Qualification devaluing

[BigJonno]

Is it just me, or are qualifications rapidly losing value? As I was job searching today, I came across an admin assistant post that was paying £16-18000 a year that required a bachelor's degree. To put that in perspective, a job at the national minimum wage would pay £12000 a year.

The last time I worked as an admin assistant (about 4-5 years ago) I was paid that amount of money and many of staff who were in their late 30s or older wondered what the hell I was doing in entry-level admin because I had A-levels. (In the English education system you can leave school at 16 after doing GCSEs or stay until 18 and do A-levels.)

I can understand reasons for it; more people getting degrees, less jobs to go around, but it doesn't stop it from being a little crazy. Where is it going to stop?

[TrackZero]

Which is why we mainly look at relevant job experience and do testing at our work for hires, rather than focus on a piece of paper they may or may not have earned.

[Superman's Dead]

Which is why we mainly look at relevant job experience and do testing at our work for hires, rather than focus on a piece of paper they may or may not have earned.

Which blows for everyone who just got a piece of paper and needs relevant job experience.

[Thanasimos]

Note: this all functions on the assumption that British public education mirrors American public education in terms of decay.

More people have the degrees, yes; but there's also a feeling -- at least in the States -- that the degrees are easier to get. Considering what I know some of my friends at. . . less challenging institutions of learning are doing for their degrees, I'll believe it. Furthermore, these positions are probably targeted (I can't confirm this, as I can't see your listing) at kids who have scrapped through for generally inapplicable liberal arts degrees; as a result the degree merely says "I can graduate from college and happen to like history."

In the States, a high school diploma is meaningless, not only because everybody gets one, but because everybody really, really means everybody. Even the ones who can't tie their own shoes. The Bachelor's is the new, "Look, okay, I can take care of myself," so it is devaluing to the value of the high school diploma it is replacing. Then, if the degree isn't one that implies some acquisition of skills, it really does have the same worth as a high school degree -- A-level, for you -- of old. I expect you do much better with a B.S. in engineering, or other hard sciences, because there's added value: "This person can graduate from college, and design moneymaking product X", vs "This person can graduate from college, and speak at considerable lengths about The Bard." The old high school gig just meant, "This person can graduate from high school". Since talking about Shakespeare normally means nada, it's taken as such.

Just my take on the matter. *shrug*.

[Doctor Setebos]

Which blows for everyone who just got a piece of paper and needs relevant job experience.There's plenty of places to gain experiences. Internships are a fantastic resource that few college students bother with. But I definitely agree with Track. Anytime we're looking to hire someone, the piece of paper may get them in our door for an interview, but we're going to grill them and test them to make sure they can actually do the job before they can ever get signed on to work for the company. Our company's profits depend on having qualified individuals working.

[BigJonno]

Which is why we mainly look at relevant job experience and do testing at our work for hires, rather than focus on a piece of paper they may or may not have earned.

I'm glad that someone does. I've been turned down for so many jobs that I could do in my sleep due to not having a degree or not having done a job that was identical to the job I was applying for for at least three years.

I've only once had the feeling that someone was willing to give me the benefit of the doubt and that was for a trainee AutoCAD technician job that I applied for a few years ago. I already had some experience with AutoCAD and I spent hours making sure my skills were up to scratch. I aced the interview, I only had one problem with the test, which was because someone else had screwed up the settings. The only reason I didn't get the job was that someone else applied with two years experience.

[RandoM51]

Perhaps you're looking at it backwards. It could just as easily be a case of otherwise low-paying jobs starting to require degrees, particularly in the buyer's market that will exist anywhere with relatively high unemployment figures.

[Serapth]

Actually A-levels sound a lot like what we used to have here in Ontario. OAC year, which was an extra year at an advanced grade level only, generally a requirement for university but not college admission.

So far as the value having a OAC year gave someone towards employment, sweet fuck and a pile all. It was only relevant for academics.

Its all moot though as they've fucked the education system up pretty good since I left. You now can't fail grade 9 and it stops at grade 12.

Plus frankly, in most professions, especially unspecialized ones, its a hirers market right now, so they can be choosy and pay less.

[Drayven]

That's always a frustrating point with me. My company is one of those "bachelor's degree required" type places so I guess I'm glad I got in when I did. As someone who doesn't have a degree but has 10+ years actual work experience it's very frustrating to know that my resume is likely getting thrown away at alot of places because I don't have that piece of paper. Now I have to go back to school :(

[Hawkzombie]

I'm a college drop out. What hope is there for me?!?!

...Fuck. Either I need to make it as a writer or I'm stuck at retail middle management forever :p

[iHap]

I in no way qualified for my job, after 2 months i'm still learning but i've been told since i have an aptitude for solving problems my boss has been giving me the harder email tickets.

It's all about Experience and the know how. Apply for jobs you don't qualify and see where it takes you, I did and i have a great position at where i work.

EDIT: I have no College at all and i am a customer service guy who helps fix websites and other products we have. I'd say that's pretty damn good.

[Ox]

Perhaps you're looking at it backwards. It could just as easily be a case of otherwise low-paying jobs starting to require degrees, particularly in the buyer's market that will exist anywhere with relatively high unemployment figures.
Yes, but on the other hand, there are markets for labor, including a market for labor with a bachelor's degree. The market-clearing price for labor with a bachelor degree is whatever your salary would be with a basic BA and no experience.

BigJonno suggests that the market-clearing price used to be higher than it is now, at least in reference to the minimum wage. There are a few possible responses to this:

1. Maybe the minimum wage has risen. It's not necessarily true that a rise in the minimum wage increases the wages of every other sector of the labor market in proportion. Indeed, the purpose of increases in the minimum wage is to reduce inequality: if everyone else's income rises in proportion, then inflation will perfectly offset the rise in the nominal minimum wage and efforts to raise minimum wages are extremely stupid. If you don't think raising the minimum wage is extremely stupid, you would expect the gap between "minimum wage" and "the wage with a BA" to fall as the minimum wage rises.

2. Maybe the supply of BA labor has risen. After all, more people go to college now than in the past, so all other things being equal you'd expect the value of a BA to go down even if the quality of BAs are exactly the same.

3. Maybe the demand for BA labor has fallen. The economy sucks, as BigJonno pointed out. Fewer jobs equal less ability to command high wages.

4. Maybe the quality of BAs has been diluted. In that case, the BA labor market is really multiple markets: the market for labor from people with BAs from mail-order catalogues, the market for labor from people with BAs that require you to be toilet-trained, etc. So really BigJonno is just looking at the wrong market.

5. Maybe low-paying jobs are now requiring BAs. Although that's not an explanation, because it raises the question of why they can require BAs without raising the salary.

6. Maybe this isn't the market-clearing wage for BA labor. Not every participant in a market always gets the market-clearing price on the first try. Ever go on Craigslist and see someone trying to sell some piece of junk for a completely outlandish sum, or someone looking for a babysitter for an infant on short notice for less than minimum wage? Some market participants make insulting offers, either out of some weird negotiation strategy or because they are dumb. Maybe that's what's happening here.

7. Something else that isn't occurring to me right now.

[DeathtollWRX]

I don't have much to add to this topic since I am not degreed myself (is that even a word?)

But, two of my friends and I are in the 75k-100k levels of income.

All of us are in IT.

One is an Exchange Administrator for a financial institution (not a day in college) Hispanic
One is a "Programmer Analyst (dropped out of college) for a software company Caucasian
I am in "technical services" in Healthcare. Asian

My job actually required a bachelors and MSCSE but I had neither.

This all leads me to a few conclusions
1. Almost any and all IT jobs might say they have requirements but if you already have experience and aptitude and the capacity to learn then you are in.
2. College degrees don't really make give you the edge most would hope for in employment
3. Real world experience is as good as any certification or degree.

Obviously these won't carry over into the medical field since that is medicine but I do think it carries over to IT related jobs.

When my manager and I interview potential employees we don't even bother to see what degrees they have or what certifications they may have. It's one thing to study and pass a multiple choice test and it's another thing to solve real world problems. In MY experience many of the people with just the paperwork don't end up being as good as those that practice it on their own... or do it related things as a hobby.

I've only worked in IT my whole life so I don't know what it's like trying to get work as something else. My resume is basically

1. US ARMY
2. IT RELATED
3. IT RELATED
4. IT RELATED
I've only had four jobs my whole life so I probably have a very narrow perception of the labor force.

[Serapth]

Degrees offer a baseline to potential employers. This provides a very easy means of paring down resumes. In the past I have used education level to do exactly this, as frankly when given 80 candidates for one position, you use whatever means possible to winnow down the numbers before you start doing interviews. Generally, I only want to interview 6 or 7 people for a position, at most 10. This means getting rid of about 88% of resumes on "some" criteria.

In the past, I axed any resume with spelling errors first ( sign of laziness ) and possibly grammatic errors, but I was more forgiving in this regard. Next I axed any resume from someone who wasn't able to properly summarize their experiences ( illustrates an inability to prioritize or worse, an ego problem ) down to a minimal number of pages, especially for recent graduates. It blew my mind how many times I saw 5+ page resumes ( not including cover letter ) and my all time favorite, the 26 page resume....

Yet, once such "low hanging fruit" cuts ( probably about half of candidates would traditionally get cut by the piss poor quality of their CV ), then it gets harder. No way in hell I am going to interview 40 candidates for a single position.

This is where you lack of education comes back to fuck you in the ear, hard.

[DeathtollWRX]

This thread needs a poll...

[Ghostbear]

I also work in IT and do not have a degree. I work for a defense contractor so much of my military experience was relevant.

[DeathtollWRX]

I also work in IT and do not have a degree. I work for a defense contractor so much of my military experience was relevant.

Well you are a Mechwarrior...

IT FTW.

[Serapth]

Well you are a Mechwarrior...

IT FTW.

Pish, Ghost Bears whored themselves off to future IKEA dwellers...

[DeathtollWRX]

Pish, Ghost Bears whored themselves off to future IKEA dwellers...

Dude nothing is wrong with flimsy disposable particle board furniture.

[Ghostbear]

Pish, Ghost Bears whored themselves off to future IKEA dwellers...

I see what you did there.

[Serapth]

Dude nothing is wrong with flimsy disposable particle board furniture.

Except when its made by a group of people that make the French seem brave.

// Super uber geek referencing going on right now, most likely only for GhostBear's enjoyment.

[Ghostbear]

Listen, the Ghost Bear Clan progressed further than any other and was the only one to successfully integrate into the Inner Sphere. Rasalhague was improved by the warriors of Tseng and Jorgensson.

[DeathtollWRX]

Except when its made by a group of people that make the French seem brave.

// Super uber geek referencing going on right now, most likely only for GhostBear's enjoyment.

Yeah you guys lost me on the IKEA reference but since I'm using an IKEA desk I thought i'd chime in.

[Inspector Fowler]

It's the "me too" syndrome. At some point people decided that everybody deserved a college education, which is bullshit. If you worked hard in high school and did well on entrance exams, you deserve a chance to go to college where you must again work hard.

That is, simply, not how the system works. I don't know how it works in the UK but in the US colleges are businesses and absolutely have to recruit and retain as many tuition paying students as possible. I had classes I turned in no work for and still passed - how is that possible?

Since you have to have students in to = money in, you pretty much have to start lowering the standards somewhere. I know students who - no shit - sell drugs out of their dorm rooms and are not suspended. I'm not talking sharing a joint with a friend - I mean, they literally have the scale and weigh shit out into little baggies and apparently that doesn't reflect badly enough on the college to remove them. I have a feeling that our student conduct arena is under orders to retain students whenever it is at all possible unless their behavior is physically dangerous (these seem to be the only students removed from the school).

[ShivaX]

Pretty sure its a combination of:

A) Public schools are so worthless now that a high school diploma is meaningless, so it takes at least a 2 year degree to prove you aren't completely retarded

B) Lots of unemployed people who have gone back to school, so that means lots of people looking for jobs with degrees

C) High unemployment gives the edge to people hiring. Why settle for a BA when you can demand an Masters and get one without paying any more?

D) Theres no more "semi-skilled" jobs anymore. Theres minimum wage and theres stuff you need a degree for. You can't go work for some factory cause they outsourced that all to China. Hell you can't answer phones because India does that. So you work at McDonalds or you're a chemical engineer for Pfizer with basically no inbetween.

E) What Fowler said. The value of a degree is dropping as well. Education is about making money more than anything else.

[Ox]

D) Theres no more "semi-skilled" jobs anymore. Theres minimum wage and theres stuff you need a degree for.
That's not really true. There are plenty of semi-skilled jobs that can't be offshored. Massage is a good example: you don't need a BA for that (although it does require some training), and it must be provided locally.

[ShivaX]

That's not really true. There are plenty of semi-skilled jobs that can't be offshored. Massage is a good example: you don't need a BA for that (although it does require some training), and it must be provided locally.

Well sure, but how many can an area really support?

Unlike say... customer service or production which can support an area much larger than the community the facility happens to be in. Plus not many people are going to move long distances for the job.

I mean theres semi-skilled jobs out there, but even those anymore all seem to require college degrees. Hell I'm pretty sure if you want to be a janitor someplace these days you'll need a BA in Custodial Services or something else to even get your foot in the door.

[SilentScreams]

It's really crazy. I've been doing my job for 6 years now and I've been pushing for a management role for the last year and a half, only to be overlooked every time one comes up in favour of somebody with a degree. Never mind the fact that I can do the job and they can't.
The maddening thing is, it doesn't even seem to matter what the degree is. It could be a degree in growing potatoes in your ass crack for all they care.
As a result, our company is overflowing with inept line managers.

[Karmakin]

It's simple supply and demand really. The unemployment rate even for college grads is up. Considering the trajectory that our society/economy is on, it's probably going to stop with wages for many fields, educated and uneducated, being fairly flat. There's just too many people for too few jobs right now. That may change with changing economic fortunes, then again, it may not. (My personal opinion is that we'll see a turnaround with the boomer retirement).

There's the opinion that people just won't "do those jobs" if they don't get the pay they expect, but that's not really realistic. Eventually those people will have to suck it up and take the lower pay. Myself looking for a job I'd gladly take a good job at bad pay, mainly because it beats a bad job at bad pay.

[DeathtollWRX]

It's really crazy. I've been doing my job for 6 years now and I've been pushing for a management role for the last year and a half, only to be overlooked every time one comes up in favour of somebody with a degree. Never mind the fact that I can do the job and they can't.
The maddening thing is, it doesn't even seem to matter what the degree is. It could be a degree in growing potatoes in your ass crack for all they care.
As a result, our company is overflowing with inept line managers.

Well that's really lame. It show's how bad the management currently is. I mean seriously a liberal arts degree is pointless but that will probably help.

Art and Music appreciation? WTH?
Well if you are truly great at what you do someone with a sense will eventually promote you.