DS R4 Cartridges Banned in the UK.

[BigJonno]

Here's the story. (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/r4-cart-ban-more-details-emerge)

The Hon Mr Justice Floyd, who made the ruling, wrote: "Each game card has the code relevant to the NLDF installed on it. I cannot see how it can be said that Nintendo authorised the copying of this into RAM.

"The accused devices are much more than the reel-to-reel tape recorders in CBS v Amstrad (1988).

"They are templates for infringement."

The reasoning seems to be that these carts are different from simple media copying devices because they're made to bypass Nintendo's security measures. A few years ago, I would have thought this was terrible. My Playstation was modded so that I could play imported games rather than have a big stack of pirated stuff. Nowadays it seems to be the homebrew rather than the import crowd who claim legitimate uses for this kind of stuff, but I wonder what percentage of these things are used for homebrew, but not copied games.

Is it a question of numbers, would it be okay to ban if only 1% were used purely for homebrew? What about 10 or 50%? Could some sort of compromise be reached where homebrew software is allowed but copied games are blocked? Is that even possible, or would allowing homebrew ensure that the security measures were, sooner or later, circumvented?

Thoughts?

[Gorvi]

This is good to see. I know there are "valid" reasons for wanting to use an R4 (same as hacking a PSP), but if it can be used for piracy I say kill it.

[RandoM51]

If you kill every bit of tech that can be used for piracy you won't have any tech left.

Cracking down on supply just increases demand and increased demand means more money for the people who supply that demand.

Legislation that focuses only upon the supply side is doomed to failure. Just check out the war on drugs for an example.

[Gorvi]

If you kill every bit of tech that can be used for piracy you won't have any tech left.
True. To be more specific and on topic, if it allows piracy on a console/handheld, no matter how many other "legitimate" uses it may have, it should be snuffed out.

[RandoM51]

True. To be more specific and on topic, if it allows piracy on a console/handheld, no matter how many other "legitimate" uses it may have, it should be snuffed out.

Oh, so devices that facilitate piracy of pc games, music, movies, and literature are fine, but those that facilitate piracy of console/handheld games aren't?

[CES]

Let's be completely honest, 99% of people who own an R4 (or clone) aren't doing it for the homebrew. That said, the ability to stack dozens of games onto the one unit is something that needs to be more common, especially with tiny cartridges like the DS uses.

[Gorvi]

Oh, so devices that facilitate piracy of pc games, music, movies, and literature are fine, but those that facilitate piracy of console/handheld games aren't?
Nope. But these are easier to police I would assume, more reasonable. If you want to snuff out PC piracy you may as well just ban PCs.

[RandoM51]

If you want to snuff out PC piracy you may as well just ban PCs.

If you want to snuff out console/handheld piracy you may as well just ban consoles/handhelds.

If they were serious about anything other than keeping Nintendo happy to do business in the UK they'd not only make them illegal to sell/import in the UK, they'd make them illegal to own.

[Gorvi]

If you want to snuff out console/handheld piracy you may as well just ban consoles/handhelds.
If you say so. I don't fault console manufacturers for fighting to stop piracy in this manner. And at least with the PS3 it still can't play pirated games, which is rather impressive.

[RandoM51]

If you say so. I don't fault console manufacturers for fighting to stop piracy in this manner. And at least with the PS3 it still can't play pirated games, which is rather impressive.

I don't fault the manufacturers either, I do find fault with haphazard legislation that will ultimately have little to no effect. This ruling doesn't even cover other handhelds or consoles, it is specifically for devices to get around the security on Nintendo's handhelds.

Think about it, this is equivalent to banning handguns but not banning murder with handguns. :)

PS3 is simply a case of security through obscurity, its days are numbered.

[Gorvi]

I don't fault the manufacturers either, I do find fault with haphazard legislation that will ultimately have little to no effect. This ruling doesn't even cover other handhelds or consoles, it is specifically for devices to get around the security on Nintendo's handhelds.

Think about it, this is equivalent to banning handguns but not banning murder with handguns. :)
I'll agree with that.
PS3 is simply a case of security through obscurity, its days are numbered.
Given enough time anything will be hacked for piracy, it's just impressive that after all this time it still hasn't been. 3 1/2 years and 38+ million consoles later and you still can't play pirated games on the thing, that's nothing to sneeze at.

[BigJonno]

I don't fault the manufacturers either, I do find fault with haphazard legislation that will ultimately have little to no effect. This ruling doesn't even cover other handhelds or consoles, it is specifically for devices to get around the security on Nintendo's handhelds.

Think about it, this is equivalent to banning handguns but not banning murder with handguns. :)

PS3 is simply a case of security through obscurity, its days are numbered.

Nope, your analogy is flawed. Pirating software is already illegal. So it's like banning the sale of handguns without taking away the ones that are already there.

Is it stands, there's not much point in banning the devices themselves because they'll be obsolete soon enough. What would they do if the devices did become illegal, start randomly checking seven year olds to see if they've got an illegal device in their DS?

It's all a precedent thing anyway. The next time a console-security-bypassing device pops up and it goes to court, the judge will probably cite this case and ban it, unless there is good reason not to.

[RandoM51]

Nope, your analogy is flawed. Pirating software is already illegal. So it's like banning the sale of handguns without taking away the ones that are already there.
Name the last consumer to be prosecuted for pirating DS games in the UK. Ok, name ANY consumer prosecuted for DS piracy. If you don't do anything to address demand your efforts with supply just push it underground.

If my analogy is flawed I suppose that would have to mean you don't think life in prison and/or the death penalty provide any deterrent whatsoever to murder?

Only addressing sale and import serves only to increase demand and profit which will counteract the increased risk for those who choose to import/sell. It will keep them from showing up in the local market I suppose, but it won't keep them off the street, won't prevent piracy.

So many examples in history that show why this doesn't work, you'd think people would come up with something new.

[Generation ABXY]

This is good to see. I know there are "valid" reasons for wanting to use an R4 (same as hacking a PSP), but if it can be used for piracy I say kill it.

And so goes the Internet. Farewell, old friend! :D

That said, the ability to stack dozens of games onto the one unit is something that needs to be more common, especially with tiny cartridges like the DS uses.

This is where I find it most useful, to be honest; if I can have all my games on me without all the clutter, all the better. Combine that with the homebrew scene, and the DS can become a terribly versatile gadget (I mean, I've got a word processor, e-reader, mp3 player, and web browser in one very compact device).

But, as you say, that's probably not how most people use it... so, I don't know how I feel about this.

[Gorvi]

And so goes the Internet. Farewell, old friend! :D
Didn't you hear a few weeks ago? The internet is over! ;)

[BigJonno]

Name the last consumer to be prosecuted for pirating DS games in the UK. Ok, name ANY consumer prosecuted for DS piracy. If you don't do anything to address demand your efforts with supply just push it underground.

It's not about going after the consumer. That's just impractical. It's going after the people profiting from piracy. When you're dealing with physical media, that's relatively simple, you go after the people making and selling the copies. With DS piracy, that's not happening, people are buying the devices and then downloading the games. It's not even like console modding where you have to get some dodgy bloke to stick a chip inside your machine. Previously, there was no-one to go after because the devices that were being sold weren't illegal. Now they are and something can be done about it.

There is no practical way to get the existing carts off the street. It's a lost cause in that respect, but now a precedent exists that can be used to nip any similar devices for future consoles in the bud, before they become as ubiquitous as they are for the DS.

[Ravenlock]

I find it a remarkable (and unfortunate) contrast to the U.S. ruling this week making it explicitly legal to jailbreak an iPhone - which, of course, opens the iPhone up to having pirated software run on it.

Which, in my opinion, it's absolutely ludicrous for anyone to question. If I buy a piece of hardware, that hardware is mine, and I should have the right to do what I like with it so long as it doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights. Put custom firmware on it, light it on fire, smash it with a rock, whatever. It's my device.

Same logic applies to the DS or any other console, in my mind. Just because an R4 allows you to run pirated software is no more support for making it illegal than the existence of non-street-legal car modifications is support for outlawing the owning of a wrench. Actions are or aren't legal. Tools with perfectly legal uses should not be called into question just because they also have illegal uses. Find me a tool that can't have an illegal use.

I have one coworker who bought an R4 specifically and solely for the ability to carry around all the games he had purchased without risking losing the carts, and so as not to risk losing his saved games (he backs them up to his PC). Perfectly legit use, and to him it was worth the $$ to do. There's no reason to criminalize that.

Yes, if you want to get nitpicky about it he does have to download the ROMs of those games he owns, since he doesn't have a ROM dumping device. If the difference between dumping the ROM yourself and having someone else do it is the sort of thing that pushes an action from "ok" to "not ok"... well, that's really fucking stupid, but whatever floats your boat I suppose. ;)

EDIT: Of course, because of the nuances of how this stuff works, there's a whole other battle going on where Nintendo will develop new carts that "can't" run on the R4 (at least for awhile), or will release a Wii system update that wipes out the Homebrew channel, or new PSP games will require new firmware that hasn't been cracked yet - all that stuff is perfectly well and good. If it's my right as a customer to modify my device, then it's also my responsibility to deal with the consequences, and the company has zero duty to support it in any way (and every right to try to oppose it by locking future features out for those who choose to do it). It just doesn't belong in a courtroom.

[Generation ABXY]

I suppose I agree with Ravenlock.

[Bone]

I also agree with Ravenlock. DS cartridges are tiny and I've lost a couple of my favorite games while on vacation. Metroid Pinball, I miss you. Now I back up all my games and no longer worry about losing them or making room for all the little carts. I've also gotten to check out some cool homebrew, most notably the Colors! painting app.

And I have put up with plenty of people's condescending remarks like "let's face it, it's an excuse for piracy" or "you are in the minority, everyone else is using it for piracy". I don't care. I'm not using it for piracy, so leave me out of it. It's my device. I'm glad the U.S. courts agree with me.

[CES]

Don't think I want the carts banned, I own a DSTT and it's a fantastic bit of kit. I'm just not going to delude myself into thinking that the main reason I own one is to tinker with custom apps/have an ebook reader (on a screen that small no less)/MP3 player.

I did like being able to play through a fan-translation of HeartGold long before it saw a US/EU release though, fucking Nintendo and their long-ass translation times.

[Vigil80]

I'm with Ravenlock and Random on this for the most part.

It's heavy-handed, misplaced, too-little-too-late, and on and on. The only real difference I see between this and efforts like Ubisoft's consumer punishing DRM is the body handing down the edict: government and company.

Piracy is the game (and movie and music) industry boogieman. I'll never believe that all the effort and resources spent fighting it is well spent. I'll eat my words if hundreds of UK residents collectively decide, "Blimey, I can't pirate DS games with that one specific device? Well chaps, time to head down the carriageway to the game shoppe and throw dozens of DS games in the boot!"

[BigJonno]

The difference between this and the jailbroken iPhone thing is that, as far as I'm aware, no-one is manufacturing and selling devices with the sole purpose of circumventing the security measures of the iPhone. The devices also contain what amounts to stolen code.

Each game card has the code relevant to the NLDF installed on it. I cannot see how it can be said that Nintendo authorised the copying of this into RAM.

The ruling isn't "RARRR, NO HOMEBREW FOR YOU!" it's preventing the sale of devices that circumvent security measures with stolen or reverse engineered code.

What do you guys think of a hypothetical device that can deactivate car alarms, unlock the doors and then start the engine?

[Bone]

For my own car? I can buy that.

[J Arcane]

... and suddenly every kid with a DS will be taking a chunnel trip to Calais to buy one anyway.

Assuming this isn't a by name ban, in which case I might point out that at present standards, the R4 is obsolete rubbish anyway. No one serious about piracy still buys one anyhow.

[J Arcane]

What do you guys think of a hypothetical device that can deactivate car alarms, unlock the doors and then start the engine?

This is a deeply inaccurate description of the situation and you should be appalled with yourself for having used it.

[BigJonno]

This is a deeply inaccurate description of the situation and you should be appalled with yourself for having used it.

I disagree. Both these cartridges and my hypothetical device are tools. They both bypass security systems. They both have potential legitimate uses. They are both far, far more likely to be used for illegitimate ones. I'm not for one minute comparing car theft with pirating DS games, other than them both being illegal and both requiring the circumvention of security systems.

These cartridges haven't been banned because they allow software piracy. They've been banned because they circumvent security systems. That's a pretty important difference, which was recognised by the judge when he brought up that old tape deck ruling.

EDIT: I really can't believe that you called my car security disabling device "deeply inaccurate" when compared to some of the other stuff brought up in this thread.

[J Arcane]

They are devices that allow me to do what I wish with my own hardware. They grant me no special privileges over the hardware of others, nor do the constitute a threat to the security of other's devices.

If you must insist on analogy, a more accurate comparison would be the devices used to alter settings and programming on on-board computers to parameters not authorized by the manufacturer. It is technically true that I might use such a device to modify things in a way harmful to myself or in a way that makes the car no longer street-legal, but it doesn't grant me magic powers to walk up to anyone else's car and do the same before driving off with it.

Your comparison is ludicrous.

[BigJonno]

Did I say anything remotely like that? No. I didn't imply for one second that R4 cartridges allow you to take over other people's handhelds or anything like that because I'm not a fucking retard.

The main argument being put forward here is that people should be able to do what they like with their own hardware. I completely agree with this and, for all we know, so does the judge. If that was what the ruling was regarding, I'd be 100% against it.

What he doesn't agree with, which I think is worth discussing, is people selling devices that exist purely to break the security on a piece of hardware. Forget what people do once the security has been broken, that's irrelevant. The cartridges break DS security and they do so using code that is owned by Nintendo.

[Bone]

It is a bad analogy because I can legally buy a device to do all those things to my car.

[J Arcane]

It's also a bad analogy because there are countless legal devices that allow me to break security on all kinds of things.

However, what's being ignored, and why I objected, is that the only "security" being circumvented here is the one that allows Nintendo to tell you what you can and can't do with your software and your device. That it takes a hardware object to do it on the DS is a matter of technicality, it is otherwise no different than similar means employed on countless other devices.

The only portion that even remotely makes it a justifiable precedent at all is if the allegation is true that there was actual copyrighted Nintendo code on the device. That's it, as far as I'm concerned. And that is, frankly, nothing but technicality and legal trickery of the same sort as the DMCA. They can't strike down fair use, so they just find ways of making exercising your fair use illegal. (Incidentally, it's also the same trick that Sega used to try and shut down unlicensed console games back when.)

I am deeply opposed to these kinds of anti-circumvention and anti-fair use regulations, and applaud the recent decision that has finally started opening up the DMCA. The sooner we in the US get rid of that piece of blatantly anti-consumer, pro-corporatist bollocks the better, and I think it's unfortunate that right when we here are finally winning some victories on those grounds, the UK has just performed the equivalent of banning BitTorrent.

[BigJonno]

That it takes a hardware object to do it on the DS is a matter of technicality, it is otherwise no different than similar means employed on countless other devices.

It's not a technicality when someone is profiting from selling them. It's the difference between torrenting a movie and somebody selling a dodgy copy.

If someone wants to download movies, games, music or whatever, then fine, more power to them. There can't be more than a handful of people here who have never done it and I really don't believe it has a particularly negative effect on the creative industries, because I don't think that there are many pirates who would have bought what they download. It's almost certainly balanced by the people who do go and buy something after downloading it, or at least buy future products from the same source.

However, I don't think it's right that a third party should be making money from this process. That's the basis of my support for this ruling. In the case of these cartridges, it's not a direct thing, but who is naive enough to believe that the vast majority of these things won't be used for piracy? It'd be like selling lockpicks and thinking that they'd mostly be used by people who forgot their keys.

[J Arcane]

It's the difference between torrenting a movie and somebody selling a dodgy copy.

They aren't selling dodgy copies. They're selling a device that can be used to play dodgy copies, but it is not pirate software in itself for any reason other than clever trickery on Nintendo's part, the same "Oh! You used our trademark!" gotcha that Sega used to go after Accolade.

It'd be like selling lockpicks and thinking that they'd mostly be used by people who forgot their keys.

And yet, I can buy professional lockpicking tools from countless internet sites entirely legally. And slim jims from almost any hardware store in the US. And when was the last time a store asked you to prove the key you were having them copy was actually to your house?

[BigJonno]

They aren't selling dodgy copies. They're selling a device that can be used to play dodgy copies, but it is not pirate software in itself for any reason other than clever trickery on Nintendo's part, the same "Oh! You used our trademark!" gotcha that Sega used to go after Accolade.

Oh, come off it. You're smarter than that. People using these for homebrew are going to be a tiny minority and the manufacturers know that. I imagine that producing actual pirate DS carts would be prohibitively expensive, so they just find another way to profit from people's desire to get cheap/free games at any cost.

[Ravenlock]

Yeah, I'm with J here, Jonno. The problem with your position describes itself in your last sentence; there's absolutely nothing illegal about manufacturing, selling, purchasing or owning a lockpick, nor should there be. Owning a lockpick does not equal using it to break the law. The tool is not the action. EDIT: Nor do the motivations of the people selling those lockpicks (or what they believe their customers will use them for) matter to the legality of the lockpicks, to address your most recent post (which went up while I was typing).

I can see halfway to the argument about Nintendo's copyrighted code on the device, if it's true, which I have no idea. If it's reverse-engineered rather than stolen, though, I have little to no problem with that either.

[J Arcane]

Oh, come off it. You're smarter than that. People using these for homebrew are going to be a tiny minority and the manufacturers know that. I imagine that producing actual pirate DS carts would be prohibitively expensive, so they just find another way to profit from people's desire to get cheap/free games at any cost.
I.

Don't.

Care.

If it's being used for a crime, prosecute the crime, not the tool.

R4's don't pirate games, people do.

If you want to ban a device that will actually prevent piracy, at least go after the devices and people that actually make these pirate copies in the first place. Cart rippers and ROM leakers are the people responsible for those pirate copies, not the R4. The R4 is just a player, it serves no purpose on it's own without software to run on it.

There are a zillion things in this world that can be used, and frequently are used, to commit crimes. And you know what the sane response to that is? Arrest the criminals.

This is as ridiculous as that ban on kitchen knives from a few years ago.

[Superman's Dead]

But, as Jonno keeps saying...isn't the device in and of itself illegal? Isn't that the issue? Shouldn't they just...not do that?

[BigJonno]

Okay, let's get really general here, because I don't think I'm doing a good job of explaining where I'm coming from. I'm going to dump the analogies because we're just picking holes in each others'.

What's happening here is that people want to pirate Nintendo software, which although illegal, Nintendo can't really do anything about. Third parties have found a way to profit from this situation, possibly using pirated code in the process, and, previously, Nintendo couldn't do anything about that, either.

So in general terms, party A is doing something illegal to party B and party C is profiting from it. This strikes me as being fundamentally wrong. I feel that the law should be protecting party B. Yes, in this case the wronged party is a big corporation, but I don't think that the law should grant them any less protection.

Now if anyone can provide a solution that doesn't involve banning shit, I'm all for it.

EDIT: Past 3AM, need sleep, just putting a note in so you don't think I'm slinking off in a huff. ;)

[J Arcane]

Party C is only "profiting from it" if you accept the blatant generalization of assuming that the only use for an R4 is the execution of pirated software.

That isn't true. Anymore than it's true of my computer, or my Wii, or a DVD player, or any other device that can play pirated software.

Just because it can do so is not grounds for banning it.

And as I've said before, I don't need to provide a "solution" for a "problem" that isn't as much of an issue as it's made out to be. Those advocating anti-consumer legislation and bans of legitimate hardware devices however, need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that their only use is purely criminal activity.

Which is of course impossible, which is why you don't ban shit like this.

[Ravenlock]

But, as Jonno keeps saying...isn't the device in and of itself illegal? Isn't that the issue? Shouldn't they just...not do that?

Well, nobody has yet argued against the fact that an R4 has several perfectly legal uses. So whether or not the device should be "in and of itself illegal" is very much the question at hand. Since I've already explained at length above why I don't believe it should be, I won't repeat myself here.

[menage]

Banning stuff like this will only force them to find another way which isn´t illegal at that point. Doesn´t solve shit cause people who actively pirate this for their own or kids use aren´t going to buy tons of games all of a sudden. They don´t see the value there for what they´re paying for, so they won´t.

For the rest I agree with Ravenlock

[Superman's Dead]

Well, nobody has yet argued against the fact that an R4 has several perfectly legal uses. So whether or not the device should be "in and of itself illegal" is very much the question at hand. Since I've already explained at length above why I don't believe it should be, I won't repeat myself here.

Right, but the technology itself is illegal. The cards have something they shouldn't have on them. Take that out and it's all good, do that, make them legal, then this conversation is worthwhile. Until then, regardless of all the good they can do, according to the law they're wrong. Not because of what they can do, but because of illegally sold technology.

[Superman's Dead]

Illegal because the cards have the NLDF code, which does seem wrong, not because of what they can do.

Its like in law and orde where you know the guy is guilty but cant prove it, and Sam mccoy has to grandstand to music for a minute to win the case.

[JayVe]

I love my 'R4' card for my DS. I leave my carts at home, and have the games loaded on the R4. I also find myself painting in Colors! (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1) quite often. While I paint a lot, I'm not good, like some other people... (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1)

http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/halfs/_42798.jpg (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1)

[Ravenlock]

That is a pretty great piece of artwork. Colors is really cool software, and one of the best examples of how good homebrew on the DS can be.

As I said earlier in the thread, as far as the "illegal" code on the device, I'm simply not familiar enough with it to know exactly what it is. If they actually stole code from Nintendo and put it in their hardware, yeah, I agree that ought to be illegal and pre-empts any other discussion (and in that case I would agree that the R4 is a problem but would have no issue with any other flashcart not doing that). If they managed to reverse-engineer a way around the device's protection, though, I have no problem with that. Anybody have an article or something that lays out the specifics?

[Hotcod]

First step to banning torrent then.

[Gorvi]

I'd love to see Nintendo put out a homebrew card of their own where they could lock out retail games being played but at the same time allow people to run software they make themselves. Same goes for Sony with the PSP. I doubt we'll ever see it as they'd only make any money off of the initial sale, but even then they could do something like Apple's app store. That'll never happen with either of them, but it'd be nice, and a way to appease those who want to use homebrew type stuff.

[Ravenlock]

I'd love to see that too, Gorvi - largely because I'd love to see any of these companies supporting homebrew in any capacity - but it still wouldn't be justification for making other devices that do similar things illegal.

As I said in my first reply, one of my coworkers uses an R4 to backup, carry and play the games he legally owns, and only those. There's nothing at all that is or should be illegal about that, and if somebody wants to sell him a device that lets him do that, more power to them.

[Gorvi]

I'd love to see that too, Gorvi - largely because I'd love to see any of these companies supporting homebrew in any capacity - but it still wouldn't be justification for making other devices that do similar things illegal.

As I said in my first reply, one of my coworkers uses an R4 to backup, carry and play the games he legally owns, and only those. There's nothing at all that is or should be illegal about that, and if somebody wants to sell him a device that lets him do that, more power to them.
I think it would at least do a bit to fill the need of some people who want a device like an R4. I think the only way they could satisfy the want of those who want to be able to carry the games around with them digitally is to do like Sony is with the PSP and release every game digitally.

So far as ripping games, believe me, it's something I can totally understand. I have a hacked PSP-1000 that I keep that way solely because I like to rip PS1 games to it to play on the go. I damn near bought a Cyclo DS (same concept as the R4) off a friend of mine so that I could rip DS games to it and keep a small number of MP3s on it. While I love the use I think there may be some legal gray areas with doing things like that. Of course, I'm not up on copyright law in any way, shape, or form so I could be very wrong.

[Darkmatter]

Nope. But these are easier to police I would assume, more reasonable. If you want to snuff out PC piracy you may as well just ban PCs.

This is a horrible way to think of it. You can't start going after only certain sub-categories of what you think is a crime. That is a dangerous way to select who to prosecute, or what to make illegal.. We already have a system where money can often buy your freedom from a crime by having enough good lawyers, now you want to just "not bother" with anything that isn't "easier".?

We might as well cross off prosecuting corporations because it'll be to hard(to much money/lawyers).

Rich people? Hell no they can get lots of lawyers too.

Genius sociopaths who murder countless people? Nope, they're to smart and move around to much to bother with. To many cop's needed to handle the case.

We WILL however step up on picking up street walkers and any other poor person who commits a crime but can't afford a good lawyer.

We have enough bias in our legal system as it is without adding more. And if you think this doesn't relate to the article because it deals with a law, not a crime, I disagree. Many laws are made to go after certain types of crimes. We might as well just scrap corporate law, anti-trust, or anything else that requires a lot of work to prove.

Choosing to only go after the "criminals" who you think are easy is about as bias as they come.

[Gorvi]

I wasn't saying not to bother, I was just trying to keep the topic more on consoles as it's an easier solution, or at least it should be.

[Generation ABXY]

I love my 'R4' card for my DS. I leave my carts at home, and have the games loaded on the R4. I also find myself painting in Colors! (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1) quite often. While I paint a lot, I'm not good, like some other people... (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1)

http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/halfs/_42798.jpg (http://colors.collectingsmiles.com/top.php?page=1)

Colors is a fantastic program. I may not have the patience for some of the larger works these people turn out, but damn if it isn't fun to just screw around with from time to time.

[JayVe]

My artistic skills have improved a bit simply from watching the replays of the artwork on the Colors! site.

[RandoM51]

They're recruiting them at a young age.

ZLsJyfN0ICU

[Gorvi]

Lazy Town has nothing on The Wiggles as far as creepy pirates go.......