and then go right back to remaking them a million times.

[AversionFX]

"All Japan does is make the same games."

Have you not been paying attention to the Western game industry? 90+% of blockbuster releases are sequels. More than half of them are shooters.

[ElektroDragon]

If Capcom "got it" they wouldn't put stupid time limits in their games. (see Dead Rising and sequel, or the whole Lost Planet freeze without more hot stuff thing)

[Superman's Dead]

The point is that even if they're sequels, the original game in the series isn't older than some of the players. And the FPS is a newer genre than the linear RPG, so that doesn't really disprove the argument.

Elektro: This is just you being contrary, right? You see a time limit as a drastic design flaw overarching in Capcom games?

[KamaItachi]

Capcom have been one of the most forward thinking devs in Japan for a long time, they've been getting their feelers out to start Western style teams for a while now and I can see them reaping the reward just around the time a lot of the other big hitters start to see it all go wrong.

This isn't just a video game thing though, Japan has always been incredibly introverted about all of their industries, but in this day and age, you can't survive in a vaccum.

[menage]

I actually don't think Japanese games are thet much more conservative compared to our major Blockbusters.

Call of Duty, Halo, Mortal Kombat, Fable, Fallout, etc. All very good games living on incremental updates and improvements, but in basis they are the same game over and over again.

On the opposite side you could argue that games like FFXIII or Mario Galaxy really are nothing like the games they started out as, even if we do recognize the universe they play in.

I just think it's a stupid discussion and a very self centered one if I might add (which was the freaking problem he tried to single out). Western games means the rest of the fucking world. Japan is just one country. I know the US produces a lot of those games, but there are tons of games coming out from the UK, France, the Netherlands, Germany, Australia, etc. Why is singling out their own country calling doom so important to them? Sure they lost a stake of the market, but that's just because the rest of the world has gotten into gamemaking as well, they had a headstart they could never keep up. If nobody else is competing your bound to be marketleader at one point. Nothing to do with their games but with levelling the playing field.

It's also not that earthshaking that demographic differences create different tastes in what people like. I eat bread, others eat rice. And I really don't like Japanese baking bread if I might add. Just look at Vanquish. It's probably a great game but I really don't like the "Western" vibe they gave it.

As long as games like Demon's Souls (yeah, I know, but it's really pretty Japanese at it's core), Last Guardian, el Shaddai, Majin, etc get made I'm still there. I love rice.

[BigJonno]

I don't think it's conservatism so much as isolationism. Japanese game developers seem to be, by and large, intentionally ignorant of what the rest of the world is doing. J's Final Fantasy example is a good one; they take inspiration from Western RPGs over twenty years ago and then seem to completely ignore the genre's development in favour of relentlessly polishing the initial concept. Just compare the last two decades of Western RPGs and the last two decades of Japanese RPGs.

On the opposite side you could argue that games like FFXIII or Mario Galaxy really are nothing like the games they started out as, even if we do recognize the universe they play in.

Seriously? Look at FFXIII and the original. Now compare, say, Dragon Age to Wizardry.

[menage]

Final Fantasy "doesn't change" (well, like I said XIII did to a point that I don't really like it anymore, XII really was totally different from the rest, etc.) because it sells 5 million copy's. They even sell truckloads in the West. Why would they change? It's really not that different form Halo not changing.

Is Halo or Call of Duty really that different form the game they started out as 10-15 years ago? Shit that sells truckloads won't change because it would be stupid to change. And like I said, don't look at the sequels, look at the Demon's Souls'/el Shaddai's for innovation. Just like we look at ... damn, see I can't even sum something really noteworthy coming from the West from the top of my head.

Seriously? Look at FFXIII and the original. Now compare, say, Dragon Age to Wizardry.

I really don't see your point. For me FFXIII really isn't what FF used to be, DA is a game which dives to deep in it's roots to be called innovative. Heck it takes it's cue form Baldur''s gate. Only thing different is a branching story.

The only thing Japan is really is slacking behind imo is the use of physics and stuff like that for me, raw tech. Then again, the DS, the Wii, the 3DS, the Japanese were the first to put cd drives, dvd drives, br drives in consoles, (if were not counting innovative prospects like the CD-I which I wouldn't even call a console), etc. As far as hardware goes they still innovate plenty which affects how we play games now.

[Dukefrukem]

If Capcom "got it" they wouldn't put stupid time limits in their games. (see Dead Rising and sequel, or the whole Lost Planet freeze without more hot stuff thing)

Dude really? In three threads I've see you post this now...

[destoo]

http://destoo.com/images/objection.png

The problem with most franchises is that if you try to break the original game, you lose fans and end up taking a risk, with no one actually liking your game. (sonic with a gun.. psssscht!)

The Wizardry franchise is still going on in Japan and not in US. That has probably allowed them to "break the mold" and stray from the Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest games types.

(I just wanted to plug that big-ass objection image)

[Chris_D]

I can't disagree overall, but somehow I still find myself buying a lot of Japanese games. I think part of it is still feeling comfortable with what I've enjoyed in the past regardless of whether it is particularly evolutionary.

[Gorvi]

Funny, I don't own a single current gen Capcom game. :P

Of all the big Japanese publishers I've actually been most impressed with SEGA over the past few years, at least when it doesn't involve Sonic.

[Farsight]

Funny, I don't own a single current gen Capcom game.

You're a PS3 guy - their best current gen game was a 360 exclusive.

I can't disagree overall, but somehow I still find myself buying a lot of Japanese games. I think part of it is still feeling comfortable with what I've enjoyed in the past regardless of whether it is particularly evolutionary.

You're in Japan. I'm guessing japanese games are a bit higher profile over there. :)

On the NES, I owned mostly Japanese games. By the PS1, I was probably down to 50/50, thanks to the heavy (and excellent) British/Amiga influence. This gen, Capcom has made the only 2 Japanese titles I'd even consider buying.

Most Japanese games just seem... crude. Like budget titles. And I don't mean technologically (although they're often behind in that department as well), I mean in things like basic user interface and polish. Japanese games seem to still be built on the assumption that you've read the manual. They often skim over basic gameplay and what "the rules" are. When I was a kid, I had all the free time in the world to slog through and overcome rough edges in game design. Now I've grown up, and it doesn't seem like Japanese game developers have.

RPGs are probably the easiest place to see what has happened to Japanese game development. On the NES we had Final Fantasy, which wasn't up to the level of the Ultima series on PC, but was pretty damned impressive for what the consoles hardware was capable of. Today, we have... Final Fantasy Umpteen, but worse than the sequelitis is that the game has not progressed in any way other than presentation - if anything they've regressed in terms of narrative and gameplay depth. When your competition is putting out Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Oblivion and Fallout, that's not going to cut it.

[Gorvi]

You're a PS3 guy - their best current gen game was a 360 exclusive.
What, Dead Rising? I played the demo (I do own a 360 after all) and a bit more at a friends house and it's really nothing special. It does rip it's save/restart structure from Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter, which is kinda cool, but otherwise it wasn't anything special. It had some cool little gimmicks, but it just wasn't for me.


As to the rest of your post, you really should give Demon's Souls and Valkyria Chronicles a shot, both do Japanese developers proud.

[Chris_D]

The UIs and general usability of JRPGs are way up on what they used to be. If you compare a game like Dragon Quest 9 to RPGs from the 8 bit and 16 bit era you can easily see the improvements. I find it difficult to go back to those older games because of lack of save points, excessive grinding, lengthy transitions, random battles, etc.

Yeah, maybe they aren't up to a western game but they do tend to be less buggy at least. Games like Fallout 3 seem to be released with a lot of bugs while I can't remember the last time I encountered a non cosmetic bug in a JRPG.

I don't feel like it's due to living in Japan, I've always bought more Japanese games. I almost never buy actual local versions of games, usually Asian or US versions of the games via Play Asia with English support.

I do like WRPGs more than JRPGs overall, with a caveat. I'm not big on the open world games. They just are too repetitive and I like having a story that is compelling enough to draw me on. I do have Oblivion on my shelf and I plan to try it one day to see if it gives more variety than previous games in the Elder Scrolls series. Also, I do want to try Fallout 3 one day since that world is quite appealing. My favourite RPG ever is Baldur's Gate 2. I loved that game so much. However, it's not like there have been a flood of games on the level of BG2 since that time. Finally, Bioware came through with Dragon Age but there was something lacking about that experience. I still liked the game a lot though.

[Chris_D]

Just checked my collection and thought I'd list the number of Japanese games I have for each console along with the total number of games. The ratio varies greatly by platform.

PS3 4/6
360 5/24
PSP 8/12
DS 22/25
PS2 22/23

[Farsight]

Just checked my collection and thought I'd list the number of Japanese games I have for each console along with the total number of games. The ratio varies greatly by platform.

So you went from 97% Japanese games to 30% in one console generation and you don't think much has changed? :)

For me:

PS2: 11/24
Xbox: 4/28
360: 1/38

So, 30% to 3% in one generation.

[Chris_D]

PSP and DS are basically this generation for me.

I purged a lot of my stuff when I came to Japan but my original Xbox (which I really liked) was very western game heavy too. So I feel like it reflects the platform. Having said that, if you did a count on time spent, the Japanese games in my 360 library would do pretty well. Tales is at about the 140 hour mark for example. Lost Odyssey and Star Ocean are both 60+. Meanwhile, I blew through Bioshock in about 10 hours and never had an urge to go back to it. GTA4 I decided to try to see what all the fuss was about but quit after 10 hours. Halo 3 campaign unfinished, stuck on a stupid flood level. Also, I have tons of $5-10 cheapo 360 games that I got from Play Asia that I've hardly put any time into.

Unplayed
Banjo Kazooie
Prince of Persia
Oblivion

Less than 2 hrs
C&C3 Red Alert
Far Cry 2
The Darkness
Halo Wars
Too Human
Viva Pinata
Silent Hill Homecoming

So, no, I don't think much has changed for me. And yes, that 360 number does need some context :).

[Wombat]

While I can agree to a certain extent, I've played some Japanese games which I considered quite innovative this generation, Demon's Souls and Valkyria Chronicles come to mind, maybe Folklore as well.

[Yeti2005]

Japan has definitely lost the majority of its importance in the gaming industry. No one can argue that.

[menage]

Most Japanese games just seem... crude. Like budget titles. And I don't mean technologically (although they're often behind in that department as well), I mean in things like basic user interface and polish.

Sorry but like someone said, their actualt less buggy than most Western games, and they do polish their games to the max. I do agree that on the animation front a lot of Japanese games look like PS2 games with extra pixels. Sometimes it can look wonky as hell. But it seems more a factor of not caring than not wanting.

Japanese games seem to still be built on the assumption that you've read the manual. They often skim over basic gameplay and what "the rules" are. When I was a kid, I had all the free time in the world to slog through and overcome rough edges in game design. Now I've grown up, and it doesn't seem like Japanese game developers have.

I don''t know which I prefer, being thrown to the wolves or having to sit through some press x to jump lame ass introduction that takes an hour before I can get on with it. That's what I liked about Demon's Souls. Here's our game, have fun dying.

Oh and I totally forgot Sega and Platinum in there at this point indeed. Freaking Bayonetta and all.

[Deadend]

Most studios in Japan are putting out games that show a lack of GETTING IT. Like the horrible systems in Lost Planet 2 and Castlevania: HD.

Inafune seems to get that there is something they are missing, but his games have been unable to get it right. Resident Evil 5 was clunky and awkward playing to me.

Platinum seems to be the only Japanese studio really putting out Current Gen games. Bayonetta was a great game and was a leap forward past Devil May Cry and God of War. Vanquish looks to be outdoing 3rd person cover-shooters quite well.

Square.. doesn't get it. FFXIII was a boring, linear game that literally had the boss of the game whisk the players off somewhere so they could level grind. The game managed to be both full of action and utterly boring, that is for both the combat system and the plot. It also managed to be constructed to feel too long AND too short at the same time, like there was a ton of content that was cut, but what was left behind was extremely repetitive.

and Final Fantasy XIV? From what I can tell it's like Square refuses to admit that WoW existed and came out in 2004. The UI looks like shit, it's got stupid controls, several 'systems' that are made to be overly complicated and convoluted.

I also wonder how much the style/workplace practices differ between game companies and those that make modern games and those that don't. As I remember reading a story on Kotaku about working in the Japanese game industry. It was full of tales of how managers just don't get how to let creativity happen and a workplace where to build morale and spirit, everyone had to yell "GOOD MORNING" upon entering the office, and there was an attendance mandatory pizza-party where everyone was given 2 slices.

[KamaItachi]

As I remember reading a story on Kotaku about working in the Japanese game industry. It was full of tales of how managers just don't get how to let creativity happen and a workplace where to build morale and spirit, everyone had to yell "GOOD MORNING" upon entering the office, and there was an attendance mandatory pizza-party where everyone was given 2 slices.

This is pretty much every Japanese office ever.

[Chris_D]

You can bet I always try and grab more than 2 slices when I can :).

[KamaItachi]

You can bet I always try and grab more than 2 slices when I can :).

Oh yeah, it's always good to get in with the ladies, since they'll happy fork over their actual food so that 1) They don't look like a 'fatty' by eating two whole slices 2)They don't look rude by not eating and then scoff the desert like a human vacuum cleaner.

[SilentScreams]

If Capcom "got it" they wouldn't put stupid time limits in their games. (see Dead Rising and sequel, or the whole Lost Planet freeze without more hot stuff thing)

The time limit is what makes Dead Rising what it is. It's as much a part of the game as the zombies. The game wouldn't work without it. If you don't like the time limit, then just accept that you don't like Dead Rising and move on.

Besides, you're more than welcome to ignore the time limit. I always do so on at least my first Dead Rising playthrough. Then you can start the next playthrough with a good idea of where everything is and a pretty advanced character.

Same with Lost Planet. The heat thing is a core mechanic of the game. Saying get rid of that is like saying "I like Mario, but I sure wish they'd get rid of jumping".

[boratika]

Funny, I don't own a single current gen Capcom game. :P

(not counting the DS) I've bought a few:

Resident Evil 5
Megaman 9
Megaman 10
Bionic Commando Rearmed
Dark Void Zero

Just not ones that really show them moving forwards :D

[menage]

Like the horrible systems in Lost Planet 2 and Castlevania: HD.


Which Castlevania is that, the 6 player one?

What I don't get about the Dead Rising or Lost Planet 2 comments. These games are very specific in their choices of how they handle systems. Sure, they're weird, but that doesn't make them bad. Just specific.

I'm glad these things exist. I'm geting tired of every game having to be the fucking same so everyone in the world will "get it". Just churn out more sequels to Halo and CoD then if we want that. People switch up their personal taste with being a good or bad game once again.

[Gorvi]

(not counting the DS) I've bought a few:

Resident Evil 5
Megaman 9
Megaman 10
Bionic Commando Rearmed
Dark Void Zero

Just not ones that really show them moving forwards :D
Ok, I could see owning all of those. In fact I'd like to, I just don't. I wasn't talking about handlhelds, at the very least I have Phoenix Wright, and now that I think about it, that Harvey Birdman game. I think that's about it, though.

Ah, crap, they published Zak & Wiki, didn't they? Ok, so I have one Capcom console game.

[boratika]

Oh yeah, I also have Zak and Wiki.

[BigJonno]

Which Castlevania is that, the 6 player one?

What I don't get about the Dead Rising or Lost Planet 2 comments. These games are very specific in their choices of how they handle systems. Sure, they're weird, but that doesn't make them bad. Just specific.

I'm glad these things exist. I'm geting tired of every game having to be the fucking same so everyone in the world will "get it". Just churn out more sequels to Halo and CoD then if we want that. People switch up their personal taste with being a good or bad game once again.

Just the process of starting a game in LP2 is a perfect example of developers being completely ignorant of modern standards of basic functionality. I'm still not sold on the "oh, it's a design decision and not just crappy controls" thing, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm going to use FFXIV as my example, because it's the epitome of the issue. I like the mechanics of the game, I like the way it feels, I like that it's not WoW. However, that doesn't blind me to the fact that there is some really, shockingly bad design in the game. There is absolutely no reason why the first monsters you encounter out of the city are too hard for you to kill and you have to search for twenty minutes to find a good grinding spot. There is no good reason why the first enemies you do fight are perfectly normal rats. Killing rats at the start of a RPG is a joke, quite literally. It's an old throwback that everyone makes fun of. Look at the DA noble origin, or even the original WoW marketing (picture: people fighting big dragon, tagline: "You'd rather be killing rats?") Would it lessen the game in any way if you weren't fighting something that could barely threaten a twelve year old with a stick, let along a hulking beastman with a big axe?

The process of attacking an enemy is something like:


Stop.
Draw weapon.
Target enemy.
Open attack menu.
Select first attack.


Compared to the vast majority of MMOs where it's:


Right click on enemy.


If that's intentional, then it's bad game design, pure and simple.

It doesn't help that so many Japanese game apologists take it personally, or just see it as a matter of taste. Most people don't like it when something they enjoy is criticised, however fairly. The immediate response I got from a friend when mentioning some of the problems with FFXIV was "Well you wouldn't it to be another WoW clone." Of course I wouldn't; I first played WoW six years ago, the last thing I want is more WoW. That doesn't mean that I don't want or expect the same level of quality and design from a game that is being released six years after it.

[menage]

Just the process of starting a game in LP2 is a perfect example of developers being completely ignorant of modern standards of basic functionality. I'm still not sold on the "oh, it's a design decision and not just crappy controls" thing, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm going to use FFXIV as my example, because it's the epitome of the issue. I like the mechanics of the game, I like the way it feels, I like that it's not WoW. However, that doesn't blind me to the fact that there is some really, shockingly bad design in the game. There is absolutely no reason why the first monsters you encounter out of the city are too hard for you to kill and you have to search for twenty minutes to find a good grinding spot. There is no good reason why the first enemies you do fight are perfectly normal rats. Killing rats at the start of a RPG is a joke, quite literally. It's an old throwback that everyone makes fun of. Look at the DA noble origin, or even the original WoW marketing (picture: people fighting big dragon, tagline: "You'd rather be killing rats?") Would it lessen the game in any way if you weren't fighting something that could barely threaten a twelve year old with a stick, let along a hulking beastman with a big axe?

The process of attacking an enemy is something like:


Stop.
Draw weapon.
Target enemy.
Open attack menu.
Select first attack.


Compared to the vast majority of MMOs where it's:


Right click on enemy.


If that's intentional, then it's bad game design, pure and simple.

It doesn't help that so many Japanese game apologists take it personally, or just see it as a matter of taste. Most people don't like it when something they enjoy is criticised, however fairly. The immediate response I got from a friend when mentioning some of the problems with FFXIV was "Well you wouldn't it to be another WoW clone." Of course I wouldn't; I first played WoW six years ago, the last thing I want is more WoW. That doesn't mean that I don't want or expect the same level of quality and design from a game that is being released six years after it.

Oh, I can agree on some of this. The menu's and flexiblity of them confounds me as well at times, and the gui is indeed off a lot of times. I can't comment on FFXIV but I heard this stuff in previews so that does seem crap (although it's probably it's console roots which are getting in the way of PC implementation, Japanese games are mostly rather crap on PC, cause in general, they don't use it to play them). This does seem a lot like the problems I had with Dragon Age on the 360 though. The freaking combat wheel and lousy AI made the battles a chore rather than a pleasure. But games like that get a free pass way to easely as well because it's fanboy Bioware territory.

But things like the time limit in DR or the health thing in LP2, that's just personal preference. I hated LP for it, even DR to some extend, but seeing as how the actual fighting in DR2 is much improved in my view, It just suddenly clicked and now I loved it.

I'm no apologist. Hell, I hated a lot of games from Japan in the past. Including LP and FFXII/XIII. But there's still a lot of games from Japan which do blow shit we do in the West out of the water (Bayonetta, SSF4, Demon's Souls, Blaz Blue, etc). But it seems when a gem hits it doesn't sell due to not being "accesible" enough for the general public. That's the main problem I see, when a good game hits. It doesn't sell (Okami?). So people only play the crap games like FFXIII (again, in my view) and call doom on the whole industry.

[Adam Blue]

Most studios in Japan are putting out games that show a lack of GETTING IT. Like the horrible systems in Lost Planet 2 and Castlevania: HD.

Inafune seems to get that there is something they are missing, but his games have been unable to get it right. Resident Evil 5 was clunky and awkward playing to me.

While I didn't like RE5, these games are exceptional. They have things that no other games do, which is difficulty and a system you need to learn specifically for a game. And it's Japanese. Luckily, you're in the minority with this, as these games are heavily regarded as being good.

You lost the point however; Capcom is a Japanese developer that keeps moving forward while holding on to what makes Japanese developed games unique.

[Adam Blue]

The process of attacking an enemy is something like:


Stop.
Draw weapon.
Target enemy.
Open attack menu.
Select first attack.


Compared to the vast majority of MMOs where it's:


Right click on enemy.



I don't like RPG's, but I strongly disagree with this point of being bad game design. It's bad design if no one wants to play it, and we know this isn't true. A standard JRPG is a story driven game with tons of downtime. A general MMO is a grind-fest that's all about repetition.

Neither is bad game design. I think it is very wrong to call it such. They are different types of games. Some of you did this with LP2, DR, etc. and don't seem to differentiate between a dislike and what's incorrect. Like me having a strong dislike for RPG's/MMO's. You won't hear me bash them because I understand they have their place.

[menage]

I don't think people wanting to play it makes it a good/well designed game by default.
If it's designed wel enough for people to cope with doesn't mean it can't be done beter.

I got the point as how convoluted the system in FFIV just fine, seems elaborate for such a simple action. That doesn't mean Japanese games in general are all badly designed though.

[BigJonno]

I don't like RPG's, but I strongly disagree with this point of being bad game design. It's bad design if no one wants to play it, and we know this isn't true. A standard JRPG is a story driven game with tons of downtime. A general MMO is a grind-fest that's all about repetition.

Neither is bad game design. I think it is very wrong to call it such. They are different types of games. Some of you did this with LP2, DR, etc. and don't seem to differentiate between a dislike and what's incorrect. Like me having a strong dislike for RPG's/MMO's. You won't hear me bash them because I understand they have their place.

I'm talking about Final Fantasy XIV, which is a MMO and comparing it to all the other MMOs which it is competing with. There is no good reason for the simple act of attacking an enemy to be so complex. It adds nothing to the game. In fact, it's actually detrimental as mobs can easily wander off before you attack, forcing you have to run after them. It's exacerbated by your health only regenerating while your weapon is sheathed (which requires a button pressing and waiting for your character to stop and perform the animation.)

It's nothing to do with personal taste or genre differences. I'm criticising a game that I like in a genre that I love. I'm also actively looking for something with a different feel to most of the genre as certain elements have become stale for me.

Pointless complexity is always bad game design.

[Adam Blue]

I'm talking about Final Fantasy XIV, which is a MMO and comparing it to all the other MMOs which it is competing with. There is no good reason for the simple act of attacking an enemy to be so complex. It adds nothing to the game. In fact, it's actually detrimental as mobs can easily wander off before you attack, forcing you have to run after them. It's exacerbated by your health only regenerating while your weapon is sheathed (which requires a button pressing and waiting for your character to stop and perform the animation.)

It's nothing to do with personal taste or genre differences. I'm criticising a game that I like in a genre that I love. I'm also actively looking for something with a different feel to most of the genre as certain elements have become stale for me.

Pointless complexity is always bad game design.

Ah ok, my bad. I had no idea there was a FF that was just like (or supposed to be like) WoW.

[BigJonno]

I'm no apologist. Hell, I hated a lot of games from Japan in the past. Including LP and FFXII/XIII. But there's still a lot of games from Japan which do blow shit we do in the West out of the water (Bayonetta, SSF4, Demon's Souls, Blaz Blue, etc). But it seems when a gem hits it doesn't sell due to not being "accesible" enough for the general public. That's the main problem I see, when a good game hits. It doesn't sell (Okami?). So people only play the crap games like FFXIII (again, in my view) and call doom on the whole industry.

I think that accessibility thing is the crux of the issue. I'm willing to put effort into things to get the most enjoyment out of them; hell, I play pen 'n' paper RPGs that require reading a 300-page hardcover book from cover to cover before I can even think about running them. However I don't think that any level of quality puts a game above criticism for being obtuse and generally user-unfriendly.

I'm not sure how much that will help sales though. Okami should have sold bucketloads; it's by far the best example of that kind of action-adventurey thing and was released on a massively popular console that didn't have Zelda games. I put that one down to the general Zeldaishness of the game not being pushed enough. I think most people saw it as "that weird Japanese wolf painting game."

EDIT:

Ah ok, my bad. I had no idea there was a FF that was just like WoW.

Really? You really do hate MMOs/RPGs, don't you? The first FF MMO actually pre-dates WoW.

[Adam Blue]

Really? You really do hate MMOs/RPGs, don't you? The first FF MMO actually pre-dates WoW.

I'm not sure how much that will help sales though. Okami should have sold bucketloads; it's by far the best example of that kind of action-adventurey thing and was released on a massively popular console that didn't have Zelda games. I put that one down to the general Zeldaishness of the game not being pushed enough. I think most people saw it as "that weird Japanese wolf painting game."

I started back on SNES with JRPG's. The way they put the focus on actual gameplay is not something I want in a game. It's more about talking to people and unfolding a story. I will play games like Zelda because of the emphasis of real-time action. Games like WoW, are too focused on numbers rather than skill with a controller. I'm just into realtime combat.

I do turned based strategy-games, but only because they are faster paced than a turn based RPG.

You're right about Okami though.

[BigJonno]

I started back on SNES with JRPG's. The way they put the focus on actual gameplay is not something I want in a game. It's more about talking to people and unfolding a story. I will play games like Zelda because of the emphasis of real-time action. Games like WoW, are too focused on numbers rather than skill with a controller. I'm just into realtime combat.

I do turned based strategy-games, but only because they are faster paced than a turn based RPG.

You're right about Okami though.

As much as I love RPGs, I'll take real-time, direct-control combat over turn-based or point and click gameplay any day. To me, RPGs (of any kind; tabletop, LARP or the electronic variety) are about developing a character and then interacting with a world through that lens. I will never understand the obsession with virtual dice-rolling or stats and levels being an end rather than a means.

[Deadend]

I started back on SNES with JRPG's. The way they put the focus on actual gameplay is not something I want in a game. It's more about talking to people and unfolding a story. I will play games like Zelda because of the emphasis of real-time action. Games like WoW, are too focused on numbers rather than skill with a controller. I'm just into realtime combat.

I do turned based strategy-games, but only because they are faster paced than a turn based RPG.

You're right about Okami though.

WoW is pretty heavily skill based.. at least at the higher end of things, and the skill is knowing what move at the right time and the right time-window can get down to half seconds or so. The auto-swing stuff is kind of fine, as otherwise I'd be mashing attack as fast as I could for no good reason.

You have some valid points, but the things that FFXIV does seem to be more about being 'different' than doing something better.
As have you gone through and signed up for the game? Their beta signup is weird and strange and their client downloader insists on having the mouse turn into a hand and puts an emphasis on presentation, except there is mouselag. It also needs to have Admin access yet it doesn't auto-ask for it on startup, which is sloppy.
The game just seems to have been built by utterly ignoring what the "western" game studios are doing, and the western game design (at least for MMOs) wraps all the way around the world to Russia, South Korea and China.

[TrackZero]

Capcom have been one of the most forward thinking devs in Japan for a long time, they've been getting their feelers out to start Western style teams for a while now and I can see them reaping the reward just around the time a lot of the other big hitters start to see it all go wrong.

This isn't just a video game thing though, Japan has always been incredibly introverted about all of their industries, but in this day and age, you can't survive in a vaccum.

This ^. Capcom has always seemed to know how to target more of an international audience and rarely do I play a game of theirs I don't enjoy on some level.

[menage]

However I don't think that any level of quality puts a game above criticism for being obtuse and generally user-unfriendly.

I general I agree, then there's exceptions like Demon's Souls.

I'm not sure how much that will help sales though. Okami should have sold bucketloads; it's by far the best example of that kind of action-adventurey thing and was released on a massively popular console that didn't have Zelda games. I put that one down to the general Zeldaishness of the game not being pushed enough. I think most people saw it as "that weird Japanese wolf painting game."

Just a theory, but I don't think the Western public isn't as open minded as it's claiming to be. Starting with theme, boxart with ending online mp and such being a must these days it's hard for even a Western game to be succesfull.

Let alone an approach the "new generation" of hardcore gamers can't get into right away. It's not just good controls, also a fact that Japanese games get a way bit longer in general to get going.

Games Japanese make used to fair a whole lot better with 12 year old kids in the snes days. And games like Pokemon or Mario still appeal to that group. Japan has found that audience through the DS. And stuff like Brain Training and Layton even reach audiences normal games wouldn'r reach.

The game just seems to have been built by utterly ignoring what the "western" game studios are doing, and the western game design (at least for MMOs) wraps all the way around the world to Russia, South Korea and China.

In a recent interview they actually told that they did look at WoW and listened to user feedback. They had a pure turn based system at first installed but that wasn't enough for players so they changed it towards being more of an active time battle. They do listen, maybe just not enough or they just have problems with the concept. Or maybe they do want to be different for the heck of it.

They still want it to succeed in Japan as well In guess. Which creates odd hybrids at times. It's not just the creators, but the huge difference in what both markets want as well. At least form something with the letters FF attached.

[Squidbot]

If Capcom "got it" they wouldn't put stupid time limits in their games. (see Dead Rising and sequel, or the whole Lost Planet freeze without more hot stuff thing)

So much this.

I hate being on a clock in games.

[Ultima Thulian]

Nothing under the sun is truly new.

[Xydarc]

I love how WRPG apologists toss out Oblivion and Fallout as shining examples of why West > East when both were buggy messes at launch. At least FF XIII didn't lock up my PS3 half a dozen times in an hour of play. I also forget the last Japanese-developed game where you had to load a dozen mods just to fix the core game.

I think it would be best to admin that both Western and Eastern developers have their flaws and strengths; neither is really superior to the other, IMO. I do enjoy their games, though.

[SilentScreams]

The difference is that most JRPGs don't come out on the PC. It's much easier to make a bug free game for a console than it is for a PC.

In terms of fun and immersion, WRPGs are definitely top of the pile IMO.

[Ondo]

Platinum seems to be the only Japanese studio really putting out Current Gen games. Bayonetta was a great game and was a leap forward past Devil May Cry and God of War. Vanquish looks to be outdoing 3rd person cover-shooters quite well.
And note that Platinum is primarily ex-Capcom people. If Capcom "got it", they would never have dissolved Clover Studio.

[MagGnome]

Have you not been paying attention to the Western game industry? 90+% of blockbuster releases are sequels. More than half of them are shooters.

This was my first thought as well. Most of the studios in the US, Canada, and Western Europe are just as unimaginative as many of the studios in Japan. There's a screenshot floating around of three different high profile FPS games that were shown off at E3, and if they weren't labeled you would be hard pressed to tell them apart.

I'd rather not see Japanese studios make more "Western"-style games. That gets us crap like that Gears of War clone. BORING!

[muddi900]

I love how WRPG apologists toss out Oblivion and Fallout as shining examples of why West > East when both were buggy messes at launch. At least FF XIII didn't lock up my PS3 half a dozen times in an hour of play. I also forget the last Japanese-developed game where you had to load a dozen mods just to fix the core game.

I think it would be best to admin that both Western and Eastern developers have their flaws and strengths; neither is really superior to the other, IMO. I do enjoy their games, though.

Yet none of them rely on game design that is 20 years old. Having 70 randomized encounters between point A to point B is a bug, not feature. That's true of almost all JRPGs. 40 hour play times are due to 35 hours being lost in lame random encounters.

But,I agree with your point. The fact is, none of the major American developers have the balls to make something like Dead Rising, or New Super Mario Bros.

[Adam Blue]

That gets us crap like that Gears of War clone. BORING!

Vanquish is actually a lot of fun, and while not a fan of Gears, it is awesome.

[Farsight]

I love how WRPG apologists toss out Oblivion and Fallout as shining examples of why West > East when both were buggy messes at launch. At least FF XIII didn't lock up my PS3 half a dozen times in an hour of play.

When you're not trying to do anything special, it's much easier to avoid bugs. CG cutscenes don't crash. :)

I only played them on the 360, but I found both Oblivion and Fallout 3 to be quite stable. I did have F3 crash a few times, but it never became frustrating, in part because of how many hours I played between each and in part because of how much I enjoyed those hours. If a few bugs (and only a few) are the cost of innovation, I'll gladly pay it.

I'd rather not see Japanese studios make more "Western"-style games. That gets us crap like that Gears of War clone. BORING!

This kind of misses the point. Nobody's suggesting the Japanese change the subject matter of their games. This is about upgrading the basic technical and design levels of their games, that seem stuck in the 80s. Intuitive control schemes, easing the player into the game, user-friendly menus, etc.

Imagine if Japanese movies were known for not naming their characters, not establishing times or locations of scenes, and cutting away during important moments. Fixing those fundamental errors wouldn't make their films carbon copies of Micheal Bay movies; it would just make them watchable.

[menage]

Having 70 randomized encounters between point A to point B is a bug, not feature. That's true of almost all JRPGs. 40 hour play times are due to 35 hours being lost in lame random encounters.

Well, I get that you don't like it, but for some of us, those 35 hours is why we play the game. Levelling, grinding, customizing the wins of those battles. We're not doing it to get to B alone. Cause what's at B, a pretty picture, a bit of story and of course, more battles.

I do concede that random encounters are outdated and annoying. But a lot of JRPG let you already see those in advance now, so then it can become tactical. In fact, almost all but my favorite, Lost Odyssey I think this gen.

I think that's progress. I could list a few more examples as well.

[menage]

I love how WRPG apologists toss out Oblivion and Fallout as shining examples of why West > East when both were buggy messes at launch. At least FF XIII didn't lock up my PS3 half a dozen times in an hour of play. I also forget the last Japanese-developed game where you had to load a dozen mods just to fix the core game.

Fallout 3 and Oblivion were fine games without mods, some people are just never satisfied:D

oops on the doublepost but it won't delete.

[Widgetcraft]

I think there needs to be a line drawn, in this discussion, between two elements: Bad game design typical of Japanese games, and emphasis on things that we don't like. I do think that the Japanese development community has fallen behind Western developers in terms of game design, some things just don't work the way they should in many/most Japanese games, be it jumping mechanics, menu navigation, level design and what-have-you. This is different from the emphasis that Square-Enix puts on cut-scenes, and I don't believe that is where this discussion needs to go, as it is more of a matter of taste.

To me, it seems that where Western game design has made significant strides on making gameplay more flowing in the past two generations, Japanese developers are still tweaking the mechanics they were using in the PS1/N64 days. The best example that I can think of to demonstrate this is to compare Arkham Asylum and The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess. Both are action-adventure games with similar structure and concepts. The main emphasis of these games can be broken down very simply: You walk into a room, and you solve a puzzle to proceed to the next room, sometimes you fight enemies. However, if you put these two games side by side, you would have a hard time believing that they came out in the same decade, and not just because of the graphics.

Take a look at the combat, for starters. With Batman, you are constantly flowing from enemy to enemy, countering, attacking, throwing... it is a very fluid, and natural system, that even novice gamers can enjoy. You are often fighting a half-dozen enemies at once. With Zelda there has been very little progress made on the combat mechanics since Ocarina of Time; they're almost identical. There are usually two enemies, you lock on to one, this brings up your shield, and you wait for an opening to use the same three button slash combo that you've used since 1998. They added some "special attacks" (using a rather obtuse input system, as I recall), but your primary method of killing enemies still relies on a rigid 1-2-3 slash combo. Until Arkham Asylum came out, I thought that this was just the reality of action-adventure games, that there wasn't enough time and resources to put into one game to have both good puzzles and a solid combat system, but that is simply not true.

Take a look at the mechanic for dodging. In Arkham Asylum, you can roll and jump in pretty much any direction, and it seems very dynamic. Now take a look at Twilight Princess, where they are still using the same roll mechanic that they had in Ocarina of Time; it's very rigid, and if I remember correctly, it can't even go in diagonals. It's actually hard to explain beyond simply stating that one feels natural, and one feels artificial. Let's take a look at some gameplay videos of the two:

2nPrA5xrfQs

hkKvAgS16I

I tried finding a better video to represent Twilight Princess, but no body seems to want to highlight the combat with a video (for obvious reasons) and really... this is about it, anyway.

EDIT: The TP video doesn't want to load when I try to embed it, go here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hkKvAgS16I&feature=related) to see it.

[muddi900]

Well, I get that you don't like it, but for some of us, those 35 hours is why we play the game. Levelling, grinding, customizing the wins of those battles. We're not doing it to get to B alone. Cause what's at B, a pretty picture, a bit of story and of course, more battles.

I do concede that random encounters are outdated and annoying. But a lot of JRPG let you already see those in advance now, so then it can become tactical. In fact, almost all but my favorite, Lost Odyssey I think this gen.

I think that's progress. I could list a few more examples as well.

See random encounters wouldn't be so bad, pointless grind is kind of fun in Arpgs, if the combat wasn't turn-based. I have no problem with turn-based combat either, but it takes a lot of time, and it is only fun if its hard. Not only are random encounters easy, hence not fun, but also rather pointless. That hour you wasted trying to get to the next quest did not advance you in the game whatsoever. So thats that.

I think somebody brought up RE 5, which is the classic example of capcom not getting it. It was confused if it was gears of war or RE3. I wasn't surprised when they announced an american developer for Dead Rising 2, but I sure was pissed. Japanese developers DO NOT need to adopt american standards. They need to evolve on their own terms. Then we get games like NSMB, MGS3 and Demon's Soul.

EDIT: and to all those pussies thatare whining about gime limits; go play your halos and your cods with its pussy ass respec. I am not entirely serious.

[BigJonno]

I think there needs to be a line drawn, in this discussion, between two elements: Bad game design typical of Japanese games, and emphasis on things that we don't like. I do think that the Japanese development community has fallen behind Western developers in terms of game design, some things just don't work the way they should in many/most Japanese games, be it jumping mechanics, menu navigation, level design and what-have-you. This is different from the emphasis that Square-Enix puts on cut-scenes, and I don't believe that is where this discussion needs to go, as it is more of a matter of taste.

Come on guys, Heretic is being the voice of reason. I know it's a lot to wrap your head round, but listen to the man. :D

[Farsight]

I wasn't surprised when they announced an american developer for Dead Rising 2, but I sure was pissed. Japanese developers DO NOT need to adopt american standards.

From what I've seen and read, DR2 is still a Japanese-designed game, it just had a foreign team implementing that design. I mean, five minutes with Case Zero should prove to anyone that DR2 hasn't lost the unique feel of DR1, it's just been cleaned up a lot in terms of the mechanics. We'll see for sure in a few weeks, but right now it looks like Capcom found the best of both worlds.

(I guarantee if a western team had implemented RE5, you'd be able to move while aiming!)

((and the African female lead would not have had a spearchucker costume!)) :)

[muddi900]

From what I've seen and read, DR2 is still a Japanese-designed game, it just had a foreign team implementing that design. I mean, five minutes with Case Zero should prove to anyone that DR2 hasn't lost the unique feel of DR1, it's just been cleaned up a lot in terms of the mechanics. We'll see for sure in a few weeks, but right now it looks like Capcom found the best of both worlds.

(I guarantee if a western team had implemented RE5, you'd be able to move while aiming!)

((and the African female lead would not have had a spearchucker costume!)) :)

Yes, I should have mentioned that my fears about DR2 were alleviated.

And yes, RE 5 would've had run-&-shoot controls if an american developer had created it. It also would have been made in Unreal Engine 3, would have had a cover shoot system, and all the textures for zombies would have resembled excrement. In short, it would have been a Gears of War with zombies. Who gives a fuck about that.

The problem with the game was never its japanese-ness but its americanness.

[menage]

Dunno, I thought Dead Space was a better Resident Evil than Resident Evil 5.

I do like how Japanese games look though, even when it's scary or depressing they still manage to put some color into it.

I think .... wall of text

I agree on Zelda having not changed much in any regard but graphic style or theme the last dozens of times. It's why I lot interest in it completely. But, and it's a pretty big but. Zelda doesn't have to change, the fans would go nuts if it did. And reviews really don't help the matter either. Every Zelda is received as some next coming which cannot be faulted. I wouldn't change if everybody wanted me to stay the same and praise me for it.

Batman had a nice system, but it also had way more emphasis on the combat. Combat in Zelda was always more of a diversion. If were talking good combat I would say Bayonetta whoops it ass. Which is Japanese yet again.

[Widgetcraft]

I wasn't talking about theme or graphics, I'm fine with that, but the combat system either needs to be good or it needs to go away. There is no excuse for it to remain in the state that it is in, when Batman proves that a game can have both an excellent combat system, and puzzles that rival or exceed Zelda's. How many recycled block puzzles were there in Arkham Asylum? Even it's hidden collectibles one-upped Zelda with the riddles. Arkham Asylum was simply a better Zelda game than any other 3D Zelda game, and that's going to be a problem for Nintendo moving forward as more devs begin to ape Arkham Asylum (and I'm sure we'll start seeing that after Arkham City).

Many similar situations are popping up in other genres. The only genre that Japan still dominates is the fighting genre, where the best Western competitor has been Mortal Kombat. But that genre is largely niche outside of Street Fighter in the West, these days anyway.

Don't take my criticism as a sign that I don't still enjoy Japanese games, because I do (my next purchase is going to be Recettear (http://store.steampowered.com/app/70400/)), but I do think they need to wake up and start modernizing if they want to remain competitive.

[menage]

I wasn't talking about theme or graphics, I'm fine with that, but the combat system either needs to be good or it needs to go away. There is no excuse for it to remain in the state that it is in, when Batman proves that a game can have both an excellent combat system, and puzzles that rival or exceed Zelda's. How many recycled block puzzles were there in Arkham Asylum? Even it's hidden collectibles one-upped Zelda with the riddles. Arkham Asylum was simply a better Zelda game than any other 3D Zelda game, and that's going to be a problem for Nintendo moving forward as more devs begin to ape Arkham Asylum (and I'm sure we'll start seeing that after Arkham City).


Like I said, I'm really not sure if Zelda has to change to remain succesful. It's rabbid fanbase combined with raving reviews from the press will keep it like it is.

I'm not even sure if Batman is like Zelda that much, Metroid or Castlevania would be a a better comparisons. And frankly Batman's puzzles never stomped me one bit, I didn't think much of them. It's focus was way more on action and exploration. In Zelda a single puzzle could stomp me for hours sometimes.

[Widgetcraft]

Like I said, I'm really not sure if Zelda has to change to remain succesful. It's rabbid fanbase combined with raving reviews from the press will keep it like it is.

I'm not even sure if Batman is like Zelda that much, Metroid or Castlevania would be a a better comparisons. And frankly Batman's puzzles never stomped me one bit, I didn't think much of them. It's focus was way more on action and exploration. In Zelda a single puzzle could stomp me for hours sometimes.

The reason that it is more like Zelda is because of the lack of a platforming element. Metroidvanias take the structure of an action adventure game and apply it to a platformer. There is no platforming in Arkham Asylum. Other than the lack of a town or two, I don't see how it's that much different than Zelda... you know, other than being better in virtually every way.

[SilentScreams]

I never really understood the hate for RE5.

RE4 was universally praised. It's probably one of my favourite games of all time. RE5 seemed like just more of the same, with co-op.

[menage]

Metroid Prime didn't really have much of a platform element either (at least a lot less tahn say Super Metroid), but I was talking more about the structure instead of just the combat/gameplay. I would argue it' s the shift form 2D to 3D that removes the platform element altogether in newer versions of said franchises. The new Castlevania doesn't seem build on platforming either. But more on swinging like Batman.

Zelda has very specific dungeons with a beginning and end, that's where the puzzling and action is. The overworld is mainly getting there or for extra fluff, but you never return to the dungeons once your done with em.

[BigJonno]

I will say that I don't quite see the Batman/Zelda similarities. Yeah, you had a bunch of gadgets that you used to progress, but there wasn't much in the way of what I'd call puzzles. You had to look for what gadget to use, but there wasn't much thought involved in how you used them. When I think of Zelda-style games, I think of Okami and Darksiders.

[muddi900]

I never really understood the hate for RE5.

RE4 was universally praised. It's probably one of my favourite games of all time. RE5 seemed like just more of the same, with co-op.

RE5 felt like RE4, pandering to dude-brahs. Also, Co-op is great, if you are playing Co-op, not SP. I imagine the game to be quite fun with a friend. Sadly none of friends are gamers. :(

And I actually do see AA/Zelda similarities now that Heretic has pointed them out. Arkham Asylum was zelda with a different level-design philosophy. Its the same Linear action adventure game type, otherwise.

I do wish that games come with commentary like Portal. You see things differently once the process is explained to you.

[Farsight]

As a further example of Capcom "getting it", Dead Rising: Case Zero is a huge hit. It's an innovative idea to essentially release standalone DLC for a game before it comes out, functioning as a Prologue, a demo and an event in its own right. At $5, it's an incredible value and a great marketing tool for the full game - traditional demos don't garner near this much attention or positive press.

I suspect Case Zero is going to start a major new way of doing things, and it's a Japanese company making the best use of Live to reach customers so far.

[MagGnome]

As a further example of Capcom "getting it", Dead Rising: Case Zero is a huge hit. It's an innovative idea to essentially release standalone DLC for a game before it comes out, functioning as a Prologue, a demo and an event in its own right. At $5, it's an incredible value and a great marketing tool for the full game - traditional demos don't garner near this much attention or positive press.

I suspect Case Zero is going to start a major new way of doing things, and it's a Japanese company making the best use of Live to reach customers so far.

How much are they paying you again? ;)

[Chris_D]

How much are they paying you again? ;)

-$5 by the sounds of it.

[Farsight]

-$5 by the sounds of it.

I was just about to post that! :)

Whatever they're paying me, they're getting much more value now than when I was railing against Resident Evil 5! :)