No Country for Female Leads?

[wyeast]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4073/4862886277_69146ee65b_o.jpg
Image Source: Miramax Films


Yesterday, the folks at Gamasutra released a report (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29719/InDepth_No_Female_Heroes_At_Activision.php) accounting the tale of a little Treyarch project called "Black Lotus". Supposedly inspired by Hong Kong Cinematic Style, the project's lead character was based off of Lucy Liu's portrayals in films such as "Charlie's Angels" and "Kill Bill".

According to Gamasutra's sources, the Black Lotus project was quashed under pressure by Activision due to "focus group" testing indicating that female roles did not sell well in the marketplace.

Their report goes on to say the project was under pressure to reassemble under the True Crime franchise, indicating that True Crime: Hong Kong (now under United Front's umbrella) is the old Black Lotus project now with a male lead.

In 2007, we're told the publisher even went so far as to change the protagonist in a new concept -- the project that would become True Crime 3 -- from a female to a male, on the rationale that the female wouldn't move software units.

In their response to the report, Activision states "The company does not have a policy of telling its studios what game content they can develop, nor has the company told any of its studios that they cannot develop games with female lead characters."

What say you? Do you want to play as a girl? Does it matter? How much reliance should publishers and developers put into focus group testing to determine the path of creativity?

Source: Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/29719/InDepth_No_Female_Heroes_At_Activision.php) via Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2010-08-05-activision-denies-lose-the-chick-report-article)

[Iron Past]

The company does not have a policy of telling its studios what game content they can develop...

Ahahahahahahaha! I can smell that bullshit from the moon! And wouldn't that just be confusing the reason a game doesn't sell well? Maybe games with female leads don't sell well because there are hardly any made, and the ones there are aren't very good. Way to extrapolate data in such a stupid way, Activision.

[Karmakin]

This doesn't surprise me at all, to be honest. Now, I suspect that most people here would have no problem with female leads. But when you get into the general public, they have a huge problem with it. It's the essential choadness of the game-playing community at large.

[Krispy]

I would have thought WoW showed that men like looking at hot avatar butts for hours.

[Jason]

Until Eidos screwed up the Tomb Raider series, they sold very well. Exception to the rule or just the best of the female lead games?

[johnperkins21]

I think Eidos pretty much proved that theory wrong when they released a little game called Tomb Raider. There's also the Metroid example, but we didn't know she was a girl until the end of the first game, so I don't count that one.

I believe that it's likely more difficult to create a game with a female lead that would actually appeal to male and female gamers equally, but if the game and story are good, the gender of the lead should make no difference. Heck, how many of us rolled a female Shepard in Mass Effect? And didn't Bayonetta sell pretty well? I don't think there are enough games with female leads to really make a decision at this point, and the ones that do have them seem to do just fine.

[JayVe]

Focus groups are complete bunk for stuff like this.

Here is an excellent article concerning why focus groups are no good (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/26/the-perils-of-introspection/) for determining the overall quality of a thing. I've been in more than a dozen focus groups, and find them hysterical. It is also SUPER-easy to change the entire thoughts of a herd of people in a focus group with a few well-placed words. 11 people in a room can swing from one side of an issue to another in SECONDS. Then the folks behind the mirror run with whatever 'data' they have. I get paid for it too.

and a quote:
When “Titanic” earned its Oscars, some people were saying it might just be the greatest film ever made. Now, it’s considered good but schmaltzy, a fine film, but decidedly melodramatic. What will people think in 100 years?

It would be wise to remember many of the works we now consider classics were in their time critically panned.

Oh, and I LOVE Metroid! ;-)

[DoctorFinger]

Shit. Next thing you know they'll be letting wimmin actually play video games!

[Krispy]

It would be wise to remember many of the works we now consider classics were in their time critically panned.

This haunts Terry Gilliam to no end.

[J Arcane]

Heck, how many of us rolled a female Shepard in Mass Effect?

I maintain, and will forever do so, that FemShep was the best Shep. The voice work is better, the character is better, she's frankly one of the best female characters in a game. FemShep for life.

Ms. Alexander has a follow up on her blog as well, here: http://sexyvideogameland.blogspot.com/2010/08/privilege.html

I found this bit particularly interesting:

The timing of my article is unfortunate with recent revelations that CEO Bobby Kotick preferred to spend over a million dollars in legal fees to "destroy" one of his employees who accused another of sexual harassment, rather than settle with her for much less.

[JayVe]

This haunts Terry Gilliam to no end.

I was just telling my boss he should watch Brazil. :D

[ElektroDragon]

AntiVision are not only idiots, they're now discriminatory idiots who believe their audience consists primarily of 9 year olds who think girls have cooties. Although given the rehashed trash comic book movie tie-in junk they peddle, they might have a point there.

Female leads are refreshing. I like Tomb Raider, Bayonetta, Mirror's Edge, Kameo, and Heavenly Sword as much as any other games in those genres. Even Bullet Witch and X-Blades would have been great if the rest of the game didn't suck.

Luckily, it seems the days of the clueless AAA publisher are numbered.

[Scull]

The biggest problem with female leads is simply that there aren't many games with a strong female lead, and those few games that do feature a female lead have an even smaller percentage of good games. One of my all time favorite games with a female lead is No One Lives Forever. I also love Metroid and enjoyed the first 2 Tomb raider games. No other good games with female leads comes readily to mind. Bayonetta was merely ok, but I didn't really like the lead.

[Karmakin]

To go into a bit more depth, not all characters are the same, and that goes for male or female characters. The way I'd classify them is "Hot" and "Cold". A Cold character is more of a muted character. Mostly acts via actions, is rather unemotional etc. Some examples of that are Master Chief, Solid Snake, Samus Aran, Lara Croft, Link, etc. On the other end of the spectrum are Hot characters. These are characters that act a lot more on vocalized emotion, and are a lot outward and obvious with the intended emotional response. See, Dante (from DMC), Viewtiful Joe, Bayonetta (see a pattern here?), Travis Touchdown, Kratos and so on.

Notice one thing here. Cold characters tend to be better received than Hot characters. Especially for female characters. The proof I'd give is Tomb Raider. When the movie came out, Jolie played Lara Croft SCORCHING hot. (I'm talking about attitude, not looks of course). Some people loved it, a lot of people hated it. And after that the series never really recovered, because Croft was now a hot character in people's eyes.

Speaking for myself, give me a good hot character any day of the week. But I make no illusions that I'm in the majority. It's definitely a minority view (But probably not a minority view here)

[Vandabo]

Just another reason to hate focus groups.

I also liked femaled Shepard significantly better.

[Savok]

I maintain, and will forever do so, that FemShep was the best Shep. The voice work is better, the character is better, she's frankly one of the best female characters in a game. FemShep for life.
I've yet to meet a person who prefers plank of wood male Shepard.

Too our minds, and I expect everyone else's, Shepard is a woman, and probably the best female lead of this generation. I almost feel angry whenever I see promo material with some bald space marine asshole hanging around mucking up things.

And really that's the problem, all the best female leads end up defaulted to male officially because those games let you choose and some marketing asshole gets to make the decision. That just leaves all these terrible half fucking porn games with the "female only" ones.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I've yet to meet a person who prefers plank of wood male Shepard.

I seriously liked Male Shepard. Don't get me wrong, Mark Meer couldn't voice act his way out of a box, but FemShep's voice just grated on me. Sounded like she had that hoarse voice you get when you smoke one too many cigarettes.

That's not to say I don't like female leads, and Activision are being total douchebags here.

[nabokovfan87]

Just more proof that activision is living in the past and has thier heads so far up their ass all they can smell is thier lunch and can't get past it.

[Savok]

Thankfully no one else agrees (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0354937/)

[Kelegacy]

Kudos to Activision. Bitches ain't nothin but hos and tricks.

[nabokovfan87]

Kudos to Activision. Bitches ain't nothin but hos and tricks.

You're kidding right?

[Vigil80]

Of course he is. If it isn't crude "humor," it isn't Kelegacy.

Yes, Activision is clueless. I think it was IGC's Jeremy who said he hates to see things market tested into a grey paste, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Focus groups are a thing of the past, anyway. With today's connectivity, there's no excuse for not getting your feedback straight from customers, anyway.

Also, I prefer Male Shep, and I think Mark Meer gets unjustly hated on.

[Inspector Fowler]

I think the problem for me is that, as I have mentioned, I play games to role play, and I don't typically want to be a girl.

That said, the other half is that too many "strong" female characters are just sluts in revealing outfits who overcompensate for not being a male character by being over sexualized and aggressive. My male characters do not dress as Chippendale's dancers, why should the females be strippers?

You give me a "real" female character, and I'd enjoy playing a game as her. For example - give me Renee Montoya from the Gotham Central comic series. Smart and dedicated. Somebody I can respect.

[wyeast]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4114/4863377173_fa960e192b.jpg

Ok, she's barefoot. But she ain't taking more off. :)

(edit: Disclaimer - Yes, I know there's a fair amount of fanservice/fanfic out there proving me wrong. I don't need to be reminded of it. :p)

[Savok]

Hehe, one of the most loved games of all time, female lead.

Female Shepard reminds me a lot of Renee actually, Hale's voice giving her that sense of strength. She's The Question now you know, took over from Vic Sage when he passed away.

[Khrymsyn]

Never played as FemShep

Take that!

[Vigil80]

(edit: Disclaimer - Yes, I know there's a fair amount of fanservice/fanfic out there proving me wrong. I don't need to be reminded of it. :p)
No, I think you do.
http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/6707/alyxandchellbykingaby.jpg

[johnperkins21]

That said, the other half is that too many "strong" female characters are just sluts in revealing outfits who overcompensate for not being a male character by being over sexualized and aggressive. My male characters do not dress as Chippendale's dancers, why should the females be strippers?

You give me a "real" female character, and I'd enjoy playing a game as her. For example - give me Renee Montoya from the Gotham Central comic series. Smart and dedicated. Somebody I can respect.

I agree with this to a point, but not all female characters are depicted that way. Jade from Beyond Good and Evil definitely was not, and she was a "strong" female character. I also think Elena Fisher from the Uncharted series is represented as a well-developed female character that isn't sexually objectified (apart from the cliff climbing scene in the second game). There's also the previously mentioned female Shepard.

There are certainly plenty of examples where women are purely sex symbols, but I don't think it's quite as bad as some people make it out to be (not you necessarily). And on the other side, most male lead characters are also designed to be attractive, even if they're not prancing around in their heart-print boxers.

[Savok]

A lot of me wishes that was canon....

[Kelegacy]

I think the problem for me is that, as I have mentioned, I play games to role play, and I don't typically want to be a girl.


Same. When I play games and am given the option, I almost always pick the male. And when I make my own characters in RPGs, I'm never a woman. Come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER selected a female as my avatar in-game in RPGs.

I think it has to do with me being a dude mostly.

[Savok]

You guys are missing out on the different perspective it offers, also in the case of Mass Effect, actual joy.

Plus sometimes it's nice to feel pretty...

[opsin]

Add to this the fact that Bobby Kotick just lost a court case that was centred around a sexual harassment charge (alas not by him, but he co-owned the jet involved in the story and had to pay out about $1million in the end), and it doesn't shock me that Activision are chauvinist cockbags.
At least they brought IW to their knees and they only have two real sources of income. Unfortunately one of those is Blizzard and SC2 will have brought in a shitton more cash. Sigh.

[DoctorFinger]

I really don't think it's chauvinism so much as grossly underestimating the market. They're not doing this because they hate women, they're doing it because they think their customers hate women.

[Generation ABXY]

What say you? Do you want to play as a girl? Does it matter?

Given the choice - you know, with character creators in games like The Elder Scrolls - I'll usually play as a guy, but, no, it doesn't really matter to me. I think I can safely say the next GTA game'll end up on my shelf regardless of the main's gender.

[Kelegacy]

We also forget how utterly unrealistic it is to have a woman as lead role in many games, unless it's Cooking Mama or something. Or a Barefoot 'N' Pregnant simulator. A woman holding a gun and getting dirty? Puh-leeze. She'd probably hold it backwards and she'd DEFINITELY need a man "sidekick" to help her every step of the way...meaning, do EVERYTHING for her, but she'd take all the credit at the end for saving the world.

[Widgetcraft]

I dunno why Nintendo keeps investing in these fucking Metroid games; don't they know that you need a strong male lead for that shit?

[Kelegacy]

I dunno why Nintendo keeps investing in these fucking Metroid games; don't they know that you need a strong male lead for that shit?

She's hidden within a masculine suit so we can't see her femaleness. That's how all women should be -- hidden away from public view, and their skin only for show for their husbands when the lights are off and only every fortnight. Otherwise, they'll become promiscuous.

[J Arcane]

I seriously liked Male Shepard. Don't get me wrong, Mark Meer couldn't voice act his way out of a box, but FemShep's voice just grated on me. Sounded like she had that hoarse voice you get when you smoke one too many cigarettes.
But that's one of the things I liked. She's a strong, military woman, a marine. She should be a bit brusque, and have a voice befitting such a role. I like that they didn't wuss out on that and make her Generic Sexy Female Voice #4.

Hehe, one of the most loved games of all time, female lead.

Female Shepard reminds me a lot of Renee actually, Hale's voice giving her that sense of strength. She's The Question now you know, took over from Vic Sage when he passed away.
Exactly. Shephard sounds like a woman who gets things
I really don't think it's chauvinism so much as grossly underestimating the market. They're not doing this because they hate women, they're doing it because they think their customers hate women.

Well, other than trying to "destroy" a woman for the crime of defending herself from sexual harassment, you mean?

[JRR006]

I keep a pretty even split between male and female avatars in MMOs and RPGs. For established characters, if they are well-written I'm going to identify with them, regardless of their gender. Make them an interesting human being and I'm set.

As long as we're having the fem/male Shepard discussion again, I've got no problem with male Shepard! I kinda like him. I think Mark Meer's performance really improved in ME2. Not that he can hold a candle to Jennifer Hale, but the voice acting was a step up from the first game. I do think it's stupid though that female Shepard never gets represented in any of the promotional material.

[roboninja]

Activision does something stupid, news at 11.

I agree that I tend to play a male role when given a choice, but this is not a hard & fast rule. It also does not bother me in the least if the character is female with no choice given.

[Inspector Fowler]

Another aspect is that it becomes the focus. Look at Danica Patrick. A talented rookie driver who gets a MOUNTAIN made out of what she does because she's a chick in a "man's" world.

I guess to me it's also because I work in a career with some physically competent women - as in, they can do the "video game" shit, beating ass, shooting people, etc. But the reason they're awesome is because to them it's not about "girl power", it's just about being really good at their job.

Many video games depict the female character as having to somehow be more awesome or something because she's a chick. It's like Vasquez in Aliens - yeah, she's cool, but she isn't just "one of the guys", she's like the ultra-guy - more trash-talking, more pull-ups, etc. That's a character no-no for me.

I think this will change over time. As story telling in games becomes stronger and more mature, realistic female characters will become leads more often.

I also don't want it to go too far, though. For example, Mafia II - that game shouldn't offer me the choice of a female lead, because it wouldn't lend credibility to the world they're mimicking. The Mafia, to my knowledge, doesn't really use "button women" very often (I'm sure there are exceptions, I'm talking 99% of the time). I used to feel the same way when it gave me female teammates in the original Ghost Recon - the game was so realistic except for that. The day a female is allowed into a Spec Ops unit and allowed to engage in combat, throw them in a "realistic" military sim.

But Dead Rising II? Yeah, I think a woman willing to go 100% to save her kid is entirely realistic. Virtually any cop story set after 1970? Absolutely. In fact, you could create some interesting storytelling by setting it in the days when female cops were just starting to make their mark. A racing game? Yeah, at least one of the best rally drivers in history was a woman.

I guess for me the point is that often times the female-ness of the character becomes the point. "See, we have girls in our game too!!!!!!" If it doesn't lend to the world you've created, why put it in? But on the other hand, if it is a normal addition to that world, you probably owe it to your audience to include it.

[OldJadedGamer]

Same. When I play games and am given the option, I almost always pick the male. And when I make my own characters in RPGs, I'm never a woman. Come to think of it, I don't think I've EVER selected a female as my avatar in-game in RPGs.

I think it has to do with me being a dude mostly.

I like to pick girl characters when greifing others like in Playstation Home. Then it's just funny.

[Yeti2005]

I really believe there's an audience for a female lead in a video game (my wife is one example of someone who gravitates towards female leads in a game). I wonder if the video game industry is just taking it's lead from Hollywood? There's very few "action" movies with women leads.

[JRR006]

I also don't want it to go too far, though. For example, Mafia II - that game shouldn't offer me the choice of a female lead, because it wouldn't lend credibility to the world they're mimicking. The Mafia, to my knowledge, doesn't really use "button women" very often (I'm sure there are exceptions, I'm talking 99% of the time). I used to feel the same way when it gave me female teammates in the original Ghost Recon - the game was so realistic except for that. The day a female is allowed into a Spec Ops unit and allowed to engage in combat, throw them in a "realistic" military sim.


This is interesting. I find that I largely agree, if we're judging a story with realism as the primary metric. However, the female gamer who wants to enjoy escapism in those settings, is it prerequisite that she be able to identify herself with a male character even if she would prefer a female one? There are female gamers who are drawn to female avatars almost exclusively, just as some male gamers don't use avatars of the opposite gender.

This is an amazing time for this subject to come up, as I've got family visiting. My young female cousin has been gaming with her father and with me since she's been four (she's ten now). She likes Rose in the Sonic franchise and likes playing as Princess Peach. She used to like Tomb Raider because it was the "girl game". She always makes her sackperson into a girl, etc. Maybe it's a phase of development and she'll learn to identify with male characters. Depending on what she gets into when she's older, she may have to. I wonder sometimes if that's completely fair to her? If that makes sense. I guess it is something of a luxury, a lot of media being made by men for men, and never having to struggle to identify with the characters.

Looking at my library, it's a rare PC game I own that doesn't allow for me to be a female avatar if I so choose. They're mostly RPGs and MMOs or puzzle games where I'm a little blob of protoplasm. Console games are a different story: Halo, Alan Wake, Overlord, Super Mario Galaxy, Metal Gear, Bioshock, Assassin's Creed, Crackdown (without the female agent DLC)... she's a little young for most of those, but if she intends to be a mainstream gamer (*touches wood*) she'll have to learn to play as a male character, regardless of whether she wants to or not. I guess she can always choose the pink armour in Halo matches, but she'd probably get called a fag? That makes me uncomfortable.

I don't mean to suggest that those games don't have interesting female characters, but the player's agency and actions are routed through the avatar of a male. Girls need escapism too, but going by my (admittedly non-universally-representative) library, that often involves donning the guise of a man. That doesn't seem entirely fair, realism be damned.

Apologies for the wall o'text.

[Farsight]

When gender 'matters' to the story of a game (like Bioware titles), I play a male. When gender doesn't matter (MMOs and games w/ little story), I tend to pick a female.

The funniest thing about this story is that Activision thinks they can pull off such an obvious lie. Publishers constantly interfere in the creative direction of games. All of them. As is their right - it's their money footing the bill.

And when it comes to the idea that a female lead is riskier than a male lead... well, that's probably true. Females leads have a harder time selling movies, why wouldn't it be the case in a more masculine market like games (especially an action shooter like True Crime)?

Gender roles get switched all the time in films and TV, it's only logical that it would happen in games as well. The difference is that film studios aren't arrogant or dim enough to try lying about it.

[Chris_D]

Huh, I often play as female characters, in Mass Effect, Dragon Age... oh wait. Of course there's Persona 3 Portable too!

[Pale Ale]

Many video games depict the female character as having to somehow be more awesome or something because she's a chick. It's like Vasquez in Aliens - yeah, she's cool, but she isn't just "one of the guys", she's like the ultra-guy - more trash-talking, more pull-ups, etc. That's a character no-no for me.



Close, but I think your analogy falls.. Vasquez is Ensemble Cast, she's more a of a broken statue to show how Ripley can be both feminine and masculine. Though I will give the point, a female character usually has to show she's better than a man at anything.



Something I've been thinking about since this morning, the Female Protagonist was going to be in a True Crime game right? Can you actually have a stupid female protagonist in game?

[Inspector Fowler]

Let me also propose this:

Video games are often about role playing. And men and women have very different "objectives" in their role playing.

This is why male gamers often lament that they cannot find a female "gamer". My wife plays Sims 3, Portal, and other games. But she does not fantasize about the same things I do, so she is not likely to hop on Bad Company 2 with me. Many girls play video games but they don't enjoy playing Gears of War, etc (there are definite exceptions and I speak here of the majority of men or women).

Men fantasize about overcoming challenges with force, strength, violence, etc. Role-playing for boys/men often involves being the baddest mother fucker in the room. When little boys play games there is almost always a winner. They compete, and somebody loses. I take literal pleasure in defeating somebody in Bad Company 2 - the knowledge that maybe, just maybe, some dude in Maine is twisting his controller in anger is absolutely thrilling to me.

When little girls play together they usually cooperate. They don't, as a general rule, play games where only one girl will win and the others will lose. This is why my wife will play any co-op game with me (as long as there isn't killing) but she will never, ever play a competitive game with me. She doesn't like the idea that in our friendship one of us will have to defeat the other one in an activity.

So I think the reason that the female lead in the typical game/movie seems out of place is that it is out of place. A female in Die Hard would have been fine, I guess - except women (as a rule, see above) don't tend to identify with a hard-nosed ass-kicker who leaves a trail of bodies behind them. And men don't fantasize about being a woman (most of us, anyway). So who would that movie appeal to?

There are some notable exceptions, Trinity in the Matrix is one, LeeLu (sp?) from the Fifth Element is another. Sci-fi and Fantasy often give you the setup that a woman in a certain position has to be a violent, conquering hero, and in that context that's cool.

But in general, women do not have a need to be a badass, and men do.

Note that I said "a badass", not "badass". Women do have a need to feel capable, competent, strong, etc. But for most women that simply does not equate over to the type of character you see displayed in a video game.

I'll repeat it - give me a Renee Montoya character and I will play it without often taking note of her gender, because she can be exceptionally awesome without having to kick the shit out of everybody. But when you simply try to drop a female into a role that is, generally, a male's fantasy, it doesn't appeal to as many people.

[J Arcane]

Faith, from Mirror's Edge, is another good one that I was quite impressed with.

[Jason]

Huh, I often play as female characters, in Mass Effect, Dragon Age... oh wait. Of course there's Persona 3 Portable too!

I do the same. Then again, I also go through those types of games as a male character as well to see both sides of the story. Same with playing good and bad. The gender and race of the character doesn't really to me as long as the story is interesting and game is fun. Of course in games like the old Streets of Rage series the female was often the fastest and second best character. If I remember correctly, she was the best character by the third game in the series.

[Spigot]

I tend to roll a female about 75% of the time if given the choice in an RPG, if only to see the different dialogue options. Of course, that's probably because I'm a big sissy girly-man. *sigh*

I think that having a good, non-sexualized female lead would probably do a world of good in helping broaden the market or at least help elevate it some from the ghetto of frat-boy fantasy dreams...

[Karmakin]

I think that having a good, non-sexualized female lead would probably do a world of good in helping broaden the market or at least help elevate it some from the ghetto of frat-boy fantasy dreams...

You know, I don't think it would. I think that female gamers. No strike that. I think women are general are more or less used to the idea that at least in the major media, the lead is usually going to be a male. I don't think that really limits the market all that much. I think the bigger limit is the overall theme, rather than individual characterization. At least that's been my experience.

The real problem is that the industry is really held hostage to the narrow interests of a portion of their consumer base who don't really pay the bills anyway, because if they don't they'll throw a temper tantrum. See the whole DIII "Rainbow" debacle for an example. (Blizzard wisely made fun of them because they're going to end up marketing the game to the millions of "casual" female players who play WoW)

[Spigot]

I think that the industry needs to stop listening to focus groups AND the screaming rabble on the message boards in equal measure.

[Acidpoptart]

The following is based on me actually being familiar with the situation and just getting off the phone with some people I know that were actually involved.

I do not buy this story at all. Here are the reasons:

Treyarch was developing THREE other games (Bond:QoS, CoD:WaW, and Spider-man: web of shadows) at the same time. Some were extremely behind schedule and developers were told that Black Lotus was canceled to get more man power on the existing projects and make upcoming major deadlines.
According to one developer I spoke to, the main character was a generic male at the time of the project getting canceled. He is not 100% sure, but had no idea what I was talking about when I asked about the female character lead.
You don't cancel a whole project over a single character. The game was basically a mash up of open world game ideas at the time of canceling. It would not have been hard to replace the character.


I hate Activision. But I do not buy this. If it is true that the game was resurrected as a new True Crime by a different developer, that is simply because they liked the Hong Kong theme and didnt want it to go to waste when Treyarch had to dump the project.

[JayVe]

We also forget how utterly unrealistic it is to have a woman as lead role in many games, unless it's Cooking Mama or something. Or a Barefoot 'N' Pregnant simulator. A woman holding a gun and getting dirty? Puh-leeze. She'd probably hold it backwards and she'd DEFINITELY need a man "sidekick" to help her every step of the way...meaning, do EVERYTHING for her, but she'd take all the credit at the end for saving the world.She's hidden within a masculine suit so we can't see her femaleness. That's how all women should be -- hidden away from public view, and their skin only for show for their husbands when the lights are off and only every fortnight. Otherwise, they'll become promiscuous.



Yanno, this isn't remotely funny.

You just come off as being completely insecure and backwards.

Humor fail.

Edit: While YOU may think this is so preposterous that it can not possibly be taken seriously, a LOT of the world actually thinks just like this. A lot of the world also thinks I am somehow superior to them due to the color of my skin. Does that make it funny to post white supremacy ideologies here? Or posting how inferior others are due to the color of their skin?

This is a low form of humor, poorly executed. There isn't even a wink emoticon or </sarcasm> tag to let people know you are joking. Poor taste.

I believe your wit is sharper than this.

[Lint of Death]

Thanks for the info, Acidpoptart!

[pomeroy]

Yanno, this isn't remotely funny.

You just come off as being completely insecure and backwards.

Humor fail.

I've been so waiting for this...

[Acidpoptart]

Talked to another friend from those days: He makes an EXCELLENT point that the article does not actually say the project was canned for having a female lead. I found it impossible to follow/understand the first time, but the truth is Activision didnt want a female lead, so it was changed to a male (thus explaining the other source telling me the model he saw was male) and the project was later canceled to free up developers to wrap up other projects.

[Spigot]

Sigh. Some people around here obviously haven't met Kelegacy and took the bait.

[JayVe]

Sigh. Some people around here obviously haven't met Kelegacy and took the bait.

Oh, I've met him. I also believe he can do better than such a poor showing.

I KNOW he does not believe what he posted. That still does not make it funny.

[Spigot]

Oh, I've met him. I also believe he can do better than such a poor showing.

I KNOW he does not believe what he posted. That still does not make it funny.That's why I just ignored it the first time. If you make a stink, he'll just keep trying for lamer material :)

[wyeast]

... and right on cue, Kill Bill Vol.1 on tv.

Like they planned it... <_<

[JayVe]

... and right on cue, Kill Bill Vol.1 on tv.

Like they planned it... <_<

Heh. Perhaps the Universe it trying to tell us something?
Maybe not... (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/)

[Deadend]

Heh. Perhaps the Universe it trying to tell us something?
Maybe not... (http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/06/23/confirmation-bias/)

That is a pretty awesome blog.

I'm also calling BULLSHIT on Activision.

Treyarch isn't allowed free will.
Activsion doesn't develop unproven games.

[JayVe]

That is a pretty awesome blog.

I'm also calling BULLSHIT on Activision.

Treyarch isn't allowed free will.
Activsion doesn't develop unproven games.

It IS an awesome blog. :D

In related news, facts don't sway fanboys. (http://www.redferret.net/?p=22644)

Researchers at the University of Michigan found that when misinformed people, particularly political partisans, were exposed to corrected facts in news stories, they rarely changed their minds. In fact, they often became even more strongly set in their beliefs. Facts, they found, were not curing misinformation. Like an underpowered antibiotic, facts could actually make misinformation even stronger.

But you (the reader) probably didn't want to believe this. In fact, it probably just reinforced the idea that you are a person who bases their decision based on facts instead of their own beliefs. Nothing to see here. ;-)

[muddi900]

Should I post the bias song now?

Anyway, FemShepherd all the way!

[Kelegacy]

Yanno, this isn't remotely funny.

You just come off as being completely insecure and backwards.

Humor fail.

Edit: While YOU may think this is so preposterous that it can not possibly be taken seriously, a LOT of the world actually thinks just like this. A lot of the world also thinks I am somehow superior to them due to the color of my skin. Does that make it funny to post white supremacy ideologies here? Or posting how inferior others are due to the color of their skin?

This is a low form of humor, poorly executed. There isn't even a wink emoticon or </sarcasm> tag to let people know you are joking. Poor taste.

I believe your wit is sharper than this.

That's because you always have a bug up your ass. Get over it and lighten up.

[JayVe]

I believe your wit is sharper than this.That's because you always have a bug up your ass. Get over it.
My bad. Right away. Next time I won't assume you can do any better.

[TrackZero]

When gender 'matters' to the story of a game (like Bioware titles), I play a male. When gender doesn't matter (MMOs and games w/ little story), I tend to pick a female.


Too bad, FemShep (Jennier Hale) is twice the better actor.

That said I usually play a female character whenever the option is available, generally for diversity reasons, I find it more interesting to try and be in someone elses shoes/perspective than "generic white guy lead character that you pretend is yourself". But that's just my preference.

[Kelegacy]

My bad. Right away. Next time I won't assume you can do any better.

"Defining and analyzing humor is a pastime of humorless people."

-Robert Benchley

And of course I don't feel that way. Satiring the feelings that plague the world is a part of humor. I know there are people that think that way, that was the point. I'm a lover of women and WANT more women in games. That I have to explain myself is perhaps the greatest fail.

But to derail no more. I won't fall into the bait of ruining a thread by needless bickering.

[Serapth]

Yanno, this isn't remotely funny.

You just come off as being completely insecure and backwards.

Humor fail.

Edit: While YOU may think this i

That's because you always have a bug up your ass. Get over it and lighten up.

You should have said "Sand in your vagina". Much funnier and on topic.

[Serapth]

Oh and I never roll a female character. Hell, I pretty much always roll up myself with less of a gut, name him Serapth and call it a day.

Except in DdO where I play a female warforged. The female part was purely accident as you can't tell anyways.

[Kelegacy]

You should have said "Sand in your vagina". Much funnier and on topic.

Aye, that is funny actually. I for some reason opted to have OJ this morning instead of coffee. Sorta regretting it. I might remedy that in a bit.

I am like you, I tend to roll characters that look most like me, with skills that I think I have/had (agility/speed--I was great in sports growing up). It's hard to deviate. I don't have a lack of imagination, so I don't know why it's hard for me to break out of that box. However, in Saints Row 2 I made a cockney bastard that was a bit on the chubby side and didn't look or act anything like me. That was an experiment and I actually liked it.

My RPG characters tend to be thieves or rouges, mostly because they have the best lockpick ability and I don't like to play games where I have to bypass a lot of hidden items and locked chests/doors. I don't deviate much there either. Playing a slow, giant strongman is just as unlikely for me as playing a female, for instance.

But always men. If making a party I will include females (like Icewind Dale or ToEE)...because a sausage party is NEVER fun.

[Serapth]

I always roll wizards, or wizard/fighters if allowed.

Dunno why, I just do.

Actually I do know why, playing a tank is fucking dull. Yeah, I went there.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I always roll wizards, or wizard/fighters if allowed.

Dunno why, I just do.

Actually I do know why, playing a tank is fucking dull. Yeah, I went there.

Actually, I tend to roll a tank if I'm playing a game for the first time--that way, I can get a feel for how combat gameplay works, then once I finish, I try a second time with a mage or thief character.

[JRR006]

You know, I don't think it would. I think that female gamers. No strike that. I think women are general are more or less used to the idea that at least in the major media, the lead is usually going to be a male. I don't think that really limits the market all that much. I think the bigger limit is the overall theme, rather than individual characterization. At least that's been my experience.

They're "used" to the idea that a lead will be male because for ever and ever it's been a choice between being content with what little is created with the express intent that women will associate themselves with the lead character, and the other 98% of everything ever produced. I think that there is a potential audience out there -- the sorts who hang out on feminist forums and who buy DVDs to support shows that pass the Bechdel test, stuff like that.

I'm undecided on themes in video games. I was thinking the other night about how great Silent Hill 2 is, and how it taps in to so many mature fears. Failing a loved one, growing to hate them, feeling trapped by relationships, and so forth. That's all fantastic material and I'd love to have many more games with that maturity of theme and tone. But then I remember most popular movies don't have that maturity, and weep...

In general:
It's nice to be a man and to have most media produced for you by default. Those in this thread who have said they dislike role-playing as women interest me, because female gamers have to do that all the time. Women have to do that all the time, when they take in most movies, books, and so forth, because cis heterosexual males are by and large the customers that most media seeks to serve.* I'm a realist, it's down to money and the all-important 18-24 [cis hetero] dollars. There's little room for impassioned gestures toward equality when money is on the line!

The Patriarchy is gettin' me down. ;)

*On the other hand, it's fascinating to see fandom on LiveJournal, especially compared to, like, CoG. Most fandom enclaves on LJ are very female spaces, created by and for women. (Especially all the slash/yaoi.) What would it be like if that sort of dynamic was at work in almost every major film, book, and game, and tales of heroic men shooting everything heroically for JUSTICE were relegated to dark corners of the internet?**

** I know these are the most extreme examples ever. There is cultural middle ground, but we're having this discussion because video games fall on the distinctly masculine end of the spectrum, right?

[Ravenlock]

Don't have time to read the whole thread right now, will catch up later, but I also played and enjoyed the female Shepard, and certainly have no problem playing as female characters in games. I've been okay with that since King's Quest IV, and that was in 1988 when girls still had cooties.

Nobody thought it was that crazy to have a female protagonist then, and KQIV actually sold much better than the 3 games before it despite the protagonist being a not-over-sexualized female.

[wyeast]

I find it more interesting to try and be in someone elses shoes/perspective than "generic white guy lead character that you pretend is yourself".
Because I can relate so well to being a generic white guy. :D

ok. Maybe I can... :o

:D

[Karmakin]

JRR:Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of the status quo. I just don't think it's realistic to expect one medium to change in a vacuum. I'd like to see more games with good female lead characters. I'm a fan of good female characters in general. All I'm saying is that right now the WATB douchebag choad crew cries like fucking babies about anything that's not thematically aimed right at them. (Could I heave any more scorn at those people?) And unfortunately, by and large they're the folks running the game market right now.

For what it's worth, I think that games where you create your own character, and as such the character is more passive can't be compared to story-driven games with a purposefully created character. Just my opinion. (Or in other words, it's not the end of the world if you roll a male character in such a game.)

And yes. Fuck the patriarchy.

[Serapth]

[Translation request.]

QUERY> WATB douchebag choad crew

[Request submitted]

[JayVe]

Most of this thread is very insightful.

I'm also really interested in the idea that some male players won't play anything but male characters. Most games are headlined by a male (and white) protaginist. If female gamers felt the same way, the industry isn't making them feel welcome.

[KSmitty]

I am male so I make my characters male in the games I play. I don't actively avoid games with female leads, hell I love Samus. Given the character design choice, I pick the male option. Given a good game I don't give a damn what the main characters sex is.

What about asexual characters like Kirby? Where do they fall in this argument? Or anthropomorphic characters like Ratchet?

[BigJonno]

I wonder how often female gamers are consulted about the kind of lead characters that they'd like. Rather than trying to appeal to some unknown potential female customers, start with the ones who already like the games, but may not like the characters. Incremental improvement, rather than overextending while trying to reach an audience who might simply not like games.

I firmly believe that it's possible to have characters of any race or gender who appeal to everyone. If we concentrate on sympathetic, heroic characters, surely just going with 'sexy, but not overly sexual,' 'strong,' 'competent' and 'interestingly flawed' would get you 90% of the way there. If wanted to create lead characters with wider appeal, but didn't want to alienate my existing audience, I wouldn't be asking "What do women want?" I'd go for "What appeals to both genders?"

Thinking about characters who seem to appeal to both genders, TV seems to provide more good examples than any other medium. Firefly has a great cast of characters who all seem to have universal appeal and I think the Winchesters from Supernatural are textbook cases for male characters who appeal to women without alienating men. Who wouldn't to play a game where you got to be Dean? :D

[JayVe]

I am a male. Given the choice, I most often pick a female character.

I think my brain is wired to prefer staring at women on the screen instead of guys. Especially 3rd person games. I don't want to look at a guy's butt for 40 hours if I have an option to look at a woman's butt instead.

At no time do I ever really feel like I am 'that person' in the game, unless the games are 1st person. Half-Life, Halo, Metroid Prime, Oblivion. Then I'm the one in the role. Typically I am driving a little avatar around. I'd rather look at females, even if they are only models. The female form is very pleasing to my eyes.

[Dorkandproudofit]

I've noticed that not one female has posted in this thread.

Where are all the wimmenfolk at? We need one to give us a unique perspective.

[TrackZero]

Because I can relate so well to being a generic white guy. :D

ok. Maybe I can... :o

:D

Actually there is an unaired FUDcast segment where I argued with the guys about racism in games. And where the fuck are my black/asian/indian lead characters? I doubt it'll see the light of day.

[JayVe]

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/atari2600boxing-tm.jpg?w=400&h=300
There are black people in video games (http://www.next-gen.biz/features/why-are-black-game-characters-failing-audience)

[Zero]

Kudos to Activision. Bitches ain't nothin but hos and tricks.

Hellz yes! Dolla' dolla' bill is the name of the game y'all.


Actually there is an unaired FUDcast segment where I argued with the guys about racism in games. And where the fuck are my black/asian/indian lead characters? I doubt it'll see the light of day.

Prey on 360 had Injuns as the main characters and both True Crimes have had minority main characters. Now the real question... where are the Mexican lead characters?

Does Dom from Gears count as a space Mexican?

[BigJonno]

I'd be terrified of putting any kind of minority as the lead in a game that I was making, just because I can see it drawing loads of shit no matter how you do it. If I was in charge of a team that had the resources to hire a writer of the appropriate background, or even hire someone as a consultant, I'd go with that route. Otherwise I'd be concerned that the character would either come across as a white guy with purely aesthetic changes, or it'd descend too far into stereotype territory. Either way, you'd be under serious scrutiny because of the relative rarity of minority characters in games.

[Savok]

I say we solve this with a Jamie Reyes/Blue Beetle game written by Giffen and Rogers.

[JayVe]

I'd be terrified of putting any kind of minority as the lead in a game that I was making, just because I can see it drawing loads of shit no matter how you do it. If I was in charge of a team that had the resources to hire a writer of the appropriate background, or even hire someone as a consultant, I'd go with that route. Otherwise I'd be concerned that the character would either come across as a white guy with purely aesthetic changes, or it'd descend too far into stereotype territory. Either way, you'd be under serious scrutiny because of the relative rarity of minority characters in games.
I'm going to assume from this post that you are a white male.

Perhaps we need more people of various races and gender making games. Perhaps they would be more comfortable putting people like themselves in the lead role.

I understand completely. I wouldn't want to act the role of an Indian or African American in a play, or write from their perspective in a novel. I would be terrified of offending people. I'm very comfortable with my significant experience as a white male though.

[BigJonno]

Perhaps we need more people of various races and gender making games. Perhaps they would be more comfortable putting people like themselves in the lead role.

I definitely think we do. Hopefully this will happen naturally with time. I haven't got any statistics to back this up, but I've not seen evidence that minority children are any less likely to play videogames (and thus be potentially interested in working in the industry) than white children. I'd be interested in seeing a broad study on how people viewed the gender and ethnicity of videogame characters. I'd guess that gender has more of an effect than ethnicity (so a typical white male is more likely to play a black male than a white female, for example.)

[JRR006]

JRR:Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of the status quo. I just don't think it's realistic to expect one medium to change in a vacuum. I'd like to see more games with good female lead characters. I'm a fan of good female characters in general. All I'm saying is that right now the WATB douchebag choad crew cries like fucking babies about anything that's not thematically aimed right at them. (Could I heave any more scorn at those people?) And unfortunately, by and large they're the folks running the game market right now.

For what it's worth, I think that games where you create your own character, and as such the character is more passive can't be compared to story-driven games with a purposefully created character. Just my opinion. (Or in other words, it's not the end of the world if you roll a male character in such a game.)

And yes. Fuck the patriarchy.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as though I were railing against your post. I just thought it was a really convenient jumping-off point. :) I'm agreed about the practicality. It would be fantastic to see more developers take chances, but I don't expect many companies to step far out of line when the economic waters are so troubled. And as you say, a lot of them are fairly correct in what the most vocal portion of their customer base wants.

And that is an excellent distinction to make. In cases where one creates their own character, gender is a simple aesthetic choice and has few (usually zero) ramifications for the story or one's interaction with the game world. I think that having the option for representation is a small step, but a good one, and agree that purposefully-created lead characters in narrative-driven games would be a larger step forward.

[Talanvor]

I'd be a little curious to see what the stats are for Mass Effect 2. As in, how many people played a male vs. female Commander Shepard along with the customization that took place. I'm guessing that there would be a surprisingly large amount of people that rolled with just the default.

I tried looking it up but I just found someone on the Bioware forums that their own survey so that's not incredibly helpful. Fucking self selection how does it work?

[JayVe]

Female Shepard here.

[Savok]

Female here too.

I did start a male out of a need to boink Tali, while Mark had improved he's still boring as hell and drags down every conversation he's in since everyone else's performance had improved as well.

[muddi900]

poll

10char

[JayVe]

Poll: Commander Shepard is a...

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/mass-effect-shepard-statue.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/female-icon.pnghttp://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa55/goodavatar/male-icon.png (http://www.colonyofgamers.com/cogforums/showthread.php?t=18972)

[muddi900]

poll

10char