The state of PC Gaming

[iHap]

Simple question, in your opinion what is the state of PC Gaming? From the perspective of the CoG community I'm curious what we all think about this. What do you think about it now, where it's headed. Why do you buy PC Games, or why do you buy PC Games over Console games if they are cross-platform?

I'd like to know what this community sees in PC Gaming, and their opinions on all related topics about this.

[Panthera]

From my perspective, PC games are what scratch my itch at the moment for variety and depth, and Steam has been dispensing them intravenously.

[BigJonno]

I answer this question with a link. (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/21/gamescom-10-report-day-3/) The state of PC gaming is awesome!

I've not been able to play on my consoles for a couple of months now and it's not been a big deal. More of the games that I want to play are released on PC (being a RPG and MMORPG guy, mainly) and the various DD services provide cheap, plentiful and instant games of all kinds.

[The Continental]

As a console kid who got hooked on PC games in 6th grade during the Doom 2/Warcraft 2/C&C era, and managed to skip every console up until the original Xbox, I'm sad to say I've all but hung up my PC gaming spurs and even went so far as to buy a Mac.

There have been some great games over the last couple years or so (Relic, Valve, etc.) but my once beloved platform has been marginalized to the realm of crappy ports as so many of the developers whose games I've grown up playing have started developing with the consoles as their lead SKUs. Were it not for the sucess of WoW as the gold standard on which to base an argument for the viability of the industry, I think many publishers would overlook it entirely at this point. Retailers like Gamestop certainly do.

I'll always play PC games, as there will always be good games to play on the platform, but more and more, I think those will be games like Torchlight or the various European RTS & turn based titles that don't get much press stateside. But my days as a PC enthusiast who builds a gaming rig for some much anticipated title are long over. I'll certainly fire up Steam for the latest and greatest that Valve has to offer, but other than their games, I'll be doing my gaming on consoles.

[Dukefrukem]

This is a complex question and I expect to answer it in depth on tonight's IM podcast. I consider to myself to be a heavy heavy PC user... so this came as a shock to me.

But to give you a preview;

My top 5 games that I absolutely love in 2010; (Haven't put Starcraft 2 on the list yet because I haven't played it enough)

5. Bayonetta (PS3)
4. Darksiders (PS3)
3. Heavy Rain (PS3)
2. GoW3 (PS3)
1. Left 4 Dead 2 (PC)


versus

My Top 5 Games That I am Highly anticipating.

5. Infamous 2
4. GT5
3. Killzone 3
2. Uncharted 3
1. HL3


Only 1 on each list is PC. :-/

[DiBiddilyBop]

If anything, I'd say PC gaming is on the rise. I've heard the doom and gloom predictions about PC gaming for decades but as long as there are PCs, there will be games on those PCs. Furthermore, I think Steam has been the greatest thing in the history of ever for PC gamers, and will continue to push the platform in the coming years. Sure, you can download games onto your console now, but with terabyte drives dipping under the $100 mark and even close to $50, the PC is much better equipped to handle digital distribution than consoles.

I suppose the next logical step would be game streaming which consoles could pick back up for and have an edge over PCs, but without massive high-speed infrastructure improvements (at least in the US), that seems like it's going to be a long way off.

Now excuse me while I go back to StarCraft 2 and Elemental...

[BigJonno]

This is a complex question and I expect to answer it in depth on tonight's IM podcast. I consider to myself to be a heavy heavy PC user... so this came as a shock to me.

But to give you a preview;

My top 5 games that I absolutely love in 2010; (Haven't put Starcraft 2 on the list yet because I haven't played it enough)

5. Bayonetta (PS3)
4. Darksiders (PS3)
3. Heavy Rain (PS3)
2. GoW3 (PS3)
1. Left 4 Dead 2 (PC)


versus

My Top 5 Games That I am Highly anticipating.

5. Infamous 2
4. GT5
3. Killzone 3
2. Uncharted 3
1. HL3


Only 1 on each list is PC. :-/

It says a lot that half the titles you list fit into the oh-so-vague "action adventure" genre, which is very strong on consoles. Sony, in particular, have a solid lock on that kind of thing.

[Troggles]

I think PC gaming had some hard times the last couple of years, but is back on the rise. Many of my console only friends have begun building their own rigs, mostly thanks to Steam having the games they want for cheap. Also, anytime Blizzard releases a new game I think PC gaming is on the rise since everyone is playing whatever game that is, so that may skew my view.

[Dukefrukem]

It says a lot that half the titles you list fit into the oh-so-vague "action adventure" genre, which is very strong on consoles. Sony, in particular, have a solid lock on that kind of thing.

Put it this way, I had more fun playing Darksiders on console than any other PC exclusive game released this year. The game is far from perfect and it borrows from tons of other games, but that doesn't stop it from being a fun play.

Bayonetta was just batshitcrazy....

God of War 3 was highly anticipated, and rightfully so.

And Heavy Rain was introducing new elements into storying telling.

The only reason I put L4D2 on this list (it was released in 09) is because they are still adding to it and I am still playing it hard...

[Kelegacy]

I used to be a heavy PC gamer, and I really need to upgrade my PC so I can get into it again. But I keep putting it off. Why? Mostly because I don't see a lot that makes me want to get back into it. Barring some games like Witcher, there isn't a whole lot that grabs me. RPGs used to be a huge genre on the PC and I'd much rather play one on the PC than on a console...but these days 9/10 RPGs seem to be MMOs and I hate them. I'm also not an RTS guy, so that leaves me without a lot to want to play.

I haven't been a big PC gamer since like 2005 or so...because my PC became outdated and I moved onto the 360 instead. So I've missed quite a lot of games and I'd have a lot of catching up to do when I do upgrade, but I can't think of a long list of must-plays off the top of my head, at least ones I haven't already played on the consoles.

[jpublic]

I prefer to game on my PC. Everything about it, from physical comfort level, to preferring PC control methods (when properly designed) to the fact that with my now-8-month-old i7 everything just looks better. I prefer that the PC has in general made the jump to pure DD. I prefer the fact that when I play on my PC, I can multitask.

I was musing on the current state of gaming on the PC just this morning, and I came to the (happy) conclusion that we're currently in an upswing moment in PC gaming. I think there's a lot contributing to that, but the only thing that really matters to me is that a lot of hot titles I want I can get (or will be able to get) on my preferred platform.

I find Duke's lists interesting, because my lists would probably show the opposite. DS/PSP aside, the only games on my consoles in the past while I have really been keen on getting were FFXIII, RDR, and Alan Wake. Everything else I've picked up for them (3D Dot, Heavy Rain, a few others) have been whim purchases that I ended up regretting for the most part. OTOH, for the PC, I had games like Alpha Protocol, Assassin's Creed 2, PoP, Batman, KB: Armored Princess, Stalker:CoP, Torchlight, Elemental (heh).

Going into the future, I've got Fallout: NV, Civ 5, Darksiders, and whatever else interesting appears on Steam that hasn't yet. There's only a few on the consoles I really care about like Metroid: OM (for my collection), Spiderman (tentatively), Epic Mickey, umm....hmm. I can't think of many more.

[Vandabo]

Thanks to Steam I now buy more PC games than ever, but many of the games I really want to play are on consoles. With very few exceptions I would rather play a game on the PC if there is the option, but the often terrible ports and delayed releases really cause problems with that approach.

Multiplayer games especially I'd rather have on the PC, as I've never played a console game online that wouldn't have worked better on a PC. I like having more options, customization and the better controls that the PC has. Nothing frustrates me more than when I can't customize a game properly because it is a poorly designed port of a console game. This happens a lot because I don't use the standard inefficient WASD control scheme, so I rebind my keys on every single game. There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to bind any key (or mouse button) to any action except for laziness by the developers.

Anyway, enough ranting. There are PC games coming out now that are better than ever, but there is also a clear bias towards the console in the design of most major releases. I much prefer a system like Steam for both content delivery and multiplayer gaming, vs. the current console systems. If every game on the consoles were available with decent ports to the PC, I would only play Rock Band on my 360.

[BigJonno]

One thing I have noticed is a number of console-gaming friends showing an interest in PC gaming because of Steam deals. One of my uni friends has just got a pretty decent laptop and he can't believe how cheaply he can pick up games. I've got a feeling he's going to blow the next instalment of his student loan on PC games.

[Dukefrukem]

I find Duke's lists interesting, because my lists would probably show the opposite. DS/PSP aside, the only games on my consoles in the past while I have really been keen on getting were FFXIII, RDR, and Alan Wake. Everything else I've picked up for them (3D Dot, Heavy Rain, a few others) have been whim purchases that I ended up regretting for the most part. OTOH, for the PC, I had games like Alpha Protocol, Assassin's Creed 2, PoP, Batman, KB: Armored Princess, Stalker:CoP, Torchlight, Elemental (heh).

Going into the future, I've got Fallout: NV, Civ 5, Darksiders, and whatever else interesting appears on Steam that hasn't yet. There's only a few on the consoles I really care about like Metroid: OM (for my collection), Spiderman (tentatively), Epic Mickey, umm....hmm. I can't think of many more.

Not taking away from some of the games you mentioned, but the gray area I didn't want to get into is; I base the "top games of the year" based on how long I play them. If I play them a shit-ton, that qualifies as a great title that I need to list ABOVE a game I enjoyed but didn't play a lot. (steam and xfire help me determine this based on total time played) For example, Alan Wake, I did love, but I sold it the day after I beat it. I'll never play it again in my life (unless it comes to PC and to steam for cheap) but I would never put it on my top 5 of the year. Not after 1 completion.

[Ravenlock]

Well, as the Immortal Machines host my answer's probably a touch predictable, but I think the PC is fucking awesome right now. It's the bee's knees. It's the cat's pajamas.

I've been PC gaming consistently since 1984 (King's Quest 4 Life!) and this is probably the best time I've ever had. There's so much good stuff I can't keep up - not even close. And on top of getting better-looking (and IMO often better-playing) versions of 80% of the stuff I care about on consoles [notable exception: Ubisoft's f'd-in-the-a DRM], there's a ton of PC-exclusive and indie stuff to dive into.

Again, indie and freeware are kind of my beat on the site, so that's no surprise, but seriously, just in the last year or so we've had stuff like VVVVVV, Flotilla, Beat Hazard, Frozen Synapse, Plain Sight, Gratuitous Space Battles, Torchlight... really awesome, low-cost stuff that developers can make on a budget, sell on a budget, and keep me tremendously happy with.

Not to mention the blossoming retro scene, between GOG keeping me in cheap classics and stuff like Secret of Monkey Island getting high-class remakes.

It's fucking great. I'm so spoiled for choice I hardly know what to do next. And Steam so regularly sells the big-budget stuff at half off or less, that I'm not going broke keeping up with it either.

I like my 360, but it's my back-up system, not my go-to. I use it for media more than I do for gaming. And I can say that for almost everything on the 360, I'd rather play it on the PC if a good version exists there.

[violent]

95% of my gaming is on the pc. I have a back catalogue of games so good that the console title that grabs my interest is a rarity.

[roboninja]

Never been better, IMO.

[jpublic]

Not taking away from some of the games you mentioned, but the gray area I didn't want to get into is; I base the "top games of the year" based on how long I play them. If I play them a shit-ton, that qualifies as a great title that I need to list ABOVE a game I enjoyed but didn't play a lot. (steam and xfire help me determine this based on total time played) For example, Alan Wake, I did love, but I sold it the day after I beat it. I'll never play it again in my life (unless it comes to PC and to steam for cheap) but I would never put it on my top 5 of the year. Not after 1 completion.

Fair enough. I disagree, but fair enough.

[Smoof]

PC gaming for me isn't necessarily PC games or PC exclusive games. Don't get me wrong, I love games that are unapologetically PC games like say STALKER or Gratuitous Space Battles, but it isn't always about those. The PC is my platform of choice simply because I find the experience of playing on a PC much, much more immersive than gaming on a console. When I play a game on my 360, I feel like I'm doing just that, playing a game. Switching over to the PC side of things, I feel much more like I'm in the game and I really get sucked into them in a way I don't on a console. I'm not sure if there's any one single factor to this, but I think it's a compilation of not having to fight with the controls--I find a gamepad very unintuitive for most games--and the fact that I sit extremely close to the screen, among many other things.

Even if we begin seeing a lack of really exclusive PC games (a sad day), I'll stick to upgrading my PC and playing my games on it, because there is, quite simply, nothing that compares in terms of experience.

[jpublic]

Oh, Smoof, testify mah PC brother!

[Ravenlock]

Indeed. While testifying, come back on our podcast every once in awhile, ya bum.

[Smoof]

I would, I just haven't had the time lately, it seems. Plus, I sort-of figured I never had much interesting to say, so I was just a fifth wheel, hah.

I also forgot my Skype account for awhile.

Also, are you guys still using Wave? I have some time tonight if you guys are doing it, as it looks like Duke's post, but the Wave hasn't been updated since July.

[J Arcane]

I've been a PC gamer from before I even had a PC.

To elucidate: Almost all of my favorite console games, from the 8-bit days and beyond, were actually either ports of PC games, variants of PC franchises, or otherwise possessed a very PC gameplay style.

On the NES my all-time favorite game was Ultima: Exodus. The SNES, Ultima: The False Prophet. The Genesis was rife with PC ports and I owned a number of them, and was particularly fond of Star Control. The N64 was all about shooters for me, because the controller is still the next best thing to a mouse and keyboard. My most played games on the PS1 were Warcraft II, Diablo, and Red Alert. I loved the Xbox most of all last gen, largely because I was broke, and it was filled with PC ports, which meant I didn't need a PC to play many of them, and the games that weren't actual ports were new games from Western devs used to working on PC.

Certainly there were also more console-style games on those platforms I enjoyed, but time and time again the gameplay that kept me coming back was the stuff of PCs.

Eventually, I just sold off my console collection and stuck with the PC 24/7. The consoles we have in the house now my roommate paid for, though I think I pitched in on the Wii. The PS3 hasn't even been hooked up in months because we don't have an HD set that isn't one of our computer monitors, and the Wii is basically a Netflix machine at this point.

My favorite genres are, and have always been, open-world RPGs, FPS games, strategy games, games that basically have always played best with a mouse and keyboard. And there's just a certain depth of approach and content that PC has traditionally been stronger on in many respects. So that is what I gravitate towards.

[Ravenlock]

I would, I just haven't had the time lately, it seems. Plus, I sort-of figured I never had much interesting to say, so I was just a fifth wheel, hah.

I also forgot my Skype account for awhile.

Also, are you guys still using Wave? I have some time tonight if you guys are doing it, as it looks like Duke's post, but the Wave hasn't been updated since July.

We make a new Wave for every episode. You're probably not added to it. We're actually just about to get going if you want, but there was some homework for this episode. ;)

[MagGnome]

I started gaming on computers back in the early 90s, when I was just a wee lad. I've been a huge fan of PC gaming ever since, although I will readily admit that the platform went through some very dark days from around 2002 until 2008/9. I even decided to give up PC gaming altogether in 2007 and bought an Xbox 360, a purchase I would later come to regret. I'm now fully back on the PC gaming bandwagon, and I think that digital distribution and the rise of indie developers have totally revolutionized the platform. Steam, Impulse, GOG, Gamersgater, Direct 2 Drive, et al and the various indie developers (along with publishing giants like EA, Activision, etc.) that fuel them are leading what I think is a renaissance for the platform.

Long live PC gaming!


Edit - I'll add that most of the problems I've had with PC gaming in the past have been mostly wiped out by digital distribution. I prefer gaming on the PC for a variety of reasons, from the control set up and comfort level, to the fact that with some tinkering I can play nearly every PC release from the last 25+ years. Most of my favorite genres (such as "god" games, strategy games, and RPGs) are heavily represented on the PC, and I like the deeper nature of most PC games compared to console titles.

I rarely buy games from the big publishers (as in one or two a year, tops), yet I still have a ton of games to play on my PC. The breadth of PC gaming is simply incredible.

[Smoof]

We make a new Wave for every episode. You're probably not added to it. We're actually just about to get going if you want, but there was some homework for this episode. ;)

Well, whatever. It's looking like I might not have much time anyway; getting hungry now and I still need to cook some dinner, as well as wait for the fiance to get home. We had some plans for tonight, I think. But, I may be able to join you guys late, I suppose I'll shoot you a message on Skype when I'm available and see if you guys are still going.

[Voodoo]

What's this thread about??

[iHap]

What's this thread about??
Basically I wanted to know what people thought about PC Gaming as a whole from all of CoG.

[Voodoo]

Basically I wanted to know what people thought about PC Gaming as a whole from all of CoG.
Haha! I know that. ;) I was just messing around. :D

The state of PC Gaming can be defined as the Return of the Small Developer. In regards to the players - it is quite healthy and there have never been more people playing PC Games than now and that number will continually increase. The BIG difference now is that there are a lot fewer people that are strictly playing PC Games. It appears to me that more and more people are becoming quite platform agnostic.

[Pale Ale]

Basically I wanted to know what people thought about PC Gaming as a whole from all of CoG.

But PC Gaming is Dying! I know this because there have been multiple threads telling me, repeatedly, that PC Gaming is Dying.

So 1) this has to be true.

And 2) I hope it never ends.

[SilentScreams]

Despite PC gaming being in it's death throes for going on 20 years (:D), I'm almost exclusively a PC gamer. Always have been.

I own all the consoles, but at this moment I'm struggling to think of too many exclusives that make me want to dust them off.
I'll probably play a bit of Halo Reach, but other than that I can get everything I want on the PC for the foreseeable future. I'd get Reach on the PC if I could, but I guess MS have to justify their consoles existence somehow.

[Doogie2K]

for the PC, I had games like Alpha Protocol, Assassin's Creed 2, PoP, Batman, KB: Armored Princess, Stalker:CoP, Torchlight, Elemental (heh)..

Two Ubisoft games? That's a surprise. I didn't think anyone here bought Ubi games on PC anymore thanks to their retarded-ass DRM.

Anyway, I'm with a lot of the responders here. Been a PC guy since I got my first one at age nine, and I've always been a PC guy at heart, though for a few years my PC was shit (BioShock = slideshow on an X1300; who knew?), so I got into consoles then, and pretty much only then. As soon as I built my new rig, I've scarcely touched my console, which is kind of sad, actually, because I got a lot of cool shit for it over Christmas.

But then I look at my Steam list and go fuuuuuuuuuck because it's SO DAMNED FULL. From tiny indies like Uplink to weird, artsy stuff like The Path to console GOTY candidates like Batman: AA to old PC standbys like the Civilizations, the selection is just absurd, and you just can't compete with the prices and convenience of PC gaming right now. If you can stomach the still-high (though lower than ever before, relatively speaking) barrier of entry, it's the best place to play games right now. Even console-style games are mostly fine: as long as you don't get a dodgy port (which have been less frequent the last year or two) and you have a plug-in 360 controller, you're golden. If we could just get past everyone's Godforsaken obsession with draconian DRM -- EA and Ubisoft, I'm looking at you -- it would be hard to find a true drawback.

Oh yeah, and whenever Blizzard starts actually putting out games, that's a good time to be a PC gamer as a general rule. ;)

[Adam Blue]

I love PC gaming. But, while there's still a ton of cool games coming out, they are pretty watered-down. My style of RTS isn't as prevalent and FPS's are child's play. It's either cool little unique indie titles or console ports. There are a few gems here and there, but the amount I used to play on PC is just not as big anymore. I think the indie aspect and content delivery is only going to reinvigorate the platform.

MS announcing Flight is an awesome thing though.

[nabokovfan87]

Basically I wanted to know what people thought about PC Gaming as a whole from all of CoG.

One thing to understand before I answer, I despise the fact that console do not allow m/kb while pc has had controller support since the 90's.

Very few console games are unavailable on PC. Things like Halo, Gears, uncharted, killzone, are all games that would be nice to have on pc, but you really do not need when you consider the bredth of the PC shooter market. Fear, RS, GR, SWAT, etc. are all what I would describe as better games, but there are things like the KZ2 online mode that I would love to see on the PC.

Something that desperately needs to happen is pc's need GT and consoles need Strategy games. It is tough to think of other places where an entire genre of game has to be completely overhauled because of fear and bias that one controller preference is better then the other or that one will overtake, or even lead to lost sales. I find it facinating that microsoft is trying so damn hard to starve of its PC ports and just make console games, but ultimately things like XBL and PSN just cannot compete with what is available on PC.

Needless to say, I play my stuff on PC because I want to play racers with a controller, shooters with a mouse, and strategy games with a keyboard. I don't want some schmuck exec telling me what is best for me or deciding what matches I should be able to join. I should be able to mod anything, play in any server, and choose things like controllers no matter what the game.

Now, take a look at what is coming, starcraft, wow v2, batman, torchlight 2/mmo, diablo 3, civ V, fallout new vegas, ghost recon, fear 3, and a LOT of other titles. Based on that, there is no way the PC is dead. Based on the fact that the PC is so open, ATI/AMD is making way by selling cheap hardware, and Intel is getting the shit sued out of them for business practices all leads to more people building, and getting into PC gaming. Steam is on Mac now, Mac and Windows players are playing counter-strike: Source right now. Linux will be in there soon. The fact that you can do so much, the audience is virtually endless, it really does make me thankful that I have a PC to play games with, only because I know the PC market isn't going anywhere but up.

[Ravenlock]

Two Ubisoft games? That's a surprise. I didn't think anyone here bought Ubi games on PC anymore thanks to their retarded-ass DRM.

Point of interest - Alpha Protocol isn't an Ubisoft game. I have it on Steam and it has no retarded-ass DRM.

Too right about Assassin's Creed II though.

[muddi900]

A few years ago my 360 and PC died at the same time. Since I needed a PC for school, there was no question where I was spending that money. I still had some leftover, so I bought a GPU and PSU. The first game I tried was Mass Effect, which I found rather lackluster on the 360. I have yet to look back. I do play my PS3 from time to time, but PC is my platform of choice now.

I also need to jump back into Torchlight. Can anybody shoot me some mod recommendations?

[Ravenlock]

I would be happy to! Head over to this Fileplanet page (http://www.fileplanet.com/fileblog/archives/2010/08/entry_3741.shtml) to get a few ideas.

The Torchlight Texture Project in particular makes the game look spectacular. The Merchant Pack and Leviathan quest giver are also pretty sweet.

I passed on the class mod and the total UI reskin, but the three above are awesome.

Also, get Torchleech (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftorchleech.runicgamesfansite.com% 3A7000%2F&ei=uql3TOPnKYGKlwfLpaDsCw&usg=AFQjCNF5H2liWjy4PcZ0aXvnJkn2BCcBQg&sig2=RcTQqV5R_DC7m7WmuiDxdA) for sure if you haven't yet, and install your mods through it rather than Fileplanet (just use the Fileplanet page to grab the names) - it's the best mod manager for almost any game I've ever seen.

While you're in Torchleech, if you want to try something really different, grab the Airbender+ShadowDancer new class pack by Matt Nguyen. Really something else.

[roboninja]

I would be happy to! Head over to this Fileplanet page (http://www.fileplanet.com/fileblog/archives/2010/08/entry_3741.shtml) to get a few ideas.

The Torchlight Texture Project in particular makes the game look spectacular. The Merchant Pack and Leviathan quest giver are also pretty sweet.

I passed on the class mod and the total UI reskin, but the three above are awesome.

Also, get Torchleech (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBIQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftorchleech.runicgamesfansite.com% 3A7000%2F&ei=uql3TOPnKYGKlwfLpaDsCw&usg=AFQjCNF5H2liWjy4PcZ0aXvnJkn2BCcBQg&sig2=RcTQqV5R_DC7m7WmuiDxdA) for sure if you haven't yet, and install your mods through it rather than Fileplanet (just use the Fileplanet page to grab the names) - it's the best mod manager for almost any game I've ever seen.

While you're in Torchleech, if you want to try something really different, grab the Airbender+ShadowDancer new class pack by Matt Nguyen. Really something else.

Mods; yet another reason why gaming will always be best on the PC.

[Narradisall]

To me, it just really depends on the game.

RTS's, Sims, or any strat games are a PC must. Also some games with more complex controls I favour the Keyboard and Mouse. Dungeon crawlers too.

For simpler games, where I can just kick back and mindlessly smoosh things. Console is the way to go.

Ofc Steam games help as well. I must say, I feel PC gaming is much weaker than it once was, but there is still a chance for it to do better, there's just so much potential for PC games (see mods).

[Dukefrukem]

I wish all console games were porter to PC (eventually...maybe years after release), I don't care how bad the port. I want to play crappy games like Wet and the third Call of Duty on PC. How much does it cost to port a console game? Not that much?

[jpublic]

I wish all console games were porter to PC (eventually...maybe years after release), I don't care how bad the port. I want to play crappy games like Wet and the third Call of Duty on PC. How much does it cost to port a console game? Not that much?

Despire the fact they're developed on PC, it's apparently harder than you'd think.

*shrug*

[muddi900]

And that's why we have so many shitty UE3 games; portability. Its a thorn even in games that do not suck, e.g. Mass Effect.

[Dukefrukem]

Mass Effect was a bad port??

[nabokovfan87]

Mass Effect was a bad port??

Pretty sure he said ME doesn't suck.

For me the concept of "bad port" pretty much starts with a level of craptasticness that is FO3, ME runs perfectly fine. Just had to remember to run as admin in win7

[SilentScreams]

I found the PC version of ME to be far better than the 360 version which I played first. As far as I can tell there isn't a single downside to playing it on the PC.

Edit: Uh oh, Nab...don't start that whole FO3 thing again. :D

[Dukefrukem]

Yeh I read that wrong.

[Panthera]

Yeah, that's pretty much the classic example of a port better than the original.

[nabokovfan87]

I found the PC version of ME to be far better than the 360 version which I played first. As far as I can tell there isn't a single downside to playing it on the PC.

Edit: Uh oh, Nab...don't start that whole FO3 thing again. :D

I don't intend to. Geez that game was shit.

So, let's warp this thread.

Pick, top 3 or 5 pc and console games, why would you choose them on that specific platform if they are elsewhere, and I don't just mean because of graphics or m/kb but other reasons. We know pc has better looks and controls, but why else.

[violent]

I don't intend to. Geez that game was shit.

So, let's warp this thread.

Pick, top 3 or 5 pc and console games, why would you choose them on that specific platform if they are elsewhere, and I don't just mean because of graphics or m/kb but other reasons. We know pc has better looks and controls, but why else.

Performance is the third major factor in choosing PC over console versions.

Edit: Alt + Tab is another good one.

[Ravenlock]

I prefer to pick up anything multiplayer on PC entirely because of Steam.

XBL has never really done it for me in terms of making multiplayer easy and enjoyable, partly I think because I don't have my 360 on all that often and when I do, half the time I'm playing single-player anyhow and don't want contact with friends.

But my PC is always on and always has Steam running, and that's true for so many people, so finding somebody to do multiplayer with on the PC has become a practically effortless thing.

[Vandabo]

I prefer to pick up anything multiplayer on PC entirely because of Steam.

XBL has never really done it for me in terms of making multiplayer easy and enjoyable, partly I think because I don't have my 360 on all that often and when I do, half the time I'm playing single-player anyhow and don't want contact with friends.

But my PC is always on and always has Steam running, and that's true for so many people, so finding somebody to do multiplayer with on the PC has become a practically effortless thing.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. Plus having the ability to just do text chatting (both in and out of games, and with people in different games) through steam is so nice. I almost always have other media going while I'm gaming, either music, podcasts or movies, so I often don't want to have to voice chat. Of course there are tons of ways to do voice chat on PC as well, if you want that.

For me the most fun I've ever had gaming is playing online shooters in dedicated servers where there is a solid regular player community and active moderation. All the settings are the way you like them, asshats are quickly dispatched, and you don't have to worry about searching for a match. It's like going to your favorite bar to hang out, except instead of playing darts you are shooting at each other. I remember coming home from middle school and opening up Quake and just typing in the IP address of the Team Fortress server I always played on, and joining my friends who had just gotten home themselves. We were all in the top 5 on the server, and almost every day at the same time we would connect and the domination would begin. Eventually a clan was formed with the other regulars on the server.

All this is very easy on the PC, and usually not possible on consoles.

[Crittias]

I prefer that the PC has in general made the jump to pure DD. I prefer the fact that when I play on my PC, I can multitask.These two points epitomize the state of gaming for me. On my PC, I can download any game I want to play, forgoing physical media. And I can multitask, so I can actually play and do light work simultaneously. That's hard to beat.

[nabokovfan87]

To reply to my own challenge:

PC

1. Evil Genius (One of the most unique and hillarious games ever made, played this for around 3 years, look forward to playing it again, whenever I do. Best story, visuals, and gameplay, when you compare it to how unique and unlike any other this game actually is.)
2. F.E.A.R. (atmospheric effect of playing this game at night with the light of and a nice sound system cannot be duplicated on console)
3. S.W.A.T. 4 (Only game to have non-lethal weapons, pip sniper, and lots of cool gameplay effects such as pepper a bean bag shot effects)
4. Counter-Strike: Source (Gungame, and crazy other online modes, maps, and so forth. Apart from mods, there is no console shooter on par with the speed of this game)
5. Rainbow Six 3 (Best FPS strategy game ever made, planning is unique to PC and bredth of weapon selection is second to none)

Console:

1. Demon's Souls (Console exclusive, best game ever made in my opinion)
2. Gran Turismo (Console exclusive, insane depth and realistic feel through something as subtle as rumble and a dpad)
3. Heavy Rain (Most interesting gameplay to me, controls are phenomenal)
4. Super Mario (console exclusive, collection of best platformers ever made)
5. Lair (and no, it isn't a joke, console exclusive, very cool way to play a strategy type game, made me imagine a flight sim in a whole new light, and I loved every second of it. Very cool looking and amazing story)

[jpublic]

You console list amuses the crap out of me, Nabs.

1) Demon's Souls - My rants on this game are nigh-infamous around here, we won't go into how I feel abotu it.
2) Gran Turismo - Considering I hate the simulator subgenre of racers, and prefer the arcade-esque subgenre, well....
3) Heavy Rain - I paid $10+trades for this (about $40). I feel like I paid $20 too much.
4) Super Mario - Yeah, given.
5) Lair - It was actually fun. Would have been better on PC, though. :D

[burger]

I buy 2 copies of most games. One for my 360 since that's what my friends have and we love to do MP and brag about achievements. And a second copy for my PC so I can play it at max resolution with every graphic feature enabled.

[nabokovfan87]

You console list amuses the crap out of me, Nabs.

1) Demon's Souls - My rants on this game are nigh-infamous around here, we won't go into how I feel abotu it.
2) Gran Turismo - Considering I hate the simulator subgenre of racers, and prefer the arcade-esque subgenre, well....
3) Heavy Rain - I paid $10+trades for this (about $40). I feel like I paid $20 too much.
4) Super Mario - Yeah, given.
5) Lair - It was actually fun. Would have been better on PC, though. :D


5. No DOUBT, I would love to have any of these on PC. I also played David Cage's first game on pc, very cool, but HR was a step above.

4. Exactly

3. I paid 60, would do it again, but now it is what, 20?

2. B-Spec mode, give it a shot.

1. I love the visual design and gameplay design, the combat is fantastic. For my first RPG, needless to say, it is top notch above any of them I have played, and with the first two things I mentioned, makes it best of everything. I grant GT5 will take that spot.

[jpublic]

3. I paid 60, would do it again, but now it is what, 20?

2. B-Spec mode, give it a shot.


I've played B-Spec, it's still not my thing. I love me some PGR.

As for Heavy Rain, being $20...AHAHAHAHahahahaha. It's still getting premium new prices - or damn close to them (within 10%).

If I had paid full price (or near that) for Heavy Rain I would be a lot more pissed off with my pruchase than I am. As it is, I'm only mildly disappointed with it.

[AversionFX]

To reply to my own challenge:

PC

1. Evil Genius (One of the most unique and hillarious games ever made, played this for around 3 years, look forward to playing it again, whenever I do. Best story, visuals, and gameplay, when you compare it to how unique and unlike any other this game actually is.)

Evil Genius is such a good game. I'm going to dig out my copy and play it again. SimCity is another game I mull over, thinking of ways to actually succeed.

[Vandabo]

I buy 2 copies of most games. One for my 360 since that's what my friends have and we love to do MP and brag about achievements. And a second copy for my PC so I can play it at max resolution with every graphic feature enabled.

Sounds like you need to get your friends into PC gaming. You can even have achievements with Steam.

[muddi900]

I forgot to thank Ravenlock. Thank you, sir! Will try them out.

[Ravenlock]

My pleasure. Let me know what you think of 'em (and if you find any I missed with Torchleech, which has a great master list). :)

[jpublic]

Big warning on Torchlight - if you plan to take advantage of the Cloud, you have to make sure all places you play have the exact same mods installed.

[Xydarc]

Console gaming for me isn't necessarily Console games or Console exclusive games. Don't get me wrong, I love games that are unapologetically Console games like say Demon's Souls or Valkyria Chronicles, but it isn't always about those. The Console is my platform of choice simply because I find the experience of playing on a Console much, much more immersive than gaming on a console. When I play a game on my PC, I feel like I'm doing just that, playing a game. Switching over to the Console side of things, I feel much more like I'm in the game and I really get sucked into them in a way I don't on a PC. I'm not sure if there's any one single factor to this, but I think it's a compilation of not having to fight with the controls--I find a keyboard very unintuitive for most games--and the fact that I sit extremely close to the screen, among many other things.

Even if we begin seeing a lack of really exclusive Console games (a sad day), I'll stick to upgrading my Console and playing my games on it, because there is, quite simply, nothing that compares in terms of experience.

Just an experiment in perspective.

[Doogie2K]

Point of interest - Alpha Protocol isn't an Ubisoft game. I have it on Steam and it has no retarded-ass DRM.

Too right about Assassin's Creed II though.

The other was Prince of Persia. Though it occurs to me now that one of the two current-gen PoPs was released without DRM (and failed miserably due to other release circumstances, thus justifying future releases having it), and I don't know which was being referred to.

[jpublic]

Perhaps we haven't met, I'm JPublic, the guy who rarely if ever has trouble with DRM, be it Ubisoft's, GFWL, or EA's SecurROM crap.

The DRM in AC2 and PoP 2009 never bothered me at all.

Actually, the only DRM that bugs me is Spore's, since I'd love to pass on my copy to a friend's kid, but my copy's locked to me.

[nabokovfan87]

Didn't one of the more recent Prince of Persia games release w/o any drm, leading to this whole ubi uber-DRM?

[MagGnome]

Evil Genius is such a good game. I'm going to dig out my copy and play it again. SimCity is another game I mull over, thinking of ways to actually succeed.

I played a ton of Evil Genius last week. It's such a fun game! I got a little burned out on it after playing for nearly 10 hours, but I'm sure I will go back to it again before too long.

Oh, and I believe that it is nearly impossible to "succeed" in SimCity. I can never seem to build a city that doesn't have serious problems. It's still a blast, though. I'm thinking about picking up SimCity 4 on Steam.

[CappinCanuck]

Well, even Ubi's newest releases don't have the uber-drm (i.e. Ruse). There was a lot of hate on the forums after the game went gold and it got pulled. Not sure if it'll stay or not. They keep saying it is getting expanded, maybe it just doesn't currently work the way they want it to?

[jpublic]

Didn't one of the more recent Prince of Persia games release w/o any drm, leading to this whole ubi uber-DRM?

Yep. The non-Sands of Time PoP, which was probably my favorite, had no DRM, which they *claimed* was to test how the market would react.

Of course, they crippled the game in marketting/promotion, so it didn't do so hot.

But they blamed that on the pirates, even though it was one of the less pirated Ubisoft games in recent history.

[nabokovfan87]

Well, even Ubi's newest releases don't have the uber-drm (i.e. Ruse). There was a lot of hate on the forums after the game went gold and it got pulled. Not sure if it'll stay or not. They keep saying it is getting expanded, maybe it just doesn't currently work the way they want it to?

Release, not releases. Just R.U.S.E. and they have said it is because they game will be steam supported and they said day after if broke that the games following have the drm planned for it.

Just think of Ubisoft as testing and seeing, but likely the next few releases will have it unless there is just overwhelming purchasing of ruse.

Or they could just say "Look! the pirates had to buy it because it was on steam, so many more sales!"

[iHap]

Thanks for all the feedback, along with all the posts in this thread and one of the events at PAX, I'll be doing a write up about PC Gaming.

Saturday, 8:00 PM - 9:00 PM, Wolfman Theatre
The Future of PC Gaming

The PC is by far the most prevalent gaming platform in the world and is likely to be for the foreseeable future. The majority of innovations in gaming continue to be driven on the PC platform. Recent examples include 3D, touch screen, and multi-screen technologies – but what lies ahead? Come to this PC Gaming Alliance-led panel discussion to find out. Panelists will include Chris Taylor, Gas Powered Games; Bryan de Zayas, Dell/Alienware; Kevin Unangst, Microsoft; and David Cole, DFC Intelligence.


Panelists include: David Cole [Analyst, DFC Intelligence], Kevin Unangst [Microsoft], Byran De Zayas [Global Product Marketing Manager, Dell/Alienware], Chris Taylor [CEO and Creative Director, Gas Powered Games]

[nabokovfan87]

Why is a dude from dell there. A manager, to top it off. Should get an AMD/Nvidia/Game design engine dude from crytek on the panel, not some dude who says "dude, your getting a dell" for a living.

[jpublic]

nab, the dude is in charge of marketting for Alienware, and he's been involved in getting their products in the homes of gamers for years.

He belongs there.

[nabokovfan87]

For a "state of the pc"/"future of the pc" type discussion, would you rather have someone who sells pc's, or someone who makes them?

One person is years ahead of the other, and one talks directly to the consumer, the other talks at them.

Nothing against the guy, just in my opinion, if you were scheduling that discussion, that person just didn't think it through.

Also, dude is from marketing, not production or future planning at dell, just marketing. He isn't even in charge of buying PCs, he just pushes the dell brand. Now I wonder how many times he will mention dell and alienware.

[Ravenlock]

You know, it may be as simple as "that's who we could get."

[nabokovfan87]

That is exactly what I think happened. Or, more likely, call people on the list until you get "enough" not paying attention to any particular order.

Like I said, not a huge deal, just a "well that seems dumb" moment I had.

[Karak]

Simple question, in your opinion what is the state of PC Gaming? From the perspective of the CoG community I'm curious what we all think about this. What do you think about it now, where it's headed. Why do you buy PC Games, or why do you buy PC Games over Console games if they are cross-platform?

I'd like to know what this community sees in PC Gaming, and their opinions on all related topics about this.

Games wise its awesome.
Getting the games to run sometimes is...fucking horrid. I do indeed get spoiled with consoles when it comes to...put game in, game runs.
Not the case with PC's.

[Karak]

I buy 2 copies of most games. One for my 360 since that's what my friends have and we love to do MP and brag about achievements. And a second copy for my PC so I can play it at max resolution with every graphic feature enabled.

I do the same with many.
PC's with mods and high res. But I usually wait until the first or second patch, or at least to check with community peeps to see if the fucker even runs right out of the box which isn't as likely as it may seem, or has driver issues.

Console I get for sitting around with my pals on the projector and tossing the controller back and forth, XBL, and achievements and the awesomeness of just turning the game on to play it.

[Dukefrukem]

Bumpin this because RPS has a pretty awesome write up on The Very Important List Of PC Games,... a fun retrospect. So happy I was able play most of these.

Part 1 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/14/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-1/)

Part 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/15/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RockPaperShotgun+(Rock,+Paper,+ Shotgun))

Games I never played:

Battlezone
PlanetSide
Tribes 2
Hidden & Dangerous
Frontier: Elite 2
Syndicate
Typing Of The Dead
City Of Heroes

[Crittias]

Bumpin this because RPS has a pretty awesome write up on The Very Important List Of PC Games,... a fun retrospect. So happy I was able play most of these.

Part 1 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/14/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-1/)

Part 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/15/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RockPaperShotgun+(Rock,+Paper,+ Shotgun))A great article. I have played almost everything on the list, with these exceptions:
Frontier: Elite 2
Typing of the Dead (wtf, seriously?)
Lemmings (I think I played a demo)
Dragon Age (it's in my to-play Steam queue)
TrackMania Sunrise

I guess I qualify as an avid PC gamer?

[Dukefrukem]

A great article. I have played almost everything on the list, with these exceptions:
Frontier: Elite 2
Typing of the Dead (wtf, seriously?)
Lemmings (I think I played a demo)
Dragon Age (it's in my to-play Steam queue)
TrackMania Sunrise

I guess I qualify as an avid PC gamer?

You've got the Duke-stamp of approval.

[Lekon]

That list mentioned No One Lives Forever, and I am sad. That game needs a remake/sequel NOW.

Only game to ever have a chase scene be an on rails shooter where you're riding on the back of a tricycle driven by an angry Scotsman.

[Savok]

Typing of the Dead was awesome purely on the silliness of the concept. It was just... fun.

Of course the fact Dragon Age, a console RPG and a bad one at that, is on that list makes it invalid, still.

PC gaming is in a funny place right now, it's decided to turn piracy into a big boogeyman that must be responded to and this has sparked a major shift in how things work. Out of this change two groups have formed.

The first is mostly made up of major publishers. Their response has been to increase budgets (and the price of the games) then sack everyone at the end because they blew it all on advertising and reviewer bribes. Load the games with as much DRM as they possibly can in an attempt to annoy as many paying customers as possible. Lastly they'll spam game stores with exclusive preorder bonuses pissing off even more of us. These are the people who sit there and whine about piracy nonstop.

The second group is mostly made up of the resurgent indie devs who attack the problem by making games people actually want to buy. Thanks to digital distribution they finally can without fighting for shelf space against people with much deeper pockets. With smaller budgets and lower price tags, there's been a lot of success stories. This is the future, with any luck.

[SilentScreams]

Every time I see PlanetSide mentioned it makes me sad. Sad that Sony ruined it like they ruin all of their online games, and sad that to this day there still isn't anything else like it.

[burger]

Bumpin this because RPS has a pretty awesome write up on The Very Important List Of PC Games,... a fun retrospect. So happy I was able play most of these.

Part 1 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/14/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-1/)

Part 2 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/15/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-2/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RockPaperShotgun+(Rock,+Paper,+ Shotgun))


Questionable lists...he got the obvious games right but left out a TON from the 80's and early 90's that were landmark games and incredibly important to PC gaming.

Plus he has a bunch of games from the 2000s that were cross platform games that hardly represent anything unique to PC gaming.

[Reverant]

*mumble* In my day *mumble*

I often wax nostalgic to myself about how PC gaming "used to be." I think what happened to me personally was that as the communities died for the games I loved so much, nothing moved in to re-capture that magic. This was due mostly to the fact I grew up and had less time for games (despite finally having the money to buy them all!)

The most important things in a game to me were servers and mods, which seem to be going away these days. A good server is like a home away from home, and mods represent the freedom and creativity of PC gaming (in my mind).

Halo: Reach is one example. A decade ago, if it had been a made-for-PC release with an SDK, the multiplayer experience would be completely different. The campaign had a section in which you flew a fighter around in space, but there's no MP equivalent. There's no way in hell modders wouldn't integrate that into a the game! Half-Life 2 has a space combat mod, for heavens sakes! Crysis has a complete Mechwarrior experience available! YOU CAN FLY A DELOREAN IN GRAND THEFT AUTO!

Deep breath... and back to Plants vs Zombies.

[burger]

I often wax.

That's cool man..we all have our kinky things we do for the misses.

[Reverant]

That's cool man..we all have our kinky things we do for the misses.

I didn't specify who I wax.

[digitalErich]

Every time I see PlanetSide mentioned it makes me sad. Sad that Sony ruined it like they ruin all of their online games, and sad that to this day there still isn't anything else like it.
You might get your wish, it's been long rumored that Blizzard's next MMO project, code named Titan, is some form of FPS. It's never been confirmed, it's Blizzard of course, but we can all hope.

[Dukefrukem]

Questionable lists...he got the obvious games right but left out a TON from the 80's and early 90's that were landmark games and incredibly important to PC gaming.

Plus he has a bunch of games from the 2000s that were cross platform games that hardly represent anything unique to PC gaming.

I don't think they're finished...

[Savok]

Looking over the list in more detail, it's... weird. He puts Doom over Wolfenstein but System Shock 1 with no mention of 2, which is one most people played. Then Battlefield 2 over 1942. Sacrifice makes no sense being on the list since no one played it and it was kinda shit (if looking terribly good while being shit). And Flashback was a god damn console game.

Part 2 it gets sillier, Dragon Age, Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, Burnout Paradise, Tomb Raider: Legend (what?), KOTOR, Mafia and PoP: Sands of Time are all fucking console games.

Jedi Knight: Mysteries Of The Sith was fucking terrible, baffling when Jedi Outcast is right after it and amazing.

[burger]

I don't think they're finished...

Correct...and they've already included some cross title games that did little for PC gaming. On top of that we've seen very little representation of the 1980's and early 90's which had some incredible titles. Perhaps he's saving all of those for the end.

[SilentScreams]

You might get your wish, it's been long rumored that Blizzard's next MMO project, code named Titan, is some form of FPS. It's never been confirmed, it's Blizzard of course, but we can all hope.

Yeah that would be awesome. Remember that Starcraft MMOFPS that they came up with once as an April Fools joke? I wanted that to be real so badly.

I vaguely remember hearing about something called PlanetSide Next too, although that will be SoE again and I have zero faith in them. I never even read up on it.

[RandoM51]

It is cyclical. PC is on the upswing while console is on the downswing. Usually you get a year or two each generation where the console outdoes the PC. Didn't happen this gen so console's dominance is shorter lived.

[burger]

It is cyclical. PC is on the upswing while console is on the downswing. Usually you get a year or two each generation where the console outdoes the PC. Didn't happen this gen so console's dominance is shorter lived.

Far from cyclical. Unless we consider 1 cycle to be representative of the whole relationship and history. PC's dominated consoles from the mid 90's to early 2000's because they could do things that consoles couldn't do or didn't support widely. That technological edge is gone now that the internet and high end graphics come standard on every console (minus the Wii but in its case it had a technological advantage over the PC in terms of input...the tables had been turned)

Short lived this generation? Consoles have pretty much owned this generation relegating the PC to simply getting ports and the occasional exclusive such as STALKER and Crysis. As a one time PC gaming fanatic my PC for the past 5 years has been used to play old school games, exclusives like STALKER and to see what console games look like at 2560x1600. Yippee! ;)

Why? Because for the first time ever consoles pretty much are PCs. The only advantage the PC has now are higher resolutions and the hope of improved graphics through newer hardware but even still games like Metro 2033, Rage and Crysis 2 are cross platform so it's not like owning a PC gains you much in the way of titles that are pushing the technological envelope.

[Voodoo]

PC Gaming is just returning to its roots. Nothing more and nothing less. The state right now reminds me a lot of how PC Gaming was in the 80's and 90's up to about '96.

[Dukefrukem]

Looking over the list in more detail, it's... weird. He puts Doom over Wolfenstein but System Shock 1 with no mention of 2, which is one most people played. Then Battlefield 2 over 1942. Sacrifice makes no sense being on the list since no one played it and it was kinda shit (if looking terribly good while being shit). And Flashback was a god damn console game.

Part 2 it gets sillier, Dragon Age, Psychonauts, Beyond Good & Evil, Burnout Paradise, Tomb Raider: Legend (what?), KOTOR, Mafia and PoP: Sands of Time are all fucking console games.

Jedi Knight: Mysteries Of The Sith was fucking terrible, baffling when Jedi Outcast is right after it and amazing.

This is a good analysis. Jedi Knight: Mysteries Of The Sith has no place being on the list. if you're gonna put a Jedi Knight game on it, it has to be Jedi Knight II.

[MagGnome]

I think PC gaming is awesome right now. Many of the big publishers have abandoned the platform or treat it as an afterthought, but I personally don't care. I'll take the vibrant, incredible indie community over the derivative crap that most of the big companies shove out, thank you very much.

While I don't agree with every game on that list, it was a nice look down memory lane. Hopefully they add in some "retro" titles soon.

[Superman's Dead]

Why? Because for the first time ever consoles pretty much are PCs. The only advantage the PC has now are higher resolutions and the hope of improved graphics through newer hardware but even still games like Metro 2033, Rage and Crysis 2 are cross platform so it's not like owning a PC gains you much in the way of titles that are pushing the technological envelope.

Input is still something else PCs have an advantage in. PC games can be more complex. Thanks to the nature of the PC (desk, mouse/keyboard) games like Dwarf Fortress are possible. Remember all the fucking buttons flight sims used to have?

That's what I want to see.

[burger]

Input is still something else PCs have an advantage in. PC games can be more complex. Thanks to the nature of the PC (desk, mouse/keyboard) games like Dwarf Fortress are possible. Remember all the fucking buttons flight sims used to have?

That's what I want to see.

I just meant that the Wiimote was something totally new. In this case a console was introducing some new tech instead of a PC which historically was the case.

[Superman's Dead]

I just meant that the Wiimote was something totally new. In this case a console was introducing some new tech instead of a PC which historically was the case.

Oh, I understand completely. But you also said that the only advantages that the PCs have are graphics and such, when I think the natural complexity of the keyboard/mouse combo is another big one.

[Savok]

Still the PC is getting that Hydra thing now which seems to go a step further then the Wiimote. Fuck I'm thinking of buying one just for Portal 2.

[burger]

Oh, I understand completely. But you also said that the only advantages that the PCs have are graphics and such, when I think the natural complexity of the keyboard/mouse combo is another big one.

I worded that poorly and yes you're right the mouse and keyboard are certainly advantages.

[Crittias]

Bumpin this because RPS has a pretty awesome write up on The Very Important List Of PC GamesPart 3 (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/02/16/the-very-important-list-of-pc-games-part-35/) is now posted.

Never played Red Orchestra, and never even heard of Pathologic. Other than that, I think I've played everything on the list.

[Reverant]

I forgot about Red Orchestra. I don't know if servers are still running with enough players, but if you can find it for a couple bucks, it's worth a glance.

If I could use one word to describe RO, it'd be "strict". It's an FPS for those with patience. There are no digital crosshairs. Death is quick. Classes are very strict with player caps (1 sniper per team on some levels, for ex.) You will crawl on your stomach between cover. It took some getting used to, but it's really enjoyable.

Also, some maps are open world tank battles. The developers literally suggest you check out provided tank schematics and study the weak points.

Not a console friendly game.

[Dukefrukem]

A lot of recent games in part 3

MechWarrior 2 should be one of the first friggin games on the list

[Savok]

No one liked Far Cry 2, fail to see how it's more important then the first.

GTA4's a console game, also why 4 of all games?

Starcraft 2 over the first? A fucking national sport in South Korea?

Never played Red Orchestra, but I've heard it said in hushed tones of reverence so I'll give him that.

Braid's a console game.

SWAT 4's a weird choice, but I can dig it.

Startopia never played.

Homeworld, finally a solid one. And look, he didn't even use the sequel.

Max Payne 2's a console game.

Rome: Total War has possibly the worst AI of the series. In terms of importance the first Medieval would rank above it easily.

Ground Control, sure.

Giants never actually worked.

And the rest are good except Pathologic which I have no idea.

Much better then part 2 at any rate. Mind you, I'm fairly certain he has 4 shelves of games and each part is just listing what's on the shelf.

[jpublic]

Hey, a lot of people liked Far Cry 2, myself included. It doesn't average 85% on Metacritic because it's a crappy game.

[Dukefrukem]

Well Max Payne 2 was released on PC first.

and Far Cry 2 is great for the first 30 minutes... after hour 10 you want to pull your hair out

[burger]

No one liked Far Cry 2, fail to see how it's more important then the first..

85% at GameRankings suggests otherwise

Hey, a lot of people liked Far Cry 2, myself included. It doesn't average 85% on Metacritic because it's a crappy game.

What he said ;)

[violent]

PC gaming is dying fast.

Now if anyone needs me, I'll be playing Day of the Tentacle instead of working.

[Ravenlock]

Wow, I can suddenly see why people should never put lists on the internet. :p

Much better then part 2 at any rate. Mind you, I'm fairly certain he has 4 shelves of games and each part is just listing what's on the shelf.

They've tried to be clear about what they're doing, repeatedly, but apparently people aren't picking up on it. Each of the RPS editors is doing their own list, completely independent of the others, and then they'll do a master list at the end. It isn't just one person who's posting a new list every day (come on, there is a byline, it isn't hard to figure that out), and they're absolutely supposed to be personal and individual, not an authoritative consensus.

No one liked Far Cry 2, fail to see how it's more important then the first.

Far Cry 2 got far more critical attention than the first game, especially from the more "serious" games journalism community. It didn't review as well, because it was in some ways a more flawed experience, but it was also treated as a much more interesting one.

Max Payne 2's a console game.

Bullshit, unless Half Life is also a console game because it appeared on the PS2. Max Payne 2 played better on the PC, had a large and supportive PC community (mods, multiplayer, etc), and was generally thought of as a very good experience on the PC. I never heard anyone so much as mention the XBox / PS2 versions outside of reviews.

[burger]

Bullshit, unless Half Life is also a console game because it appeared on the PS2. Max Payne 2 played better on the PC, had a large and supportive PC community (mods, multiplayer, etc), and was generally thought of as a very good experience on the PC. I never heard anyone so much as mention the XBox / PS2 versions outside of reviews.

Initially I thought the same thing but if you actually look at the release dates you'll see that all of the version were released close together.

Half-Life was released THREE years later on the PS2.

Max Payne 2 was released by Rockstar Games for Windows on October 15, 2003,[23] for Xbox on November 25, 2003,[25] for PlayStation 2 on December 2, 2003

It was clearly meant to be a cross platform title from the get go.

[Savok]

Wow, I can suddenly see why people should never put lists on the internet. :p



They've tried to be clear about what they're doing, repeatedly, but apparently people aren't picking up on it. Each of the RPS editors is doing their own list, completely independent of the others, and then they'll do a master list at the end. It isn't just one person who's posting a new list every day (come on, there is a byline, it isn't hard to figure that out), and they're absolutely supposed to be personal and individual, not an authoritative consensus.
Ah, that's actually worse, means no one there knows what they are doing.

Far Cry 2 got far more critical attention than the first game, especially from the more "serious" games journalism community. It didn't review as well, because it was in some ways a more flawed experience, but it was also treated as a much more interesting one.
Seriously? All I heard was white hot rage from forums. Reviewers are easily bought so I ignore most of them.

Bullshit, unless Half Life is also a console game because it appeared on the PS2. Max Payne 2 played better on the PC, had a large and supportive PC community (mods, multiplayer, etc), and was generally thought of as a very good experience on the PC. I never heard anyone so much as mention the XBox / PS2 versions outside of reviews.
It's like Just Cause 2. Console game, oddly works better on PC. The ads here were always pushing the console version.

[burger]

Seriously? All I heard was white hot rage from forums. Reviewers are easily bought so I ignore most of them..

That's the advantage of using sites like GameRankings...it's such an incredibly large cross section of opinions.

One could easily respond by saying that forums are full of haters, cynics, monday morning quarterbacks,etc who like to shit on everything. Well every forum but this one. ;)

Far Cry 2 was well recieved by both gamers and critics...the stats don't lie if you look at sites that aggregate opinions.

[violent]

Max Payne 2 came out on PC first so for me, I classify it as a PC game. But even if it didn't, calling it a PC title due to it being a superior version would be like calling Starcraft a Korean game.

[Savok]

At any rate, I don't see its importance over Far Cry, a technological marvel for the time.

[Dukefrukem]

Seriously? All I heard was white hot rage from forums. Reviewers are easily bought so I ignore most of them.


There was a lot of rage, but it still got more attention than the first game. Far Cry slipped under everyone's radar. To this day, when I hear the Ubisoft intro, Far Cry is the first thing I think of. Anyone else?


7Q2l_GGd96Y

[Savok]

Seriously? Magazines here had 8 page spreads on it. I'm living in the twilight zone.

[burger]

Max Payne 2 came out on PC first so for me, I classify it as a PC game. But even if it didn't, calling it a PC title due to it being a superior version would be like calling Starcraft a Korean game.

By like 5 weeks. It's a cross platform title in the same vein as 90% of the stuff that comes out today.

Games like Half-Life spent years on the PC before ever gracing a console. Portal on the other hand was a cross platform title that played better on a PC...that doesn't make it a PC game though. ;)

[violent]

By like 5 weeks. It's a cross platform title in the same vein as 90% of the stuff that comes out today.

Games like Half-Life spent years on the PC before ever gracing a console. Portal on the other hand was a cross platform title that played better on a PC...that doesn't make it a PC game though. ;)

A fair argument. Naturally there will be a grey area when it comes to times of release. Hypocritically, sometime I want to gauge a titles home based on quality. Portal being a good example. That's simply my personal preference trying to vie it's way into a logical observation though.

[J Arcane]

Seriously? Magazines here had 8 page spreads on it. I'm living in the twilight zone.I had a friend at the game center I worked at who wouldn't shut up about it for weeks.
A fair argument. Naturally there will be a grey area when it comes to times of release. Hypocritically, sometime I want to gauge a titles home based on quality. Portal being a good example. That's simply my personal preference trying to vie it's way into a logical observation though.

Anyone who argues that Portal was not primarily a PC title is not playing with a full deck.

The argument is absurd, and about as legitimate as suggesting that Dead Rising is a cell phone game just because they made a J2ME version.

[violent]

Anyone who argues that Portal was not primarily a PC title is not playing with a full deck.

The argument is absurd, and about as legitimate as suggesting that Dead Rising is a cell phone game just because they made a J2ME version.

It's really not that crazy for the person who gauges platform based on release date. Technically, they are correct. For the one who gauges based on experience, PC is the true home.

2 sides of the same coin.

[digitalErich]

Ah Giant's: CK and RO. Giants was a great game, but you have to had played it at the time for it to make its full impact, I think...years beyond it's time in both gameplay, design, and writing. It's still one of, if not the most humorous games I've ever played.

I still contend that no FPS yet has matched Red Orchestra in terms of a near perfect balance between sim and arcade. It was fast and arcadey enough that it never had dull moments or lulls, and it was sim-ish enough that careful and thoughtful play was rewarded. The infantry combat was awesome in it's own right and the tank combat was just great...again it was a near perfect balance between sim and arcade with the tanks.

I still go through big RO stints where out of no where I'll jump in and play this game for hours a day for a couple of weeks.

[J Arcane]

The Steam download fo Orange Box was a day earlier than the console version. Retail was same day as 360. PS3 didn't get it until December.

So actually, from either metric, it was still a PC game.

[digitalErich]

I wonder what the RO team is up to...I know they won one of those Unreal contests where the prize was a full Unreal tech license and I thought they were going to use it to create a new game.

[violent]

The Steam download fo Orange Box was a day earlier than the console version. Retail was same day as 360. PS3 didn't get it until December.

So actually, from either metric, it was still a PC game.

To you, sure. Seeing as that's the only thing that matters to you, I'm sure this failed attempt at a conversation can be seen as a victory. Gratz. Ding! You leveled up.

[Ravenlock]

Ah, that's actually worse, means no one there knows what they are doing.

And still means you couldn't be bothered to read their simple explanations of what they were doing. ;)

Seriously? All I heard was white hot rage from forums. Reviewers are easily bought so I ignore most of them.

From the sorts of people who write about games (not review them) either as a job or like it's their job - folks on The Escapist, Gamasutra, Idle Thumbs, etc - Far Cry 2 got a ton of positive attention for its approach to atmosphere and emergent gameplay. The first game was a technical marvel and even a very good game until the mutants show up, but Far Cry 2 is viewed as the one that was really doing something worth examining.

It's like Just Cause 2. Console game, oddly works better on PC. The ads here were always pushing the console version.

I don't believe for a second that Max Payne 2 was developed to primarily be a console title. If you're claiming that "cross-platform" and "it's a console game" are the same thing, then I disagree. Team Fortress 2 showed up on the 360 and PS3. It's a PC game, soup to nuts.

EDIT: Actually, let's just make that the question. If TF2 shows up on one of these lists (maybe it has, I haven't read them all yet), will your response be "it's a console game"? It would be equally as (in)valid.

[J Arcane]

To you, sure. Seeing as that's the only thing that matters to you, I'm sure this failed attempt at a conversation can be seen as a victory. Gratz. Ding! You leveled up.

Wrong is wrong.

I guess if the only kind of "conversation" you like is a vapid one, then you might not care, but I wasn't raised to be that kind of fool.

[violent]

Wrong is wrong.

I guess if the only kind of "conversation" you like is a vapid one, then you might not care, but I wasn't raised to be that kind of fool.

But you are a fool, don't you see that? You cannot look past your own perceptions and that makes you ignorant. There is a difference between an early release for certain adopters and an actual title release.

And if you weren't that kind of fool, you would see that personally, I think Portal is a PC game as it is the superior version but those that gauge platform based on date will consider it a multi-platform which is also correct. Reason we share the same opinion but only one of us understands the other side is because I'm not absorbed by my own opinions.

And to call a differing opinion wrong? You only add fuel to that fire of ignorance.

[J Arcane]

Even by this alternate perspective you tout, the point was still wrong. You get that right? Portal was developed on PC, it was released first on PC, it had more features on PC. It is a PC game, end of fuckin' story.

Giving equal time to idiocy spreads far more ignorance. "It's just my opinion" is the last cry of someone whose facts aren't on his side.

[iHap]

But you are a fool, don't you see that?

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ltr2c2.jpg

[burger]

Anyone who argues that Portal was not primarily a PC title is not playing with a full deck. .

Despite being released on the 360 the exact same day. Yeah...sounds like a PC game to me. :p

The argument is absurd, and about as legitimate as suggesting that Dead Rising is a cell phone game just because they made a J2ME version.

What's actually absurd is comparing a completely different game released on a cell phone to another game released on a console. That's like comparing Rage for the iPhone to the version being released next year.

If you're gonna accuse others of not playing with a full deck at least have more than the Joker card in your own pile. :p

[violent]

Even by this alternate perspective you tout, the point was still wrong. You get that right? Portal was developed on PC, it was released first on PC, it had more features on PC. It is a PC game, end of fuckin' story.

Giving equal time to idiocy spreads far more ignorance. "It's just my opinion" is the last cry of someone whose facts aren't on his side.

And when you create the metrics of judgment to cater to your opinion, everybody is Einstein.

[Savok]

And still means you couldn't be bothered to read their simple explanations of what they were doing. ;)
Yes well it cuts into yuri time :p

From the sorts of people who write about games (not review them) either as a job or like it's their job - folks on The Escapist, Gamasutra, Idle Thumbs, etc - Far Cry 2 got a ton of positive attention for its approach to atmosphere and emergent gameplay. The first game was a technical marvel and even a very good game until the mutants show up, but Far Cry 2 is viewed as the one that was really doing something worth examining.
In fairness Halo 3 gets universal praise from the media and it's horrible.

Also yes, fuck those god damn mutants. You were playing it, it was awesome, then suddenly mutant gorillas.

I don't believe for a second that Max Payne 2 was developed to primarily be a console title. If you're claiming that "cross-platform" and "it's a console game" are the same thing, then I disagree. Team Fortress 2 showed up on the 360 and PS3. It's a PC game, soup to nuts.

EDIT: Actually, let's just make that the question. If TF2 shows up on one of these lists (maybe it has, I haven't read them all yet), will your response be "it's a console game"? It would be equally as (in)valid.
I'm going by the advertising we had here. It was whored as a console game, hell the slow down mechanic was developed partially so you could actually aim with a controller.

[J Arcane]

Despite being released on the 360 the exact same day. Yeah...sounds like a PC game to me. :p

Except that's wrong. It came out first on Steam.

And when you create the metrics of judgment to cater to your opinion, everybody is Einstein.
The only "metric of judgement" I'm using here is the facts.

[violent]

The only "metric of judgement" I'm using here is the facts.

So you're saying that anyone who gauges platform status on release date is incorrect? I have to disagree. While I agree PC is the superior version in this case, I don't have the balls to say someone else's view on the matter is incorrect, seeing as my perception is no greater than theirs.

Except that's wrong. It came out first on Steam.

You may as well consider broken street dates as actual release dates then. It would cater to your argument, after all.

[Ravenlock]

Jesus Christ you two. It's like watching two kids play the "I'm not touching you!" game. :p

[burger]

Except that's wrong. It came out first on Steam..

According to the web they came out on the same day...the fact that Steam user MIGHT have been able to get early access by a measly 24 hours hardly makes Orange Box a PC game.

Using your logic half the games we think of as cross platform are actually PC games because Steam was able to sell them 4 hours before GameStop opened.

But you are a fool, don't you see that?.

I'm beginning to think your response is more appropriate than my more verbose one. Next J Arcane will be pointing out that all of these console games were developed on a PC and are therefore all PC games. In fact every game is actually a PC game.

He wins the internet!!!! :p

You may as well consider broken street dates as actual release dates then. It would cater to your argument, after all.

Exactly. Orange Box was meant to cater to consoles as a way for them to finally experience an assortment of Valve titles. Hilarious that J Arcane thinks Portal is a PC game despite being packaged in something called Orange Box that contained Half-Life 2 from 2004 and Episode 1 from 2006.

Yep...sounds like Orange Box was geared towards PC gamers.

[Savok]

It's like watching your parents have an existential argument on the perception of reality.

"Nothing is true Margaret, everything is perceived!"

"That's just an convenient excuse for you not flushing the damn toilet!"

[Dukefrukem]

I'm trying to back you up here J, but I don't have anything...

[violent]

It's like watching your parents have an existential argument on the perception of reality.

"Nothing is true Margaret, everything is perceived!"

"That's just an convenient excuse for you not flushing the damn toilet!"

Except he's telling me that dogs don't shit. Fuck did my dog do this morning then?

[J Arcane]

So you're saying that anyone who gauges platform status on release date is incorrect? I have to disagree. While I agree PC is the superior version in this case, I don't have the balls to say someone else's view on the matter is incorrect, seeing as my perception is no greater than theirs.
I am saying that even juding on release date, it was stil a PC game because it came out on the PC first.


You may as well consider broken street dates as actual release dates then. It would cater to your argument, after all.

Except for the part where it's not comparable at all because it was the publisher and developer of the bloody game that authorized the release.

Look dude, I get that you like to get your monthly ego stroking by waltzing in and standing aloof of the rest of us while spouting one liners. We all have our own means of wanking our egos, that's yours.

But you should at least make an attempt at actually having a legitimate point. This isn't an issue for the Dude philopsophy here, it is a factual issue. And the facts are pretty goddamn indisputable.

[burger]

It bares repeating...Portal debuted in a product called Orange Box which contained Half-Life 2 from 2004 and Episode 1 from 2006.

Valve clearly had the consoles in mind when they bundled all of those games together to give people enough value to warrant $59. If it had been a PC game they would have released it separately up front. It was actually released as a stand alone product the following year

[burger]

You almost have to admire his persistence.

[Savok]

Ever play a Valve game on a console? Yeesh....

[J Arcane]

I'm trying to back you up here J, but I don't have anything...
There's nothing more to be had. Facts are facts.

[violent]

There's nothing more to be had. Facts are facts.

At least tell me you're an insomniac and validating your opinions is the only way you sleep at night but the emotion that you carry when attempting to do so only proves that the only ego needing stroking is yours. On the internet no less.

I'm going to repeat this one last time for you, while I can agree that Portal is primarily a PC title, I do so based on the point Savok just made, nothing more. Those that go about it in a more technical manner are no more incorrect than I.

Mow over that for a while, see if you get it.

[J Arcane]

Sorry, dude, my "feed the trolls" quota is filled for the day. Find someone else to play relativist devil's advocate with. It was never my favorite internet game to begin with.

[Ravenlock]

I've never in my recollection watched two otherwise intelligent people talk past each other so effectively.

Guys, walk away.

[violent]

Sorry, dude, my "feed the trolls" quota is filled for the day. Find someone else to play relativist devil's advocate with. It was never my favorite internet game to begin with.

Resorting to calling someone a troll. A greater sign of desperation I've not seen online. I like you, J. I genuinely think you're a smart guy. It kills me to know that most of the knowledge you have to give is lost on the fact that you deliver it like a bowl of potato salad.

No love lost.

[Libuke]

I wonder what the RO team is up to...I know they won one of those Unreal contests where the prize was a full Unreal tech license and I thought they were going to use it to create a new game.

They would be these (http://www.tripwireinteractive.com/)fellows. They put out killing floor and soon (sometimes this year I think) will be releasing Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad. Basically RO:2 I hope. They have also had their hand in a couple of other indy-ish games I think like The Ball.

[MagGnome]

So I guess by that logic Team Fortress is a console game as well?

Silliest argument yet this month.

[Voodoo]

So I guess by that logic Team Fortress is a console game as well?

Silliest argument yet this month.
I'm proud that I won last month. Thought I'd take a break. :D

[violent]

So I guess by that logic Team Fortress is a console game as well?

Silliest argument yet this month.

Considering that TF2 is currently an entirely different game on the PC than on consoles, I would agree it would be silly to consider it a multiplatform title even though technically, it is. Though it's obvious which is superior.

[MagGnome]

Voodoo, you win every month. :p

[burger]

So I guess by that logic Team Fortress is a console game as well?

Silliest argument yet this month.

I assume you're referring to Team Fortress 2? Team Fortress came out 8 years before Team Fortress 2 and wasn't even developed by Valve. It was a mod for Quake versus a stand alone title released by Valve and meant for the Source engine (which also debuted in Orange Box which was a cross platform compilation)

Other than that you're correct about it being silly :p

[violent]

Certainly not an argument made for public consumption.

[Voodoo]

Voodoo, you win every month. :p
I'm really running out of room to put all these huge plushy Gnomes.

[burger]

There was a time when PC gamers didn't have to argue over what games were theirs or not. Perhaps this argument is the truest indication as to what the state of PC gaming is.

[Voodoo]

There was a time when PC gamers didn't have to argue over what games were theirs or not. Perhaps this argument is the truest indication as to what the state of PC gaming is.
The same state it was from 1981 to about 1995 or 1996. Haven't settled on one or the other yet. The only difference is that people aren't playing MMO's via txt and the distribution model has changed. Other than that, welcome to 1985.

[violent]

There was a time when PC gamers didn't have to argue over what games were theirs or not. Perhaps this argument is the truest indication as to what the state of PC gaming is.

In my experience, PC iterations are almost always superior to their console brethren. It's a shitty arguing point though.

[burger]

The same state it was from 1981 to about 1995 or 1996. Haven't settled on one or the other yet. The only difference is that people aren't playing MMO's via txt and the distribution model has changed. Other than that, welcome to 1985.

The early 90's is when the PC was distinctly it's own gaming platform. I see very little similarities between now and then. That was during the shareware boom. The PC wasn't the dumping ground for cross platform titles.

If anything I wish this was the early 90's.

In my experience, PC iterations are almost always superior to their console brethren. It's a shitty arguing point though.

Pretty much for every FPS I will buy two copies. One for the Xbox 360 so I can game with my friends who don't have PCs and another copy on Steam so I can see the game played with maximum quality and resolution.

So yes I agree with you.

[violent]

If it were the 90's, Lucasarts and Sierra would be kicking out titles in the greatest genre this species knows: the point and click.

[burger]

If it were the 90's, Lucasarts and Sierra would be kicking out titles in the greatest genre this species knows: the point and click.

Additionally you had companies like id pushing the technological envelope with Commander Keen and Wolfenstein. Xwing and Dune are still two of my favorite games of all time. The original Alone in the Dark was quite groundbreaking at the time.

[violent]

Additionally you had companies like id pushing the technological envelope with Commander Keen and Wolfenstein. Xwing and Dune are still two of my favorite games of all time. The original Alone in the Dark was quite groundbreaking at the time.

True story: Growing up I once went to an EB when it was still Electronics Boutique and you could still get all your PC games in a box. I didn't know what I wanted but I overheard the salesman pitching this game to some guy. He was describing Alone in the Dark. I saw the box behind them, the last one, and I took it. Easily one of my favorite games of all time.

[Voodoo]

The early 90's is when the PC was distinctly it's own gaming platform. I see very little similarities between now and then. That was during the shareware boom. The PC wasn't the dumping ground for cross platform titles.

If anything I wish this was the early 90's.
There are so many striking similarities between PC Gaming now and then (prior to 1995/1996) that I'm surprised by how full 180 it has gone. I almost thought that period of PC Gaming had been long lost.

The shareware boom was more early 90's. I loved those dial-up BBS's. Considering that, what is happening now in the shift of development and gaming leaders on the PC Gaming platform, the similarities are unshakable. Quite remarkable really... And to think it all really started in British Columbia.

[burger]

There are so many striking similarities between PC Gaming now and then

Help me understand why by listing some of these similarities :p

[Voodoo]

Help me understand why by listing some of these similarities :p
Oh sure! That's easy. Throughout the 80's and early 90's, the PC Gaming platform was the epicenter of the Independent Development House (called Indie today). Namely, those development houses that didn't answer to a higher publisher and could do their own thing. As a result, many unique and great games came out of that time period. After a while, a great number of them combined or were absorbed by much larger companies. For example, many people cite their favorite games from this time period to be the games from Origin or Bullfrog.

At the time they were making those great games, they were what is considered now an Indie' gaming development house. Certainly, each of them has distribution partners (for example Sierra) but those partners wouldn't delve into what the developer was doing. This resulted in a great many unique and great games coming forth. Towards the end of the 90's, nearly all of these interdependent development houses had completely vanished from the PC Gaming scene.

It wasn't until the release of Sins of a Solar Empire in 2007 that the platform was shown, once again, that there is something special about an independent development house. Now, with the incredible surge of Indie' (independent development house), it is a striking similarity to how things once were on the PC Gaming platform. Instead of having to go to their individual BBS sites, though, to download their Shareware you just have to go to their various sites to get it.

Striking differences between now and then? The platform is also host to a lot of cross-platform large development house titles, something that didn't exist during the original period. Also, the games are more focused on online sales rather than retail. Oh, also, the Indie developers are a lot more involved with their audience than they were back in the 80's and early 90's.

Anyways, that's about the long & short of it for PC Gaming. Hopefully, this time, these Indie developers remain Indie and aren't absorbed.

[burger]

The reason I don't agree with any of that is back then the "indie" titles were the best the platform had to offer. Now a days the very best and biggest games are ports.

Back then there weren't any big publishers outside of companies like Sierra so you pretty much had to be an indie developer.

The early 90s gave birth to the modern powerhouses like Epic, id, valve, Bungie, UbiSoft, etc.

Meanwhile indie developers are making flash games that are lost amongst a sea of cross platform games.

It really isn't the same at all...back then those small games were at the epicenter of PC gaming...now they are amongst the fringe.

For most of us Steam is our window into PC gaming and surprise, surprise most of the games that get the most attention on Steam are cross platform titles.

[Vigil80]

The reason I don't agree with any of that is back then the "indie" titles were the best the platform had to offer. Now a days the very best and biggest games are ports.

Meanwhile indie developers are making flash games that are lost amongst a sea of cross platform games.

It really isn't the same at all...back then those small games were at the epicenter of PC gaming...now they are amongst the fringe.

For most of us Steam is our window into PC gaming and surprise, surprise most of the games that get the most attention on Steam are cross platform titles.
I have read the new parts of this thread three or four times, and honestly, I have no idea what's even being argued in most of it. But I have to step in and pick on you for these parts, as I find them patently untrue. "Very best" is a descriptor that is heavily opinion; there is a long list of indie games that have received significant attention and acclaim. As for "biggest," it's true that many of the indie houses don't have the mountains of marketing dollars to reach EA or Activision numbers, but some of the most closely followed stories on PC lately have been those of Minecraft, Torchlight, Elemental (for better or worse), the indie bundles, and so on.

As for developers merely making fringe flash games, have you played some of these? It's a trap that I admit to nearly falling into once or twice last year during the occasional bad mood. But, there are some whole, fulfilling, and surprisingly enough, fun experiences not attached to a megacorp.

One can't talk about PC gaming and be taken seriously, in my opinion, without talking about indie titles. That doesn't sound like being "lost in a sea" of other releases. Meanwhile, the multiplatform games that fail to take advantage of the finer points of the PC - the lazier ports, if you like - are met with lukewarm attitudes if not outright derision.

[Ravenlock]

If you think the AAA development houses are doing well I think you're living with your head in the sand. (Which, hey, don't feel bad, so are they.)

The "King of the Hill" development atmosphere leads to a single king and a whole lot of dead bodies - and in this case even the king isn't doing well. The most recent post over on Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/) strikes me as very apropos.

I enjoy lots of AAA titles, but the things that have gotten me the most excited on the PC over the last several years have consistently come from small, independent teams. I am far from alone in that.

[Voodoo]

There are others that enjoy a discussion of semantics but I'm not one of them. Happily, it is enough for me that Brad Wardell agrees. The differences you describe I also attend to in my description. Beyond this, simple semantics and I am bored of having semantic arguments on CoG.

Hello, Vigil and Raven. :) Have fun.

[digitalErich]

They would be these (http://www.tripwireinteractive.com/)fellows. They put out killing floor and soon (sometimes this year I think) will be releasing Red Orchestra: Heroes of Stalingrad. Basically RO:2 I hope. They have also had their hand in a couple of other indy-ish games I think like The Ball.

Oh yeah Tripwire is their name...I just found think link on their site. It looks like they did brand it RO2 after all. Crysis2, BF3, and now RO2...2011 is a great year for PC shooters.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/35450/

[J Arcane]

If you think the AAA development houses are doing well I think you're living with your head in the sand. (Which, hey, don't feel bad, so are they.)

The "King of the Hill" development atmosphere leads to a single king and a whole lot of dead bodies - and in this case even the king isn't doing well. The most recent post over on Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/) strikes me as very apropos.

I enjoy lots of AAA titles, but the things that have gotten me the most excited on the PC over the last several years have consistently come from small, independent teams. I am far from alone in that.
That post is pretty smart.

Bottom line, the industry has grown larger than the enthusiast base it was founded on. But big companies, even having abandoned the PC, are still basically taking the same market and pricing strategies.

$60 is what you charge for something every nerd is gonna want. It's the kind of pricing you see in markets like miniature games and tabletop RPGs.

It's not the kind of thing you charge if you want the general public to actually play your shit. Sure, casual sports gamers keep ponying up $60 a year for Madden, but then they aren't buying anything else from you for the rest of the year.

Steam, the App Store, the Android Market, the indie bundles, GOG, all are pointing to the rising popularity of game spaces where you don't have to sell a kidney to buy a game.

And it is especially stupid in the mobile space. I honestly can't see spending 40 bucks for a 3DS or PSP2 game when I can buy Galaxy on Fire 2 for my iPad for $10. If they can pull a game that is as near to AAA as handheld games ever get and put it out for 1/4 the price, then why in hell can't DS developers?

Oh yeah, that's right, it's because they're spending like crazy and going through half a dozen middle men that all want their cut. At least with the App Store you only pay 30%. That may sound absurd, but it's a lot better royalty rate than you'll get from Activision or EA. If you even get one.

[Dukefrukem]

Pretty much for every FPS I will buy two copies. One for the Xbox 360 so I can game with my friends who don't have PCs and another copy on Steam so I can see the game played with maximum quality and resolution.

So yes I agree with you.

God what a waste of money....

[Dukefrukem]

I have read the new parts of this thread three or four times, and honestly, I have no idea what's even being argued in most of it. But I have to step in and pick on you for these parts, as I find them patently untrue. "Very best" is a descriptor that is heavily opinion; there is a long list of indie games that have received significant attention and acclaim. As for "biggest," it's true that many of the indie houses don't have the mountains of marketing dollars to reach EA or Activision numbers, but some of the most closely followed stories on PC lately have been those of Minecraft, Torchlight, Elemental (for better or worse), the indie bundles, and so on.

As for developers merely making fringe flash games, have you played some of these? It's a trap that I admit to nearly falling into once or twice last year during the occasional bad mood. But, there are some whole, fulfilling, and surprisingly enough, fun experiences not attached to a megacorp.

One can't talk about PC gaming and be taken seriously, in my opinion, without talking about indie titles. That doesn't sound like being "lost in a sea" of other releases. Meanwhile, the multiplatform games that fail to take advantage of the finer points of the PC - the lazier ports, if you like - are met with lukewarm attitudes if not outright derision.

This so this .. so this and this again.

[roboninja]

God what a waste of money....

I guess he can always resell the console one after his friends have stopped playing. For now, anyway.

[Dukefrukem]

I guess he can always resell the console one after his friends have stopped playing. For now, anyway.

I suppose. In fact, after I posted that I realized I do the same thing sometimes. Buy on console, goozex it, buy it on steam when it's $10... Meh

But never just to play with my friends. Fuck them. I buy on the platform of my choice. The only FPS I'd buy on console are the ones that aren't available on PC.

[MagGnome]

I assume you're referring to Team Fortress 2? Team Fortress came out 8 years before Team Fortress 2 and wasn't even developed by Valve. It was a mod for Quake versus a stand alone title released by Valve and meant for the Source engine (which also debuted in Orange Box which was a cross platform compilation)

Other than that you're correct about it being silly :p

Are you kidding me? Thanks for the history lesson. I really miss the eyeroll smiley.


There was a time when PC gamers didn't have to argue over what games were theirs or not. Perhaps this argument is the truest indication as to what the state of PC gaming is.

You seem to be arguing more than anyone else in this thread. PC gaming is doing great right now. The indie scene is especially kick-ass. At this rate I will never run out of fun/awesome/interesting/unique PC games to play.

[MagGnome]

It wasn't until the release of Sins of a Solar Empire in 2007 that the platform was shown, once again, that there is something special about an independent development house.

Sins of a Solar Empire was such a huge success story that I'm surprised it isn't cited more often. The game sold over 500,000 copies with almost no marketing. That's huge! I realize today that the big boys in gaming are jaded by stuff like Call of Duty selling 5+ million copies, but 500,000 is nothing to sneeze at.

Then of course there's Minecraft, which is such an egregious example that I'm sure the rest of the development community is scrambling to duplicate it. :p

[burger]

Are you kidding me? Thanks for the history lesson. I really miss the eyeroll smiley..

You're a strange one...you refer to the wrong game but then get all snippy when you're corrected. If you don't want a history lesson then a) refer to the correct game and b) don't act is if it proves an unrelated point. If you want people to understand what you're saying then use the correct names and terminology and don't flip out when they get confused.

[MagGnome]

If you think the AAA development houses are doing well I think you're living with your head in the sand. (Which, hey, don't feel bad, so are they.)

The "King of the Hill" development atmosphere leads to a single king and a whole lot of dead bodies - and in this case even the king isn't doing well. The most recent post over on Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/) strikes me as very apropos.

I enjoy lots of AAA titles, but the things that have gotten me the most excited on the PC over the last several years have consistently come from small, independent teams. I am far from alone in that.

Sorry for the triple post, but this bears repeating. The big publishers are always on the brink of financial ruin. They rely on one or two big games a year to make up for all of the other crap they shove out. If one of those big games underperforms, that publisher might just go belly up.

Of course many of the indie studios are in tenuous positions as well, but it's completely false to assert that the big publishers are the only ones doing well and putting out product worth playing.

[MagGnome]

You're a strange one...you refer to the wrong game but then get all snippy when you're corrected. If you don't want a history lesson then a) refer to the correct game and b) don't act is if it proves an unrelated point.

I referred to the correct game. Anyone who isn't completely anal knew EXACTLY which game I was referring to. Everyone I know says that they are going to play "Team Fortress". I'll be sure to specify next time so that you don't clap your hands with glee at the chance to correct someone for such a minor infraction. ;)

[Dukefrukem]

PC Game Revenue up 19% (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/03/01/pc-is-strong-pc-games-revenue-up-20/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+RockPaperShotgun+(Rock,+Paper,+ Shotgun))

[Voodoo]

This part is interesting...

Of that money more than a quarter came from China alone, responsible for $4.8bn. But then they also have a fifth of the population of the planet living there, so that’s about right, really. Another 7.3bn, according to some rugged chap called Alec Meer on Games Industry, came from the UK, US, Germany, Korea and Japan. Which is an increase of 19%.

I'm very surprised by China. I have noticed A LOT of the downloads for the Immortal Machines podcast are Chinese. Pretty cool.

[Savok]

Well they are the next super power, about time they acted like it.

[TheKeck]

You're a strange one...you refer to the wrong game but then get all snippy when you're corrected. If you don't want a history lesson then a) refer to the correct game and b) don't act is if it proves an unrelated point. If you want people to understand what you're saying then use the correct names and terminology and don't flip out when they get confused.

"We went and saw Tron this weekend."

"I assume you mean Tron: Legacy. Tron came out 29 years ago."

[Dukefrukem]

Perhaps I just haven't been paying close attention, but today is the first day I've seen total steam users eclipse 4 million gamers "online". It's usually around 2 million and during the nights it gets into the upper 3 million. Steam continues to grow

[MagGnome]

Yep, Steam is doing better than ever.

[EternalGamer]

Yep, Steam is doing better than ever.

Steam is pretty awesome and I think it is solving a lot of problems that kept console centric gamers away from PC gaming for a long time.

I see one big, huge problem for PC games at the moment though: there is no Dark Souls on PC.

[Purple Santa]

Yep, Steam is doing better than ever.

I really thought you would go for your patented "but PC gaming is dead". Nice restraint.

OT, I love Steam. I don't do much PC gaming yet but Steam was the reason for me trying and staying (and Mags whispering in my ear about great games I need to play)

[CES]

Steam is the single best thing for PC gaming in years but the software itself is still crap. It has a nice recurring bug where you have to be online before it will start in offline mode and has a lot of load issues in the online mode.

[MagGnome]

I see one big, huge problem for PC games at the moment though: there is no Dark Souls on PC.

That's one game I really wish was on the PC.


Steam is the single best thing for PC gaming in years but the software itself is still crap. It has a nice recurring bug where you have to be online before it will start in offline mode and has a lot of load issues in the online mode.

The last few versions have a bug with the gifting process as well. When you open a gift it gives you an error message...and then you get the gift anyway.

It's not perfect, but it's the best DD store out there. Steam and Good Old Games get nearly all of my gaming dollars.

[SilentScreams]

Steam is far from perfect, but I can forgive its flaws because through it, I've played lots of great games that I'd probably have never touched otherwise. Steam sales are awesome.

PC gaming has never been in danger though. You'll always have the crazies who insist it's dying, but they're no more credible than a dude in the high street with a sandwich board on claiming that "the end is nigh".
I mean, how long can something be "dying" for before you just have to admit that it's not going to? :)

[Savok]

I'd actually go so far as to say console gaming is in trouble. It's pretty much out of advantages at this point. More expensive, needs the disc in the tray, an hour punching in DLC codes to get the rest of the game you just bought, patches, then massive drops in fps because its 6 year old hardware is being pushed too far. All on an inferior control system.

[Entropy]

I'd actually go so far as to say console gaming is in trouble. It's pretty much out of advantages at this point. More expensive, needs the disc in the tray, an hour punching in DLC codes to get the rest of the game you just bought, patches, then massive drops in fps because its 6 year old hardware is being pushed too far. All on an inferior control system.

More expensive

The last video card I bought cost more than a 360 or a PS3.

needs the disc in the tray.

XBLA doesn't. Some of my all time favorite games from this generation don't require a disc. Geometry Wars 1 and 2. Pac-Man CE.

an hour punching in DLC codes to get the rest of the game you just bought

you mean 60 seconds don't you? ;)

patches

PC games require patching.

then massive drops in fps because its 6 year old hardware is being pushed too far.

Rage gets 60fps and looks incredible. Other games such as Gears of War 3 and Crysis 2 are jaw droppingly gorgeous.

All on an inferior control system.

I will give you this...but the absence of a keyboard and mouse aren't enough to kill consoles and there's nothing about the platform that precludes them.

In 2 years we'll have an all new console cycle...consoles aren't in trouble...we're simply at the end of the current cycle.

[Savok]

Batman I had 6 separate fucking codes that all had to individually download. Also I think you need glasses.

[Ravenlock]

The last video card I bought cost more than a 360 or a PS3.

Fair, but the last video card I bought cost barely $100 and can outperform a 360/PS3 without breaking a sweat. (GTX460). If you wait for the end of a console cycle it isn't hard to beat the consoles black and blue without spending much money.

[Voodoo]

Fair, but the last video card I bought cost barely $100 and can outperform a 360/PS3 without breaking a sweat. (GTX460). If you wait for the end of a console cycle it isn't hard to beat the consoles black and blue without spending much money.
Yup! And then there are people like me that continually under spend their console counterparts no matter what part of the cycle they happen to be in. :)

[MagGnome]

The only disadvantage the PC has is the ease of web-browsing. It's far too easy for me to sit down and spend hours on Youtube, COG, Facebook, etc. when I meant to do a little gaming.

That's the one "downside" to gaming on the PC, if you can call it a downside.

[Panthera]

PC games require patching.

I haven't had to manually patch a PC game in years. I have to install a patch nearly every time I sit down in front of my PS3 or 360.

[CES]

The only disadvantage the PC has is the ease of web-browsing. It's far too easy for me to sit down and spend hours on Youtube, COG, Facebook, etc. when I meant to do a little gaming.

That's the one "downside" to gaming on the PC, if you can call it a downside.

Another is the sheer variety of hardware on the platform. You can't build for it all without causing some sort of issue somewhere along the way. Say what you like about unified architecture but designers only need to take one specific setup into account than a couple dozen combinations of processor and graphics card.

I think I use my wired 360 controller for the PC more than the 360 now, it's just superior in terms of comfort and useability for driving-focused games like GTAIV (carrying on the fine tradition of GTA games having inferior KB/M support) and Zombie Driver.

[Entropy]

I haven't had to manually patch a PC game in years. I have to install a patch nearly every time I sit down in front of my PS3 or 360.

I guess we can add "pushing the green button" to our list of first world problems :p

[MagGnome]

I haven't had to manually patch a PC game in years. I have to install a patch nearly every time I sit down in front of my PS3 or 360.

Patching on Steam is the most seamless of any system I've used.

[Ravenlock]

I guess we can add "pushing the green button" to our list of first world problems :p

That's fair, but there is a tangible difference between a system that updates your game in the background so that when you have a half hour to play you can actually play, vs. a system that requires you to spend the first third of that half hour downloading and installing an update.

Or, from what I understand of the PS3, sometimes that whole half hour and more. ;)

[biosc1]

I haven't had to manually patch a PC game in years. I have to install a patch nearly every time I sit down in front of my PS3 or 360.

Only time one has to manually patch a PC game these days is when you are patching it with a MOD to make the game even more awesome (Morrowind/Oblivion/Crysis)

[Panthera]

That's fair, but there is a tangible difference between a system that updates your game in the background so that when you have a half hour to play you can actually play, vs. a system that requires you to spend the first third of that half hour downloading and installing an update.

Or, from what I understand of the PS3, sometimes that whole half hour and more. ;)

Yeah, it's better now that I have a faster connection, but those PS3 updates are a bit much. It's not just the time it takes, though - the latest patches for Modnation Racers and Uncharted 2 cause the game to fail to start entirely for me. I had to delete the patches to play.

[biosc1]

I don't fire up my PS3 often and, when I do, I know I have to spend 30 minutes going through the OS update process...then the game itself may have an update.

I need to get in the habit of just turning it on and updating it hours before I know I have time to game.

[MagGnome]

The consoles force users to patch right that second, which is annoying.

[Ghostbear]

This doesn't need to be a "better than" conversation. The list recently mentioned by savok is basically saying that the advantages Consoles once had are disappearing. They now do the same things as PCs.

[Savok]

Hooray someone can read.

[muddi900]

I often joke with my brother tgat the time it would take to patch a game on his PS3, I can walk to the store, buy a 360 and start playing the same game.

Last night Batman had no sound because there was a problem with the install. Say what now?